I love my DAC Bryston DAC3
DAC Upgrade Advice, budget $5k
Hi All, could anyone who used to own a m2tech Young DAC (any of the revisions) share what they upgraded to next? I thank you in advance for reading this long thread, I have elected to fully explain what music I like and what DACs I have tried so you can fully understand my situation. I am almost at my wit's end.
My budget is $5,000, although I prefer to spend as little as possible and would strongly prefer to buy used.
In my early 30s and I still hear into 16khz~ based on online listening tests.
I currently use a m2tech Young DAC MK. II paired with a HDPlex 200w Linear Power Supply.
The combined pair only costs around $2000 retail price and I paid much less buying used.
The DAC+LPSU represents less than 5% of my entire system cost which leads me to think it is the prime candidate to upgrade. However, it has been really tiring buying DACs only not to like them and having to list and sell them again. If I cannot find a DAC I like within the next 2 iterations, I will probably spend ~$4k upgrading by Aesthetix Tube Pre-amp from the Signature to the Eclipse edition.
I enjoy this combination because it gives me a scary good holographic 3D soundstage with that "wall of sound" perception and it elicits a strong emotional connection from me on tracks featuring female vocals. Yet, the Young DAC does not sacrifice much in other areas despite this mid-range bloom. It is still competent with complex modern electronic dance/house music (Lane 8, Elderbrook etc.) and older classic pop/rock tracks (Eagles Live and Fleetwood Mac Rumours) in terms of separation and microdynamics within the extreme treble and low bass. I would say the weakness of this DAC is that the "width" of the soundstage is not as wide as I like and "edginess" in the final top registers of treble.
My signal chain is as follows: Roon Core running on Intel NUC -> m2tech Young DAC MK. II -> Aesthetix Calypso Signature Edition Tube Pre-amp -> Pass Labs x150.8 -> Focal Scala Evo Utopia. The Intel NUC is optically isolated from the rest of my ethernet network using TP-link Ethernet to Optical converters. The Intel NUC and m2tech Young DAC and TP-Link converters are powered by the HDPlex 200w Linear PSU hence avoiding the use of switching power supplies in the signal chain. My room is a studio apartment 17' x 15'10" with an open corridoor. The front two corners have 2x 11" diameter 3' tall ASC Tube Traps stacked atop each other and the back corners have homemade bass traps. The area immediately behind the speakers and the first reflection points are treated with homemade 2" absorbers. I am unable to treat the ceiling as that would involve drilling into concrete which the building association does not approve of.
I primarily audition new system components with the song "Swallow your Pride by Rhys" to evaluate the strength of female vocals and evaluate the system's ability to deal with the separation of instruments as additional backing tracks are added through out the song. I learnt of this song as it was consistently played by the sales rep at the Axpona 2019 Focal Speakers showroom to demo the Focal Sopra 2s. I also use "Heart Attack by Bronson" to evaluate bass slam, dynamics and microdynamics within the bass. Most of the music I enjoy is decidedly "newer"; 1996 to present day. I do not play vinyl records.
I generally enjoy DACs with an implementation of the Burr Brown PCM1795 DAC chip. I recognize that the implementation of the same DAC chip can vary widely across manufacturers but still feel it is a good frame of reference as a filter for the shortlist of potential DAC upgrades.
The first DAC I owned 7 years ago was the TEAC UD-301 which uses 2xPCM1795 chips, it has a wonderfully liquid, slightly warm, house sound that is hard to fault but also would not win any awards in detail retrieval or separation. I used this DAC for 2 years and its house sound has greatly affected my preferences.
I also auditioned the Musical Fidelity V 90 DAC (single PCM1795) in my system and was shocked how good it sounded for a retail price of $349.
I eventually landed on the m2tech young DAC as it also used a single PCM1795 and represented an overall improvment over the TEAC UD-301 while still retaining the "house sound", especially when its default switching supply was replaced with a linear PSU.
I have tried several DACs costing several times more but I have not found one that beats the Young DAC in all areas convincingly.
Here is a log of what I have tried in a head-to-head comparision to the Young DAC. I always use the USB input connected directly to the Intel NUC for all DACs. All comparisions were done level matched through Room EQ Wizard using the minidsp U-MIK1 calibrated by Cross Spectrum Labs.
Luxman D-03X CD Player with DAC (Retail $3,500) versus Young DAC MK. II
I really wanted to like the Luxman as the Japanese fit and finish were superb, representing the nicest casework of any audio componenent I had ever handled.
Alas, the mid-highs of female vocals was slightly etched and had a metallic quality to them which made it difficult for me to connect emotionally with the songs.
Lampizator Amber 3 (Retail $2,750) versus Young DAC MK. II
A very punchy and exciting sound, which was beguiling for the first 15mins but felt overall a little too much for long listening sessions. Reminded me of an overeager puppy.
