No need to apologize for loving your gear!
I'd never heard of the amps and always enjoy reading about anything new that's carefully made. Whatever you think about 6moons, you've got to appreciate the concerted effort to show internals and discuss design decisions. At least there's some objective information there to learn from and use to supplement the usual subjective adjectives. |
@cal3713 thanks for pointing out the typo! I should've checked it.
@stephendunn I'll keep you posted as I make progress on the room treatment. I'm trying to be minimalist about it because the room has to double as a living room so I don't want to overwhelm the space with audio gear (though I probably lost that battle already...). The main issue is that the room has 10' ceilings and big windows so there's quite a bit of high frequency ringing in addition to the usual low/mid boominess. I put a 6' piece of homasote board on one large, empty wall which helped calm things down. Also I bought a few pieces of 4" thick rock wool insulation to experiment. Last night I put pieces of the insulation at the first reflection points and that made a noticeable and positive difference, more so than in the back corners, but it also felt a bit overdamped to me. So I can see the point of products like the Stillpoints Apertures that do a mix of absorption and diffusion.
btw I didn't mean to sound too fanboyish in my previous post - just thought the EHTs deserve a mention and i'd love to hear from anyone else who has experience with them. They're the only Thoress amps I've heard and they're the kind of component that just has an certain "rightness" about the sound. |
@jollytinker I'd be interested in hearing about your room treatments. I have a smallish room and have been researching same. Thanks.
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@jollytinker,
Congratulations on your excellent outcome. I recall reading the 6 Moons review of the Thoress amplifier. No doubt about Srajan Ebaen's admiration for the unit.
Charles |
Great info Jolly. Ive dealt with Audio Arts in NYC (Thoress dealer) before and Gideon is a pleasure to do business with. I might just have to inquire about the F2A11 or 845 Thoress Integrateds.....not a 300B kind of guy.
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I've been trying out a new pair of Nenuphars for about a week now and I'm mighty impressed. I'll chime in more as I find the words to describe what I'm hearing. I'll just mention for now that I'm powering the Nenuphars with a pair of Thoress EHT mono blocks. These amps are somewhat under the radar (they're pricey and don't seem to have much retail support in the US) but Ebaen reviewed them at 6moons in combination with the Nenuphars and used some striking language to describe the pairing. He rates the EHTs as a better match for the Cubes than the FW SIT1 monos. http://https//6moons.com/audioreview_articles/thoress2/ FWIW I can see what he's talking about. I compared the EHTs with a SIT3 and found the difference to be profound (much as I love the SIT3). For now I'm still working on getting speaker placement and room treatments dialed in (at 20 sq meters my room is at the bottom end of the range for these speakers as specified by Cube Audio). so, more to come. Thanks to all here for a refreshingly good thread! |
Additional info on the Valvet E2SE
Please give the SE version PLENTY of time to break in. Several hundred hours or more, at least. This is from experience.
I had already listed mine for sale and made a deal when that magical moment arrived. I did not want to break my promise but will consider replacing it when the time is right.
I don't know how it will pair on the Core Audio speakers but it is an absolutely wonderful and amazing amp.
The new owner is ecstatic. |
And most critically for the objectivist "it's all in your head" crowd, the change was contrary to the previously developed preferences and expectations.
Sure, you could also blame a bad mood at the time of testing, but in line with Charles' sentiment, it's clear that our ears are meant for hearing and they do a wonderful job. (Despite the constant biasing influence of extra-auditory factors) |
Stephen,
What you discovered makes sense. Your two different speaker cables could have relative meaningful differences in their gauge, resistance and capacitance. These variables could definitely affect/ impact the total amount of the damping factor (DF). The final DF value factors in speaker impedance and speaker cable contributions (And obviously amplifier output impedance) . Just goes to show how valuable our ears are. You clearly heard a change.
Charles |
This is an amber alert regarding using resistors between positive side of speaker cables and the VR L2iSE output terminals. I just removed my Dueland 1ohm resistors--put in place to lower dampen factor--and realized a big jump in sound quality, specifically in the highs which improved imaging, depth and detail. This was not a subtle change. When I originally installed the resistors I was using Synergistic Foundation speaker cables and the improvements the resistors made was tangible, easy to hear. But when I replaced those cables with Shunyata Alpha NR2 cables I simply installed them with the resistors assuming the same benefits would apply. I was very wrong. For whatever reason, the Alpha's increased resistance, the different technology Shunyata uses, whatever, the resistors actually hurt the SQ. So vinpic and others who might be considering using resistors in this manner, please be aware that the improvement may heavily depend on the type of speaker cable you are using. When I installed the Alpha speaker cables at first with the resistors I heard so many changes/improvements that I didn't think to try them without the resistors. I only removed them now out of simple curiosity to be able to talk about their benefits.
