When I started record playing I used the Parastat cleaner which basically was a round brush you recharged with water. I then had a Nitty Gritty but gave it away. I just bought a vpi cyclone and I use zyme then put the record in a static free sleave. As far as pops or ticks they are few and far between but for me there just the price of admission in the analog world. I clean a record when it sounds dirty or has a skip. I'm not fanatical about it,I would rather enjoy the music.
Cleaning records. How often really?
Suppose, they have just been machine-cleaned and are played maybe two times a month in a regular environment.
Also treated with Last record preservative and kept in sealed outer sleeves.
Once a year or so?
Just don't tell me before each play, yeah, I heard of this insane approach.
Also treated with Last record preservative and kept in sealed outer sleeves.
Once a year or so?
Just don't tell me before each play, yeah, I heard of this insane approach.
72 responses Add your response
Seems that we all have a cure for dirty records. I use an Audio Technica brush and make my own cleaning fluid. I got the recipe from the December 1996 Stereophile. I clean every time I play. I have no ticks, clicks, or pops. In fact I can't remember the last time I heard a click or pop from my LP's. They're very quite. I make the formula in gallons, bottle it and give it away as gifts to other audio nuts like myself. If you can't find the Stereophile issue email me and I will send you a copy. Best, Norman |
Atmasphere - FWIW I also don’t experience a lot in the way of surface noise. The phono equalizer (preamp) can exacerbate surface noise if the preamp is unstable. Vinyl would be no fun with noise. But noise is also relative. One thing for sure, those that are older and had a stash of records before CD came in are more conditioned to deal with the noises issues and fix them to levels acceptable to them. Those younger that only knew digital first - have very little patience. I agree, and believe there are some, re-cleaning, clean records that are noisy not due to the lp’s fault itself entirely, but due to some anomaly that is happening in the way the LP is being played, the signal sent to pre/amp/phono, and on to the amp/speakers. This would be evidenced IMO by a person saying, I think something similar was said on this thread too :^) ; "I cleaned the record over again - my whole routine, and nothing changed". This tells me the cleaning process, or something in the signal chain need to be looked at. My records are quiet. Many rival digital with the lead in, and between grooves. I am running a straight shot of unshielded phono wire. I am confident through my trials with other gear over the years, and in speaking with the person that makes my looms, and his experiences with his other customers; that the isolation afforded by the design of the TT, Tonearm, and the quality of my pre/phono is what allows this to happen. I knew someone who thought his surface noise was made worse by improper grounding, so he tried grounding the TT to his very sturdy house cold water supply pipe. Surface noise multiplied. That experiment didn’t last long. Whart - I’m fastidious in maintaining a ’clean’ room within reason (not a "clean room" in the technical sense) and I find that at best, I am moving the dust around, it is impossible to eliminate. I agree Whart and I am about the same I guess, within reason. I also cannot imagine someone being OCD over dust and being involved with vinyl. I recall someone on the forums mentioning that he was building his own turntable, but that he had this thing (problem) with dust. Didn’t make any sense. I am very sensitive to cleaning around the cartridge, having beheaded an XV1’s cantilever years ago. An isolated incident 20 feet from the TT; but what can happen if you’re not careful.... still makes me shudder a bit. |
I rarely find it necessary to clean LPs. Usually a dust brush right at the time of play is sufficient. FWIW I also don't experience a lot in the way of surface noise. The phono equalizer (preamp) can exacerbate surface noise if the preamp is unstable. My preamp employs passive EQ, which helps a preamp be more stable, and even though bandwidth is unaffected, surface noise is obviously reduced. So its rare that I have to clean an LP. |
ct0517- for my next room, I’m seriously considering a whole house active filtration system that installs as part of the HVAC. We had one in our previous house- I’m sure that the technology has improved since then. I have none in this house, but even with the air conditioning off, the listening room isolated from the rest of the house, windows never open, no pets in room, no "traffic" other than me and the occasional guest, no shoes, etc., the dust is a constant. We live "in the country" along the Hudson River 25 miles or so north of Manhattan- perhaps not as pristine as some parts of the country due to air-borne pollution, but pretty clean, green, quiet and low density here. Also very little vehicle traffic on my road. I’m fastidious in maintaining a ’clean’ room within reason (not a "clean room" in the technical sense) and I find that at best, I am moving the dust around, it is impossible to eliminate. |
