Comparing Powerline Ethernet to WiFi for streaming audio
Thought I would share my findings. I have a ROON based music server system with Tidal and Qobuz streaming services. Using Small Green Computer’s SonicTransport i9 Optical as ROON Core, connected via optical cable to a Sonore Optical Rendu (powered by Sonore Linear Power Supply) acting as ROON endpoint. This then connects to Chord Blu Mk 2 via USB, which upsamples and connects to Chord DAVE DAC via dual BNC. Until very recently, I was connecting my ROON Core to my cable modem/router using Google Mesh WiFi. I was and still is very happy with the sound quality. My audio system is too far from my cable modem to run an ethernet cable from cable modem/router to it. So, I relied on Google Mesh WiFi with a seperate pod situated close to the ROON Core and connected via ethernet. The Google Mesh pod itself had a linear power supply instead of the stock wall wart. But I just tried a Powerline Ethernet adapter. This uses the home’s internal power cables to route ethernet from one room to another. I always thought that running digital data on power cables was going to be noisy. I bought a NetGear Powerline 1200 (1200Mbps speed). There are more expensive and newer powerline ethernet models available up to 2000Mbps speed. But these come with dual ethernet ports and pass through filtered power outlets. I though for dedicated audio purposes, better to keep it simple and minimize electronics. Bottom line, I was blown away by the improvement in audio quality of the NetGear Powerline Ethernet connection over the Google Mesh WiFi connection. Mind you, I was very happy with the quality from the Google Mesh kit but the NetGear Powerline ethernet kit was clearly better. The sound quality improvement was immediate and very evident. More space between instruments and notes. Smoother, more image depth and more air around the notes especially the trailing edges. So, no doubt, the Netgear Powerline 1200 was far superior to the Google Mesh WiFi. I then swapped the Netgear for a similar powerline ethernet product TP-Link AV600. This was recommended by Small Green Computer. The TP-Link is smaller and has 2 pin power prongs. The Netgear Powerlines has 3 pin power prongs, so it has a ground connection to the power outlet. I found the TP-Link to take a step backward in sound quality. The image depth decreased. Soundstage was flatter and there is less air and space between notes and instruments. The TP-Link Av600 was sounding a lot closer to the Google Mesh WiFi. Just my observations, FWIW.
Did you ever compare a direct Ethernet connection to your Optical Rendu vs Powerline?
I am also intrigued by Aurelic's use of WiFi. They seem like the only company that has advocated WiFi to get music to the DAC.
I have similar streaming setup as you except I use a microRendu to my stereo and use the TP-Link Powerline (or whatever it is called) stuff to get internet to my computer server in the garage.
I posted this in the network switch thread. There may be relevance in your thread (to a degree) and hopefully helpful to those considering WiFi vs. a wired network connection.
Hans Beekhuyzen explaining WiFi vs. network cabling and more...
No, I've not tried direct ethernet. Just too far away and would need too much cabling. I had an Auralic Aries Femto streamer before. Initially with the built-in wifi and later with external wifi bridge and connect with Ethernet. Using the external wifi was better.
Yes, I did factor in cabling. I've tried the following ethernet cables: Revelation Audio, Purist Audio, Audioquest Forest, Supra CAT8 and Verastarr. The best in my system is Verastarr, then Purist, Revelation Audio and Supra. I use the Verastarr from Cable modem to WiFi router and from the mesh WiFi pod/powerline adapter to my server. So I use all Verastarr ethernet for my WiFi connection. But for the powerline adapter, I had a longer chain. I had to go from WiFi router to a network switch and here I use the Purist Audio ethernet cable as I only have 2 Verastarr. And from the switch to the 1st powerline adapter, I had to use the Supra ethernet cable because it needed to be 3m and that's the only 3m I have. So the Powerline adapter route had more cables that are poorer sound quality and also an additional network switch (TrendNet Teg-S80g) in between. So you would think that sound quality would suffer and that's why I delyaed trying powerline ethernet till now. But results were surprising. But note that different powerline adapters have different sonic signature. So not all powerline ethernet adapters may yield same results. And note that my findings is inspite of using an optical cable to my Optical Rendu (which theoretically should make any cabling noise prior to the optical cabling irrelevant). That's why my results are worth posting. Remarkable.
@ddriveman Thanks for the detailed response and further clarification of the chain and variations / variables. I'm really glad you posted your findings. This is good to know.
