Yeah, another dumb "what's your opinion on these cartridges" thread. Back in the late 80's we had dealers where you could listen to the stuff.
So anyhow I have a Linn LP12 with Ittok arm and a 30 year old Audioquest B200L cartridge. I'm running it through the phono stage of a Jeff Rowland Coherence One into a Spectral DMA90 through a set of Kef R300's.
I prefer a little more laid back sound (err on the side of forgiving instead of fatiguing) but I like a lot of upper end detail, precise soundstaging, air, etc.
So far I'm considering an Ortofon Quintet S Black, Hana SL or a Benz wood - something at or below the $1k level.
I'd love to hear any opinions, suggestions, and experiences with those cartridges or others in the price range. I could possibly go higher if there is something out there that really shines for less than $1,500.
The big deal you're going to find is that if the tonearm properly tracks the cartridge, then the choice of cartridge is far less important than people make it out. By 'properly track' I mean that no matter what is in the grooves, the music is always relaxed and well-defined, no hint of stress or breakup; almost as if you were listening to tape.
Dear @atmasphere : "
the choice of cartridge is far less important than people make it ou...""
Since when?. Everything the same the cartridge self quality level performance is an makes a difference. All those cartridges I posted are diferent even that all are very good designs but performs " different ". Different cartridges in same tonearm performs different and what we listen is different too. You can take an " universal perfect " tonearm and not two different cartridge models will sounds the same.
Every audiophile knows the importance to match the cartridge/tonearm combination and to make an accurated geometry alignment.
Vintage and today gimball pivoted tonearms are well designed with bearings and build materials beyond reproach of anything. We can take vintage ones as: Lustre GST-801 or Technics EPA 100 or any Grace gimball design that after 30 years are still working really fine or today tonearms as SME V or Kuzma 4point or Triplanar and the like.
Where exist a serious problem with tonearms is in the unipivot designs.
Anyway, after the LP the cartridge is the king and the tonearm is an slave of the cartridge an obviously an important item too.
I prefer a little more laid back sound (err on the side of forgiving
instead of fatiguing) but I like a lot of upper end detail, precise
soundstaging, air, etc.
In other words "really good" :) Ittok is on the lighter side of medium mass so a Hana should work well, perhaps a Zyx as @rauliruegas mentioned.
tight channel balance .5db and separation 30db are the factors I believe made me like it better than my prior favorite winner Shure V15VxMR body with Jico SAS stlus/boron shaft.
I tend to agree with Ralph on this issue. I have no direct experience
with the Tri-Planar, but agree that people tend to underestimate the
value of a fully adjustable tonearm and a well adjusted cartridge as
opposed to spending mega-bucks on a cartridge. Note that Ralph's
experience with a cutting lathe, and knowing exactly what sound was
engraved on a subsequent record is invaluable, and is the kind of
experience that few on the site can use as a reference, no matter how
many mega-bucks they have to spend.I have never found any of the advice
given by Ralph on this site to be in error, and the characterization of
his advice by Raulruegras as stupid, is reprehensible.
Some interesting information being exchanged here.
So let’s talk about adjustability - or if someone could point me to some comprehensive threads about the subject, that would be great.
When I bought my last cartridge in the late 80’s, I trusted me dealer to install it then I messed with the VTA until I got the best sound. My dealer is long gone but I just bought a Feickert setup protractor. I want to check my current setup and also experiment with my very old cartridge, a Madrigal Carnegie One while inspecting my Audioquest B200L under a microscope.
Is the Ittok very adjustable? Are there any parts of setup that people typically get wrong or I should watch up for when using the Feickert with my Linn? I’m pretty detail minded and competent with intricate work, I make acoustic guitars (from scratch, not kits) as a hobby.
You have no idea what you are talking about and your statements are boarding stupidity land.
Again, after LP cartridge is the most important item in the analog rig.
You might try it.
I discovered that the arm is more important when one channel of my Transfiguation failed and I had to send it back. While it was gone I needed something to play, and the only thing around at the time was a Grado Green new in the box. Since the Triplanar is so adjustable it was a cinch to set it up right- I was only setting it up so I could play something but its so easy to do I spent the time to be precise; but still I was unprepared for what happened next.
