Do I need to insert a stereo preamp between a volume controlled dac
(chord tt2) and an amp? No. From a specifications point of view, modern solid state preamps with normal input impedances (25K or higher) are a proper electrical match. Impact to sq? Depends on the pre and DAC. The biggest issue I’ve had has been that a static charge caused the DAC to jump to 100% volume, something a real preamp would never do. I’ve had a Parasound preamp in the chain, and in that case the sound quality was better going straight to the amp. With my current setup I can’t hear a difference. Some report significant improvements with a preamp. Best, E |
I'm running my Lumin X1 direct to my mono blocks. Sounds way better than when I had a preamp in the chain.
ozzy |
I connect Dave and HMS to Line Magnetic 508 pre input.
Thus I control the volume through Dave remote.
It is working well.
But I have Schitt Freya pre between Dave and my headhone amps to connect 20 ft balanced cables. |
I used to run my PS Audio DirectStream directly into my PS Audio M700's and it worked great. I've since then traded in my Stellar Amplifiers for a Balance Audio Technology VK50-SE feeding two Orchard Audio STARKRIMSON Amplifiers and two ICE Power ASP-1000 Amps inside a pair of KEF 105/3's.
The Preamp did make an improvement in overall soundstage/clarity but the DSSr. on it's is no slouch. People have paired it with the BHK Preamplifier and heard improvements.
YMMV |
Have looked into a Barrett preamp $9k which shuts down tubes while doing ht bypass. Barrett may be a great box and only 2 tubes and other fancy circuitry that avoids need for more tubes. but more tubes would seem better.
Absolutely insane why tubes in a great preamp like arc or many others, can’t be designed to allow shutdown during ht use. Sooooooo stupid. Sooooooo many users would love this.
so I may have to live with more frequent tube changing and higher electricity costs to have a great tube preamp all ready to go at a moments notice.
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" Absolutely insane why tubes in a great preamp like arc or many others, can’t be designed to allow shutdown during ht use. Sooooooo stupid. Sooooooo many users would love this. "
Really, if soooooo many users were clamoring for this don’t you think they would do it. The market for stereo preamps isn’t for home theater. Give it a rest
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As with so many of such questions, the answer is: "It depends..."
1) If the DAC uses digital means to volume control (bit stripping) it is of course possible - but particularly at lower volumes, the SQ is affected negatively.
2) If the DAC volume control is of top quality *analogue* design (and how many actually are?), it becomes a question of how much better a/any preamp's volume control AND overall design implementation is.
Starting with a very clean powersupply, a volume control (not really by potentiometers), sealed relay source switching, plus a separate or well screaned power supply etc.
3) If such a preamp is used, the general finding is, that the inclusion of such, using reasonable good IC's connecting the lot, the result in the cases I know of, including my own, will result in higher SQ.
M. 🇿🇦
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I run my Monarchy NM24 direct to the LTA Z10 amp; sounds better than with an additional pre-amp. |
I experienced big improvement in SQ when my Teac NT-505 was connected to Modwright LS-100 preamp rather than straight to the amp connection. |
Modwright looks good.
Can tubes be off during ht bypass?
thanks
just read in manual that ht input can only be enabled via front panel and not remote. Seems really odd.
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No, tubes can’t be off during ht bypass on LS-100. Since I don’t use the ht bypass at all I’m ok with ht bypass function on the front panel only. Otherwise it’s cool to have remote and trigger functions on LS-100... lot of high end preamps don’t have those functions at all. |
@shkong78
I connect Dave and HMS to Line Magnetic 508 pre input....It is working well....But I have Schitt Freya pre between Dave and my headhone amps to connect 20 ft balanced cables. The Freya seems like a well-designed, simple preamp to provide high quality volume control with buffering or gain as needed between a DAC and a preamp. I understand why you would use it to drive 20 ft interconnects. Have you tried using it in your other system before the Line Magnetic 508 to compare whether it improves the sound vs. DAC-direct? I am curious because I previously thought I needed a buffer between my volume controlled Metrum Adagio DAC and my amplifiers but this weekend I rearranged my system so the DAC is close enough to the amplifiers that I can use 1M (XLR) interconnects. At this length, it seems the buffer may not be needed for the same level of dynamics and tone although I am still evaluating. |
Connecting a DAC directly to an amp?
The very best: Using my MSB Discrete R2R dac's digital domain volume control direct into most of the power amps I have, sounds so much more transparent, detailed and dynamic, than any active preamp (tube or SS), even passive Second best: If the gain of the power amp is too high, and the dac digital volume has to be turned down too low (and starts to bit strip), it's then left full up volume and a passive pre used. Third Best: Active preamps. Cheers George |
I use a nobsound volume controller and it is more transparent than my Cary tube preamp. I would use the Cary if I wanted more tube sound although I find the ss amp to sound more natural. I'm quite surprised at how much better cd's have been with a nice sounding IC. Much less of that digital glare and more vinyl like. |
This is like groundhog day for me. After going a week running my DAC directly into my amplifiers using relatively short 1M interconnect cables, I continued rearranging my system layout and reintroduced my buffer/preamp between the DAC and my amps and.....Shazam! Technicolor! Better soundstage depth, better body, deeper tone, more impactful and deeper bass, and a more realistic and less electronic presentation.
It seems this happens every time I try to go without my preamp/buffer. Maybe it is my SMc monos, which have input impedance of only 10K ohms, but it was also like this with my former Clayton amplifiers (but maybe not as profound an improvement), which had input impedance of 100K ohms.