Further to my post above, I thought it is also important to note the internet speed test between the Google Mesh WiFi, The NetGear Powerline 1200 and the TP-Link AV600. I have COX Cable Internet in my home. I have the Gigabit package which is suppose to have 1000Mbps speed (1Gbps). But the fastest I can get is around 700Mpbs. With the NetGear Powerline 1200, I was getting about 250Mbps. With the TP-Link AV600 on the same power sockets as the NetGear, I was getting just under 100Mbps. FWIW
I used Powerline Adapters for several years, including the models mentioned by the OP. Eventually they all crapped out. It turns out that in my 100 plus year old home that there are several transitions in zones in the fuse box to get from the router to where the various equipment rooms are, and there is a 40 watt drop across each zone. The Adapters eventually give up the ghost trying to negotiate this. Eventually I bit the bullet And paid a few hundred bucks to have someone ethernet wire the place. The cat 5 is all out of view and everything has worked flawlessly in the years since, with much better performance than WiFi
I have been using Netgear power line Ethernet adapters in different parts of the house for the last 6 years. For the most part I have had great success, but learned early on that what works well on one outlet or room of the house may not work so well for another room or set of outlets. So I think that this is case where very much one’s mileage may vary.
Yup the power line adaptors all crap out after some time and your left with tons of drops. Especially on HiRez. Finally gave up and had a dedicated Cat6 line run into my Roon Nucleus. Couldn’t be happier.
Several years ago, I mentioned to my retailer that I was using a powerline adaptor and he said I should replace it with an Ethernet cable. I said it was ’impossible’ because my living room is on the opposite side of my house from my router and there is no way to install the Ethernet cable.
He explained that even if I have excellent electrical wiring in my home, a powerline adapter can never be as reliable as an Ethernet cable. A powerline adapter lets the signal travel through electric wiring, but it is still not a physical connection between my computer and my router, like an Ethernet cable is. A powerline adapter is an EXCELLENT option for hard-to-cable structures or where installations are too costly or time-intensive. Plastered walls, brick or cinder block can present a formidable challenge.
I asked the retailer to inspect my house and he said they could run an Ethernet cable under the floor, in the crawlspace, from my living room to my router. He went on to say that an Ethernet connection would result in a much better sound quality when streaming music from Tidal, Qobuz, etc.
The retailer installed the Ethernet cable and I have to agree the sound quality was much improved. I hope this helps.
I have a silly question ... I am running an ethernet cable from my router to my Apple TV that is connected to my 2 channel stereo amplifier. Now I have my headphone rig on the other side of the same room where the Bluesound Node 2 is acting as the streamer, and I want to extend the cable to it (currently on wifi).
I have two options ... 1. Run an additional cable directly from the router to the Bluesound, or 2. Put a switch where the cable (going into Apple TV) ends. Basically, this becomes a Y-shaped three-way connection. One end goes into the switch from the router, then from the switch one cable goes to the Apple TV and another one goes further to the Bluesound.
Obviously, the second option is easier since i don’t have to run a very long cable all the way from the router to the Node. But I’m not sure what the impact will be on the sound quality. If it doesn’t matter either way, I’d prefer option 2. Any input is appreciated.
@david_ten Thanks for your response. Yes, I understand that there is a third option i.e. powerline adapters. But since the router is in the same room, I am able to run a direct ethernet connection via CAT6 or 7. So the question is whether to run two separate cables from the router, or daisy chain the second cable from the first one.
@arafiq If it were me, I would run it via a good quality (generic) cable from the router and use a LAN isolator followed by a short run of a basic audiophile LAN cable (for example Supra CAT8) from the isolator to the Node 2.
@arafiq, My configuration is very similar to yours since I selected your option #2. My Family Room LG OLED TV is connected to my LUXUL Router using an Ethernet cable running under my house in the crawlspace. When I added my Aurender Music Server to my living room, we ran an Ethernet cable (under the house) from the Aurender, in my living room, to a LUXUL XGS-1008 switch sitting next to the TV in my family room.
This means BOTH the TV and my Aurender Music Server are connected to the LUXUL switch that is connected to my router. As I stated before, a power-line adapter works if an Ethernet connection is impossible. In my case, running an Ethernet cable from the Aurender to the shared LUXUL switch box works perfectly and easily solved my problem. I stream music from Qobuz with no problems and it sounds great.
