Soix
Thank you so much for your feedback and kind words. I really appreciate it :).
It's been a work in progress for sure and I can't wait to get them here and all set up. I have tracking numbers for the amps and the speakers are going out today so I am super excited.
For anyone curious I bought the speakers & amps from World Wide Wholesales in Ontario Canada and I live in Massachusetts and it was a super smooth, fun and an easy process. I worked with Bob and he is a riot and a total audiophile and it was awesome. He also took a couple trades that he gave me surprisingly real strong values on. Awesome-Awesome guy so I thought to give him a well deserved shout out to my fellow Audiogon comrades!
http://worldwidewholesales.com/ |
Congrats. To me, this was a textbook way to search for and buy speakers even though ironically it started out as a search for a new amp. Initially I was going to ask if you looked at another brand, but after reading what you've done here there's no point to the question anymore. You did research and found a speaker that hits on all your important notes, and you found a way to hear a couple different models to determine if they actually rock your world, which they obviously do. And, you bought an amp that will work synergistically with your speakers so you get the most out of them and lets you continue to use a tube amp, which was another one of your desires. Combine this with the fact that these speakers seem to couple with rooms more easily than many, and the possibility of failure has been minimized if not completely eliminated. Well done, and too bad more audiophiles don't take the time or have the opportunity to do what you did here. Let us know how it works out once you have everything set up and broken in (sounds like the latter could take a while). |
Haven't heard these speakers but here's a link to an audio store in Nashville that sells them - have no affiliation to them http://www.atelier13-usa.com/#!rethm/c6bo |
Well it sounds like you are walking that fine line of balance that we all try to attain, the perfect balance of resolution and musicality.
Good luck, and keep us posted on how you make out once the gear arrives. |
Hi Jmcgrogan2
Thanks so much for the response!
An acquaintance of a former co-worker friend was kind enough to let us listen to them but they were the last / older version of the Saadhana speakers sometimes labeled as the V2. I also got to hear the newer / current version of the model down from the Saadhana, the Rethm Maarga. I liked the Maarga A LOT and proceeded to learn all I could about this company and the designer. I learned that all of the new Rethm speakers, the current models have their own, new custom drivers and I took the shot.
After I did a lot of research and a lot of thinking I realized what I was really looking / hoping for? It is the baseline for my approach to a new speaker / amp combo search.
What I was / am hoping for is (and it is a tall order for sure):
Ultra high, pin-point clarity with reach out and touch, precise resolution is something I would love. That microscopic type of resolution and clarity that provides a real uber defined sound stage and 3d images with image separation and delineation only this type of resolution can provide. The problem is to acquire this level of clarity, resolution and neutrality one must usually also have to accept a somewhat sterile, semi-etched or analytical or non-musical presentation.
My hope is for a speaker / amp combo to approach and blend this uber level of clarity and resolution with a smooth, liquid and tube-like natural presentation that is relaxed yet also pops. One that is not etched or analytical and is free from listener fatigue.
To get all of the above it will certainly need to be a creative and outside the box, unique speaker and amp combo? One that smartly and successfully blends a bunch of different technologies and topologies into a diverse yet synergistic package. Something like the mixture of tubes and solid state and Cyro treatments with high efficiency single drivers that run wide open that have build in bass modules that support from bottom up with custom band-pass and volume controls for different room tuning to even have a chance at attaining even part of what I am after.
Now I understand no speaker is perfect and no speaker can do everything for everyone. Some of the things I was willing to give up in my search were huge SBL's or super loud rock, grudge or Techno or super complex large and loud orchestra music. I want to rock out sometimes but it is not a DNA prerequisite. I don't need all word slam either but I am after full range speakers that convey it all. The bass matters and a lot it just doesn’t have to be high end Magico, Wilson, Focal, Raidho bass slam.
I want Full, Rich, Fast, NO FLAB, Accurate, Tuneful, Detailed bass with genuine feel that supports the rest of the entire frequency spectrum. I am serious about bass I just don’t need the very last word in all world slam. I am asking for a lot and maybe I will be let down. I am sort of hoping for my cake and hoping to eat it too but why not. It is yet to be seen if this is realistic or not because as we all know they need to be in your own room in your system listening to your music fully broken until he really know for sure.
