@mintakax
I don’t have firsthand experience, but for what it’s worth, the T+A is often mentioned as particularly good for DSD. Why not take advantage of an opportunity to demo it?
BTW, I also listen with the H390’s internal DAC and enjoy it quite a bit. In fact, I just auditioned a DAC that lists for $10,000 and I preferred the Hegel’s DAC. It was not a subtle difference, either. I’m definitely not suggesting the Hegel’s DAC can't be bested, but spending more is, in and of itself, is no guarantee of increased listening pleasure. As you are undoubtedly aware, there are a variety of factors at play.
|
Thank you for telling of your experience with the H390. I am trying to avoid the idea that spending more equals improvement. I think I will demo the T+A soon.
|
I see this as a bilateral problem. The H390’s DAC is respectable but can be improved upon. However, improvements to your server/streaming setup may provide greater impact. Let me attempt to explain. Your budget will permit purchasing a near world class preowned DAC that coverts native DSD such as a DCS Bartok, Bricasti M1, AR DAC 9, and the Mola Mola Tambaqui, as will as the T&A you mentioned. The latter two are may favs and I went with the Tambaqui. All have a different SQ so you need to read the press and audition to determine which suits your taste. All will be an improvement in detail, timbre, dynamics, staging, imaging, etc., but you will need to determine is the level of change justifies the spend. It is MHO that you may get a more significant change going to a dedicated server/streamer like a preowned Grimm or Aurender. The Grimm and Aurender W20SE are selling slightly over your spend cap, but a new Aurender N200 or preowned N20 are in the middle of your range and will give improvements by reducing digital glare and improving timbre, dynamics, staging and imaging over your current server/streamer setup. My recommendation is to explore both options, a DAC change and a server/streamer change and choose the one you feel provides greater improvement. I will give one more option, a preowned Aurender N100H with a preowned Tambaqui or DAC 9 will be just at your limit and the combination will probably provide all the improvements you seek.
|
@mintakax
I am trying to avoid the idea that spending more equals improvement.
To clarify, I didn't say it wouldn't -- just that it's not guaranteed. Only one way to find out.
|
Thank you jsalerno277-
Funny you mention it. A server is in my upgrade plans, I thought an external DAC may provide a larger improvement so considered doing that first. The server will happen either way eventually. And if the DAC is a Tambaqui, it will definitely be pre-owned :).
|
@mintakax
My experience: About four years ago, I purchase the phenomenal Hegel H590 integrated amp, which I had no intentions of using it’s internal DAC (I heard it’s internal DAC at the dealers). Like yourself, I’m also space restrained. After further research, to save space, I decided that I wanted a streaming DAC. My budget for a DAC (pre-owned) was approx. $5000-$7000. I was aware of several excellent DAC options out there on the market, but I had on way of gaining access to all of them. I started my search by first visiting my local high end audio stores and listening to what they had available for in-store auditioning. I even traveled some distance to be able to audition other brands that were unavailable at my local audio dealers. In the end, it came down to two choices, the dCS Bartok streaming DAC, and the Ayre Acoustics QX-5 Twenty streaming DAC. I chose the Ayre Acoustics streaming DAC (best value) and never looked back. Note: I couldn’t get any of the dears to let me borrow any of the DACs for in-home auditioning, so it was absolutely critical that I made the extra effort to do the extensive in-store auditioning that I did. I’m extremely happy with the choice I made. Happy listening.
|
Thanks kennymacc. I agree, it's very hard to get in home auditions anymore and buying pre-owned is a crap shoot and waste of time if the equipment isn't satisfactory. Upgrading audio is not as much fun as it used to be :)
|
@mintakax ,
For the price you have mentioned, T+A would be the best choice for a DAC that can do pure DSD. Especially because you use Rood to upsample everything to DSD 256. Try to audition that and see if you like it. Hope you get to audition a "burned in" unit, rather than a fresh one.
|
I was finally able to utilize the I2s connection on my DAC (a relatively inexpensive Gustard X26Pro, which is well engineered) by adding their DDC, the U18 (also pretty reasonably priced). I have a high end system which is mainly focused on vinyl playback but wanted to up my game on the digital front without throwing a lot of money at it. The digital front end is far less $ than my vinyl playback set up but with DSD through the I2S connection using these modest components, is quite impressive- I'm hearing far more of the acoustic space in recordings, the attack and decay of harmonics, the drum skin sounds- none of which sounds clinical. I had a long, perhaps unjustified reluctance to use digital for anything other than work or background music but now this is listenable. Of course, I've spent a few dollars buying hi-res downloads, but it has added an additional dimension to my listening experience.