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If not returnable, you could cut the threaded section. If it is an insert, you can remove it and use the adhesive disc (which will cover the insert hole). |
@david_ten ok I get it. I bought the threaded ones, oops. Thanks. |
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@david_ten So did you just wrap the adhesive discs around the hemisphere threads and insert? I have the hemispheres but haven't installed and still using the stock rubber bumpers. Where did you get the discs? Thanks. |
@abd1 I went with the unthreaded version of these: https://edensoundaudio.com/shop/hemispike-extra-large/I used commercial / industrial grade double sided adhesive discs. I have not had any slippage. The bottom rear cabinet area can be drilled, but it is tricky and there is a chance one may damage/crack the finish. |
@david_ten how did you install the rear brass bumpers on your Cubes? Did you have to install threaded inserts? Thanks |
@vinpic,
Agree with David that favorable comparison to the Ypsiplon is high praise. Valvet amplifiers are consistently well regarded.
Charles |
@vinpic Thanks for the update. Comparing it to the Ypsilon Phaeton says a lot!
Valvet’s AE4s are on my radar to explore / experience a higher watt and solid state pairing for the Nenuphars; and to serve as a ’book end’ in terms of differences from my 2A3 amps.
Looking forward to your updates as you run the E2SEs in. |
The Valvet E2se arrived last night. It’s still in early run-in mode but it’s potential with the Nenuphars it’s clear and exciting. Despite it’s 12W/8ohms rating it punches above its weight and features quite a stunning ‘presence’, reminding me the type of drive & authority that the likes of the Ypsilon Phaeton are capable of. More in a couple of weeks after proper run-in but I thought you’d appreciate the update. |
Thank you Stephen. I love the Elrog tubes but do most of my VR listening with the TAK300B (probably due to system tuning/preference). Keep us posted on your Linlai experience...
The VR is amazing at driving my Lawrence Audio Double Bass or Albedo Aptica but for the Nenuphars my poison of choice is the SIT3 or the Bakoon. Look forward to experiment with the resistors on ...
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vinpic Vinnie suggested the jantzen-audio 1.0-ohm audio grade superes resistor (bought from Parts ConneXion) which I initially installed by fastening one of its wires to the positive WBT speaker posts on my L2i-SE with the other end of wire wrapped around banana plugs of positive speaker cables. We agreed that the banana plug connection needed to be improved, so I bought two WBT terminals, the resistor wire now being screwed down securely with the banana plugs inserted into the WBT. At the suggestion of someone--I can't remember--I changed out the janzten audio resistors for a pair of 1RO +/-5% 10W Silver/Graphite Dueland resistors which provided the deep satisfaction of having spent more $ and improving aesthetics but to little if any noticeable improvement in SQ over the janzten resistors. Someone else said that the top of the line Mundorf resistor would be even better but I haven't pursued that possibility. FWIW my L2i-SE runs Elrog 300b tubes as its DHTs. I have been superbly happy with these, but just to scratch the phantom itch have ordered Linlai 2A3 tubes (on back order), which beat out Srajan's preferred tube in his VR L2 pre amp. Although the VR L2i-SE was handily my preference over the SIT-3 and SIT-1 amplifiers with my Nenuphars based on overall SQ and likeness to live music, it has the added benefit of playing better at low volumes than the two First Watters. I'm wondering if you've noticed this too? Maybe has to do with increased power? Don't know enough about the chemistry of what makes a good low volume amp/speaker set up.
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@vinpic If memory serves, I think you are one of the first to post ownership experience with the Nenuphar Monitors in combination with a Cube Audio Sub.
The comparative perspective coming from the standard Nenuphars is really cool and significant, as is your varied experience with some excellent amplifier pairings. I'm looking forward to the results with your inbound Valvet amp.
Thanks for sharing your setup and what's been working and preferred by you. Great information for those following this thread. - David.
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@paullb Paul, you are welcome! Richard( @toetapaudio ) may be able to help out with more information on Bakoon. He is a Bakoon dealer and has the most experience, among those posting here, pairing it with the Cube Audio line. |
@stephendunn
Keen to try your resistor solution for the VR L2iSE. Can you pls share model of resistor Vinnie recommended, how to install, any precautions etc. If you could add a photo that would be great. Thx! |
@david_ten,
Thanks for asking. Yes, pretty much, especially when stephen dunn chimed in and said that his Vinny Rossi integrated sounded even better when he put resistors into lower the damping factor. Still curious about the Bakoon. I have not been able to find a figure on the web for its damping factor, but it's unique Satri circuit could have something to do with it. Seems like low damping factor is a good rule of thumb, though there may always be outliers.