Other than listening to the two sets of speakers I listed above another important decision factor was I did a lot of reading and went after as much info as I could find.
A huge fan of these speakers and I mean a huge fan is Saran Ebaen of 6moons. I understand reviews are just that reviews but Srajan has a decade into informing us about the progress of this company and its speaker line. If you read all of these reviews that took place over the last decade or so you start to get a real picture of the company and its growth and evolution and the idea that Srajan is doing more than just reviewing these speakers. He owns them and uses them and adores them and has bought each version of the Saadhana. This long term perspective gave me some great insight into how these current models came to where they are today.
Srajan really outlined where and how they came to be today. With all of my purchases I always try to do research and be smart about it and do my due diligence but I am noting this here today because I have never been giving such a long term, clear view into a product or company for any of purchase I have made and I wanted to share with you guys.
It really started and ended with me listening to these speakers and how they offered me so much of what I am looking for that had me making this decision. It did and always should come down to how they sound to you. What made the process more fun and enlightening was the great reading and insight provided by Srajan. I recommend to anyone even those not even interested in buying these speakers to read these reviews. I am a lot smarter for it. |
Very interesting.... where did you audition these?
I never heard of Rethm before, but they do sound intriguing.
Good luck, I hope it works out for you. |
Guys - Thanks so much for all of the great advice, ideas and feedback! Really - great stuff and I appreciate it! Well Here We Go - talk - about doing a total 360 - and going in a total other direction.
I am one of those guys that reads a lot and listens as much as I can to as much as I with as little free time as I have. I try to make calculated, smart, informed choices and allow my head to have a lot input in most cases but in this case I kind of shot from the hip and went with my gut / heart! Plenty of reading and some listening was def involved but it was a pretty big plunge so to speak I think.
I posted some of this info on my DAC thread but I wanted to share with you guys as it is an amp and speaker change that we were all talking about and wanted to share my change of direction with you.
Gone now are my preamps (ARC, BAT) my beloved speakers (Ascendo's) and amps (CJ's - Krell).
I have pulled the trigger on these new speakers and amps. Would love any feedback, recommendations or criticism's. I took a pretty big chance I think because my new speakers and amps are so different and such a change from where I was. They should be here later this week or early next week!
As yo know I was struggling to find the right amps for my speakers to the point of then getting into swapping speakers.
In a nutshell What I wanted was real driver control with grip, resolution, detail and great transparency that one gets from a high quality SS amp yet I also still wanted the beauty I had grown to accustomed to from my CJ tubes, the warmth and enveloping 3-D realness of tubes. I love tubes and did not want to live without that essential ingredient but I no longer could bear the trade offs. The slow and rolled off top and bottom with loosey, goosey bottom end. The 140 watt tube amp that was driving a 88 db efficient speaker with a tough Kevlar bass driver. Was I going to change speaker or amp or both.
My stated goal at this point was to try and find a speaker amp combo that could give me my tube glory and beauty I have grown so fond of but with Grip, Speed, Detail and transparency without having to spend an exorbitant amount on a monster tube amp.
I was first leaning toward Class A monster SS amps which started with this thread but not matter how good a SS amp is it is still not tubes. How do I get both. How did I get what I am after. I am not sure I have pulled it off or not but I took a shot on what I think maybe the solution.
I just went hole hog and pulled the Trigger and made the "HUGE CHANGE"!
Again, my new speakers and amps should be here later this week or early next week.
For the first time I am purchasing amps that were specifically designed and made for my speakers by the same designer from the same company. Something new for me!
That said my new speakers and a new amp are from a real small boutique company in India that I hope will allow me to pull this off:
Rethm Saadhana Speakers (2015):
The speakers are single / driver / high efficiency / wide banders with a self powered built in bass module.
Here is the info:
Rethm Saadhana Speakers (2015):
103db, 18hz-20khz, 8ohm
Minimum amplification power: 2 wpc
Full Range - Horn loaded labyrinth:(7" – 4") length
Full range driver: Custom designed 7 inch paper cone w/whizzer w/ Custom designed Self driven bass modules: 3 Bass Drivers per enclosure
3 x 6.5 inch paper cone
Sealed Isobaric chamber:
Bass labyrinth:( 4' – 8" )
w/ one monobloc per enclosure
FET amplifier
Max. output: 210 wpc @ 4 ohms
Dimensions: H x D x W : 3'-5" )x( 2'-4 ½" )x( 8.5" )
Weight per enclosure: 88 lbs
Here is the matching amp that comes in 2 boxes. 1 - box holds all the tubes and the other holds the power supply tethered by a cable. They look like mono blocks but are attached by the cable and it is an integrated, stereo amp.
