Comparing Powerline Ethernet to WiFi for streaming audio
Thought I would share my findings. I have a ROON based music server system with Tidal and Qobuz streaming services. Using Small Green Computer’s SonicTransport i9 Optical as ROON Core, connected via optical cable to a Sonore Optical Rendu (powered by Sonore Linear Power Supply) acting as ROON endpoint. This then connects to Chord Blu Mk 2 via USB, which upsamples and connects to Chord DAVE DAC via dual BNC. Until very recently, I was connecting my ROON Core to my cable modem/router using Google Mesh WiFi. I was and still is very happy with the sound quality. My audio system is too far from my cable modem to run an ethernet cable from cable modem/router to it. So, I relied on Google Mesh WiFi with a seperate pod situated close to the ROON Core and connected via ethernet. The Google Mesh pod itself had a linear power supply instead of the stock wall wart. But I just tried a Powerline Ethernet adapter. This uses the home’s internal power cables to route ethernet from one room to another. I always thought that running digital data on power cables was going to be noisy. I bought a NetGear Powerline 1200 (1200Mbps speed). There are more expensive and newer powerline ethernet models available up to 2000Mbps speed. But these come with dual ethernet ports and pass through filtered power outlets. I though for dedicated audio purposes, better to keep it simple and minimize electronics. Bottom line, I was blown away by the improvement in audio quality of the NetGear Powerline Ethernet connection over the Google Mesh WiFi connection. Mind you, I was very happy with the quality from the Google Mesh kit but the NetGear Powerline ethernet kit was clearly better. The sound quality improvement was immediate and very evident. More space between instruments and notes. Smoother, more image depth and more air around the notes especially the trailing edges. So, no doubt, the Netgear Powerline 1200 was far superior to the Google Mesh WiFi. I then swapped the Netgear for a similar powerline ethernet product TP-Link AV600. This was recommended by Small Green Computer. The TP-Link is smaller and has 2 pin power prongs. The Netgear Powerlines has 3 pin power prongs, so it has a ground connection to the power outlet. I found the TP-Link to take a step backward in sound quality. The image depth decreased. Soundstage was flatter and there is less air and space between notes and instruments. The TP-Link Av600 was sounding a lot closer to the Google Mesh WiFi. Just my observations, FWIW.
Did you ever compare a direct Ethernet connection to your Optical Rendu vs Powerline?
I am also intrigued by Aurelic's use of WiFi. They seem like the only company that has advocated WiFi to get music to the DAC.
I have similar streaming setup as you except I use a microRendu to my stereo and use the TP-Link Powerline (or whatever it is called) stuff to get internet to my computer server in the garage.
I posted this in the network switch thread. There may be relevance in your thread (to a degree) and hopefully helpful to those considering WiFi vs. a wired network connection.
Hans Beekhuyzen explaining WiFi vs. network cabling and more...
No, I've not tried direct ethernet. Just too far away and would need too much cabling. I had an Auralic Aries Femto streamer before. Initially with the built-in wifi and later with external wifi bridge and connect with Ethernet. Using the external wifi was better.
Yes, I did factor in cabling. I've tried the following ethernet cables: Revelation Audio, Purist Audio, Audioquest Forest, Supra CAT8 and Verastarr. The best in my system is Verastarr, then Purist, Revelation Audio and Supra. I use the Verastarr from Cable modem to WiFi router and from the mesh WiFi pod/powerline adapter to my server. So I use all Verastarr ethernet for my WiFi connection. But for the powerline adapter, I had a longer chain. I had to go from WiFi router to a network switch and here I use the Purist Audio ethernet cable as I only have 2 Verastarr. And from the switch to the 1st powerline adapter, I had to use the Supra ethernet cable because it needed to be 3m and that's the only 3m I have. So the Powerline adapter route had more cables that are poorer sound quality and also an additional network switch (TrendNet Teg-S80g) in between. So you would think that sound quality would suffer and that's why I delyaed trying powerline ethernet till now. But results were surprising. But note that different powerline adapters have different sonic signature. So not all powerline ethernet adapters may yield same results. And note that my findings is inspite of using an optical cable to my Optical Rendu (which theoretically should make any cabling noise prior to the optical cabling irrelevant). That's why my results are worth posting. Remarkable.
@ddriveman Thanks for the detailed response and further clarification of the chain and variations / variables. I'm really glad you posted your findings. This is good to know.
