Dear @kennyc : "" it appears you’re confusing cartridge cantilever with tonearm. "
how is that, can you explain it?
"
Second, I’m referring to manufacturing inconsistencies whose point you appear to miss. ""
Why?, as I said almost any one but new comers knows how to make the TT/LP/cartridge/set up on differents alignment parameters: P2S distance, off-set angle, overhang, VTF, VTA/SRA, Azymuth, cartridge loading, TT and tonearm leveled, tonearm mounting in TT, TT plattforms, TT mats, clamps and the like.
You posted too:
"""
“optimum” cartridge setup by others is rare. When you think about a stylus in the groove, is a very minuscule stylus/diamond tilt audible? Absolutely! ""
is " rare " for you and nothing else.
"" What complicates setup is that less than perfect stylus to cantilever mating is common, and occasionally the cantilever is less than perfectly mounted. Most will align using the cartridge body which doesn’t address this less than perfect mating/mounting. """
today all but new comers knows that is not the cartridge body whom must aligned in the protractor.
What is what you want to teach/show or share in this thread that no other true analog audiophile knows?
Your answer appreciated.
R.
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Linn seems to think that the cartridge manufacturer should have
exacting manufacturing tolerances to make azimuth errors irrelevant. They are 100% correct. Too bad actual cartridges don't hold up to this ideal. |
@rauliruegas
You could have simply Googled “turntable cartridge cantilever” then look at the illustrations/pics, but I’ll try to explain in words.
Generally, turntable cartridge is constructed with body (shell), coils, magnets, suspension (for cantilever), cantilever, stylus (diamond), and I guess adhesive. The cantilever is that stick on which the stylus (diamond) is attached with some sort of adhesive.
The tonearm is what you attach the cartridge to on one side, the turntable to the other. Google “turntable tonearm”.
You’re still missing the point of manufacturing inconsistencies. 99.99..% of any manufacturing is NOT 100% consistently accurate- there’s always some variations. While computer tolerances can be controlled to get tighter/better tolerances (accuracy), one can never achieve a consistent 100%. This is common manufacturing knowledge. Also, it’s also common knowledge that computer controlled manufacturing is significantly more accurate that manual (by hand) manufacturing.
Imagine that a seasoned cartridge artisan is looking under a microscope fixing some adhesive (like a dab of glue), then placing the stylus (diamond) on top of the glue. Construction under a microscope is no easy task. The stylus is NOT mounted a consistent 90 degrees front to back AND side to side, there’s always some minute variation. Also, the stylus is NOT mounted perfectly parallel to the cartridge body and there are some left/right variations. With a large enough cartridge sample and a microscope, you can easily see these variations.
Google “turntable cartridge stylus microscope pics” - maybe this will help you to realize stylus to cantilever mounting can easily be less than perfect.
If you still don’t understand this, I can’t help you.
So, are these cartridge construction inconsistencies audible? Yes. These teeny tiny electrical signals are being amplified many times to line level (so a preamplifier can use) then multiplied many times again (amplifier) before hitting your speakers. The more transparent your system, the easier to hear these differences.
Are these cartridge construction inconsistencies important? That’s a subjective judgement question. As mentioned before, you can get good to great sound using the tools/methodologies mentioned, and for some/most that may be good enough.
But to “optimize” (get the very best sound) you have to get your specific cartridge’s “stylus” to be “perfectly” parallel to the groove, “perfectly” perpendicular 90 degrees from the front, and 92 degrees from the side.
When using a cartridge protractor you’re indexing (comparing) to either the cartridge body or the cartridge cantilever. This method “assumes” that the stylus is perfectly mounted parallel to the body/cantilever which is not the case because of manufacturing variations. It may be “good enough” but not “optimal”.
I’m not arguing that “P2S distance, off-set angle, overhang, VTF, VTA/SRA, Azymuth...”, is not important- it all matters. But if you want to “optimize”, you’ll have to spend considerable time/effort to go further.
Cartridge “optimization” is typically not known/performed by most, but for seasoned audio professionals like dealers, and seasoned audiophiles especially with Uber systems, or audiophiles trying to maximize performance, this is fairly common knowledge.
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How about the Audio Technica ART7?
It's $1200...
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Dear @kennyc : All of us know that the builded cartridges on the cantilever/stylus tip atached are not 100% perfect and from several years now that microscpic video you mentioned was already see it.