Rethm Gaanam Integrated amp.
They don't list all the specs per say but here some info if your interested. It interested me enough to order these brand new speakers and amps and we have all chatted a lot so I wanted to share in the event your interested.
This is a pretty unique amp that was again voiced and designed specifically to match the speakers perfectly.
Here is the designer talking about designing the amp.
The criteria we started with were the following:
1. It had to be between 10 and 20 wpc.
2. It had to be Single Ended pure class A.
We use a unique circuit for the power amp section whereby the ONLY tubes are the output tubes. No gain stage tubes, no buffer tubes, no driver tubes. The preamp section provides more than adequate gain, and instead of driver tubes, we have small, custom designed "driver transformers". This enabled us to get a beautiful sound that had all the warmth and dimensionality that makes valves so unique, while enabling a clarity and dynamic that is not often found in traditional valve amplifiers. To enhance control, we decided on a solid state buffer in this amplifier. We also have zero feedback.
After much experimenting with several valve types, we settled on a single-ended configuration using the 6C33C valve. It produces 16 wpc. The 6C33C valve is, on technical spec's itself, an amazing valve. It has an extremely high Trans-conductance value ( in excess of 30 mA/V -- as compared to the 12.5 of a KT 120 ) which facilitates much better current flow. And, it has an amazingly low Internal Resistance ( 130 ohms -- as compared to 3000 ohms on a KT 120 ) which is almost comparable to solid-state devices! This enables a much higher speed of signal voltage transfer. It also has very low anode voltages ( 120 v -- as compared to most valves that go from a few hundred volts to in excess of 1000 v in the case of the 845 valve ) -- which makes it a much safer device.
The preamp section uses two 6922 valves, one per channel, and uses an extremely simple circuit. The power supply is choke regulated, and here again, we have zero feedback.
We also get all our transformers (the output transformers, driver transformers, power transformer and choke) cryogenically treated as we see a substantial improvement in performance with greater transparency, detail retrieval and delicacy to the reproduction.
Wish me luck guys. I hope this takes my rig to the next level.
Again, Any advice or feedback, criticism or anything is always really appreciated.
I know this started as a Clayton thread but you guys have been great and I wanted to share with you the direction I chose and why? Its scary and exciting at the same time and I think its part of what makes this hobby great!
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I see we have gone a long way past the amp recommendations. Allow me to throw my two cents in.
You like tubes and power. You love your CJs. You want some bass control. You would prefer to buy used like so many of us.There are several ways to go here. You like Manley gear. I would like to recommend the VTL MB-300 that are used on the Gon right now. They have all you truly need, and power to drive about anything. I have a pair, and I am delighted. The only caveat is you should replace the filter capacitors ($40x4 from Digi-Key) and do a couple CHEAP factory updates since they don't seem to have been done... and wallah, you've got your new amps. They are incredibly underrated also very inexpensive, and there is no question they are more powerful than the Manley 250. Granted the Manley has the EL-34 but you won't miss that. The amps will be dead quiet once the old filter caps are replaced.
I wanted Claytons myself, but I didn't get them. Holding out for Pass Labs, but I'm happy with my tubes, and I have a lot of them. I have both ARC Ref 610t and VTL Wotans, in addition to ARC Classic 150s, and the MB-300. (I obviously like tubes.). You should be able to sell your CJ for what the VTL will cost you... |
"06-02-15: Joeinid
Class D has gotten so much better, but in my opinion suffers from sort of a one-note bottom (some are better than others). Plenty of bass in Class D but not as much articulation and differentiation as from better solid state."
............................................................
I have to disagree with your bass remark. I believe you when you say some class D amps can have a 'one note bass' bottom end,but so do some tube amps and some A/AB amps I have heard over the years. I don't think it is so much the class of amp distinction per se... but rather the design implementation used in the amp.