Do the T+A hdmi ports support I2S?
|
A used PS Audio DAC is a bargain. I found it to be musical. When I upgraded to a Tambaqui I A/B’d them with a friend and he found them very close in sound as I had. Good luck with your upgrade.
|
I have a Sonore UltraRendu and have played native DSD files through two DACS. The album I have listened to most is Puente Celeste - Nama. My previous setup was a Denafrips Pontus II with the Denafrips Iris DDC. The sound was amazing and very live sounding. I recently upgraded to a Lampizator Atlantic TRP and DSD through that is next level. Much wider and deeper soundstage. LIke the musicians are here in the room with me. For that DAC, it uses tubes and you can tube roll to dial in the sound you like best.
|
If I could afford one, the T+A 200 Dac would be what I would be looking at. Like yourself, I have tons of DSD files (Sacd rips, Downloads, etc). My topping dac does do native DSD and there is a big difference vs a Dac that converts to PCM. Even at the lower tier...so I can only imagine what the higher tier Dacs bring
|
Thanks to all so far for the responses, much appreciated.
milpai-- yes, the burning in issue is PIA if they send you a brand new unit which you only have for a week!
cdennison53-- I live in Boulder and PS Audio is a short car ride away, they have a good return policy, and I may try one. I think they have a refurbished MK2 available.
whart-- I dont believe the T+A supports i2s, no mention of it in manual. For me, the jury is still out on i2s as being an improvement over usb. I've not had a chance to use it myself.
pwoodard922 -- I've been listening to DSD since I owned an MSB Discrete DAC several years ago. I have quite a collection from ripped SACDs (DSD64) and purchases form nativedsd.com and Bluecoast music.
|
Thanks aberyclark, I'm definitely going to audition a T+A. Hopefully next week or so.
|
My digital front end is a SGC i9 based optical server to an Optical Rendu to a Holo May KTE.
The May is extraordinary. I have tried using both I2s and USB, the USB was better to my ears.
My digital front end has undergone many changes over the last 7 years, one thing I can say for sure, is that up-sampling or DSD conversion is done much better on a server that is designed for it rather than the DAC.
In your case, the iMac Pro has the same issue the Mac laptops have, which is interference from the display (the laptops are even worse). If you really must use a Mac, you will be better served getting yourself a Mac Mini. Better yet is something running a Linux distro (no, I am not a Linux fanboy) meant for audio. One of my iterations before my current set up was using Daphile, and it was very good. I suggest rolling up a Daphile server on an old PC and test driving it before you change your DAC. You can still use Roon with it.
Roon is a pretty decent music player, but Daphile is far and away better. Better yet is to use HQPlayer Embedded (which is what I use now). Daphile is painless to set up, combined with Roon, you get a very good music player that will compete with anything. Setting up a Linux server with HQPlayer Embedded is no simple task, and only a few commercial servers are sold with full support for it. The learning curve with HQPlayer is not very steep, the issue is the plethora of options means you will spend months switching between things until you figure out the best combo - not much different than tweaking speaker positions.
Small Green Computer sells a number of servers, all of which can run HQPlayer. I went with the i9 server so I could do big DSD conversion.
If I had to do it again, I would not bother, I have found I prefer a mild up-sampling of 4x with a 20bit depth as the sweet spot in my system which can be easily done with an i3 processor. Sometimes I switch to DSD 512, and I am awed for a couple hours at the "clarity and airyness,’ but then I start to find it fatiguing. I can listen to 192/20 all day.
One last comment about DACs that people do not consider enough.
Pay attention to the output voltage, it can limit you on what preamp you want to use. The May (and many other expensive modern DACs) output about 5v instead of the traditional 2.4v. This will cause major crosstalk issues with gear with poorly designed and outdated circuit boards (the Carey preamps are a fine example of poor design and worse customer support). Many tube amps will not be able to behave well with a 5v input. Most SS preamps will be OK with it.