And that was that the Grado was perfectly able to easily track anything I threw at it. This was a bit of a surprise as a $35.00 cartridge shouldn't have been able to do that according to my beliefs at the time. It was a bit forward sounding but then I remembered how important loading is for high output cartridges, so I set it up with a 10K resistor on the cartridge loading strip on the back of my preamp, and then it was just as relaxed and detailed as my Tranfiguration. There was no torture track it didn't handle with great ease. The real difference between the two was that it obviously had more output.
Since then I've seen this simple fact play out again and again. Now we all know that if a cartridge isn't set up right it can have more distortion- and this is easily measured. And we also know that some arms simply won't allow you to set up a cartridge correctly as some of the adjustments needed to dial it in simply don't exist. So its not stupid- in fact I am suggesting quite the opposite: if you can't set up the cartridge properly you are leaving performance on the table! This should be really obvious to any audiophile...
Now this is something that I have no surprise that I might get pushback for; the last thing you want to hear if you spent top dollar on a cartridge is finding out a few hundred dollars at the most may have served just as well, but keep in mind that a Triplanar is a $5500.00 instrument and not everyone has one. Some people might say 'well what about loading on that moving coil' and of course I've answered that many times (look elsewhere on this forum); its simply not a variable.
One other thing- obviously people if they are thinking about this might be curious what I'm running now and at home its still the Transfiguration. This is for several reasons- the first is that it sounds just fine so I'm not motivated to cause my hand to move and replace it with something less expensive just because I can. The second is the Transfiguration has held up surprisingly well over the last ten years and to my knowledge, most MM cartridges would have had the suspension of the cantilever fail at least twice in that time. Finally, as a manufacturer if I have a client come to my home, I don't have to explain to them the reasoning behind an inexpensive cartridge- this last bit due to a phenomena known as the Veblen Effect
Dear @atmasphere : """
but still I was unprepared for what happened next.
And that was that the Grado was perfectly able to easily track anything I threw at it. This was a bit of a surprise as a $35.00 cartridge shouldn't have been able to do that according to my beliefs at the time. """
You was surprised due that in those times you really was a roockie on cartridges and not because your tonearm. So, you " learned " but your assumpiton was and still is wrong.
Take a look to what with this same Grado cartridge owners posted in AudioReview forum and all of them with inexpensive tonearms ( analog rigs. ), no high end with any of them ( but totally way entry level items. ) and the same Grado Green performed as you " discovered " ! ! ! ! ! ? ? ? :
""
[Nov 05, 2015]AudioladAudioPhile
In 2015 the Green is improved, with my Denon DB300F table (internally grounded), Vincent PHO-8 preamp, and there is no hum. I've used this for several years after tiring of the Audio Technica 440MLa and its piercing out of proportion highs. I highly recommend this for those who want audiophile quality, at a company set price of $95. Remember about these cartridges because you can go all the way to the best prestige stylus without replacing the
[Oct 05, 2010]abcxyzAudio Enthusiast
I picked up this Grado to use on my Rega P3 turntable but it hummed too much due to the internal grounding that the RB250 tonearm has did not match at all with this Grado. Conversely, with it on my Technics Q3, it grounds to the phono preamp and that eliminated any hum from the Grado and left me with and outstanding soundstage and natural sounding. With the right turntable, this cartridge makes my music sound so open, warm, and detailed! It replaced the AT95SE cartridge that I was using on my Technics Q3 that is tipped more to the treble side of things.
Purchased this cartridge for $40 at Audio Systems in Austin, Texas. They are still one of the few remaining Audio showroom stores in Austin, Texas. Mark, the owner, is particularly helpful and friendly with all his customers.
Strengths: For $40, it sounds about as good as those $300 MC cartridges that I tried.
Weaknesses: Audible humming with Rega turntables that are grounded internally.
