Hi Volley,
I used Duelund silver bypass caps in my current reference speaker crossovers, attempting to bypass Clarity MR caps. I can honestly say it did nothing detectable. Maybe due to the size, about 0.047uF around a 4.7uF cap.
On the other hand, another cap I have, around 8 uF, bypassed with an 0.1uF Audyn True Copper cap was an outstanding imropovement. I tried it on the other cap too but found it changed the timber too much.
If I had the money I would love to try the Jupiter copper foil caps, cheapest from SonicCraft, but ouch.
Best,
Erik
|
I have been trying to find some info on the Silver Bypass Duelund caps?
Looks like I am going to have go back and read this thread as I can not find much about them?
For me they would not be bypass just the correct value. (At least the values originally sold)
So waiting on them to be restocked in original value. Another strange thing is there does not seem to be a hurry to stock them?
The bypass caps are not going the way of the Alexander line? There is not lots of chatter but Tony Gee really liked them?
|
Jensen Paper Copper and Jupiter caps back in. Just one poly Solen cap left.
Waiting on Partsconnexion to get more Silver Bypass caps. (Duelund)
|
Been an interesting evaluation going down! Really the first I have done.
When you go down the biggest thing I notice is the lack of "alive" tone.
How easily things can sound like Hi-Fi. Really the same as I thought all those years ago on this thread.
All foil can sound real, even vintage.
As someone mentioned on here a long time ago your weak link is very important.
Now I am just figuring out what to buy next.
Moving up to CAST (2nd set on tweeters from VSF on main speakers) or Duelund Hybrid coupling caps over RS.
Best bang?
|
I feel much better now reading that Jeff says
"It comes as a complete surprise to me that changing one capacitor or resistor in the circuit of the MX110s makes as much difference as I hear when swapping between entire components like preamplifiers or amplifiers in my hi-fi systems".
It is nice to have someone say the same thing as I have been saying indicating it is true or we are both crazy!
My one Fisher is back with 4 changed coupling caps, one new resistor, 4 power tubes now the new Tungsol vs. EH 7591 and changed to fixed bias from cathode bias.
My repair guy did not know if I would be able to tell the difference? (for real)
I do not even recognize the amp!!! If you said to me it was a totally different component that would be MUCH more believable.
In the past I would have been quite upset!
The amp was loaded with Jupiter, Jensen Copper Paper tube and VCap Cuft caps. It sounded absolutely awesome! However it has had running issues...
More or less this amp was left over parts not making main amp which is all Duelund with Jupiter in phono stage.
The 4 caps are Solen caps. The repair guy knew I would not stick with them. They are rated around 6 is my guess by Tony Gee.
The caps that came out Jupiter rated 13 or Jensen (not rated) but in my guess 12 or more.
In in most of my years of testing it has been a cap at a time test.
This kind of a change is just not doable... It is just so far from where it was one can not reference.
My guess is the tubes are just a tiny change. I have changed tubes and yes some are better than others but a tube difference does not equal a cap change. (Possible the different resistor)
|
Volleyguy,
If you ever decide to go the DHT SET route be sure that it has a good quality output transformer and stout power supply. Those are the make or break variables for this type of amplifier. The last two areas to cut corners. I bet Grannyring (Bill) could build you a superb SET amplifier 😊
Charles, |
Some of us also also prefer the 14 and 10 gauge WE options for more of that midrange body and fullness. I also found a dual run of the 16 gauge better sounding than a single run. They all sound a tad different and all these options are first rate. It does really depend on your rig and personal tastes.
The best find I have ever encountered in audio for sure in terms of bang for the buck!
|
Hi,
Yes, 300b SET for the past six and a half years. I'm very happy with its sound and it will be my last amplifier. It brings the music to life which is all I want.
Charles, |
Charles if I remember correct you are in the triode camp? 300b?
triode amps have always intrigued me.
i know sometime I will have to try one! |
Charles nice to hear from you!
One of the main ideas on this thread was to put in perspective the improvement for the $ each of us spends.
Before this thread I would hear how great something was or was not. But no "great" per $ factor. (Which is key for most of us)
Duelund caps I would recommend them all the time.
Is Duelund Silver 2.0 (version 2) better than WE16ga? I suspect that depends on each system.
At $27 a foot and $32 a foot for 3.0. That is over $1k for 10ft of speaker cables.
i could not recomend someone spend that if they are like me and $1k is quite a bit of money...
I was never in the mega $ speaker cable camp in the first place.
At at the start of this thread I had tried bi-amp'ing (SS) with 2 $5k amps. Total waste of money to me!
When I realised I had a $5k amp running through a $1 tweeter cap, I knew this needed to be thought through.
replacing those $1 caps with even $50 of Mundorf Supreme's in the tweeters would have been VASTLY better money spent. (Then bi-amp'ing)
my guess changing the caps is 10x+ (Maybe 100x) the improvement for 1/100 the cost!