Paul
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@vinpic,
Thank you for your reply, I now more clearly understand the passive Icon replacing the Vinnie Rossi active DHT Line stage. The analogy comparing the Bakoon13R and S.I.T.3 is very effective and clarifies their different sonic presentations.
Very interested in your listening impression of the incoming Valvet amplifier. I saw elsewhere on this forum you’ve had the Ypsilon integrated amplifier. You have certainly had/heard your share of really fine quality audio equipment. Sound Kaos? Nice! I look forward to reading more of your posts.
Charles |
Thanks Riaa. It’s on his way... 🎶
My Sound|Kaos Vox3a are lined up for the Valvet, will also try it on the Nenuphars and revert with thoughts. |
Vinpic, Just a Heads up concerning Valvet. Some prefer the Original 2 over the SE model. Original is suppose to be sweeter. I probably made a mistake myself ditching the 1st one before listening to it to get the upgrade. The SE will run you around 4K...you can get the regular used for about 1200. Just something to consider and potentially save some dough |
I love what the VR does to the sound (particularly with the TAK300B valves) but now that my Nenuphars + subwoofer setup needs an active crossover to work at its best I tend to use the Icon. Bakoon vs SIT3 ... for me it’s like comparing a great bottle of Barbaresco vs Bourgogne. The Bakoon is faster, fizzier, more joyful. The SIT3 is more studious, lush with a great legato between the notes. I like to alternate depending on mood.
I will receive the Valvet E2se later this week and will revert with impressions
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@vinpic,
Do you prefer the Bakoon13R over the S.I.T. 3 driving the Nenuphars?
Charles |
@vinpic,
Congratulations!
I haven’t come across Nenuphar owners complaining about the bass reproduction but I’m sure yours is exactly as you describe with the Cube Audio subwoofer. You find the passive Icon preferable to the Vinnie Rossi DHT linestage? That unit gets nothing but universal raves (And well deserved to my understanding).
I’m happy for your successful results.
Charles |
Referring to whatsbestforum.com the audio forums specifically.
Charles |
OK I'll bite... "over at WBT" ? What is this forum? |
Great speakers & great post. I exchanged my Nenuphars for a pair of Nenuphars monitors 10” + 1 Cube Audio Sub 12” (placed in the center, facing the listening position). To make things sweeter (thanks to Srajan) I got an Icon passive preamp with an active crossover (40hz high pass for the monitors, full range for the Sub which already has a very effective DSP). It’s a massive upgrade: bass is to die for (deep, elegant, no blooming) but as surprisingly the medium/highs have got a new life (more defined, larger soundstage, extraordinary separation). Srajan says this is due to the much easier job the mains amp has + less heating of the speaker coils. System: Grimm MU1 + Mola Mola Tambaqui + SIT3 / Bakoon amp13r / VR L2iSE with TAK300B
I am reducing my large amplifiers stock and am selling my 1-year old VR L2iSE with dac/phono (9 years warranty left) |
Prof,
If you ever have the opportunity to hear the Nenuphars in a well set up system I’d like to read your thoughts. I’ve enjoyed and appreciate your listening impressions posted this site.
Charles |
charles,
Yes I'm aware of that, which is one reason I'm so curious to hear the Cube Audio speakers. And that is why I found it surprising that the "lowther" signature including the upper mid/lower treble peak on vocal sibilance etc, seemed to be there in numerous youtube demos (where it's not there in many others). Not saying it would sound that way in person well set up, but it seems to come through on the videos.
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Agree with David, no Lowther “shout”.
Plenty of bass slam with Bakoon 13R. I have some recordings of percussion groups which clearly demonstrate this.
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Hi @ prof,
Ironically the owners of the Nenuphars and professional reviewers point out it’s the ’lack’ of a "Lowther" shout/signature that draws them to the speakers (Amongst other sonic characteristics). It seems that actual listening experiences may be the vital factor that shapes an impression
Charles |
@debjit_g There are so many factors in play. In other words, guidance and results may (and will) differ and vary. Speaker positioning is a deliberate art form. You will be rewarded immensely by getting it ’right’ with respect to the Nenuphar and your room. In your case, you also have the amplifier pairing in play. The person who helped me set them up described the "interface" as being "eutectic" with the room. [Search for Eutectic Composition and Point]. I found the ’descriptor / concept’ very helpful in moving my understanding forward. My room is 19 by 26 with non-symmetrical aspects. For example, from my seating position, there is a large ’doorway’ in the front right corner and a very large pass through into the kitchen in line from my right shoulder all the way to the right back of the room. Perspective is from the listening position, facing my speakers. For reference, here is a link to more information on my room: https://audio-system-details.blogspot.com/As for the amplifier, I’m beyond pleased with the synergy and performance via my 2A3 amps and their 3.5 watts per channel. I’ve invested in pushing the 2A3 envelope even further with a custom build which is under construction. This new build is focused on maximizing sound quality (not power) so 3 watts or slightly less in terms of max power output. |
@paullb Paul, did Charles' response address your question? Let us know. |
@ricardoosusa Regarding your room size...it's also important to consider the type of room you have. Can you share more specific details beyond the size (14X18)?