[Feb 21, 2009]ARJohnAudio Enthusiast
This is for the Green , picked it up in the spring on a whim at a local retail store . First off it sounded good but hummed on my table , not real bad but I could notice it . I tried a few headshells and wires still had the hum . Switched it over to my Thorens 160 and hardly any hum at all ? I was taken by the sound , really smooth and musical . It has replaced a V15 IV with new stylus , just so much more engaging , can listen for hours . I also came into a new AT155LC that sold for $250 back when new and loved it at first , but after a month or so back to the green as my main cart . These are picky on set up and I fiddled a lot to get the sound right , numerous set-ups with various protractors but have it perfect. I have no inner groove distortion and the very slight hum is only noticable at 11 o'clock setting on the volume without the sytlus on the record . For the $62 cdn I paid it can't be beat , the stylus for my V15 was $90 US and the Green is to my ears much better .My next step will be the Platimum or Sonata .I also have a recently aquired Grado XT+ with a new Green stylus but it is not as good as the real Green , but shares the musicality of the Grado line .
OVERALL[Feb 08, 2009]brendonlaAudio Enthusiast
Bought this to replace the Audio Technica cartridge and stylus that came with my Teac P595 belt-drive turntable that I bought from J&R Au """
I hope that can help you. Yes, tonearm is important but TT too and phono stage and speakers and cables, and..., and,,,, etc. etc.
Since then I've seen this simple fact play out again and again. Now we
all know that if a cartridge isn't set up right it can have more
distortion- and this is easily measured. And we also know that some arms
simply won't allow you to set up a cartridge correctly as some of the
adjustments needed to dial it in simply don't exist. So its not stupid-
in fact I am suggesting quite the opposite: if you can't set up the
cartridge properly you are leaving performance on the table! This should
be really obvious to any audiophile...
For MC a high output is something like 1.7mV (but such MC carts must be avoided). People who’re using a high output MC do not understand that high output = coil winding and higher moving mass. LOMC with 0.2 - 0.5 mV are better than HOMC with 2mV. Everyone with MC cartridge should buy a decent phono stage first. If there is a problem with gain (MC phono stage) then MM and MI cartridges are better than all those High Output MC.
@rauliruegas Dear Raul, you are partially correct, I have to learn (about ANALOG) and that's why I am reading on this site the forums and if you noticed not participating or voicing my opinion at all actively on this site, at least in regards to the analog topics.
What I don't understand is why you have to "jump" and just state that I don't "understand nothing of nothing", you don't know me, we have never interacted before, you have no idea who I am or what I do or if I am proficient (or deficient) on a specific topic or knowledge.
I addressed Ralph directly because I personally know him and because I am familiar with his products and his knowledge, as a matter of fact I own his products, the same he is using at his home therefore I am curious to hear his opinion as this will allow me to understand better where he is coming from. He has solved some issues I had in the past with my system so to me and based on our discussions "he always have the right answers"
I also know 'chakster" because of direct interactions we had and value his opinion as well and his explanation makes a lot of sense.
I did not addressed you directly and I wasn't expecting that kind of an answer from you, I read your posts as you are active on this community and although I don't know you "it seemed" you have experience with the analog world so I read your posts very carefully paying attention to your comments, but this direct comment towards me just shows me you are just another pragmatic radical user of this site who just likes to blatantly show "some knowledge" and attack any opinion that doesn't matches yours or shakes your (possibly limited) vision of the world
Sad because at some point I considered you an experienced Agon user but with this bias or way to express yourself (even in the event you were right) it clouds your judgement and doesn't gives too much credit to your posts, and if these "posts" of yours have no credit then these are useless to this community.
I would appreciate, please, if I address someone like Ralph directly and you would like to provide your opinion (like chakster did) just spill it but don't attack others, I never claimed to have knowledge or be an expert here, so instead of trying to discredit me try to educate me (if you feel like it) if not just pass my post and keep any unneeded criticizing to yourself Take care Luis
For MC a high output is something like 1.7mV (but such MC carts must be avoided). People who’re using a high output MC do not understand that high output = coil winding and higher moving mass. LOMC with 0.2 - 0.5 mV are better than HOMC with 2mV. Everyone with MC cartridge should buy a decent phono stage first. If there is a problem with gain (MC phono stage) then MM and MI cartridges are better than all those High Output MC.