Please ALSO note that at the beginning I had issues with my LINKSYS and Apple Routers. The streaming music was distorted, the signal was dropping out and I had other streaming issues. I finally purchased the LUXUL Dual-Band AC-3100 Gigabit Router and it works great. I checked the router monthly for software updates and also re-boot it at the same time. When streaming from Tidal, Qobuz, etc. every component in the chain needs to be working perfectly. This includes the ISP (Internet Service Provider), cable modem, router, switch boxes, music streamers, cables and everything else.
If needed, ask your ISP to confirm your cable signal is running in the correct frequency range. My ISP needed to adjust my cable signal to be in the correct frequency range.
06-01-2020 1:58pmHas anyone compared a mesh range extender vs. a hard wired ethernet connection?
Goose, The basis of my post that started this discussion thread is that I compared Mesh WiFi to wired ethernet connection and I found the wired ethernet to be profoundly better. Granted that my wired ethernet method is via Powerline Ethernet adapters and not true hard wired wire point to point ethernet cables. But that can only imply that true hard-wired ethernet cabling should only be better than mesh WiFi
@arafiq If it were me, I would run it via a good quality (generic) cable from the router and use a LAN isolator followed by a short run of a basic audiophile LAN cable (for example Supra CAT8) from the isolator to the Node 2.
One thing I forgot to mention is that I am using LAN isolators in my system, even with the previous Mesh WiFi setup. I use the Acoustic Revive RLI-1 LAN isolators. I use them from Cable modem to Wifi Router. And from the PowerLine Adapter to my music server. I found them to make discernible improvements in audio quality for both the Mesh WiFi Setup and also the Powerline Adpater setup. FWIW.
I use the Powerline 1000’s (three prong) from my router to my streamer.
My house is 55 years old, and initially, the Powerlines would only link at less than 50 Mbs (red indicator - I suspect it was actually passing less than 3Mbs) - and I would get drops/cut-outs when streaming now and then.
I solved the link and drop issues by replacing the cable-company supplied internet router with a Motorola MG7550, powered by an Sbooster LPS.
The Powerline adapters then linked at 100mbs and I’ve had zero drops/cut-outs. (I think the Sbooster would have probably solved this on it’s own).
I’ve made a couple of additional tweaks to help with potential noise:
Installed Gigafoil V4 ethernet filter between Powerline and streamer
Replaced SMPS on Gigafoil with Sbooster LPS
Attached Perfect Path Technology Alpha E-cards to both Powerline adaptors, and on router
I’m very happy with my digital front end. Rock solid, sounds great. I know the Powerline adaptors have had mixed results for audio, but if needed, some tweaks can make them work very well.
Thanks for posting that discussion from whatsbest forum. Great info there.
I found that my original Comcast modem was on the "bad modem" list for using the Intel Puma chipset. This might confirm some of the issues I was having - and the solution.
@veroguy You are welcome. Glad it was helpful. It’s a great topic and thread.
By sheer coincidence / luck I swapped out my Cox Router for the Arris SB8200 cable modem (the one the OP of that thread recommends highly) prior to the start of his thread.
I’m using Netgear’s Orbi Pro Mesh Router and Satellite to separate the incoming signal gear area from the audio room area.
The Arris and the Orbi Pro Primary (router) are powered off of a HDPLEX LPS with custom DC cables. I’m also using a basic power supply/conditioner for that area.
The Orbi Pro Satellite (dedicated to the Audio System / wired) is powered off of a Keces P8 LPS with a higher level custom DC cable. Both are on SR's Tranquility Base. The Keces runs off of my SR PowerCell, and is grounded. I need to get a cable to ground the Orbi Pro.
FYI: A possible downside with a cable modem is the frequency of firmware updates via Cox, in my case (or your ISP). I investigated the ability to do so myself, but it would have required a Business (and Higher Level) Account with Cox. Since we are moving, I didn’t push that button.
Thanks everyone for responding to my question. I have decided to go with option #1: Modem >> Router >> switch >> one line going to Apple TV (which will be replaced with a better streamer soon), and another line from the switch going to Bluesound. Planning to set it up this weekend.
As the next step, I will look into adding one or more LAN isolators. That was a great suggestion and a good read. Thank you for the info.