A higher output voltage on the DAC greatly reduces the noise floor, so it is good from that end, but it means that you need to either use a low gain preamp, or reduce the output at the server side which has a direct impact on bit depth vs noise floor.
After several years of trial and error, I wound up using a Levinson 523 preamp. The output level on the May was a real issue for me, I wanted a tube preamp and had trouble finding one that fit my system and could handle the voltage.
|
I have Hegel 590, Magico A3 and the T+A DAC 200. The T+A is definitely better than the Hegel built-in DAC. However I only use it for PCM because it’s too much hassle to play DSD. I’m using Innuos for streaming Qobuz and I’d need to buy a powerful computer to utilize the DSD feature. I did download 1 DSD album (from a high rez site) onto a thumb drive and downloaded it into the Innuos and determined, to my ear, the difference is not worth the extra effort and expense.
|
@mintakax
By the way, I did end up saving $$$ buy purchasing a pre-owned unit from a reliable, certified dealer. Happy listening
|
I demoed the T+A and the Tambaqui i went with the Mola Mola
|
The Weiss 501 MK2 was also a great DAC to demo.
|
Less known in the US, but Métronome Le Dac 2, handmade in France, is a really, really good DAC with DSD 64 to 512. Soundwise, reviewers who did the comparison, prefer it above the T+A 200. Not cheap, but within your price bracket. I love mine.
|
Has anyone tried the Meitner MA3 converts all music to DSD…was thinking it would be a good match for my horn speakers…from what I have heard it calms them down a tad…
|
The Tambaqui holds some benefits for your situation. If you buy used, you can probably sell it quickly if it doesn’t work for you. Most of the used ones are in very good condition because of how light/small they are (i.e., easy to pack/unpack, position, and ship) and because of the protective flight case they ship in.
I recommend getting Sonore’s ultraDigital ($500 @small green) so you can take advantage of the Tambaqui’s I2S input. I owned a Tambaqui and found it to sound just about perfect. I sold mine because I preferred the (slightly colored) sound of my NOS R2R DACs, but I don’t stream DSD. I have not heard a T+A DAC but they have a good reputation and a strong following. Good luck.
|
@mitch2
did the tambaqui sound a little bright?
|
@joshua43214-- thanks for the detailed write up. The SGCI9 is on my future list for sure, mainly for the direct optical connection to the Rendu. I wish that connection was available in their I5 line. Perhaps I'll take up HQplayer some day but doubt I'll be doing anything complex.
@xwfalcon--thanks, I can demo the T+A and I can return the pre-owned Tambaqui if its not for me, but they will charge 5% restocking.
@victor and @stievus-- thanks for the recos, I will check them out.
@mitch2-- what did you replace Tambaqui with?
|
@hysteve- Thank you, can you elaborate on "However I only use it for PCM because it’s too much hassle to play DSD. I’m using Innuos for streaming Qobuz and I’d need to buy a powerful computer to utilize the DSD feature"
Do you mean to convert PCM to DSD upstream of DAC as opposed to just having local DSD files (from ripped SACDs or purchase)?
|
@joshua43214-- I just found out that the optical connection has been removed from the SGC SonicTransporter I9. From Andrew at SGC:
"We removed the fiber network connection from the sonicTransporter i9. We found using the latest version of our Ethernet switch or an opticalModule sounds a bit better"
In that case a ST I5 is probably what I will buy.
|
@silverfoxvtx1800 - I really had no issue with the Tambaqui and I could certainly understand why so many enjoy it in their systems. I perceived it as being super clean but not bright or etched. It displayed good power and good extension in the high frequencies while providing well-defined, impactful bass. Comparatively, my NOS R2R DACs seem more expressive in the midrange frequencies, more full-sounding but just as powerful in the low frequencies, and provide a bit more tonal color and body, IMO. If somebody said those NOS DACs are not as strictly faithful to the source, I wouldn’t argue as I suspect the Tambaqui is very faithful to the source. Unfortunately, I did not own the ultraDigital at the same time I had the Tambaqui and so I was unable to feed it through its I2S input, which I was told by a dealer is superior to the other inputs (just their opinion).