Thanks, that makes sense and explaing the HOMC and LOMC concepts as well as the outputs on the MM carts
IIRC, your old Audioquest B200L is a low output cartridge. If $1500 is your cap, there are a lot of good performing carts from Ortofon and Audiotechnica. The AT-OC9/II or /III will perform nicely in your arm cart combo. Stepping up, the AT ART9 may provide you with a very good listening experience. The Hana SL is also a good cart, but not in the same league as the AT's.
Don't expect the Rowland phono section to be able to keep up with the modern phono stage offerings. But it is, in itself, a little laid back.
I wouldn’t throw out that Shure V15VxMR cartridge with the Jico SAS stylus/boron shaft just yet.
Put it away while you’re using the AT33PTG/2 Dual Moving Coil Cartridge and every once in awhile you’ll notice a NOS Shure VN5xMR stylus come up for sale for very reasonable pricing and that (is the) original (replacement) stylus made for the Shure V15VxMR cartridge and will make it sing to a whole different level than the Jico SAS.
That’s also something I’ve learned from @chakster is to use an original NOS stylus, if you can get it for your vintage cartridge of choice.
No way am I parting with my Shure, OEM Stylus: I’m still mad at beryllium’s prevalence to shatter from a strong breeze, and there are some who prefer SAS shape to ML, I only have my long ago memory. New OEM Stylus will not improve the cartridge’s separation, my primary reason for preference of the new AT33PTG/II. Super Tracking is not an issue for me.
Shure is upstairs now, awaiting a contest with my AT440ml (OEM unworn ml stylus). TT: Vertical Linear Tracking Mitsubishi LT-5V. No anti-skate is involved, and Shure brush will not be used.
Downstairs, main system, I used the Shure with OEM stylus over the AT primarily due to Shure’s brush helping with my springy floors, especially prior location, not an issue now.
Specs give an indication, and side 2, tracks 2 and 3, 3 guitarists playing together/apart will be revealing.
These tracks will help you make final anti-skate adjustments,
The greater separation is definitely revealed by those 2 tracks, then I move to other test tracks, Cassandra Wilson’s voice Blue Light Till Dawn, Richard Burton’s voice War of the Worlds, Barbra Streisand/Donna Summers duet Enough is Enough, full orchestra, Cello ...
My Office system is a perfect equilateral triangle, the differences should be apparent, the old AT specs also indicate greater separation and tighter channel balance than the Shure, Much higher signal output)
it’s hard to separate expected differences from ... but for imaging, various size Jazz trios, combos, mid, large bands, Imaging is a real asset for involvement, the key for enjoyment for me.
We have seen/heard the Hot Sardines live 3 times, and the new cartridge was splendid yesterday playing this double LP. Donna was present for the Joe’s Pub performance on one of the 2 LPs
Dear @luisma31 : As I already told you you just don't understand about and that's why you posted a wrong question because loading of a cartridge is not because its output level but because its internal electric characteristics and the phono stage ones.
It does not matters who whom addresses your question. Your knowledge levels are extremely low.
I don't care if you are friend of him that does not changes your wrong question and your comment " all the rigth answers " where exist no answer in the post.
Thanks for the correction! I think it was a lack of sleep mistake.
I'd love to hear any opinions, suggestions, and experiences with those cartridges or others in the price range. I could possibly go higher if there is something out there that really shines for less than $1,500.
@Klooker,
chakster has on this site some very comprehensive lists of cartridges you may want to try to find for your review and should not be to hard to find in the Agon search.
what would you consider as a high output cartridge? Anything over 3mV
2.5mV? Only because this is about the minimum that a phono section designed for MM cartridges will handle properly.
But the answer isn't simple. The lower the output of the cartridge, the lower its inductance. This will push the resonant peak created by the inductance and capacitance to a higher frequency *and* amplitude. I've noticed that the lower output cartridges won't ring at audio frequencies but the high output cartridges do (which is why they need to be loaded to sound right). Obviously there is an area where the cartridge would have a bit of of both characteristics. Take a look at this link, it is helpful at explaining what is going on: http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html
OP, I have owned some Audio Technica cartridges and they sound wonderful. However, they can be just a little bit of a "zing" on the top end. Not terribly bright, just a little bit of a zing. You can do the research and maybe others won't have the same impression. As you probably know, that all depends on the rest of your equipment. I also own the Hana SL and found it to be one of the more "balanced" MC phono cartridges for the under $1,000 price range. Tonally, very pleasant to listen to. Channel separation is very good and provides excellent soundstage and imaging. You really can't fault it, especially in that price class. If you do buy one be sure to give it at least 50 hours of play time to break in the suspension. It will then deliver its' best performance in the soundstage and imaging. Really, a very nice phono cartridge. FYI, it has an output of 0.5mv.