Further to my original post on the NetGear Powerline 1200 (1200Mobs). I decided to try other powerline ethernet adapters. Thanks to Amazon, I ordered the Zyxel G.hn 2400 wave 2 powerline adapter. This is the fastest powerline adapter I can find 2400 Mbps) and uses latest technology G.hn. I also ordered the TP-Link AV2000 (2000 Mps). Both the Zyxel and the TP-Link have pass through filtered power socket and 3 prong sockets. Note that I am on COX ISP with 1000 Mbps service although the max speed I can get is around 750Mps only. So even my NetGear Powerline 1200 is theoretical already exceeding what my ISP can provide. Findings: 1) Zyxel G.hn 2400. At first, I thought this was sounding better. It seems cleaner, quiter, more focussed. But further listening showed that it truncated the trailing edges, less air, smaller soundstage. It sounds flatter and more "hi-fi" but less organic, less natural than the NetGear 1200. When I switched back to the NetGear 1200, I heaved a sigh of relief. The music was flowing better, wider+deeper soundstage and more air with better timbre and texture. So the Zyxel is being returned. 2) TP-Link AV2000. I was not able to connect this to my music server. For some unknown reason, my music server won't sync to the TP-Link although I confirmed that internet was connected and present. The ethernet sockets on the TP-Link seemed tighter/smaller than normal. My audiophile ethernet cables have large connecters and don't have a definite click when inserting. It's probably something to do with these ethernet sockets. I was not going to try to listen to it with standard ethernet cables. So, the TP-Link is bring returned Finally, I have also moved my cable modem, wifi router and ethernet switch to a audiophile linear power supply from iFi iPower power supplies which yielded a small sound improvement. This was done before reviewing the powerline adapters. FWIW
@ddriveman Thanks for your post. It was very helpful to me. I had the exact same experience you did. My wifi streaming sounded lovely, however an internet tech (after installing Fiber) recommended I try Powerline adaptors.
First I tried the TP-Link AV1000 Powerline Ethernet - the sound was noticeably constrained, veiled, more harsh and less engaging than wifi. Soundstage much smaller than Wifi.
Then from your post, I tried the NETGEAR Powerline adapter Kit, 2000 Mbps Wall-plug. A noticeable increase in bass and treble definition and depth, clarity and microdetails. Soundstage slightly taller than Wifi. A nice improvement, and worth the $70.
This was all through a Bluesound Node 2, with Apple Music Lossless Airplay as a source.
Again, thanks for the tip and hopefully this is helpful to others!
I have my audio system connected to my router via a 50 foot CAT6 ethernet cable. I use Powerline adapters for my TV setup which involves an outdoor antenna and a Tablo over-the-air DVR (works fantastic, BTW, as long as you have a really good antenna signal feeding it).
It very well may be a placebo effect, but my audio system sounds harsher (even with vinyl) until I unplug the Powerline adapters. I do have an Audioquest Niagara power conditioner....
I also like to turn off my hot tub and fridge at the breaker box and make sure all dimmers are off before doing any serious listening.
I have thought about doing an experiment by running a temporary long coax cable inside my house and put my modem and router closer to my audio system, the theory being that it might be better to have a long coax run and a short ethernet run. A similar theory to having my monoblocks right behind my speakers? I'm using .5 meter speaker cables and roughly 4 meter interconnects from preamp to power amp
@boulder_bobI recently moved to a new room where it was not convenient to use a wired Ethernet connection, and it was recommended that I use a wireless extender instead. I did this and everything worked fine. One day I decided to see if a hard wired connection would sound better, so I ran my 30’ BJC Cat6 cable through the house to the router. The change was significant and not in a good way, the black background was now more gray. I reverted back to the Tp-Link extender and all was well again. My conclusion is that even well shielded Ethernet cables act as big antennas and collect noise. Try an extender, or insert an optical run and a short Ethernet cable on the system side. I think you will like the results.
I have a relevant situation. In my vacation home I have no Ethernet wiring past my modem location. I have installed an Eero pro 6 mesh system with base and two extenders. One extender is in my audio room, where I have a WiFi connected Auralic Altair G1.1 streamer / DAC.
Since the Eero extender is located close to my equipment, I decided to try plugging the Altair into the WiFi extenders Ethernet port. I assume this would be called internet over power???
The result was much improved sound. I then swapped in a better Ethernet cable and was again rewarded with improvement. I do believe the last Ethernet cable goin into your streamer or DAC should be of quality.
I don't think the TP-Link AC1200 uses the power line - it seems to be using the receptacle as a convenience. I may try one to see if I can hear a difference
I don't think the TP-Link AC1200 uses the power line - it seems to be using the receptacle as a convenience. I may try one to see if I can hear a difference
@boulder_bob You may be right but not sure it really matters. I think the main benefit is in relieving the streamer of using its Wi-Fi receiver that for whatever reason (low quality, extra processing, noise, all of the above?) results in notably better sound quality. Definitely use a decent Ethernet cable though because they do matter. FWIW.