@mintakax - Ultimately, I decided to stick with the Mojo Audio NOS R2R DACs that I already owned - the Mystique EVO Pro (mine had the special AD1862Z chips) and the Mystique X SE NCZ (designating nano-crystalline chokes and 1862Z chips). I later added a Merason DAC1 MkII, which was also a very nice sounding DAC and smooth/refined but slightly less enjoyable to me than my Mojo Audio DACs. At this time, I still have the Mystique X SE NCZ, but have sold the EVO PRO and the Merason, and I have been pondering where I might go from here while still sticking with NOS R2R topology DACs (i.e., totaldac, MSB, CAD 1543, others?).
You can read my thoughts about comparisons between several DACs in this thread.
|
+1 @xwfalcon @mitch2 on the Tambaqui. It is excellent and has a very stable resale price. It is very resolving but not bright, and benefits from a good steamer. I think OP can improve things by eliminating the Macbook Pro vs a dedicated streamer. Computers run so much other functions they are noisy. I am no an optical fan either, preferring a good switch with LPS . I found the Grimm MU1 a perfect match for the Tambaqui, and it runs Roon Core, so that eliminated a bunch of stuff vs my old Ron Nucleus. However, I am not sure the Grimm is optimized for DSD, as it excels in its upsampling of lower resolution files. But on the plus side, it really makes non DSD files sound great. I also recommend the Auralic Aries with the Tambaqui. I had an Aurender N20 in for a spell, but did not choose it.
|
@fastfreight i havr Lumin U2 for a streamer and with the Tambaqui I am very happy with my digital side of the system so much so I need to upgrade analog side as it has fallen behind
|
@mitch2-- Thank you. I am impressed with your knowledge and experience regarding DACs.
@fasrfreight-- Thanks, I just purchased the Optical Rendu a few weeks ago, mainly because the Hegel H390 had a low res network input (DSD64 only) and the Rendu would permit me to use the USB input. There seemed to be a pretty noticeable improvement in the SQ and I've been happy with it. My Roon Core is on an iMac Pro, not a MacBook Pro and the only app running on is the Roon Core. Nonetheless, I agree that a dedicated server would be an improvement. I could go the SGC SonicTransport route but I'm just not feeling that. I know a lot of people are happy with the ST/OR combo. In researching other servers or server/streamer devices, I'm finding the OR to be redundant and its inclusion seems to limit the choices for dedicated servers. Yet, the idea of abandoning it so soon after buying is disagreeable. Can you or anyone recommend a server (other than SGC ST) that would improve the digital front end as well as make use of the OR? What about an Innuos Zen Mini MK3 ? Also, what is it about optical that causes you not to be a fan?
|
@mintakax,
I think of all the DACs mentioned above, the T+A, the Holo May and Mola Mola would be the ones to check out. I was ready to pay $$$ to those DACs that bring uniqueness to the table. I don't think you will be disappointed at any of these 3 DACs. I know most people will say - it is the implementation that matters - good for for them
|
Hi @mintakax, fair questions! Like many, (and you) I tried several things to optimize and clean up my digital. I did try an optical interface early on, but the rest of my system was also not great back then. For me, it was getting an M12 switch from JCAT with and Optimo LPS that was a major leap up. So I eliminated the optical, and I eliminated the Ether Regen, and focused on high quality ethernet cables with the switch. Today I have two good switches in series, the JCAT M12 Gold and a GTT DeJitterit Switch X. Together they sound better than either one alone.
As for the computer, I formerly used a Mac Mini, with everything turned off I could to avoid extraneous programs. It was good, as I am sure your Mac is. But a dedicated streamer will probably add favorably. Everyone likes the one they are familiar with, and whose software (or Roon) the enjoy. I agree with that! When I first got my Tambaqui, I was sure I was done. No dedicated streamer. But when I added the Aries, it got much better.
Take care!
|
One needs to consider the nature of their system to decide what is the best DAC for it. For example, my office system is now on the warm side with the Schitt Mjolnir v3 preamp and Schitt Wotan amp. I used the Schitt Yggi+ LIM DAC in my prior office setup which was a brighter system. With the current system the rolled off LIM is rather mushy; so, today I am using my ’too hot on top" Benchmark DAC3B on this new warm system and it sounds really good. No need to change anything,
@mintakax
Nonetheless, I agree that a dedicated server would be an improvement.