@atmasphere and @chakster Assuming an LOMC cart (and proper arm mass matching compliance) I understand the inductance parameter being lowest will push the resonant frequency (ringing) further into non-audible spectrum, you also get the benefit of lowering the mass of the cart.So the only case of looking into a HOMC cartridge would be to take advantage of the obvious higher output allowing you to match it to a less "output capable" phono stage?
In the 70's/80's a HOMC cartridges were designed for use with MM phono input. Probably a buyer could save on expensive SUT (or MC phono stage) associated with LOMC (low output) but still keep using an MC (high output). Industry always trying to tell us an MC is better and they can make high output MC for some people. In my opinion this is the only reason. If you want a Moving Coil cartridge but you have only MM phono stage (and your budget is limited) then you can use HOMC. To make an output much higher manufacturer should use more coil winding, it will increase a moving mass system (Moving Coil). High moving mass of a cartridge is not good in theory. This is why a classic solution was an external Step Up Transformer and Low Output MC (too keep the moving mass low).
Moving Iron (and Induced Magnet) cartridges have lowest moving mass. Most of the decent MM also have low moving mass. Those cartridges are better than any HOMC in theory. And stylus is user replaceable.
Makes sense, yet industry pushed the concept that MC was superior to MM, possibly the case for LOMC, 5 years ago I don't recall seeing the LOMC / HOMC terminology much spreaded, as I remember your posts were the first I found here advocating for vintage MM. Thanks Chak
OP For everyday use, I prefer a more laid back sound and not too in your face. The Benz Micro Wood is an excellent choice giving me plenty of detail and air, it's well balanced, and doesn't draw too much attention to itself. You can get a bargain on the Benz from a seller here on Agon.
I can say the same for another cartridge, the Audio Technica AT33PTG/II, though some will dismiss it because of its low price. It's very well balanced and not lit in the highs like some of the other Audio Technica models. This cartridge was very easy to dial for me requiring little tinkering to sound really good.
Dear @klooker : You own very good electronics that I know very well too. Your system deserves the best cartridge you can buy and obviously you deserve it too.
You don’t will have problems for future cartridge service with any of the cartridges I linked and probably before 1K-1.5K hours you will up gradedd the cartridge you buy today.
If you can go with the Windfeld pull the triger with. This is a cartridge that beats LOMC cartridges in the 5K dollars and competes with the big boys in the 10+K.
The Ittok can handle it. Don't go with the cartridge mediocrity/average level/range.
Makes sense, yet industry pushed the concept that MC was superior to MM, possibly the case for LOMC, 5 years ago I don't recall seeing the LOMC / HOMC terminology much spreaded, as I remember your posts were the first I found here advocating for vintage MM. Thanks Chak
I have at least 2-3 High Output MC cartridges (still have two of them), I must say I enjoyed using them, but later found much better LOMC and MM, MI.
Even with MM some people always like high output, don't know why, some people think louder is better (I do not agree).
What tonearm adjustments do you view as necessary to be considered a good tonearm for yourself?
@scar972 The reason I like the Triplanar is that its so adjustable. You can dial in the VTA (the VTA tower pioneered by Triplanar is now seen in a variety of different arms) with great ease and on-the-fly, you can adjust the azimuth, you can even adjust the mechanical resonance. The bearings are in the same plane as the LP surface; this allows for a more constant tracking pressure when dealing with warp and bass modulation. I think the ability to mess with the mechanical resonance is what I find most valuable because the mass of a cartridge is always a variable in that; this means that the arm works with a wider range of cartridges.