What you maybe don’t take in count is that the stylus tip in a pivoted tonearm even if it’s aligned " cartridge’s “stylus” to be “perfectly” parallel to the groove, “perfectly” perpendicular 90 degrees from the front, and 92 degrees from the side. "" the stylus tip can’t rides the groove modulations with precission due to the tracking error and only at null points can do it but even that and at microscopic levels the stylus tip always is jumping during the groove modulations tracking task.
So what are you trying to share?, all what you posted is know but audiophiles.
We have to align the cartridge with the higher accuracy levels we can and that’s all we can do it.
In the other side the several any kind of distortions/noises/resonances developed trough the cartridge tracking inside the cartridge it self and along the ones developed by the tonearm and TT as the feedback from there and from the LP surface into the cartridge and the fact that the stylus tip can’t pick up all the recorded information in those LP grooves makes that you can’t discern if what you are listening is because you have a " problem " with that 92 or that 90 degrees or because all those distorions developed during playing.
There are and exist a lot of issues on what we are listening trhough our analog rig.
In the other side the LP it self comes with several imperfections that add more trouble in our " perfect " alignments and each LP comes with different imperfections even in the same title.
So what do you want to do with all those? to make an alignment correction at each single LP or even at each track on each LP?
Maybe that could be your target but certainly not mine.
Now, you said that if I don't understand then you can explain me, well I need an explanation ( I think you are talking of your first hand experiences . ):
How do you mantain exactly those 90 degrees ( which groove do you choice to make the alignment and why and where in the LP surface and with which LP. ? ) and 92 degress at each single groove because I understand that the cartridge has a suspension/compliance mechanism and all those imperfections I talked about?
R. |
Dear @tyray : "
Do you use any vacuum tube gear in your system? ""
Not any more, I used full tube electronics for more than 10 years till I learned that the inherent limitations of tube alternative can´t honor the LP reproduction and not even the digital one.
I'm a MUSIC lover not hardware lover.
"" Are you an expert in all things turntable? ""
Certainly not, each single day I try to follow learning and as a fact through this and other internet forums I do it.
R. |
Dear @mijostyn : "
I hate to say this but that turntable system? is a mess. You need to clean that up. A record clamp that massive is not necessary with vacuum hold down. ""
well that's your opinion ( I mean your first hand experiences with. ) because my first hand experiences with any vacuum hold down mechanism (including other than in my system. ) told me that almost any weigth/clamp a top makes a difference for the better because the vacuum can't stop the resonances developed between the LP surface and the stylus tip the feedback in between exist during playing and any clamp helps to change the frequency of those resonances and to lower its level and you can listen the differences there testing with and with out the clamp.
R. |
Dear friends all of you: I sended an email to J.Alaerts and VDH, I´m customer of both cartridge design true EXPERT manufacturers not new comers or rookies. I asked about cartridge importance against tonearm importance in an analog rig and this is what they answer me: ALLAERTS: From: J.Allaerts Date: jueves, 13 de agosto de 2020 09:19 a. m. For: rauliruegas@hotmail.com <rauliruegas@hotmail.com> Asunto: RE Allaerts , Hi Raul , I think that the cartridge is 500 % more important is as the arm , the arm is only the tool that must keep the cartridge on his position , no more no less , and also that is important that for my cartridges the masa from the arm can have 10 Gr , weight cartridges , if this is correct its only to adjust the arm correct and you can play , but for music and dynamic range and accurate , is the cartridge the most important piece , better , the cartridge is the source and first in line , so actually the MOST IMPORTANT PIECE from a High Tech installation , don’t let you involve with some other explanations , OK, Best Regards Jan. """
When I lended my Allaerts MC2 Finish Gold to M.Fremer for review was because I asked before to Stereophile why no Allaerts cartridge review and they told me that they asked for review sample two times but Allaerts always was and still is back ordered.
Any gentleman that wants to buy a MC2 Formula 1 needs to send payment in advance ( around 20K. ) and wait 3-6 months to receive his cartridge.
Allaerts does not needs advertazing or reviews, normally is back_ordered in the two top cartridge models.
here you can read the specs of the Formula 1:
TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS MC2 Formula One Casing Manually milled and drilled aluminium. Special prepare for Gold coated 100 µmm Cover0,3 mm thick, coated with 24 ct. gold foil. Color Gold colored finish 24 ct Kobalt. Terminals Soft iron, shaped by grinding and milling.