I have 3 OpticalRendu’s and these things are rather good. The beauty of the Rendu’s is that you do not need to keep the computer near the audio gear, like you would with a dedicated server. In fact, your computer (I have a cheap DELL) should be as good as a dedicated server if you are using fiber just before the DAC. Which you are with the OpticalRendu. The fibre acts as a MOAT against the analog gremlins that a dedicated server has also been optimized for, but at a high $$ cost.
BTW - Just an FYI there is a thread by the dealer verdantaudio (sp?) where he is now testing the latest $40K Linn DAC. This DAC can input a fibre SFP directly on the DAC. No need to use USB via an OpticalRendu. You may find it interesting and realize how good your Rendu’s are because you are doing almost the same thing.
BTW2 - my best DAC is the Schitt Yggi+ OG which you cannot buy anymore, and I will never sell. It is similar to the 5x more expensive Mola Mola Tambaqui. Mike Moffat at Schitt is a very experienced DAC designer. This summer they are coming out with the next version of the Yggi+. I am going to send my LIM DAC to get upgraded. I must say I do not like the LIM anymore. It was purposely rolled off on top and I got fooled into buying it. I think the next Yggi+ could be great.
Edit: Oops, did not see the requirement for DSD. Forget the Yggi+ then. I play DSD using the incredible D.BOB ($600 - $800) and my Benchmark DAC3B
GeerFab Audio - GeerFab
|
I am unclear after reading the thread here as to whether or not the OP DAC in the Hegel does native DSD without a PCM conversion.
I haven’t heard the DAC in the Hegel so I can’t comment from experience . However if it doesn’t do native DSD and since the OP stated that “84%” of his listening is native DSD, then I would get a DAC that does native DSD . Why gaff around with putting so much emphasis into obtaining DSD files and then not want to optimize the experience?
fwiw I have had FACs that do native DSD and ones that do PCM conversions. I always prefer the straight unadulterated delivery. However we are talking about that last little bit of excellence
|
@mintakax , since you live in Colorado, The Music Room would be another retail option. They have a buy it - try it program; so, you'd avoid the out-of-pocket shipping costs on anything that you tried and didn't like.
FWIW, the PS Audio DAC was designed to get the best performance from DSD thru the use of an I2S input./output.
|
From my experience, the Mola Mola Tambaqui will be your biggest bang for the buck. You've already got Roon, which is essential. In order to take full advantage (full resolution) of DSD files you'll need to go into the Tambaqui with USB. The Tambaqui does sound great however with AES/EBU and S/PDIF.
|
@mintakax
Precisely, I don’t have a DSD library.
|
Thanks everyone for all your helpful advice! Hopefully I'll be able to make a move late next week. If the pre-owned Tambaqui is still available, I'll probably start there and post the results.
|
I've had Parsound, Pro-Ject and have settled on Benchmark DAC3. The DAC3 has some unique technology, an astounding SN ratio, and just sounds right.
"In most D/A conversion systems, intersample peaks cause overloading of the upsampling interpolators and digital filters that are found in all sigma-delta converters. When overloads occur, bursts of non-harmonic distortion are produced. These bursts of high-frequency distortion may occur many times per second and may add a false brightness and harshness to the sound. This defect impacts PCM formats but does not impact 1-bit DSD formats. The absence of intersample clipping may explain some people's preference for DSD. The DAC3 delivers clean PCM conversion that meets or exceeds the clarity of DSD."
|
I agree with @pwoodard922 a used Lampizator is what you are asking for:
"My hope is for more resolution, more musicality, less high frequency fatigue, tighter bass."
If you can find a DHT model like the Big7 or Goldengate it ticks all your boxes.
My DAC path was first a Schitt Yggdrasil to a W4S DAC2 DSD SE to a Denafrips Terminator to a TerminatorPlus (with IRIS) to a Lampizator Goldengate which I sent back to Poland for the Engine11P upgrade which was a huge leap of faith because I did not think the DAC could be improved but I was very wrong. Its been over a year and I can't imagine ever moving on from the Lampizator.
I was pretty happy (I thought) with the TerminatorPlus and bought the Goldengate on a bit of a whim (that's Freudian for a subconscious doubt of my happiness) and I'm glad I listened to my doubts.