Is Duelund wire worth 20x as much? (As WE16ga) It is not where one should put their money first IMHO.
I would replace every cap and inductor first. Some tubes are Big Bang for the $ as well.
I am so glad Jeff has an open mind! He is not solely in the vintage or new camp? I imagine his blog is of great value to many of us?!
i have to get caught back up! Feel behind. Duelund Silver bypass and this hybrid cap.
Those silver bypass caps are in the values I could use... Hmmmm?
|
The fact that the W.E. wire is competitive with the Duelund silver wire is highly impressive and commendable. If you find the W.E. more "-real" sounding then that is the one I would select ."Real" and "natural " -are my objectives when choosing any audio product.
Charles |
On Jeff's Place and the WE16ga wire I still can not say which I like better the WE or Duelund 2.0 Silver? (It has been months!)
Each sounds different.
Duelund richer warmer and WE livelier in the midrange possilbly a more "real" sound midrange.
So far I would say Duelund overall. (Richer more complex)
In in my bedroom system I really liked WE. Smaller system and having a great midrange in a small system is critical. Have not even tried Duelund there.
Am I going to spend the vastly larger amount of money on Duelund Silver in the bedroom? No.
I will rewire speakers internally to WE in the bedroom system as well.
WE is a great low cost tip from Jeff's place!
|
I am trying to catch up on Jeff's Place blog. I really enjoy his excellent blog!
I am glad to hear he compares the mods he does with an original.
When I started I kept the best sounding amp I had original, always having a reference for a stock amp for mods to not come up with the false idea that everything I did was an improvement.
As Jeff was saying sometimes it's frustratingly not.
My original stock Fisher is now no longer stock. It was the amp that caught fire and melted an output transformer. My modded vintage amp in main system has long ago passed the stock vintage amp.
The Fisher was cathode biased. My tech guy who builds tube amps and repairs amps from all over Canada and the U.S.. A lot of expensive gear. Just love visiting him to see what is in for repair!
He changed the cathode biased amp to fixed bias. He did not like the circuit. He thought unstable. No argument here! (Chew up tubes catch fire the only thing it did well was sound great and very quiet)
A repair mans point of view will be different than ours.
I can not comment fully the change in sound but for sure sounds different. Technically the amp already running much cooler and seems much more stable!
So far the amp sounds stable and cooler, like it is running. The 4 Solen caps I suspect not helping either. Artificial sound. (Grainy that I am not used too)
It is my new project amp to see if I can push it passed my best modded amp.
My gut feeling is the phono stage is going to be much quieter. The one area I have not been super thrilled with. Phono stage was too noisy on other vintage amp. (Jupiter caps helped immensely there)
I have no idea of the differences in fixed vs. Cathode biased for sound?
I do have to say I am wayyyy more confident that the amp is stable!
My modding ability is extremely limited to part for part replacement, and a set of ears.
Now back to following Jeff's blog and his excellent crew!
|
Yes indeed based on how the cap is built. There is an inside and outside foil and many brands mark the caps so you are aware. From the Aiken amplifier site;
The proper way to connect the outside foil is to the low impedance side of the circuit, which, in the case of coupling caps, will normally be the plate of the previous stage. If it is a bypass cap to ground, connect the outside foil to the grounded side. If it is a bypass cap from a signal to B+, connect the outside foil to B+. The outside foil will act as a shield against electric field coupling into the capacitor, so you want it to have the lowest impedance return path to ground.
For AC signals, the power supply rail is effectively at ground potential, just as the ground rail is. This is why it makes a good point to use as a shield ground. This concept is sometimes difficult to understand, but if you think about how a capacitor works, it will become clear. A capacitor has a capacitive reactance that calculated as follows:
Xc = 1/(2*Pi*f*C)
where: Xc is the capacitive reactance
f = the frequency of the signal being passed through the capacitor
C = the capacitance of the capacitor.
As you can see from the above equation, the frequency term is in the denominator, so as the frequency increases, the capacitive reactance decreases. Since reactance is effectively a measure of the "AC resistance" of the capacitor, the capacitor will exhibit a very low resistance at higher frequencies, while looking like an open circuit for DC and frequencies low enough to make the capacitive reactance significant. This means that the large electrolytic bypass capacitors in the power supply are effectively "short circuits" to AC signals above a certain very low frequency. For all practical shielding purposes, connecting the outer foil to the power supply rail is just as good as connecting it to ground. As a side note, electrolytic capacitors have an internal resistance that tends to rise with frequency, which can make the capacitor less than ideal as a bypass at higher frequencies. For this reason, it is sometimes a good idea to bypass electrolytic capacitors with a smaller value foil or other type capacitor.