I own the Merrill Audio Veritas mono block amps which are a class D design. These amps do the bass range like no other amp I have ever heard. They slam with total articulation of the lower registers... Of course I have not heard all amps out there but what the Merrills do is simply beyond reproach.
|
There's no free lunch. Tubes and solid state will never sound the same.
Class D has gotten so much better, but in my opinion suffers from sort of a one-note bottom (some are better than others). Plenty of bass in Class D but not as much articulation and differentiation as from better solid state.
I am enjoying a Devialet D400, a hybrid Class A and Class D design. My D400 can not take place of my CJ GAT/ART monos, but it's a nice change and runs cooler for the peak summer months.
I often enjoy a tube preamp and SS amp or the opposite too. Tubes give the that tremendous 3D, depth, width, bloom, sweetness and air that no solid state can give you. On the other hand, SS give you that tight fisted control over bass and no tube worry.
My Devialet D400 as a dac/preamp into my CJ amps sounds amazing too. It's great to have options to help you appreciate what gear you truly love.
I love my Class A (Pass XA60.5's) on my SF Strads and Harbeth 40.1's, especially with my GAT tube preamp.
Nothing is perfect, I love and look for a great treble and midrange. I'll give up a little on the bass to get that musicality that I love. |
I have no dog in this fight, but even if they share some common parts other elements are usually different. For instance capacitors vary widely with regard to SQ and which resistors you use, and the ratings of those components can differ. They may look a lot alike but be quite different. That is giving them the benefit of the doubt.
Arguing for the same except for the casework is the generally accepted knowledge that the case work in general and faceplates in particulars are frequently the most expensive element in an amp. |
"What do you guys think about the guy that builds the Hypex Ncore amps James Romeyn.
They seem like a great deal and are pretty much the same as the $4800 Thor from Merrill just without the fancy case."
No they are NOT the same. Different modules. |
That is good advice Bill K.
I owned the M300s for several years and sold them last year. I currently own the Atsah NC1200 monos and a very tricked out McCormack/SMc DNA-2 LAE. So, I have had Class A, Class D and very good Class A/B amps all within a year. They are all very close in power ratings and not far separated in price. I still can't decide whether to keep the Class D monos or the Class A/B amp.
If I still owned the M300s the only thing that would change is that I wouldn't be able to decide between three amps, instead of between two amps. All of these are excellent sounding amplifiers, near the top of their class, and I suspect I would be happy with any of them but, they do sound different from each other. Listening with your own speakers is a really good idea to be sure of what you are getting. |
I would strongly suggest that you audition such an amp with your speakers, as they sound very different from the Class A bias amps that you have so far seemed to have a preference for. Not that they sound bad like some older Class D designs, just that they're different than Class A. |
What do you guys think about the guy that builds the Hypex Ncore amps James Romeyn.
They seem like a great deal and are pretty much the same as the $4800 Thor from Merrill just without the fancy case. If these sound the same or almost as good as the Merrill Thors these seem like one the best amp deals going? Would love your advice. They used the exact same amps and power supply and internal wireing just different cash and maybe terminations. They have crazy power and everyone says they sound amazing. Super quite, crazy powerful with super low distortion. Paired with a great source and real hi quality cabling and a very high quality speaker these seem like it could be special? Am I wrong? Thanks |
I second the recommendation to try the Merrill amps. They have other models at lower price points than the Veritas. And there are several other Hypex Ncore-based amps out there. |
Sbank / Spencer
No doubt - I agree :) !!! |
Taking this whole conversation into account, it sounds like you sure better settle on a speaker that is designed for use with a moderately powered tube amp(s), and not decide on amp until you get the speaker figured out. Your CJs with new speaker will certainly be an acceptable interim while you look for the amp of choice (tube or SS). Cheers,
Spencer |
Balanced interconnects-look at Grover Huffman. Really good at many things. |
The model of the Krell mentioned, the 200s, was one of the first of Krell's amps that had a "sustained plateau" bias--definitely not a class A amp. It was not the class A KSA 200, which was two models before that (and a much better-sounding amplifier, IMHO). |
From my recollection of that vintage KSA, they were Class A amps? Yes, a bit dark in some respects like my former Gryphon Antileon (also pure Class A, 100 watts), which is probably similar vintage. But where i found the older Krells relative to other amps i have since heard is that i felt there seemed to be [a bit] of grain.