Special prepare for Gold coated 100 µmm Connector pins1,3 mm x 20 mm, 14 ct. solid gold pins. Screw bushes2.5 mm brass threaded bushes mounded into casing. Magnet Permanent. (Cat.: rare earth magnet) Samarium-CobaltPower : max. BH (Kj/m3°) 280 Coil2 mm x 2 mm, Teflon Type c 1005 + Coil windings20 micron gold handwinding wire +Stylus holderSolid Boron rod: 0,3 mm x 7 mm.Angle of stylus in holder: 0°. Stylus tipTIP FG-S High Tech diamond, highly polished finish.Rounded radius 4 micron. Shock absorptionHigh Tech Rubber, 120 SCHORTension wireSteel wire spring, code 1007 +.
TECHNICAL DATA Coil impedance32 Ohm Load impedanc 845 Ohm Load capacity 150 pFStylus pressure1.8 grams, Max. tolerance 0,05 gram Output voltage150 µVMax. tracing capacity>400 µmm Channel separation >70 dB at 100 Hz >60 dB at 1 KHz >70 dB at 20 KH
Frequency range 3 Hz to 150 KHzTotal THD %0.01 % Total unit weight11 grams (incl. socket screws)
It’s estimated the stylus will last between 7,000-10,000 hours. """
Btw, Jan use Yorke analog rig, Simos builds only six units by year and only on custom order.
Obviously that the Allaerts cartridge owner needs a really top SS Phonolinepreamp as is the level of CH or FM Acoustics and obviously too no single tubes down there ( this is absolutely out of question. ).
The information by VDH: " After the cartridge, the arm is the next important item on a turntable. It is therefore important what material(s) and construction are applied. Any arm transmits the mechano-acoustical energy of the cartridge and is also a mechanical resonator itself. Both effects are unpleasant because both change the replay quality in their own specific way. " this is one model I own from VDH: https://www.vandenhul.com/product/the-colibri/ Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
@rauliruegas
I was simply defining “optimum” cartridge setup means getting the stylus angles correct. There are many roads on how to get there, I’m still learning how but I listed some methods/tools that I need to further explore as mentioned in my previous post.
When you use a protractor to align your cartridge to the null points, how do you know that at these null points that the stylus is perfectly parallel to the groove and are at the correct angles, given manufacturing inconsistencies?
Also, you’re getting your angles mixed up. 90-92 degrees is measured vertically, while null points (zenith) is measured horizontal. Therefore, once vertical is set up, it should remain the same across the entire record surface.
What do you think the various angles: SRA, VTA, azimuth, zenith, is trying to achieve? Answer: to align the stylus, not the body, not the cantilever, but the stylus. Cartridge “optimization” is simply getting the best stylus to groove angles and VTF.
And no, it isn’t just my experience. I know the problem, but am still learning the solution aka I know what “optimum” is trying to achieve, but I’m still learning how to get there. I first learned the 92 degrees from Michael Fremer (Stereophile), and Jonathan Valin (The Absolute Sound) recently mentioned the 92 degrees in his current review of the DS Audio Master1 cartridge.
I’ve spent the last 4 years doing in-depth audio research to create a maximum price/performance analog+digital chain while minimizing sound quality loss. Many very serious audiophiles often with expensive highly transparent systems maximize their system’s performance including cartridge optimization. Many of these tips I’ve learned on WBF (Whats Best Forum). The more transparent your system, the better you’ll hear the benefits of cartridge optimization.
Because I plan to be switching cartridges, I’m learning how to optimize for myself (as opposed to hiring someone to set it up for you). My strategy to learning cartridge optimization is to first research available setup tools such as protractors, usb microscopes, software, etc. Next is to learn directly from at least 1 seasoned dealer/professional by asking questions and watching them install my cartridge. I will then finalize the tools and methodology. With enough experience of what is optimal, I hope to eventually be able to make the final adjustments by ear.
This 4th post on this subject will likely be the last because of fatigue - I’m quickly losing interest in continuing this tedious topic |
@rauliruegasI just found out you have a very highly resolving relatively expensive system that can justify spending $ for optimization. Get your cartridges optimize- get/hire a knowledgable cartridge optimization professional (maybe a seasoned dealer) to install on your turntable and learn from the experience. Make sure that they’re “optimizing” and not just installing. You’ll hear and appreciate the difference. Your system is much too good to leave performance on the table. Also at your system’s level, it may be beneficial to track WBF where folks with some of the best systems available focus on performance rather than cost. 92 degrees explained https://www.analogplanet.com/content/how-use-usb-digital-microscope-set-92-degree-stylus-rake-angle-... |
Hm, a turntable manufacturer thinks the arm is more important, a cartridge manufacturer think the cartridge is more important. Never mind that in the latter's explanation, he lists a number of reasons the arm is a lot more important than he suggests!.