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I've spent my recent free time on motorcycle research, demos, etc. Time to catch up on the thread! @ricardoosusa PM me if you would like to connect over the phone. There are a lot of questions in your post and it will be much more efficient to cover them over a phone. So the Nenuphars seems to me like a great option to an all tube system. Being someone who doesn’t like complex systems and much prefer simplicity and short path to signal, no subwoofer its a must for me. The questions I have would be, how good are the high frequency? Describe if possible. How good is bass on a medium room say 14 x 18 ? Is it deep and able to energize it ? At what volumes? Do they play fast and accurately when demanded? Do they present a neutral and balanced sound or lean towards other spectrums? I appreciate if owners report in with valuable insight of these marvels of modern sound reproduction. |
The Cube Audio speakers really intrigue me.
That said, I find it interesting that in almost every youtube video demo of the speakers, it seems like the lowther character comes through, a sort of thinness with a peaky upper frequency highlighting vocal sibilance.
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debjit_g
I have a similar room to yours but mine is 15' x 20' with an 9ft ceiling, speakers 8ft apart, that opens to a kitchen on the left, and sit 8.5 ft from the Nenuphars. I have the FW SIT-1 and the Ayon Audio Odin III amps. I had better bass moving the speakers closer to the back wall with 5 degree toe-in. I recently added the Stillpoints Aperatures to the side walls which made the greatest impact in the bass when using the FW SIT-1 (I haven't swapped in the Ayon for a while). The lower damping factor and dual mono amps on the SIT-1 as compared to the SIT-3 might also have an impact. |
Yep, horses for courses indeed. In the 6 Moons Nenuphar review I believe that Srajan Ebaen put the speakers further from the front wall for improved sound quality.
Charles |
@charles1dad yes, I had corresponded with David a while back and I vaguely remember he mentioned his room is large and open at the back (instead of front in my case). I am not sure if its still the case though. It would be interesting to get David's opinion.
I think he also mentioned that he has pulled out the speaker into the room quiet a bit. I do the same as I am accustomed to pulling out speakers way into the room with my Acoustic Zen Crescendo MkII and find the Nenuphars has the best balance. On the contrary Jon suggests 12-18" from the front wall but it just doesn’t work for me as the sound becomes way too aggressive. So horses for courses, I guess :-) |
@ debjit_g,
Absolutely agree that the listening room space and its acoustic character is vitally important and influential. I don’t want to speak for David (He’s eminently capable of doing so himself) . His listening space isn’t small and he has two far more powerful amplifiers in his home. He says without any doubt that the 3.5 watt 2A3 SET mono blocks are the best sounding match. But again, your situation may present key differences. David chime in😊.
Charles |
@charles1dad thanks for your thoughts.
I forgot to mention earlier that I also tested a Class D IcePower 1200AS2 amp that I had laying around just to double check what I am hearing with the LM and the results are same - this amp also opened up the bass performance tremendously as did the LM over the SIT-3. The IcePower lacks the refinement and highs are rolled off which is expected of this amp but the bass slam, heft and depth was all there. This amp is 1200watts into 4Ohms. Not that the Nenuphars (or any moderately efficient) speaker would remotely need this kind of power but this was an eye opener to say the least.
I was actually planning on getting a Tektron 2A3/50/300B integrated but this whole thing has now put a wrench and now I am not sure if I will land in the same boat as the SIT-3.
As you say (and I also read from various places), that low powered amps has been quiet successful in paring with the Nenuphar but do we know their listening environment and can safely conclude that it works quiet well under all circumstances ? Maybe not. It probably shows that the listening environment might be equally important in choosing the right amp ?
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@debjit_g,
There’s been sufficient evidence posted here and elsewhere that people have had much success with low power amplifiers paired with the Nenuphars. However everyone must rely on their personal experiences and circumstances.
The Line Magnetic 805 SET gets consistent high praise and seems to be an excellent amplifier for many listeners. In your situation given your direct exposure with both amps, the Line Magnetic is the better choice for your room environment.
I believe that in general Jon’s advice is accurate regarding the S.I.T. 3 . You have to decide based on what you’ve heard in your home space. Stephendunn had the S.I.T. 3 but found better results with his Vinnie Rossi integrated amplifier. Individual circumstances dictate outcomes. The OP David gets superb results using a 2a3 SET, so it just depends on numerous factors.
Charles |