Yes dust is the common enemy and vinyl that is playing is exposed to it. Dust is made up of yucky things that are floating in the air around us such as dead skin, house-dust-mites, the droppings from house-dust-mites,pollen from flowers and trees,dirt from the roads,fluff from our clothes sheets bedding etc, ash, exhausts of motor vehicles,and small bits of debris which is carried in on the soles of our shoes. The Op Inna further discusses cooking and smoking in his posts . The contaminants from those activities end up on the vinyl, carried there by dust. Another threat to the vinyl - pets. You know Koaltar and I are buds; and as much as I really want to allow him beside me when listening; (he is good at not talking); he is not permitted downstairs where the gear is for two reasons. His shedding. I do find hairs on the stairs leading down. He is also a chewer. Dust in the Wind https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH2w6Oxx0kQ |
ct0517---Being aware of the problem of dust covers resonating, I modified the base/dust cover of my Townshend Rock Elite table. The Rock's solid/non-suspended plinth (a folded sheet of steel, filled with plaster-of-paris) has three squishy (Sorbothane?) half-spheres on it's underside to isolate it from ground-borne vibration, and when used with the optional base and dustcover, sits on a thin sheet of wood that is the bottom of the base. To minimize the amount of vibration the base and dust cover may transmit into the Rock's plinth, I cut out the bottom of the base, leaving just a frame that surrounds the plinth, the two now connected only through the shelf they sit on. The base (with dust cover) sits on little rubber feet, and the Rock's plinth on roller bearings, both situated on a Townshend Seismic Sink. I may try a set of the new Townshend Seismic Pods under the plinth in the near future. |
Well ,maybe not 'couple of minutes' but not too long. Depends on how you clean them. In my case, I would skip enzyme solution and just use Archivist solution followed by pure water once or twice. So..I'd say two minutes each side. And I do believe that there is debris. This is needle 'scratching' vinyl not laser moving along. |
gpgr4blu Hi Gpgr4blu Jordan of Micro Care told me (by phone/email) that they are the same product except the new one includes Acetone as well. ****************************************************** Me - Hi Jordan. per our call is this the same product. http://www.soundstagedirect.com/accessories-mico-care-premier-cleaner.shtml
He sent me the SDS sheets. If anyone wants them send me an email listed on my virtual system link and I will forward them to you. Cheers |
When a record comes into my possession, whether it is new , used and clean in appearance or used with remnants of mishandling, regardless they get run through the Loricraft I have used for decades twice then placed in a new inner sleeve. Handled properly and lightly brushed before play and put back in the sleeve they never see the cleaner again. |
If anyone wants to inquire about the Premier product and if it was different from the (regular) Micro Care contact cleaner, the company to call is Micro Care. They were the ones who (also) supplied Premier (for which Smart Devices used to charge $19.95!) but apparently Premier as a separate product is no longer supplied to the online audiophile outlets. You can contact them here: http://www.microcareelectronics.com/product-category/contact-cleaners/ . |
As for the Panasonic record brush -- looks very cool! But it won't remove static from a record because it's not grounded Hi Nsgarch What a cool gift from an audio buddy - don't you think ? I don't have a static problem, so as long as it picks up the lint and does not make any static - I'm ok with that. I may call All-Spec out of curiosity to see is there is a wetting agent in there. Just curious because I use one in the formula I make up. btw - I remember our phone call - four years ago ? 11-29-15: Veroman Do you live in S. California ? 8^0 Glad we can be of help. If you change your mind let me know. I have a Technics sl-1200 that I can lend you ..... |
Hello Ct0517 Re the Premier products: it looks like Soundstage, MusicDirect, and Acoustic Sounds all list the item as discontinued? All I know is it's still available from All-Spec, and when I took the time to look closely at fine print on both products, they use the same bar code and list the same manufacturer and part no. As for the Panasonic record brush -- looks very cool! But it won't remove static from a record because it's not grounded -- and so there's nowhere for the static charge to go. The only NON-GROUNDED device that is effective is the Zero-stat (or other gun) and they work by NEUTRALIZING the (negative) static charge with a positive ion discharge. I have one of those too (the Ortofon version) and it works alright, but it doesn't discharge the static like a grounded carbon-fiber brush. |
Not sure if there's any science to support this idea but one of the only reasons I can think of to use a RCM every time is that, in theory, when you spin an lp, micro particles of plastic break off some micro peak and could then, if not removed, wind up getting lodged in some other sideways valley that make up the groves of the album. If you wash regularly, even every time if you're so inclined, you would probably remove those little pieces of debris. I suppose if you're listening to the same lp over and over again (who's crazy?) washing it again and again may get ridiculous, but maybe you might want to get a couple of other records and musically change things up a bit. Don't know if there's any damage done to an lp by washing too often but it seems at worse you waste a couple of minutes and some washing fluid but have a super clean lp. Call me crazy, but you may not even have to worry about being called insane :) |