Aesthetix Pandora DAC Signature Edition (Retail $9,000) versus Young DAC MK. II
The entire Aesthetix range is famed for their tube output stage which provides an organic presentation with a certain "ease" and excellent separation. I heard all of these things and the separation of individual instruments for older classic rock tracks, which were not always recorded well, was especially good. However, I felt the overall presentation was too "polite" and I could not connect with any of the music, regardless of the genre. I turned the stereo off after 30mins out of boredom.
Aesthetix Romulus CD Player with DAC (Retail $12,000) versus Young DAC MK. II
Even more separation and detail than the Pandora Signature Edition above but equally as boring. I also shut the stereo off after 30mins in this case.
Chord Qutest DAC (Retail $1,695) versus Young DAC MK. II
Very "British-Fi" sound which is great for Pink Floyd and Queen but sounds anemic for every other genre. No bass weight or slam.
Audio-gd Master 11 Singularity (Retail $2,500) versus Young DAC MK. II
This was my first foray into non-oversampling R-2R DACs as the Audio-gd used 4x of the famed Burr Brown PCM1704 chips. The DAC ticked all the right boxes and was technically very competent but was overall too neutral for my tastes. It felt like a NFL or MLB player with the highest scoring stats but could never win a championship.
PSAudio DirectStream DAC (Retail $6,000) versus Young DAC MK. II
I felt the overall presentation was too "soft"; like the singers were wearing masks and the instrument players were wearing gloves, restricting their ability to deliver the full brunt of the emotional response.
Topping D90 (Retail $600) versus Young DAC MK. II
I really wanted to buy into "Objective-Fi" and believe that the DAC with the highest SNR would solve all my problems.
This DAC felt like a cool drink of water. Water is great for health and all but is really not the drink of choice for a Friday evening after a long week of work (which is typically when I listen to my stereo). Very neutral sounding but presented a much narrower soundstage than the Young DAC. It felt like the musicians moved from a concert venue to a small studio recording room which was much too little cramped for everyone.
Denafrips ARES II (Retail $750) versus Young DAC MK. II
The ARES II is a competent DAC with a separation and soundstage that is as good, if not better than the Young DAC. I can see why the Denafrips house sound has such a large following. Overall, it prioritized detail retrieval above all else which made for a fatiguing presentation to me and was just not my cup of tea.
Once again, thank you for reading this long thread. I welcome all and any recommendations.
My budget is $5,000, although I prefer to spend as little as possible and would strongly prefer to buy used.
In my early 30s and I still hear into 16khz~ based on online listening tests.
I currently use a m2tech Young DAC MK. II paired with a HDPlex 200w Linear Power Supply.
The combined pair only costs around $2000 retail price and I paid much less buying used.
The DAC+LPSU represents less than 5% of my entire system cost which leads me to think it is the prime candidate to upgrade. However, it has been really tiring buying DACs only not to like them and having to list and sell them again. If I cannot find a DAC I like within the next 2 iterations, I will probably spend ~$4k upgrading by Aesthetix Tube Pre-amp from the Signature to the Eclipse edition.
I enjoy this combination because it gives me a scary good holographic 3D soundstage with that "wall of sound" perception and it elicits a strong emotional connection from me on tracks featuring female vocals. Yet, the Young DAC does not sacrifice much in other areas despite this mid-range bloom. It is still competent with complex modern electronic dance/house music (Lane 8, Elderbrook etc.) and older classic pop/rock tracks (Eagles Live and Fleetwood Mac Rumours) in terms of separation and microdynamics within the extreme treble and low bass. I would say the weakness of this DAC is that the "width" of the soundstage is not as wide as I like and "edginess" in the final top registers of treble.
My signal chain is as follows: Roon Core running on Intel NUC -> m2tech Young DAC MK. II -> Aesthetix Calypso Signature Edition Tube Pre-amp -> Pass Labs x150.8 -> Focal Scala Evo Utopia. The Intel NUC is optically isolated from the rest of my ethernet network using TP-link Ethernet to Optical converters. The Intel NUC and m2tech Young DAC and TP-Link converters are powered by the HDPlex 200w Linear PSU hence avoiding the use of switching power supplies in the signal chain. My room is a studio apartment 17' x 15'10" with an open corridoor. The front two corners have 2x 11" diameter 3' tall ASC Tube Traps stacked atop each other and the back corners have homemade bass traps. The area immediately behind the speakers and the first reflection points are treated with homemade 2" absorbers. I am unable to treat the ceiling as that would involve drilling into concrete which the building association does not approve of.