Wow how much ADO about same bits. Is your WiFi not capable of copying Word files or printing documents? If it does, then there is no difference with Ethernet. Networks are designed to deliver information with zero loss. Over cables, satellite, fiber, wired, wireless.
Is your WiFi not capable of copying Word files or printing documents? If it does, then there is no difference with Ethernet. Networks are designed to deliver information with zero loss. Over cables, satellite, fiber, wired, wireless.
@mikhailark Absolutely!!! There’s no difference between any digital transmission whatsoever because it’s all ones and zeros so what could possibly go wrong and there’s no possibility whatsoever of any variability or error in any digital signal. Of course transmitting text documents is identical to audio signals!!! How could that possibly be any different? 🙄🙄🙄 Oh wait — jitter and timing for just one thing. Does jitter and timing affect text transmission? Uh, I think not. If you don’t think digital clocks and timing have any impact on sonic results in audio you are in the extreme minority here and are ignoring tons of research and empirical studies that show the contrary. Bits are not bits when it comes to audio, and there are multiple factors that can influence what we ultimately hear in digital audio from filters to cables, clocks, shielding, and everything in between. That you refuse to accept the research or hear the differences is on you but keep preaching your ill-informed, tin-eared doctrine if you must. The rest of us know — and hear — better.
@soixtransmission of files over networks is absolutely identical to music streams. There is no concept of jitter in network protocols. Or any loss. Are you mixing up primitive coax AES transmission with internet? Poorly designed non-correcting Red Book or Toslink, sure.
Can you explain exactly how bits are affected between streaming server and your router? What exactly is going on and how information comes down to your rack. What is exactly different in a network packet with FLAC as a file and FLAC as a stream. I am all ears.
@zlone I tried out the TP-Link extender yesterday. Sounded worse than my 60 foot Cat6 ethernet cable. Female vocals harsher. Didn't spend any more time listening
Interesting, my results were exactly the opposite. Out of curiosity, what streamer are you connecting and what are you using for a cable to the TP-Link?
@zlonemy path is: TP Link router with iFi LPS, Generic Ethernet Cable, Cisco 2960G switch, DX Engineering passive in line filter, 60 feet of Cat6 cable, DX filter, Cisco 2960G switch, Pangea ethernet cable to Sonore Media Converter with Sonore LPS, Direct Attach Cable (I forget the brand, but it’s the one recommended by the Etherregen guy) to Sonore OpticalRendu. When I tried the extender I used the Pangea Cable from the extender directly into the Media Converter. To me, the range extender is suspect because I suspect it has a noisy power supply, also the speed is way less than the direct connection. I would like to try an Etherregen, using it "backwards" and eliminate the Media Converter.
@boulder_bobI would agree that the range extender probably has a noisy power supply. With a setup as sophisticated as yours, I expect that the cable sounds pretty good, strip everything out of there and you might get my results. It sounds like you have done your homework. I will get around to isolating the extender at some point, or replacing it with something better, but for now it is working better than the cable in my system. Thanks for reporting back.
My house is not wired with ethernet and wifi can't reach certain rooms very well. It has dead spots. My kid works in IT and set everything up using something called mocha adapters? I'm probably saying it wrong. It uses the wiring from Comcast TV service that we already have going to each room. Little adapter box converts to ethernet and it works great.
I haven't compared the sound quality. Wifi seems fine but you can't listen when it pauses to buffer. So getting a good hard wiring setup seems like a good idea whether it is ethernet or powerline or mocha.
I used the same Powerline adapter as the OP. It worked great and I preferred it to WiFi after 6 months the PLA stopped working. Replaced it and a few months later same story. An electrician that we had engaged to fix something else did a measurement and told me there was a big voltage drop between the outlets on different floors and that after a brief power outage that caused the PLAs short out. I didn’t quite get that but fool me twice…
I spent about $500 8 years ago to have the house ether net wired. I’ve got a bunch of devices on 3 levels attached via switches and they all work perfectly. Best AV investment I ever made
An electrician that we had engaged to fix something else did a measurement and told me there was a big voltage drop between the outlets on different floors and that after a brief power outage that caused the PLAs short out.
A voltage drop or outage by themselves cannot cause a short circuit.
Inexpensive and they work fantastically, seem to be just plug and play. This assumes your home is already wired with coaxial cable from a cable TV or maybe Dish Network DirectTV type of installation. If so it might be an easier way to get ethernet level performance without running actual ethernet cable.
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