A turntable with a dust cover that can be in place during play is a must, Eric - anyone with a kit setup that is capable of pressurizing their room, even at 75-80 db or above with full scale classical or rock can feel the cover resonating. Those vibes go into the plinth. Well Vinyl is a resonance hobby so maybe this added effect works well for that room, gear, and listener. I have this Technics SL-1200 with cover, that I have been loaning out the last 15 years - mostly to work colleagues for their kids. They keep it a few months, some more than a year. They either get their fix and forget about it, or they like it and buy their own table. It was in fact just returned to me last October. Amazing how much its value has gone up. |
11-27-15: Nsgarch Hi Nsgarch taken from Premier's website is this wording. Premier But Premiér features a special additive which breaks those 'static' bonds, freeing the dust to float off the LP. This unleashes the 'like new' sound thats trapped in your LPs -- getting rid of the static means you get rid of the dust, along with the snaps and pops and cracks which drive you nuts. So what is the special additive ...By chance is it a well known wetting agent ? This is the battery operated record brush I was referring to in my earlier post that I got from an audio friend. battery record brush - - |
One way to get rid of the residual dust that gets past filters, seals and every other mechanical strategy available, is ionization. There are room ionizers and whole house units (even some that can be installed in an existing HVAC system.) They act by charging airborne particulates so that they are strongly attracted to ground, and settle to the floor. If the floor is carpeted, that's helpful as they tend to remain collected there until vacuumed up. Speaking of 'grounding', like many folks, I usually gave my records a swipe with a carbon brush just before lowering the stylus. But I was never satisfied with the result, because dust remained on the record, or got re-attracted to the vinyl surface during play. I thought of some tips I'd seen or read about attaching a ground(ed) wire to the brush. In theory, that should have solved the problem; but after implementing this suggestion, the results were nil. I was puzzled -- until I realized that the carbon bristles were not electrically in contact with the metal of the brush handle! So wire or no wire, there was simply no way for the charge to drain to ground! I could only find one carbon-fiber brush which construction satisfied this requirement, and that is the Hunt EDA No. 6 brush. The carbon bristles are clamped firmly into the aluminum handle; so if you run a wire from the handle to a suitable ground, a single brush swipe will remove all the remaining dust from your record AND it will also remove any remaining charge from the vinyl itself, so it won't attract more dust while it's playing. . |
11-27-15: Bdp24 Hi Eric, so what does the hard core vinyl guy with thousands of records do in S. California? Build some kind of bubble room ? The houses here have a sealed vapor barrier in front of the insulation going around the entire house including the full basements. This vapor barrier is very similar to the dust cover on your Quad 57's except heavy duty. The windows are double pane with similar insulation values to the walls. I guess one of these would come in handy for some in that type of dusty environment. Cheers Chris |
All that desert air would be great for a turntable if it wasn't for all that static electricity from that dry air. It gets pretty dry here on the coldest days in winter. Most homes have natural gas forced air heating, I have found keeping the record in an antistatic sleeve is important. With new/old records I bring in, the paper sleeves are discarded. You can clearly see the particles on the record from these new sleeves on new records when you first pull them out. The records are cleaned but its important to not let them dry out totally from the vacuuming in dry conditions. They are left in the open air for a few minutes and then go into the antistatic sleeves. This seems to work for me. There is no sticking when you pull them out. And its also only on the TT for about 40 minutes. I also would run an extra wire from the bearing sump on the conventional TT's to ground them better. The Verdier which uses magnets for levitation (no thrust bearing) for some reason its not as affected. I don't know why. Maybe someone can better explain the phenomena. For those of you using a regular brush on the record try grounding yourself with your other hand when using it. I was in Arizona about 10 years ago near Phoenix attending a conference. We went to a bar at night. You went through this Western style gate and everything was open - no roof; but were surrounded by these horizontal pipes maybe 1 inch in diameter ? - hanging above our heads. A thin jet mist of cool water was spraying out of the pores in the pipe on us. After a while I realized we could not have stayed there long without the spray. |