I primarily audition new system components with the song "Swallow your Pride by Rhys" to evaluate the strength of female vocals and evaluate the system's ability to deal with the separation of instruments as additional backing tracks are added through out the song. I learnt of this song as it was consistently played by the sales rep at the Axpona 2019 Focal Speakers showroom to demo the Focal Sopra 2s. I also use "Heart Attack by Bronson" to evaluate bass slam, dynamics and microdynamics within the bass. Most of the music I enjoy is decidedly "newer"; 1996 to present day. I do not play vinyl records.
I generally enjoy DACs with an implementation of the Burr Brown PCM1795 DAC chip. I recognize that the implementation of the same DAC chip can vary widely across manufacturers but still feel it is a good frame of reference as a filter for the shortlist of potential DAC upgrades.
The first DAC I owned 7 years ago was the TEAC UD-301 which uses 2xPCM1795 chips, it has a wonderfully liquid, slightly warm, house sound that is hard to fault but also would not win any awards in detail retrieval or separation. I used this DAC for 2 years and its house sound has greatly affected my preferences.
I also auditioned the Musical Fidelity V 90 DAC (single PCM1795) in my system and was shocked how good it sounded for a retail price of $349.
I eventually landed on the m2tech young DAC as it also used a single PCM1795 and represented an overall improvment over the TEAC UD-301 while still retaining the "house sound", especially when its default switching supply was replaced with a linear PSU.
I have tried several DACs costing several times more but I have not found one that beats the Young DAC in all areas convincingly.
Here is a log of what I have tried in a head-to-head comparision to the Young DAC. I always use the USB input connected directly to the Intel NUC for all DACs. All comparisions were done level matched through Room EQ Wizard using the minidsp U-MIK1 calibrated by Cross Spectrum Labs.
Luxman D-03X CD Player with DAC (Retail $3,500) versus Young DAC MK. II
I really wanted to like the Luxman as the Japanese fit and finish were superb, representing the nicest casework of any audio componenent I had ever handled.
Alas, the mid-highs of female vocals was slightly etched and had a metallic quality to them which made it difficult for me to connect emotionally with the songs.
Lampizator Amber 3 (Retail $2,750) versus Young DAC MK. II
A very punchy and exciting sound, which was beguiling for the first 15mins but felt overall a little too much for long listening sessions. Reminded me of an overeager puppy.
Aesthetix Pandora DAC Signature Edition (Retail $9,000) versus Young DAC MK. II
The entire Aesthetix range is famed for their tube output stage which provides an organic presentation with a certain "ease" and excellent separation. I heard all of these things and the separation of individual instruments for older classic rock tracks, which were not always recorded well, was especially good. However, I felt the overall presentation was too "polite" and I could not connect with any of the music, regardless of the genre. I turned the stereo off after 30mins out of boredom.
Aesthetix Romulus CD Player with DAC (Retail $12,000) versus Young DAC MK. II
Even more separation and detail than the Pandora Signature Edition above but equally as boring. I also shut the stereo off after 30mins in this case.
Chord Qutest DAC (Retail $1,695) versus Young DAC MK. II
Very "British-Fi" sound which is great for Pink Floyd and Queen but sounds anemic for every other genre. No bass weight or slam.
Audio-gd Master 11 Singularity (Retail $2,500) versus Young DAC MK. II
This was my first foray into non-oversampling R-2R DACs as the Audio-gd used 4x of the famed Burr Brown PCM1704 chips. The DAC ticked all the right boxes and was technically very competent but was overall too neutral for my tastes. It felt like a NFL or MLB player with the highest scoring stats but could never win a championship.
PSAudio DirectStream DAC (Retail $6,000) versus Young DAC MK. II
I felt the overall presentation was too "soft"; like the singers were wearing masks and the instrument players were wearing gloves, restricting their ability to deliver the full brunt of the emotional response.
Topping D90 (Retail $600) versus Young DAC MK. II
I really wanted to buy into "Objective-Fi" and believe that the DAC with the highest SNR would solve all my problems.
This DAC felt like a cool drink of water. Water is great for health and all but is really not the drink of choice for a Friday evening after a long week of work (which is typically when I listen to my stereo). Very neutral sounding but presented a much narrower soundstage than the Young DAC. It felt like the musicians moved from a concert venue to a small studio recording room which was much too little cramped for everyone.
Denafrips ARES II (Retail $750) versus Young DAC MK. II
The ARES II is a competent DAC with a separation and soundstage that is as good, if not better than the Young DAC. I can see why the Denafrips house sound has such a large following. Overall, it prioritized detail retrieval above all else which made for a fatiguing presentation to me and was just not my cup of tea.
Once again, thank you for reading this long thread. I welcome all and any recommendations.