The other thing I did was replace my well-regarded Oyaide power cords with 7 awg NOS Western Electric cords and wow, an immediately noticeable kick in the pants. The amps are 650 wpc and are each run from their own 20A dedicated circuit. Going from 10 awg to 7 awg made a substantial sonic improvement. I don't typically notice huge improvements from cables and tweaks but this one was substantial. |
It seems this happens every time I try to go without my preamp/buffer. Maybe it is my SMc monos, which have input impedance of only 10K ohms
Can't tar everything with the same brush, with this 10k input. 10k is a very low input impedance, there's no need for it these days, as things have problems diving it. 47k or higher is the industry standard, some tube amps like Rogue M120 mono were up to 1000k!!! (1mohm) But if your source output stage is weak and maybe cap coupled (which could be too small with 10k) it's the problem, not because your going direct. Cheers George |
With many of the newer high bit DACs (e.g. 32 bit) and depending on the input sensitivity of the amp (typically about 26 dB), and with about 12 dB attenuation per bit, even with the typical maximum 24 bits for most hi rez formats, one would most likely still have an abundance of bits available to negate the concern of bit stripping.
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It’s not a 32bit ESS dac it’s a NOS R2R dac so yes even "bit stripping" could have been the biggest factor as well now you’ve bought it up, with 4v!!! output because of volume being set too low. His amps only need 1.2v for full output!! From the manual total gain setting switches of the output V at full volume which he probably didn’t open it up to do . Attenuation switches: Depending the input sensitivity of the used power amplifier the output of the Adagio can be reduced with -10dB. Cheers George |
My bad!. I was thinking in terms of the typical, not the OPs specifics.
Never mind🥺 |
Guys,
The Adagio does not bit strip, the volume control operates by changing the reference voltage so is not actually in the signal path. The minus 10dB is optioned by a switch on the back and I do not have that engaged. I am hearing the same thing I heard when comparing the same gear DAC direct vs. through the preamp/buffer into my Clayton M300s, which had an input impedance of 100K ohms.
We could argue about whether I should hear it or not, or whether it is because of the amps, but it doesn't change what I consistently hear. To be clear, the sound of the Adagio directly into the amps is really good, but it sounds better through the buffer/preamp first.
The input impedance of the amplifiers is just another example of why it is important to understand your gear and how it all has to work together.
Regardless of the input impedance, the amps are the best I have owned/heard out of some very well regarded amps such as Lamm M1.2 Reference, Clayton M300s, Heron M1As, and Acoustic Imagery NC1200 amps. Virtually any active buffer or preamp will have a low enough output impedance to easily drive those amplifiers - a small price to pay for the best sound I have heard in my room. |
George, I thought Chord used FPGAs. |
George, I thought Chord used FPGAs. His is the NOS R2R Metrum Adagio And if the vc is "not in the signal path", then it’s either in the digital domain, or horror if it’s changing the output stages feed back, to control the volume up or down, as then the vc sonics will have different characteristic as to where it’s set with the amount of feedback applied. . The minus 10dB is optioned by a switch on the back and I do not have that engaged. Maybe you should and try direct again. Or we go back to my first explanation of 10k is a very low input impedance, there’s no need for it these days, as things have problems diving it. 47k or higher is the industry standard, some tube amps like Rogue M120 mono were up to 1000k!!! (1mohm) But if your source output stage is weak and maybe cap coupled (which could be too small with 10k) it’s the problem, not because your going direct. Cheers George |
This is getting confusing (and my previous post didn’t help); the OP, “emerging soul” is using a Chord tt2. “mitch2” is using an Adagio. |
This is getting sooo damn complex for my tiny mind. Very very and maybe toooo techie |
emergingsoul OP
This is getting sooo damn complex for my tiny mind. Very very and maybe toooo techie
To put it simply, your Chord Dac using the remote variable volume output from it’s line outputs, gives over 5volts!!!! at full volume. This is more than enough for any amps on the market. Use it direct into your amp and forget about buying a preamp, save the money and get sound that more transparent/dynamic/uncoloured in the process. Cheers George |
Looking at a modwright ls300 tube preamp. Hard to plug dac directly into amp when I have an avr. Only use for streaming.
tube preamp allows ease of functionality between avr and preamp. |
tube preamp allows ease of functionality between avr and preamp. WHAT!!! If you can use a tube preamp between the dac and amp, then you can use the dac direct and use it’s volume control without the tube preamp. Which is your thread title "Connecting a DAC directly to an amp?" Cheers George |
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These switches look really good and credible. Don’t look like they can be controlled via remote.
so if I only stream, need for a preamp seems totally unnecessary if using a switch. Vast complexity and expense and value and need for a preamp has never been fully resolved in my tiny mind.
thanks George. Big potential for this type of product for those wanting theatre bypass. |
Yes, go without preamp and see if it works for you. |
Since I got rid of my analog gear and only have digital sources, I got rid of a newer Mcintosh preamp and went directly from my ps audio ds dac into a ps audio bhk amp, actually the sq is better. Quiet with a lot of headroom. I have attenuation turned on so my volume on the dac is anywhere from 85 to 100 using balanced cables. If you need more headroom, turning attenuation off, my volume is around 40-50 |
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Emerging Soul
I believe it was you that stated on another thread that you don’t like music very much. If I am mistaken, forgive me. However , if you’re primary interest is video, or podcasts, do you really want to be spending major dollars on two channel equipment?
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For the 20 mins a week I listen to stereo I want that 20 mins to sound extremely good and to be memorable. There should be no price tag to great when it comes to being successful in finding an extremely grate sounding preamp.
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