I have a Loricraft - hardly used it - too much work Bought a KL Audio in Dec 2013. I have cleaned about 1/4 of my extensive collection and can effortlessly clean a few things I want to hear at a moments notice Static and pops and clicks are nearly gone, brush and use zerostat only on the worst days (precaution only) No need to rewash a cleaned, quality sleeved, and properly handled record LAST is the last thing you want on your records. It provides a permanent bond with impurities that partially break down. The ultrasonic cleaners clean out the grooves, LAST coats the grooves initially providiing a smooth surface. I know a few victims of Last Preservative. |
Albert, if you like the Premier cleaner, then buy it here like I do: http://www.all-spec.com/products/MCCCCC.html It's the EXACT SAME STUFF as Premier and as you can see, much less expensive! I understood it is more a replacement for carbon tetrachloride than for freon. It's a better solvent than either of them IMO; it dries fast (too fast!) and leaves NO residue. It's especially great for cleaning electronics too -- especially that stuff you're afraid to use most cleaners on, like tube sockets! (I don't actually use it on records anymore.) . |
Another thing about the desert air (at least the low desert here in S. California) is the amount of dirt in it, blown around by the winds. Since there is little ground cover, there are actual dust storms when it gets windy. Even with all the windows shut (to keep the heat out, if for no other reason), there is dust everywhere, and the house has to be cleaned way more frequently than in L.A. |
What a cute breed some of you are. Thanks Dawg .... My wife stopped calling me cute a few years ago. I think when I decided I didn't want to work for a boss anymore. You know I kind of miss it. I will take what I can get. I suppose, you never clean your shoes either or maybe once. Since you are asking..... My black shoes hang in the closet. They only get a little dusty. I use a carbon fiber brush on them, If I want them to be really shiny, I put some peanut butter on them and call over Koaltar my running buddy These days my main shoes look like this. They are good for 500 miles. So they get changed out every couple months. There is no need for cleaning. They become walking shoes when their time is up. Inna If anyone has a friend looking to get into vinyl. Show him the picture on that website. If he still decides to get involved, he deserves everything that's coming to him. Inna - I don' think that brush can remove everything. Imagine, as an example, that while playing records you sometimes smoke or cook. You'll get some of that stuff on your records. A friend got me a brush available through ebay in Japan that works on two AA's. Its great at removing lint. You hold it on the record as it spins. It works like a vacuum cleaner. This is for records that have already been cleaned properly and are stored in a proper sleeve. For Daily use. Cooking dramatically changes humidity levels. If you want to stop paying someone else to mix fluids for you I can tell you how to make a solution that can be tailored to the humidity in the room. My email is on my system page link. Happy Thanksgiving to my American friends |
I give each new acquisition a thorough cleaning (currently with the Audio Desk Systeme) and I rarely find a need to clean the record again. I suppose some light dust may deposit on the record while it is playing, but, that stuff is pushed out of the way by the stylus and has no impact on the sound. I don't lightly brush my records before or after each playing because I don't think that most brushes do anything but move around the dust on the top surface of the record and INCREASE the static charge on the surface. I also keep my platter very clean and I cover the platter when the player is not in use (I use an old Charlie Rich album someone gave me for that purpose). I have not noticed any increase in noise or other obvious degradation in sound quality of my records even after repeated playing. If maintenance of the records, stylus and player were as elaborate and demanding as some seem to make it, I would have given up on records a long time ago. |
Dougdeacon, it's good to know about totally silent records. I just never thought of that. But I always listen for the clarity first and noise second. I don' think that brush can remove everything. Imagine, as an example, that while playing records you sometimes smoke or cook. You'll get some of that stuff on your records. In any case, it appears that the old guard here agree that at least some records do need re-cleaning from time to time. But I don't envy those who have thousands of records that just might need re-cleaning. Out of curiosity I just cleaned a few records that I cleaned a few days ago and played a few times. I didn't hear a difference. I use Okki Nokki machine and Audio Intelligent three step cleaning solutions, and I have a modest rig, though it is quite sensitive to whatever you change. Not this time. |