Further to my post above, I thought it is also important to note the internet speed test between the Google Mesh WiFi, The NetGear Powerline 1200 and the TP-Link AV600. I have COX Cable Internet in my home. I have the Gigabit package which is suppose to have 1000Mbps speed (1Gbps). But the fastest I can get is around 700Mpbs. With the NetGear Powerline 1200, I was getting about 250Mbps. With the TP-Link AV600 on the same power sockets as the NetGear, I was getting just under 100Mbps. FWIW
I used Powerline Adapters for several years, including the models mentioned by the OP. Eventually they all crapped out. It turns out that in my 100 plus year old home that there are several transitions in zones in the fuse box to get from the router to where the various equipment rooms are, and there is a 40 watt drop across each zone. The Adapters eventually give up the ghost trying to negotiate this. Eventually I bit the bullet And paid a few hundred bucks to have someone ethernet wire the place. The cat 5 is all out of view and everything has worked flawlessly in the years since, with much better performance than WiFi
I have been using Netgear power line Ethernet adapters in different parts of the house for the last 6 years. For the most part I have had great success, but learned early on that what works well on one outlet or room of the house may not work so well for another room or set of outlets. So I think that this is case where very much one’s mileage may vary.
Yup the power line adaptors all crap out after some time and your left with tons of drops. Especially on HiRez. Finally gave up and had a dedicated Cat6 line run into my Roon Nucleus. Couldn’t be happier.
Several years ago, I mentioned to my retailer that I was using a powerline adaptor and he said I should replace it with an Ethernet cable. I said it was ’impossible’ because my living room is on the opposite side of my house from my router and there is no way to install the Ethernet cable.
He explained that even if I have excellent electrical wiring in my home, a powerline adapter can never be as reliable as an Ethernet cable. A powerline adapter lets the signal travel through electric wiring, but it is still not a physical connection between my computer and my router, like an Ethernet cable is. A powerline adapter is an EXCELLENT option for hard-to-cable structures or where installations are too costly or time-intensive. Plastered walls, brick or cinder block can present a formidable challenge.
I asked the retailer to inspect my house and he said they could run an Ethernet cable under the floor, in the crawlspace, from my living room to my router. He went on to say that an Ethernet connection would result in a much better sound quality when streaming music from Tidal, Qobuz, etc.
The retailer installed the Ethernet cable and I have to agree the sound quality was much improved. I hope this helps.
I have a silly question ... I am running an ethernet cable from my router to my Apple TV that is connected to my 2 channel stereo amplifier. Now I have my headphone rig on the other side of the same room where the Bluesound Node 2 is acting as the streamer, and I want to extend the cable to it (currently on wifi).
I have two options ... 1. Run an additional cable directly from the router to the Bluesound, or 2. Put a switch where the cable (going into Apple TV) ends. Basically, this becomes a Y-shaped three-way connection. One end goes into the switch from the router, then from the switch one cable goes to the Apple TV and another one goes further to the Bluesound.
Obviously, the second option is easier since i don’t have to run a very long cable all the way from the router to the Node. But I’m not sure what the impact will be on the sound quality. If it doesn’t matter either way, I’d prefer option 2. Any input is appreciated.
@david_ten Thanks for your response. Yes, I understand that there is a third option i.e. powerline adapters. But since the router is in the same room, I am able to run a direct ethernet connection via CAT6 or 7. So the question is whether to run two separate cables from the router, or daisy chain the second cable from the first one.
@arafiq If it were me, I would run it via a good quality (generic) cable from the router and use a LAN isolator followed by a short run of a basic audiophile LAN cable (for example Supra CAT8) from the isolator to the Node 2.
@arafiq, My configuration is very similar to yours since I selected your option #2. My Family Room LG OLED TV is connected to my LUXUL Router using an Ethernet cable running under my house in the crawlspace. When I added my Aurender Music Server to my living room, we ran an Ethernet cable (under the house) from the Aurender, in my living room, to a LUXUL XGS-1008 switch sitting next to the TV in my family room.
This means BOTH the TV and my Aurender Music Server are connected to the LUXUL switch that is connected to my router. As I stated before, a power-line adapter works if an Ethernet connection is impossible. In my case, running an Ethernet cable from the Aurender to the shared LUXUL switch box works perfectly and easily solved my problem. I stream music from Qobuz with no problems and it sounds great.
Please ALSO note that at the beginning I had issues with my LINKSYS and Apple Routers. The streaming music was distorted, the signal was dropping out and I had other streaming issues. I finally purchased the LUXUL Dual-Band AC-3100 Gigabit Router and it works great. I checked the router monthly for software updates and also re-boot it at the same time. When streaming from Tidal, Qobuz, etc. every component in the chain needs to be working perfectly. This includes the ISP (Internet Service Provider), cable modem, router, switch boxes, music streamers, cables and everything else.
If needed, ask your ISP to confirm your cable signal is running in the correct frequency range. My ISP needed to adjust my cable signal to be in the correct frequency range.
06-01-2020 1:58pmHas anyone compared a mesh range extender vs. a hard wired ethernet connection?
Goose, The basis of my post that started this discussion thread is that I compared Mesh WiFi to wired ethernet connection and I found the wired ethernet to be profoundly better. Granted that my wired ethernet method is via Powerline Ethernet adapters and not true hard wired wire point to point ethernet cables. But that can only imply that true hard-wired ethernet cabling should only be better than mesh WiFi
@arafiq If it were me, I would run it via a good quality (generic) cable from the router and use a LAN isolator followed by a short run of a basic audiophile LAN cable (for example Supra CAT8) from the isolator to the Node 2.