I'll write it again, it ticks all the boxes you are looking for and more.
|
@mintakax I have a HEGEL H160 in a second system and when I added an inexpensive Schiit Audio Bitfrost DAC, it made a clear improvement. It was very impressive. I’m not suggesting you buy a Bitfrost DAC, I’m just answering your question, would an external DAC make an improvement in your system? It did in my system. I have an integrated amp in my main system and I bought a used MSB Discrete DAC with (2) power supplies for $7.5k. You did mention this particular MSB DAC and questioned the price. I understand that and that’s why I bought it used and it made a big improvement over the Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE DAC that I had, which was very nice as well.
It would be nice if you had a dealer loan you a DAC to demo at home. In my experience, the components I’ve demoed at home sounded better than they did at the dealer.
It’s a fun journey in this hifi game!
|
@mintakax The advice you have received is all excellent. I was in a similar position and looked at several of the ones recommended here. I found the Tambaqui less 'musical' than I wanted, but it was nearly my choice. The T+A 200 was another almost choice. It was not as detailed as I desired. I did not try to the PS Audio because I had the Mk. 1 and I did not like how the software upgrades changed the DAC profile. The Chord Dave with the M-Scaler was way too bright. I wanted to try the Weiss 501, but could not find one I could test in my system, other than from The Music Room and I had just returned another item. I really did not want to try it and return it.
I ended up with the Bricasti M1S2 which I did buy from the Music Room. I tried the earlier model in my system (M1SE from a friend) and loved it. The M1S2 was even better. What I especially like about it are the filter options. One option sounds just like the Chord Dave and another like the Tambaqui. I find I do change the filter depending the choice of music. It is like having multiple high end DACs all in one unit.
The Streamer option is a big choice. I went with Innuos, but may be looking elsewhere down the road.
|
Try the Bricasti M21 DAC. It has multiple paths for conversion to analog including 1-bit DSD. Here is a link to the literature
|
I have the Mola Mola Tambaqi as part of a Makua and when I use Roon, I convert all files to either DSD 64 or 128. The MM particularly loves DSD files. @fastfreight has done a lot of work on this so I would give his thoughts extra weight. But I would say that it is critical for you to get a different streamer. I have a Nucleus + with external LPS power supply and also an Innuos Zenith SE. I find the Innuos both in “Sense” mode and in “Roon” mode to be superior to the Nucleus. I also have an M12 gold switch. I have a friend who has an Innuos Phoenix Net and another that has the Nordost QNet. All do a good job. My advice to you is get the Tambaqi but also know that you will need to get the Mac out of the system. In the past, I have used iMac mini, Aurender, Nucleus and 2 different Innuos (Zen mini w. LPS and the SE). I am a big believer in the Innuos line although I have not had the chance to put a Grimm in the system, I suspect that combination is outside of your budget. Good luck!
|
@tonyrox-- Thanks for the DSD info, very interesting. I do prefer DSD and now I have an explanation :)
@rikkipuu- Thanks, I'll bet the Goldengate is awesome, that's definitely the prettiest DAC I've ever see in a picture, Wow!
@dbt- I sold an MSB Discrete with two power supplies to TMR a few years ago! I really liked it, but I dont think I would buy one again, it would just remind me of the loss I took on the one I had :). Its a great DAC though and handled DSD very well I thought.
@thriftyaudio- Thanks for sharing your DAC journey. I'm demoing a T+A 200, it arrives in two days. I hear a lot of positives on the Bricasti DACs.
@bigby-- Thanks for that link. I'm going to check it out. I know a Bricasti dealer that may let me demo an M21, but at this point a new one is too much coin.
@psnnyder149-- Interesting what you say about a streamer. I just picked up an Aurender N200 today to demo for a week. It is the dealers demo unit so is well broken in. I was going to try the N20 but passed for a couple of reasons. I've been listening to the N200 for a couple of hours, playing DSD files that I put on a SSD internal to the unit. . I very much like the idea (and sound) of playing the DSD files straight from the internal drive. I also have a T+A 200 coming in two days to demo.The N200 sounds great connected (USB) to the Hegel H390 DAC and regardless of any DAC demos, I'll probably buy the N200 and listen to the DSD files directly using the Aurender Conductor app, which is not as convenient or deep as Roon, but it gets the job done. The N200 is a Roon endpoint so I can still stream when I want and live with what ever degradation the network adds. Only downside is the Sonore Optical Rendu has become unnecessary and I'll have to sell it as my trial period has come to an end.
|