I have seen where a well-known guitar amplifier "guru" said to connect the banded end to the grid of the next stage because it is at ground potential. This is completely wrong, because the grid circuit is a very high impedance point in the circuit. The grid of the tube itself is very high impedance, and it is usually shunted by a high resistance of 220K to 1Meg, and also usually has a large series resistance as an interstage attenuator as well. Because of this, it would make a very poor choice for electrostatic shielding. The plate, on the other hand, has an impedance equal to the internal plate resistance of the tube in parallel with the plate resistor (assuming the cathode is bypassed), which for a typical 12AX7 is around 38K total. If the cathode resistor is unbypassed, the output impedance is a bit higher, around 68K or so, depending on the value of the cathode resistor, but still well below the input impedance of the next stage. Tubes with lower internal plate resistances, such as the 12AT7, will have even lower output impedances.
|
Quick question. Are these audiophile capacitors like the Mundorf directional?
|
In relation internal wiring you should investigate Wonder Wire, solid core either with indulstion or bare. Sold by Michael Percy. I have been buyng it for many years, especially bare wire which sounds better. I add cotton insulation where needed. Excellend sounding very natural.
|
I have been enjoying this thread since it started. I do not recall if I have posted in it previously. Some of the coupling caps I have tried and still are around in my Supratek Chardonnay linestage are Auricaps, circa 2010, Nothing special. Mundorf SIO's, very smooth and musical. Still use them once in a while. Rike S, nice and musical, don't remember too much about them. V-Cap tftf, not as smooth as the SIO's but very dynamic. Kind of cool sounding. A lot of detail, big sound. Still use them. Got a pair of 0.22 uf V-Cap Cutf's to bypass the tftf's. Did not really work too well. And then it ocurred to me to install these by themselves - all the above caps have a value of .68 -tftf V-Cap- to 1 uf, so .22 is not really optimal in this position. I guessed bass response would not be too strong..... which is the case.... but midrange, smoothness, soundstage and tone and depth qualities trump all others.... frustrating because getting larger value Cutfs would mean spending over $700!! which Zi won't and can't. The linestage output is transformer coupled and these caps are in their input, so it is not a matter of adding a high value resistor to ground after the cap.
|
Update on one of the vintage amps.
In the past I had posted of two failed Duelund capacitors leaking and a few Jupiter caps very fragile leads breaking.
Now in one of the amps in for service one of the Jensen capacitors has gone bad and was arching inside the cap.
I live in the same town as tube amp builder who does excellent work! He changed the amp from cathode biased to fixed bias. The amp although sounding GREAT was unstable. (he is not a fan of cathode bias?)
So this is his opinion (on the cap) not mine and I heard it and seen it on his test equipment. The cap had gone bad inside.
He is not a fan of "exotic" caps as he calls them. (To me they are great sounding to him exotic) From his point of view of having amps come in from all over North America for repair I can see why. He simply could not have the failure rate I have had. He has seen 3 of my exotic caps go bad out of 15 to 20 caps of mine he has seen. (3 or 4 others he has not seen) I am sure he could not have a failure rate this high!
All that being said parts connection did make it right.
I will have the amp back soon and with now 4 cheap (reliable) poly caps installed.
I am am going to listen and see about leaving the poly caps in or replacing them.
I suspect they will be replaced...
The only exotic so far with no problems has been VCap's. Although I suspect their are more machine made? Jensen, Duelund and Jupiter more hand made?
Not it exactly sure of the process?
This is not a rip on the exotic caps. I am for sure hooked! Even with the problems the sound difference is just way to big to ignore!
|
Grannyring
If it is better it is better.
I am only kidding about the pedestrian look.
I got the WE from the same seller you guys did. |
Just like the wire run in for 100 hours or a little more. You will respect it in the end. I have no doubt. Forget the look, materials etc...and remain open minded. If you have the right WE wire, then will be impressed in the end. |
Volleyguy1,
You should likely stick to silver $1,800 dollar or higher priced cables. You obviously appreciate silver and marketing bucks of various cable manufacturers. This is NOS WE wire. No one to market it. When this is gone it is gone. My next line is tongue in cheek with smiley faces: when you get your hearing corrected I'll sell you some of this wire at Cable Company price for Shun Mook cables using this same WE16ga at over $3,000. Small warning, being NOS that price could go higher. Best, Rob |
It sure does not look special... Kind of scary no marketing or warning of something that could be big... |
Well the WE wire is here.
I sure hope it brings me incredible audio joy! |
Hi John,
If the purpose of an audio system is to bring music into our homes for the sheer pleasure of listening, I don't see how one could reach any other conclusion. If you're unable to emotionally connect with your music what good is that system? I want all the color, beauty, texture and soul of music that I can possibly have. Rob via Jeff Day/Yazaki et al are on track with the Timbral Listening perspective.