But yes, I agree, the KSA 50, KSA200 were not from what i recall tinny, bright, cold amps at all. Things did change as time went on, but not that particular generation. |
So it sounds as if the Clayton M300's are for you then. They will have more bass slam, like that Krell, plus the refinement of the Clayton. |
I loved the S40 and would have bought it but after listening after a couple days a channel went out. Kind of stinks because the amp was just back from the factory and had full rebuilt and improved special power supply at the factory with the same power supply of the 200 and it was great. It was sweet like a tube amp, also a bit dark but I liked it a lot and was a happy camper with it. I went down during a few day audition and i never heard back from the dealer. It may still be out getting fixed he said he will me when it gets back. The Krell was a couple towns away so I wanted to try it. Love to try local stuff when I can because so rare. oh I like the S40 better but it couldn't grab the drivers like that freek Krell. That said overall the S40 is more refined and more up my alley. If this Krell was a little less dark and had more of the refinement of the S40 that would be my best amp. I still prefer tubes no doubt but with the kind of speakers I am using to get this type of tube performance its very expensive.
I would love to try the Merrill Audio class d amps. They use that new amazing modular Hypecore thing class d that is supposed to the best new tech in all of audio for amps. Expensive though also. Trying to stay in that $3kish used price range for now. I am def making a speaker change. I love my speaker but to properly drive them I need the type of amp that I don'y love or have grown tired of trying. |
Frank, did you hear the Krell in your system? Charles raises the most important point: amp & speaker matching.
If so, how do compare the sound of the Krell vs the Clayton? If you heard the Krell w/different speakers, it's really easy to draw inappropriate conclusions. You were in love w/Claytons a few weeks ago, so what's changed?
FWIW, that vintage Krell I believe was when they were getting their highest accolcades, before Dan D. left the company. So one could argue that might be the best sounding Krells, along with the slightly older KSA-250.
The Pass Labs and hybrid Lamms still sound like what you are after IME. Another more budget friendly option is the Odyssey monoblocks.
In other threads you ponder speaker changes. Whatever you decide, please go with an amp and speakers that you've heard together or you have strong reason to believe will be symbiotic together. Cheers,
Spencer |
Fsmithjack,if you really want to hear what SS can do in 2015,as I have already mentioned,look into the Merrill Audio class d amps.
I owned an Edge NL10,which I really,really liked.Its gone and the Merrill Veritas is firmly ensconced in its place. The Veritas just plain crushed the Edge amp in every sonic parameter.Grip and control like a steel trap and at the same time nuanced like a butterfly in flight...Superb to the nines. |
I think what has been discovered here is this, there are certain speakers that will perform their best when powered by solid-state amplifiers, conversely there are certain speaker designs that will sound better when powered by tube amplifiers.The particular design of a speaker and the intent of its designer has a lot to do with which type of amplifier will sound best with a particular speaker. In this instance it seems as though this particular speaker responds better to a solid-state amplifier, you could take that same Krell amplifier and use with another speaker and it would be disappointing, it just all depends. A good quality tube amplifier will not sound too warm, fuzzy and flabby if it's mated with the appropriate speaker. |
What did you think of the S40? How did it compare to the Krell? |
Just listened to an older Krell KSA 200S amp.
Holly Smokes... Wow, I have never heard a Krell before. I thought they were cold and sterile and etched and fatiguing and flat and 2 dimensional and boring amps?
That's not what I heard at all. It had incredible control over the woofers like nothing I have ever heard and it sounds great. Smooth as can be, no etch or fatigue at all. If I had a complaint it would be that its maybe a little bit too dark sounding kinda like a BAT amp. Heck it has less bite than my CJ Tube amp and that says a ton. My CJ is the Premier 12 from old but not the too old school but still warm and romantic school.
Whats the deal here?? I really have a lot to learn about SS amps. They have a real bad rap out there. Anyone else hear this amp? Am I wrong? I think I like SS amps maybe ones just a little bit brighter and sunnier with a little more bite up top and 3d and i'm all in. Is that a Pass or a newer Krell or what?
