I started a discussion here this morning to get some feedback on whether an external DAC would make an appreciable improvement over an internal processor’s DAC. During the discussion, I said that I typically visit a local audio dealer, to experience the equipment and then, comparison shop to find the best deal. The particular dealer I was referring to, emails me weekly, sends postcards monthly and catalogs quarterly. It’s always with an invitation to “see and hear the difference”. So I visit, and occasionally buy some small ticket items. But, when it comes to spending thousands on nationally available equipment, I don’t feel any obligation to limit my shopping to that one location.
When I shared my buying habits with the forum, I received responses that said using any brick and mortar stores to demo and then buying elsewhere “cuzz” it’s cheaper is just plain wrong…
I was surprised at that statement. I’m a value oriented person. I enjoy quality items. But I search for them at the best price - is that wrong? If there’s no competitive pricing or added value, why should I feel obligated?
Bill, would you like to name those dealers in New York area that you mentioned ? When they start charging fees for audition, I'll go listen to a few pieces. But I would expect them to be quiet and not challenge me, this could be hazardous to their mental health.
I feel sad that the OP is not willing to acknowledge there is an incurred cost to the local store when they share their time and expertise. He places no value on this so is not willing to pay a slightly elevated price following proper negotiation for new products. Is the cost going to be the same as the lowest online? No! Did the online seller offer their time and expertise or only act as a shipping depot for a box they handled for a short time. So we steal the audition time and store’s expertise and reward the online package handler. In addition then he expects warranty service and setup advice from a company who he has already obsconded with the unrenumerated value of their time and targeted marketing dollars. I fail to see how people think this is a good and proper scenario.
When I first got into this hobby almost 50 yrs ago now, what I really wanted deep down was not to be advised by a manufacturer or dealer or publication on what was "the best" for a given topic. I really didn’t want or could afford the best at the time. What I wanted was to eventually uncover all the secrets I could **for myself**...never mind what someone else thought was great. Heck, I had ears, I knew most things in audio might just come down to taste...what makes someone else’s tastes better than mine?? I just wanted come to **understand** audio as best I could, not fall into the trap so much of what others, who didn’t necessarily know what I wanted, might, or might not, think I wanted. I sorta wanted to cut out the middle man, as it were. But, I felt **entitled** to that line of approach IF I maintained a true willingness to try to uncover that knowledge for myself...to do the work, talk to people who might have more knowledge than me and see what they say, buy some things, experiment, learn to read between the lines with ads and reviews, to try to learn at all opportunities and to try think about what I was doing as a learning process...no matter how long it might take me. A lifelong journey and all that.
And I Certainly did my share of listening at place A and buying at place B, back in the day. But, the world has changed. Now not as many b&m stores are left. The internet has changed the landscape and many of us and many a retailer has had to adapt and change along with the times.
If there were still b&m stores everywhere, then everyone would likely still be shopping that way...and choosing for themselves how they might like to approach dealing with those establishments. But, it’s a bit different now...and more consumers are perhaps caught between the rock and the hard place of nowhere to audition.
You can say that I’m not loyal or moral about it or whatever and I’m fine with that I think, but the way I look at it, I only have so much money. I can’t support every establishment I’ve ever visited. I don’t do that with non-audio stores. If you have that kind of money to work with, then I honestly might salute you, but for me, with audio, I’m either spending that money on myself or I’m just giving it away. When I want to give my money away (and sometimes I do) I just look for a good charity and call it a day. I can’t save the world and everyone in it.
Don’t take something without giving something of equal value in return
If you visit a dealer, and take his time, and profit from it (knowledge is profit) with the goal of then taking that profit and using it to further profit elsewhere and give nothing in return, then yes, you are breaking a commonly held ethical standard.
There are, of course, those who proclaim that tipping is taxation, but never tell the wait staff that before ordering.
There is no moral issue here. The OP is not behaving unethically. He is under no obligation to abide by someone else’s personal code of conduct and anyone suggesting that he is does not have any basis for it in my opinion.
But there is a problem with doing this: Your local dealer folds and goes away. Then it is your loss and his loss.
I used to have the opinion that it was just good competition to get the best price I could no matter what.
Then one day in a totally different hobby I lowballed a local dealer into giving me a price on an item that I could have gotten for less from a big internet provider. He came close enough that I bought from him. I felt good about buying local and getting a decent price.