To give you an idea of what that's about, I used to have a Graham 2.2. I tried using a Grado wood body cartridge in that arm and encountered something called the 'Grado dance' although this is not something that is a particular fault of Grados (which are a great cartridge) or for that matter the arm. This was simply because the arm mass in tandem with the suspension of the cartridge could set up a resonance (particularly noticeable at the beginning of the LP, where the resonance could cause the stylus to leap out of the groove). In addition the cartridge would mistrack when the music got more intense.The Triplanar has a similar mass, but by setting up the counterweights correctly the problem is avoided entirely and the Grados track effortlessly in that arm.
Even with MM some people always like high output, don't know why, some people think louder is better (I do not agree).
I think it depends on the phono stage, if you have a not so good phono stage with not so much gain the high output cartridge could make sense, if you have a very good phono stage the high output cartridge will work against you. I have tested on my system a Denon MC and Stanton (concorde?) MM, the MM output brings a radio station on my left speaker and lots of noise, the MC won't, now this specific issue could be related to other electrical EMI/RFI conditions. Hopefully I would be able to test some more soon.
Ralph following your comments it would seem the entire "magic" of TT reproduced audio it is most closely related to mechanical parameters (rigidity, mass, adjustments etc) than the electrical ones (MC or MM etc, even the cartridge stylus (mechanical) shape and material will have more impact in the final result.
@luisma31 Well if the cartridge won't track properly its not going to be all that magical :) You really do want to get that bit right.
Now you may have noticed something- with MM cartridges you can't get as much bandwidth. This probably isn't a big deal since the LP is bandwidth limited above about 45KHz or so and there probably isn't any information up there anyway other than noise. But I'm looking at this from a phase shift issue- when you have out of band frequency fluctuations they can introduce phase shift in the audio band, although for the most part it will be above 8 or 9KHz so this may not be much of a concern. But I like to cover all the bases- its very much like looking after the little things that add weight to a bicycle- the more you get right, the more likely the final result will have more detail, deeper wider soundstage, stuff like that.
So I'm a bit hesitant to say which is more important to get things right (get the 'magic'). But if the cartridge mistracks it certainly won't happen. But if it is tracking effortlessly, that is when its important that all the electrical parameters are right too. So I guess I see it as a bit like a string of pearls :)
Dear @atmasphere : "
I used to have a Graham 2.2. I tried using a Grado wood body cartridge in that arm and encountered something called the 'Grado dance' although this is not something that is a particular fault of Grados (which are a great cartridge) or for that matter the arm.
This was simply because the arm mass in tandem with the suspension of the cartridge.........."
Any one that owns an unipivoted tonearm design has very low knowledge levels on the tonearm/cartridge overall issue and you are not an exception to that. Good that you are improving about.
All unipivots no matters mass cartridge always " dance/jump " inside the grooves generating higher tracking distortion levels than non-unipivot tonearm designs.
Not only Triplanar but any gimball tonearm design handled that problem in better way but can't avoid it completely even if the resonance frequency between the tonearm and cartridge is in the 8hz/10hz-12hz " ideal " range and exist only one posibility to put that groove jumping out of the " equation " or at least at minimum.
Any one that owns an unipivoted tonearm design has very low knowledge
levels on the tonearm/cartridge overall issue and you are not an
exception to that.
This sort of blanket statement is really problematic. The later Graham Phantom is a very decent unipivot- magnetically stabilized. I had gone from the SME5 to the Graham 2.2 because the latter worked with a larger range of cartridges, but the Grado was not one of them. If you had the right cartridge on it there was not 'dance/jump' at all. The Micro Benz did quite well on that arm. But the Triplanar as tracked any cartridge I've installed on it perfectly (which is to say no breakup and effortless no matter how heavy the groove was modulated), once I get the effective mass right.
Ralph, I get it, I'm just saying that to me (a learning noob with analog) is fascinating how mechanics (including proper tracking) will provide 80% of the magic while electrical parameters the remaining 20% (using these values as an example).Now you guys are talking unipivot / gimbal, just realized my Technics uses a gimbal design
@atmasphere : it " dance " at microscopic grooves tracking levels, no matters what. magnets can't stabilize the unipivot designs, the tracking friction movements/forces are extremely high.
@millercarbon Origen Live designs are really good.
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