I am kinda in no mans land here being a loyal tube guy that flabby bottom just got to me. I have never heard what a speaker sounds like when it is completely and utterly subordinate to the amp. The Krell grabs the speaker by its throat and throws it down and puts its boot on it neck and it is game over! Pretty cool, never heard that been busy in the land of warm and fuzzy with tubby bass but I would love to get an amp with bit more like a mentioned above with this type of muscle...
What do you guys think??? Any ideas... |
Pass labs monos of any vintage. Same league as the Claytons but mosfets instead of bi-polar outputs. Not as much low volume bass, but I think they sound better wide open than the Claytons do. |
Congrats and glad to hear! Good luck with the demo. Sounds promising! |
I have a Clayton S40 on demo from a local dealer and it is awesome. Man I never knew a SS amp could this much like a tube amp but better. It has a factory modded power supply that has been beefed up so that may help it but this Clayton gear is pretty excellent. A little dark and maybe just a tad rolled off at the tip-pity top but still a refined and very pretty amp... It has killer PRAT to boot. Very fast as well and charging but smooth. |
Have you heard from anyone that they've heard C8s driven with "tight grip on the bottom" that you seek? If so, what amps did they use to do so? That's a key question for you. Cheers,
Spencer Sbank, I think this might have stated already in this thread (& maybe not?) but Ascendo's driven by a CAT JL2 has that "tight grip on the bottom end" but it means a lot of outlay of money to acquire that amp (which seems to be out of the budget of the OP).... |
Frank,
Before you drown the baby in the bath water re-read your old praise of the C8s.
IMHO, "The grip I want to control that fat, stubborn, internal Kevlar driver is gonna prob cost me my rich, lush, fatty, warm enveloping, 3d sound stage that is awfully addicting" you just described the pros/cons of the Premier 12s.
If possible, ply your pals with food & drink and get them to either bring their speakers to your place to try w/the amps or bring the amps to theirs and try them w/the Andras, etc. IME, Andras (I not III) needed lots of power and current to reveal their potential and I would be surprised if an 80w tube amp could do it well.
Have you heard from anyone that they've heard C8s driven with "tight grip on the bottom" that you seek? If so, what amps did they use to do so? That's a key question for you. Cheers,
Spencer |
04-15-15: Onhwy61: your right prob could very well be opening another can of worms. Ugghhh
Hey Spencer,
Ya struggling a bit here for sure... lol
If I can't find the right amp and not sure I can then it may just be easier to get a better matching set of speakers.
I know it seems like throwing the baby out with the bath water but my CJ's are not SETs they push out 140 watts and sound just like butta. The grip I want to control that fat, stubborn, internal Kevlar driver is gonna prob cost me my rich, lush, fatty, warm enveloping, 3d sound stage that is awfully addicting. Once into big tubes that sound this nice its hard to give up but its all about give and take unless you real long coin then you can have it all which I don't have... My bud has a super neutral, newer, ss based, higher end rig and we both agree that other than that dang bass driver my sounds wonderful more musical and really to state is plainly better. It doesn't tic all the little boxes like his but the whole seems to add to more than the sum of its parts. I guess I need to give some credit of my likeable system to my Bricasti, CJ's, Darwin, PAD and not over credit Ascendo.
Might just say pull the trigger and keep my amps and trade my Ascendo's grab a pair of EgglestonWorks Andra III and be done with it. My other work bud drives his an 80 watt tube amp and they sound amazing. 8ohm, 88 efficient my do the trick... Atleast I won't have to mess with my dang interconnects again...lol. Ya I am all over the place but just don't want to screw it up... |
Frank,
You might be missing the significance of Al's last post (and Atmasphere's linked comments) that your cable differences might not be as great in this instance, hence Mogami XLR probably can do the trick at low cost.
Trying your adapters won't hurt, too.
One of those options should be good enough to satisfy and you can always upgrade to balanced Darwins etc. down the road.
I checked the thread figuring you would have bought the Claytons by now based on our phone conversation, but laughed when I saw so many more considerations raised.
FWIW, I agree that adding transformers and extra sets of cables is to be avoided if possible. Cheers,
Spencer |
So we're going to have to pry your Darwin interconnects from your cold, dead hands?