Its no secret that Raul prefers digital. Most of the people I know that play vinyl insist that it sounds better than digital. All this says to me is that Raul isn't in this to be informative- he's in it to be right. There is a profound difference.
@kennyc Its important not to take anything that shows up on internet forums personally- else the fatigue sets in quite quickly and the trolls win.
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@atmasphere
thanks for the advice. Earlier I thought “atmasphere is lucky to have dodged this exercise”. |
@atmasphere LOL, you are 100% correct. I too noticed that dear Raul didn't take it upon himself to consult with a tonearm manufacturer or turntable manufacturer....but that would risk him getting an opinion opposite to his! |
@atmasphere
please post your favorite tonearms, except for Triplanar and SME
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Dear @kennyc : Thank's for your interest on the set up.
Only for your records I knew about that 92 way before MF posted and I was in WBF way before you can imagine it. As a fact MF already learned some alignment issues rigth from audiophiles.
Yes, to much fatigue and useless for me because unfortunatelly I don't learned yet nothing new for any of your tedious posts.
Enough.
R. |
D. I just received from Ortofon and waiting from phono stage manufacturers, cable manufacturers, rack mount manufacturers, speakers manufacturers and even room conditioning manufacturers, etc, etc Do you agree with.? certainly the rookie agree.
R.
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Dear friends:
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/jan-allaerts-cartridge-experienceI posted that link because was posted in the WBT forum:
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/zyx-diamond-vs-jan-allaerts-mc-2-formula-one.23879/#post-468266
btw, @kennyc : you can see that lucy25 and jfrech posted in both forums. Btw too. In the Agon thread I made a mistake because the MC cartridge was invented by Grado not Ortofon and what I wanted to post in that thread is that was Ortofon the first whom put LOMC cartridges in sale till today. Kenny, in all interned audio forums exist some gentlemans with very high knowledge levels: AA, VE, WBT, AudioKarma, etc, etc and obviously in Agon ( one of those Agon audiophiles is M.Lavigne who post here and in wbt ) but as always the high amount of audiophilñes in those forums have not that so high knowledge levels and like to learn exactly as me. @mijostyn , maybe you can find out an Allaerts MC2 finish gold second hand. In those times jfrech puts in sale his sample and solded. R. |
@kennyc : good that you are near an expert on set up but till now you don't answer my questions to you:
"
How do you mantain exactly those 90 degrees ( which groove do you choice to make the alignment and why and where in the LP surface and with which LP. ? ) and 92 degress at each single groove ? ""
or you are only trolling in the subject?
R.
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Raul, The Allaerts cartridge REALLY exhibits 70db separation at 100Hz? That's about as unbelievable as the other specs on stereo separation you posted, not to mention 0.1% distortion!!!
Allaerts can say what they want, but don't tell me you believe those absurdly good numbers. You're too smart for that.
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I do not buy used cartridges Raul. It is too risky. I am tempted to buy an Allaerts cartridge. Hopefully he will still be in business when I get the chance. I have other fish to fry first. I REALLY want to get a Schroder LT and put it on a Dohmann Helix 2. Dream on. |
Dear @lewm : and that tracking ability number ! . Those " incredible " specs that sounds " absurdly good " as you said comes in Jan site.
Now, I never measured it and what I can say to you is exactly what I posted in those threads that are confirmed by other Allaerts owners in the forums.
Now, Jan is not only very professional designer and manufacturer but very serious and honest on all what he does.
The first hand experiences I ahve with both models in the tracking ability issue said that does not matters in which tonearm ( because I mounted in different tonearms. ) it tracks everything and in the 1812 not even the 26/27 can makes a better job.
If you read in several of the wbt and here references on the cartridges confirm not only about TA but about that huge separation and those gentlemans not even mentioned cartridge specs as I did it here.
I have to tell you that I bougth my MC2 Finish Gold with out knowing its specs but because what owners posted.
Lewm, even M.Fremer was a little surprised about but not even at Stereophile they measured.
The Allaerts quality performance levels makes that those specs go unimportant.
Yes, I thought exactly like you when I knew the specs. Perhaps a gentleman like J.Carr could be who can confirm if those specs can be achieved but in case he remotely comes here and remotely could says that can be achieved then the first question to him will be why not in Lyra cartridges.