21 responses Add your response
Give the Gustard X26 Pro a demo (you can return it). Seller is also excellent. GUSTARD X26 PRO Full Decoding ES9038Pro*2 Chip DSD512 Bluetooth 5.0 X (shenzhenaudio.com) Here is a review. The One to Beat: Gustard X26 PRO DAC Review (soundnews.net) BTW - I have the Topping D90se on another system and the Gustard is very different from the Topping. A much warmer sound and slightly less detailed. |
It sounds like you like your present DAC a lot, except for: "the "width" of the soundstage is not as wide as I like and "edginess" in the final top registers of treble." That was a bit buried in your post. Others have a much more experience than I do, but I'll tell you the DAC's I've seen mentioned repeatedly which might address the deficiencies you name as Audio Mirror Tubador and the MHDT Orchid. Another DAC people mention with high praise is the Mojo. Here's one with a massive discount: https://www.mojo-audio.com/used-mystique-v3-dac/ Good luck! |
So, I am not familiar with the DAC you have. I get exactly what you are saying regarding bass slam with the Qutest. The TT2 is better, but is still inferior to other DACs in the range in terms of bass but is very musical and engaging. My hunch is that you might find the Audiobyte HydraVox intriguing. It will win awards for detail retrieval but is not overly bright. If has a bigger soundstage compared to the TT2 but is maybe not as crisp as Chord. You might also consider the Rockna Wavelight. It is not as detailed as the Audiobyte but has a bigger soundstage. Yet it still has good detail retrieval. Both will be below your budget target of $5K and are phenomenal. The Bricasti M3 is above your budget a $5500 and when you add in network card and remote, way above your budget if you need those features. |
Definitely look at the DACs higher up the Denafrips line as you seem to like a lot about the Ares, and their more expensive models may well fill in the gaps you found in the Ares while expanding further on its strengths. Along the same lines the Musician Aquarius would also be worth a look, and the Mojo mentioned by @hilde45 above is an absolute stellar DAC and looks to be quite a bargain at that reduced price. Just a few ideas, and best of luck. |
the Mojo mentioned by @hilde45 above is an absolute stellar DAC and looks to be quite a bargain at that reduced price. +1 on trying the $3500 Factory reconditioned Mystique v3 DAC. I purchased the balanced version of it last year after purchasing a Bricasti M3 and a few other DACs (only the D90 matches with your current list). It was by far my favorite of the bunch and I've sold off the other DACs and continue to be impressed by the Mystique. Like you I run Roon on a NUC with fiber in the path to my streamer (Bricasti M5); I also use a Pass amp (X250.8 at the time of my DAC trials, but now use an XA30.8). |
Hi OP, I am uncharacteristically going to recommend something I haven't heard. I have 2 DACs which due to downsizing would like to replace with a more modern one. After much research I finally bought a Mojo Audio Mystique V3 from Benjamin after I emailed him. My question to him was how would this compare to my faithful Wadia 15 that plays redbook only and no hi-res which I do not miss. I have a Bryston DAC too which plays about everything but hardly ever use it. Let me just say on redbook, I have heard nothing beat my ancient Wadia. Benjamin explained by return mail that his focus is on power supply, eschewing all non essentials. I need no convincing on the importance of a solid power supply and to this end he employs a bunch of chokes which is technology from about 100 years ago! Visit his site for more info. He mentioned other points to consider like no coupling caps in the output stage. Plus other important differences The V3 is scarce and becomes available only when taken in trade on a newer unit. I paid $3500 and expect to receive it about the end of October. He has the new EVO models available at a higher price. Perhaps send him an email. |
You might consider a Modwright Elyse DAC, which is a transformer-coupled tube DAC with two 6922 signal tubes and a GZ34 power supply rectifier tube {there’s good flexibility for use of alternate (equivalent) tube models}. It uses the PCM1794 chip, though I’m not sure how that compares with the PCM1795 chip you mentioned you like. A couple of weaknesses of the DAC are its defunct (Win10) USB interface (which you can readily get past that with a separate digital interface), and it’s not DSD-compatible. If you can get past those flaws, there’s MUCH to enjoy with this great unit: 1) its dynamics are notable, I assume from the fantastic power supply design 2) it presents a wide soundstage that’s coupled with an intense center focus (such as with vocals), and 3) because of the weaknesses I mentioned, it tends to run fairly cheap when you can find one (~$2000, with an original list in ~2014 of ~$7000) For the price, I think you and others would be very pleased with the sound if tube is your thing and you can live without DSD... |
Stgrim: nice system , add some pictures? how does Focal and the Pass Labs sound for bass slam? Anyway, you appear to like smooth highs and bass slam in your dac one that is not mentioned, lately is Exogal Comet I have the Chord & like it for bass have you played with its filters ? I found upsampling with roon , to DSD really opened up the bass I have listened to the Lampizator at a friends & Agee on its vividness Good luck jeff |