If the impact of cables is so "huge" then what makes you think the best cable with your CJ amp will still be the right choice with the Clayton? You might have to jump down the cable rabbit hole one more time and repeat all that hard work. In the intervening time period when you are listening to music it won't hurt to use the adapters, it just won't be the optimal setup. |
Awesome info guys thanks.
I will ideally like to drive direct form Bricasti and I understand that buying Balanced interconnects is the best way and I will prob at some point but they are pretty expensive. Also, the Bricasti and my preamp are balanced but I have $2500 for 2 interconnects and the balanced version is about $3k. I know I can and prob still sell my singles and by balanced but its a factor.
I have bought and sold thousands and thousands of dollars worth of doe on different speaker cables, interconnects and power cables and could never just buy blue jean interconnects till I could afford more.
I have found in my experience that interconnects have a huge - huge impact on the sound quality. Huge. I know tons of people don't believe in cables and don't want to go there but I am not one of them. I worked really hard at getting my cable to where I have them and prefer not have to get back on that merry go round if can be avoided. Prob enough in itself to not go with the Claytons.
My Darwin Truth IC's out performed Nordost Valhalla's and Cardas Gold Reference and Cardas Clear and there were tons of lesser ones in there both these where the ones I liked the best before they were beaten out straight up by the outstanding Darwin's.
So do you guys don't think there is a shot of rolling with just XLR adapters using the Bricasti direct to the Claytons. Looks like a good amount of work is going to be needed to use these amps in my system does't that seem correct? As always thanks guys.
Was hoping might be able to keep everything the same and plug away with the XLR to RCA Cardas Clear adapters that are good quality that I used with a BAT VK600SE a year or so ago that worked nice. Thx |
Is Frank not planning to drive the amps from a single-ended preamp? I thought that was why he was talking about adapters. If he will drive the amps directly from the Bricasti, or from a balanced preamp, then you are absolutely correct, he should simply use balanced cables. |
All good points by those who have responded following my post above. I'll add, assuming that the amps are to be directly driven by the M1, that the M1's very low output impedance will act in the direction of reducing sensitivity to cable effects and cable differences. And use of a balanced XLR-to-XLR connection between the M1 and the Claytons might in itself do likewise, depending on how the design of the Clayton's input circuit handles the ground connection on pin 1 of the XLR connector. In fact I wouldn't rule out the possibility, for that specific application, that if given a thorough and unbiased assessment a pair of inexpensive Mogami Gold Studio XLR-to-XLR cables might do just as well as cables selling for $thousands. See the post by Atmasphere here, and his responses to my follow-up questions later in that thread. Regards, -- Al |
Is Frank not planning to drive the amps from a single-ended preamp? I thought that was why he was talking about adapters. If he will drive the amps directly from the Bricasti, or from a balanced preamp, then you are absolutely correct, he should simply use balanced cables. |
I've used the Jensen transformers and they definitely work, but why bother? Just get a set of Mogami or Canare balanced cables to start and wait until you can spring for a set of audiophile approved and priced cables. |
selling dealer said those will work fine He is wrong. These amps need a balanced signal that you will not get through an adaptor. In addition to the Jensen transformers that Al mentions above, and that I used, K&K sells a Lundahl version that plugs directly into the XLR input on the amp. Both should work fine, but the Lundahl version would negate the need for a second set of very short XLR ICs. If you do get the Jensen version, get two of the mono style (PI-RX) so you can sit one next to each amp. You will then need two quite short XLR to XLR ICs to run from the transformers to your amps. I have a pair if you are interested. Otherwise, try the Lundahl version that doesn't need the second IC. Also, there are impedance matching issues with the transformers. The issue benefits from the Clayton's high'ish 100K ohm input impedance but you should still try to use a preamp that has a low output impedance. I was mostly using a Tom Evans preamp with an output impedance of less than 100 ohms but I did also use a Lamm LL2 and it sounded very good as well. If specific questions about matching with your gear, talk to the folks at Jensen or K&K. |
Fsmithjack,
Sounds like you've been busy! Glad to see Eric was helpful. Regarding your choices, I got a PM from someone on this thread who was concerned the CJs may not have enough current or something to drive your specific speakers. Hence, why your speaking with CJ is critical. Regarding the other 2 options, both appear to have strong support here, but not having heard either...i cannot say.