A good bit later I learned that his business was struggling and barely hanging on and it occurred to me how much I would lose if he was gone.
And if you haven’t noticed small specialized business are dying and almost non-existent. At first it was the big box stores and Wally-marts. Then it was online sales.
Bottom line is, if you value having a local provider then you better do business with him even if it costs you more. That is pretty much my mantra these days. But it isn’t a moral or ethical issue at all.
Here’s the thing as far as dealers are concerned: if you find one that can provide the gear you like, provides service, support, loaners, takes trade-ins and will work with you, you should treasure them. I have had a couple of long term relationships with dealers when I was located in New York and they served me well. There is some value in that, and that is worth paying a few dollars more-- you need an odd part? Help on trouble shooting? Want to try a piece of gear at home before you commit? In the long run, you may actually be better served by that (and find it more cost-effective) than price shopping for each item to save a few bucks. However, it is up to the dealer to be able to meet this kind of service level, and it’s not common. If you find such a dealer, you’ll probably want to continue to do business with them purely out of self-interest.
After spending 50 years in commissioned sales, and the last 40 years before retiring in residential real estate sales, my skin is about three feet thick.
Imagine showing a very picky couple over 60 homes over a two month period, only to have them walk into someone else's open house and buying directly from that agent because the agent told them he/she would kick back a point of the commission to them.
I personally think that you are fine doing what you are doing as long as you ask the brick and mortar store to price match. If they wont then that is on them and their business practices.
I think we all know that the price is not really the price on just about anything. There is always room to negotiate.
Why pay $25k for CLX Arts when another dealer is will to sell them for $15k. Cost to the dealer is only about $13k. So if a dealer wants to move equipment they will be aggressive and make money. If a consumer wants the next best piece in the chain in the search for SOTA they should be conservative and thrifty because the next SOTA piece is just around the corner.
The last new car I bought I researched what I wanted and looked up the best price in my area for the model I was looking for. When it got down to the " hard " negotiating the salesman did the usual figuring on his paper and showed me his price but when I was ready to respond I hesitated looking sort of silly. The salesman just smiled and said we have the internet too. B&M stores better get with the program or go the way of the buggy whip.
I cannot say I condone the practice of using a dealers time to test some equipment already knowing I am going to be buying it elsewhere at a lower price. So I try not to do so,helps in my location as we have no dealers who carry any product I have interest in.
But this is just the same as I see people do in Best buy for past few years, handle the goods, check out specs etc. Then buy from Amazon.....
We all would like our money to stretch forever but principles should still hold high.
@jdjones51 I'm never without my iPhone or iPad. So whenever a salesperson tells me a price, I compare it online and ask if they'll match the listing price.
I am not guilty. I never audition unless I consider buying from them. Since I don't usually buy new even on-line, I cut myself off. It's not about dealers, I don't care about them, it's about myself maintaining high style, as I see it. However, my 'audiophile instinct' appears to be quite good, so far I haven't made big mistakes buying equipment unheard.
I am guilty of this behavior, myself, but I buy used as I cannot afford to buy the equipment I want new. However, when I can buy new, I will always use my dealer to make a purchase. B
“If you moved from one coast to the other, would you really feel hesitant to ask for support from the nearest dealer?“
No, but if I lived there and bought it mail order from somewhere else to save a few bucks without giving them a chance to make a sale, I would be embarrassed to ask them for service.
This is a very simple buyer/seller relationship. As the buyer, my only obligation is to pay for the goods or services a seller is offering. It’s the seller’s obligation to do everything in their power to persuade me to do that. If they don’t, I move on.
As to support - if they are an authorized dealer, I’d expect them to offer service regardless of where a product was purchased. They are representatives the brand. If you moved from one coast to the other, would you really feel hesitant to ask for support from the nearest dealer?
Personally I don’t think so. Unless you are systematically wasting their time, they should be glad they have you coming into their store. If they won’t negotiate, and cannot convince you to buy something from them, they are bad salespersons and shouldn’t even be running a high end audio business in the first place.
You should feel obligated because you used their services and bought elsewhere. At the very least you should discuss pricing with the dealer to see if they can give you a break on the price if the market warrants. I hope you don’t look to the dealer for any sort of support because they are a dealer for the product you bought elsewhere.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