R. |
Those specs would be OK for a phono stage, but for a phono cartridge seems unlikely, to say the least. This is not to say that the Allaerts is not a wonderful cartridge. I'd love to hear one.
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I'm not sure either. He builds each cartridge himself and has quite a lab.
I suspect a lot of the performance comes from manual tweaking and testing. The more expensive the cartridge the more attention it gets, the better the performance. I suspect this is impractical to do on a mass assembly basis. Every cartridge would cost 20 grand. The most expensive part of any cartridge is labor. If this is the case, how long can this type of performance last? How fast does it degrade? Is it worth it in the end? The best part is the cartridges are not supplied with a stylus guard! I just broke the cantilever of my 20K cartridge:( |
please post your favorite tonearms, except for Triplanar and SME FWIW while I had the SME5 for some years, It's not one of my faves, although the 12" seems to be pretty nice. The 4-point arms from Kuzma have worked well for me. The problem here is that I have master tapes and I've only heard a couple of combinations that really held up in that regard. To that end, even though I don't have one, the Triplanar 12" seems to be the best I've heard. Now if you leave the master tape issue out of it, I've heard a lot of arms that seemed to sound just fine. |
Dear @lewm @mijostyn : The delivery time inin Allaerts for this models is 4-6 months ! after your pay in advance.
Why so much time for if he don't sale " thousands " of cartridges ?.
R. |
I think he makes 4-5 cartridges a week at most. |
@mijostyn : Yes, I posted that because what you said about:
"
He builds each cartridge himself and has quite a lab.
I suspect a lot of the performance comes from manual tweaking and testing. The more expensive the cartridge the more attention it gets, the better the performance. I suspect this is impractical to do on a mass assembly basis..."""
eacg single tinny detail takes from him a lot of time to achieve those kind of quality level performance and numbers.
R. |
Hi @kennyc : Always is time to learn, you posted:
"
degrees is measured vertically, while null points (zenith) is measured horizontal. Therefore, once vertical is set up, it should remain the same across the entire record surface. ""
A pivoted arm is tangential to the grooves only at null points where I understand we can to set up in that groove the stylus tip at 90°.
You said that after we make that set up " should remain " in all LP recordedd surface and my question is:
how can remain when at the next and before the null points in all grooves the stylus tip is not any more exactly in the grooves but with and error ( tracking error. ) that impedes the stylus tip stays exactly at 90° in the grooves ? why distress about when of the hundreds of grooves we can achieve that in only 2 grooves.
Of course that maybe I'm missing something/I'm wrong and you have the explanation about for I can understand your statement and all of us could learn something that it's way critical and important as you show it.
Your answer appreciated.
R.
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kenny: dead silence, why is that? only because I'm wrong and did not understand your posts?.
Well do it a favor and at least come back and post: You are wrong. That's enough for me and maybe for all of us.
R. |
A good Grado is good enough. Period. |
Coltrane, as long as it does not hum on your turntable!
Rauliruegas, there is a slight change in VTA with tracking error but it is so slight that it is most probably meaningless. The current standard VTA seems to be 92 degrees. I use a usb microscope and set VTA so that the oncoming surface of the stylus is exactly at 90 degrees. This seems to work well. I went through the process of changing VTA in about 20 minute increments up +- 1 degrees and could not hear a significant difference. This was with a Clearaudio Da Vinci a cartridge with a fine line stylus. |
@mijostyn That 92 degree SRA thing is an approximation- an average. Any LP will actually be slightly different. Hard to know how much of it you'll actually hear.
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“ I have master tapes and I've only heard a couple of combinations that really held up in that regard.”
There’s an important word in here, combinations.
Do those using microscopes ever then vary it a little and listen to check it’s actually optimal? |
Dear @mijostyn : Other than what atmasphere posted and I agree with him is that those 90° and 92° can't remain over the recorded LP surface, no way LP is not perfect and pivoted tonearms has that tracking errors and your tonearm/cartridge/TT alignment can't be perfect either.
R. |
mijostyn... there is a slight change in VTA with tracking error ... Huh? The two angles are completely unrelated. The current standard VTA seems to be 92 degrees. Oh, no, you’re confusing VTA with Stylus Rake Angle. VTA is typically around 20 degrees today. The geometry of this is clearly defined by Risch & Maier, who wrote the seminal treatment of this: "VTA is the angle between the surface of the record and the line described by the contact point of the stylus in the groove and the pivot point of the cantilever."
March, 1981 Audio, see it here on page 21. |
Dear @cleeds : Rigth you are.
R. |
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