In truth, if bass control is your goal (while not sacrificing the elements of your CJ you love), that is a level of sound quality that bears serious consideration before you buy. More bass control but with different mid-range tonal qualities is different...that can probably be 'guestimated' but your goals are [of course!] to have both. Have you spoken with your speaker manufacturer by any chance about these 3 options? |
Since your Bricasti M1 DAC is a fully balanced design as well, I think it would be foolish to use the RCA outputs and an adapter to feed the Clayton amps. If you already have expensive RCA cables I would recommend selling them and getting similar quality XLR cables. It will be well worth it for the performance gain. Bricasti uses their DAC with their amps wired directly with XLR cables and the resulting performance is superb! |
Fsmithjack, in general adapters may or may not work ok depending on the specific designs of the components that are being connected. In this case the comments made earlier in the thread by Tim (Mitch2) indicate that they will NOT work ok. But note his suggestion of a Jensen transformer, which can convert a single-ended signal to a true balanced signal pair. Their model PI-RX (similar to the PI-XX shown here except with RCA input connectors), can and should be placed very close to the amp. You could then use a very short length of XLR cable. Nearly all interconnect cable effects are proportional to length. Therefore the short length of the XLR cable would reduce its importance, increasing the likelihood that choosing an expensive cable will be unnecessary. And of course the short length will in itself reduce the cost of the cable. I note that the Jensen site does not specifically list a PI-RX configuration, having an RCA input connector and an XLR output connector, but I'm pretty certain they can supply that configuration on special order. It would cost a bit more than $300 for the two transformers you would require. Good luck. Regards, -- Al |
04-11-15: Jmcgroga
Thanks
On the Claytons M300 monos they are Balanced XLR input only!
I don't have any balanced interconnects yet and as we all know real good ones are quite expensive. More than my pre I'm trying to hold onto. I have the real nice Caras Clear XLR to RCA adapters and the selling dealer said those will work fine but read elsewhere that if I use adapters they make a wicked hum? Anyone know if this is the case or do you think the adapters will work fine? Any input would really be appreciated!! Thanks so much !!! |
Well, the Plinius SA-103 is nice, but it's no Clayton M300.
You said you needed the power, 125 wpc is not 300 wpc.
I would go with the Clayton M300 mono's, sell you BAT VK-30 and look for a VAC, Aesthetix , or ARC preamp. All three are more resolving than BAT or CJ tube gear.
Happy hunting. |
"Clayton M300 mono's keep my BAT VK30 (older dark 6922)"
If your 6922's are dark, get some new ones. |
Denon1 & Lloydelee21 & the rest of you guys that have been great and gave me some great input:
Thank you so much I took the advice of Denon1 & Lloydelee21 and have been speaking with Eric Love quite a bit and have a trade offer on the table the table with him.
It will take a bit more to make the deal I have to add in another pre of mint to the deal than I have to with the other 2 amp deals I have already spoke about because his is a new demo with full warranty vs the Clayton M300 and the LP140 which are used. The Clayton and CJ are mono's and his is a stereo amp. The only thing is I will need to include my extra BAT VK30r w/Phono to make the deal. Not sure I would use that pre its a little older and kind of dark sounding but even with the others I was leaning toward driving direct but it was nice to know I had a back up pre to A/B with if needed and I lose that with the Plinus SA-103 but in return I get a easier to use stereo amp and a new one that is only a couple months old and it was a demo but very few hours. With full warranty. What do you guys think:
Clayton M300 mono's keep my BAT VK30 (older dark 6922)
CJ LP140 monos keep my VK30
Plinus SA-103 stereo new demo w/full warranty No BAT
Would really love to know what all you guys. Please - Thanks !!!
|
Fsmithjack,
Agree with Denon1 on Eric Love...i have bought from him twice in the past...very responsive, very straightforward. Good man.
Good luck. I am told that the LP140 do sound different from your 12s...and represent a sea change that CJ went thru around the time of the 350SA SS amp and ACT 2 preamp. After this generation, came the LP125 and the most recent ART amps which represented more of a return to the original qualities, but this time with a transparency, alacrity and bottom end grip that seemed to be derived from that 'interim' stage. This is from a long-time dealer of CJ with whom i have done business for nearly 20 years and who has always in my experience told me like it is. FWIW.
Good luck! |