Dougdeacon, 5-10% is a lot, especially if they are your favourite records.Agreed. That was an off-the-cuff guesstimate. Actual # is probably lower. It is hard for the records not to get contaminated to a degree while playing, the environment is not sterileOther than trace amounts of airborne dust, which is easily removed by de-static and dry brush, what sources of contamination are there? I de-static and brush each side immediately after it's played. It's rare for anything at all to come off the record. I also re-cleaned and re-rinsed repeatedly when first developing my regimen. The final form of the regimen (which includes 2 ultra pure water rinses) produced results that additional cleanings/rinses almost never improved upon. And how do you know that the first cleaning was perfect unless you clean again?I use my ears, which are well trained. I can listen to most any record (in my system) and tell you whether it needs cleaning, or not. I did so many times while developing my cleaning regimen. I've since done it while entertaining friends and their (supposedly) clean records. What to listen for? It's not surface noise or the lack thereof, except in this unexpected sense: a totally silent record surface indicates that the record grooves are NOT perfectly clean. A perfectly clean groovewall has imperfections that are audible in a good system. Those imperfections are the first thing masked by any layer of contamination. If I hear them, the record is clean. If I don't, it isn't. Once the last layer of contamination is removed, the record will play with the fullest possible micro-dynamics and clarity. Since we don't always know what those should be on an unfamiliar record, they're a secondary indicator, although of course they're a primary source of enjoyment (certainly more than groovewall noise, lol). Hope that clarifies. |
Dear Albert, Very frightening story about the steel bristle. Certainly I'd heard that fragments of tungsten steel from the grinder blades when reprocessing old vinyl were not uncommon but never encountered one as up close and personal as you did. :( (We've probably all heard one or two smaller ones though...) It's unlikely we'd ever dislodge these particles, embedded as they are, in most cases. (Well, not without making the vinyl as unplayable as before) One album I encountered had a small clearance hole drilled through the playing area. It reinforces the idea that a quick inspection before playing is highly recommended ;^) |
Here are some points I will add to what has already been posted here. The Last company did indeed make a product that was advertised as mold release and it was eventually banned because it was a Freon compound which was a great cleaning agent but believed to cause harm to our ozone layer. Today there is a product called Premier and it is similar to Freon in it’s ability to clean but approved to not harm the atmosphere. I have both products and they work about equally. There may or may not be anti stick compounds sprayed onto vinyl records during pressing. I've been told by several people that it was common practice at one time, especially when there were issues with vinyl quality. There was a time when Vinyl was recycled and there were sometimes debris visible poking out of the grooves. I’ve seen it myself, the worst of all was a broken scrubber bristle (metal) which cut my finger as I tried to scrape it off the album. Can you imagine what that would have done to a good cartridge? As for cleaning beyond First (the cleaner from Last) I've owned Nitty Gritty, VPI, Odyssey RCM, Audio Desk and KL Audio. Yes is the answer to, "Does cleaning more than one time help sound." I have old LPs that have been cleaned with all these machines and the last two, Audio Desk and KL Audio and both of these cleaning machines brought performance up enough that all the listeners in the room commented. If I had to pick only one machine as my forever record cleaner, it would be the KL Audio Ultrasonic and fill only with NERL Reagent grade water, with or without cleaning ahead of time with another product. I will throw in another thought here. There were times when people believed that adding fluids to their Discwasher or spraying LPs with silicone treatment (labeled cleaner) was a great idea. It may have reduced tracking noise with those old picnic player single speaker record machines but years later all that gunk is still attached to the LP. I suspect some of us have a few of those LPs in our collection because at that time there were some great classical, jazz and even pop music and that was the only format of that period. Some records are really dirty, some have never been cleaned and it’s a real eye opener when you do a before and after with one. Heck, my pristine Blue Note reissues from Music Matters and Acoustic Sounds benefit from my KL Audio even though they appear perfect. |
Another Almost Never. I have both a Loricraft and a Nitty Gritty, and it's probably been a year since I last used either one. I do clean LPs that are really dirty but for normal records including most Ebay and used record store purchases, I just follow my regular routine of brushing each record with an antistatic brush and wiping the stylus with the brush that came with my Benz. How we spend our leisure time obviously differs from one person to the next. For me this one is pretty simple: Time spent cleaning records is time spent not listening to them. |