One thing I forgot to mention is that I am using LAN isolators in my system, even with the previous Mesh WiFi setup. I use the Acoustic Revive RLI-1 LAN isolators. I use them from Cable modem to Wifi Router. And from the PowerLine Adapter to my music server. I found them to make discernible improvements in audio quality for both the Mesh WiFi Setup and also the Powerline Adpater setup. FWIW.
I use the Powerline 1000’s (three prong) from my router to my streamer.
My house is 55 years old, and initially, the Powerlines would only link at less than 50 Mbs (red indicator - I suspect it was actually passing less than 3Mbs) - and I would get drops/cut-outs when streaming now and then.
I solved the link and drop issues by replacing the cable-company supplied internet router with a Motorola MG7550, powered by an Sbooster LPS.
The Powerline adapters then linked at 100mbs and I’ve had zero drops/cut-outs. (I think the Sbooster would have probably solved this on it’s own).
I’ve made a couple of additional tweaks to help with potential noise:
Installed Gigafoil V4 ethernet filter between Powerline and streamer
Replaced SMPS on Gigafoil with Sbooster LPS
Attached Perfect Path Technology Alpha E-cards to both Powerline adaptors, and on router
I’m very happy with my digital front end. Rock solid, sounds great. I know the Powerline adaptors have had mixed results for audio, but if needed, some tweaks can make them work very well.
Thanks for posting that discussion from whatsbest forum. Great info there.
I found that my original Comcast modem was on the "bad modem" list for using the Intel Puma chipset. This might confirm some of the issues I was having - and the solution.
@veroguy You are welcome. Glad it was helpful. It’s a great topic and thread.
By sheer coincidence / luck I swapped out my Cox Router for the Arris SB8200 cable modem (the one the OP of that thread recommends highly) prior to the start of his thread.
I’m using Netgear’s Orbi Pro Mesh Router and Satellite to separate the incoming signal gear area from the audio room area.
The Arris and the Orbi Pro Primary (router) are powered off of a HDPLEX LPS with custom DC cables. I’m also using a basic power supply/conditioner for that area.
The Orbi Pro Satellite (dedicated to the Audio System / wired) is powered off of a Keces P8 LPS with a higher level custom DC cable. Both are on SR's Tranquility Base. The Keces runs off of my SR PowerCell, and is grounded. I need to get a cable to ground the Orbi Pro.
FYI: A possible downside with a cable modem is the frequency of firmware updates via Cox, in my case (or your ISP). I investigated the ability to do so myself, but it would have required a Business (and Higher Level) Account with Cox. Since we are moving, I didn’t push that button.
Thanks everyone for responding to my question. I have decided to go with option #1: Modem >> Router >> switch >> one line going to Apple TV (which will be replaced with a better streamer soon), and another line from the switch going to Bluesound. Planning to set it up this weekend.
As the next step, I will look into adding one or more LAN isolators. That was a great suggestion and a good read. Thank you for the info.
Further to my original post on the NetGear Powerline 1200 (1200Mobs). I decided to try other powerline ethernet adapters. Thanks to Amazon, I ordered the Zyxel G.hn 2400 wave 2 powerline adapter. This is the fastest powerline adapter I can find 2400 Mbps) and uses latest technology G.hn. I also ordered the TP-Link AV2000 (2000 Mps). Both the Zyxel and the TP-Link have pass through filtered power socket and 3 prong sockets. Note that I am on COX ISP with 1000 Mbps service although the max speed I can get is around 750Mps only. So even my NetGear Powerline 1200 is theoretical already exceeding what my ISP can provide. Findings: 1) Zyxel G.hn 2400. At first, I thought this was sounding better. It seems cleaner, quiter, more focussed. But further listening showed that it truncated the trailing edges, less air, smaller soundstage. It sounds flatter and more "hi-fi" but less organic, less natural than the NetGear 1200. When I switched back to the NetGear 1200, I heaved a sigh of relief. The music was flowing better, wider+deeper soundstage and more air with better timbre and texture. So the Zyxel is being returned. 2) TP-Link AV2000. I was not able to connect this to my music server. For some unknown reason, my music server won't sync to the TP-Link although I confirmed that internet was connected and present. The ethernet sockets on the TP-Link seemed tighter/smaller than normal. My audiophile ethernet cables have large connecters and don't have a definite click when inserting. It's probably something to do with these ethernet sockets. I was not going to try to listen to it with standard ethernet cables. So, the TP-Link is bring returned Finally, I have also moved my cable modem, wifi router and ethernet switch to a audiophile linear power supply from iFi iPower power supplies which yielded a small sound improvement. This was done before reviewing the powerline adapters. FWIW
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