Charles, |
Volley,
I want to second what you and Charles already said. I've had my system in states before where I connected with the music intellectually but not emotionally (my way of saying the same thing you and Charles are saying) and the system configuration that permits me to connect with the music emotionally is so much better!
Cheers,
John |
Charles this sure gives a look at what a designer goes through!
Some of this big (meaning caps) improvement, so more of the same will be better, right? No unfortunately not always... |
Thanks Charles I will be! (following my heart)
All new caps in amp and just killed it! Unless it improves drastically and I doubt it I will start putting back in some vintage.
I suspect it is the line stage now Jensen and Jupiter and it was Jupiter and vintage. (which was a magical mix)
All vintage was too hard to listen to for long the mix was just stunning!!! All new and the amp sounds just dead... Worse than all vintage really...
Sound is very hifi now. I still have all the vintage needed to go back.
There is a difference in vintage quality just like today. Vishay ERO the West German manufactured ones seem quite good and the ones the designer seemed to use in critical spots.
The bubble gum ones hand made (but in a bad way) are very mid range and noisy. |
Volleyguy,
In audio or music listening matters when it's head vs heart, I follow the heart. For me this is one area where emotion trumps cerebral considerations. Choose the capacitor that goes to your heart.
Charles, |
So far it is not all good...
Resonance is the key and I think we need just the right amount.
Vintage caps have it in spades. But lack detail off the midrange.
New caps lower resonance but this takes some life out of the midrange.
I know exactly how it was wired to go back if needed after WE wire is here.
My head says there is a lot of improvement my heart is not so sure...
Still needs hours to settle. |
When replacing the vintage caps (first 5) in the amp the improvement was huge! EVERYTHING was wayyyy better.
The last 6 now in. Just settling in. Every time I have done this the first cap replaced in the circuit seems to make more difference.
I will wait till hours pile on. (any comment) These are already burned in caps. (used)
I agree with Rob in the sense if buying equipment make sure designer has similar tastes or timbrel listening. |
Caps all installed.
Hope it sounds better, it was sounding very good!
Just waiting on Western Electric wire then if all goes well looking forward to doing the third amp in Mr Yakaki-san's choice of caps.
Plus building the recommended interconnects. |
Tonight going to fire up the soldering iron!
Finishing amp getting ready for this WE wire! (loading in VCap Cuft and Jensen)
You guys have me pumped. |
I had mentioned synergy before.
In the office system I bought a pair of Klipsch Heresy's. I bought them for one reason the Alnico Tweeter. My Lascala's have Alnico dual phase mid range driver. (most sought after only made for a matter of months)
I thought the Heresy's were awful.
I put a bunch of unused caps in the amp. VCap Cuft, Jupiter Copper foil and Jensen Copper Paper tube.
All are very low noise caps.
I can not believe the difference! The mating is fantastic!
Heresy's known as shouty, mid range, no bass speakers. Jupiter caps are VERY quiet. Jensen caps tip sound to bass.
Anyone who has followed this thread would have heard especially Grannyring and myself seeing Duelund vs. Jupiter or other caps slightly different. (on which choice)
I think this has much to do with system synergy.
These are all good caps and can have to do with which application.
This same amp got smoked with my all Duelund crossover Lascala's.
I think a couple more tweaks and this office system will be fantastic. I best part was the speakers were not even bought except for spare parts! (after vesting so much money in Duelund I wanted spare compression drivers) |
Micheal Fremer on best system he ever heard in life.
The same system where his quote there was an ENORMOUS difference in one capacitor.
Best system ever heard in you life?
A fellow in Greece who was kind enough to fly me over to hear his system. Enormous Cessaro horns, custom made, driven by Audio Note SET amps, Continuum Caliburn, Ypsilon preamp and phono preamp DCS digital. The key was an enormous listening room, custom built and treated. The room has a balcony!!!!! It produced a life-sized picture that was coherent, transparent, musical and believable as no other system in my experience has matched. Mine is great, but in miniature. I'm in a relatively small room. It's enveloping and creates a good illusion but his illusion was on a scale you'd have to hear to believe. |
Michael Fremer article on capacitors and resistors.
Question to Micheal?
What importance do you think to the use of built in elements in products? Is there a need of exotics parts?
I am not sure what you mean by "built in elements". Need for 'exotic parts'? Some people swear by certain brands of capacitors and resistors for instance that are far more expensive than commercial ones. I sat through a demo at Ypsilon in Greece where designer Demetris Backlavas swapped out but ONE capacitor in a very simple amp circuit he was working on and the sonic difference was ENORMOUS. So yes, I believe the designers who listen through, part by part, get the best results. |
The WE wire is on it's way.
From someone who said they did not care for the wire it has an amazing mid range. That is a pretty big deal!
WE 16ga vs. Duelund Silver 2.0. (slight cost difference)
Loser goes to the vastly improving office system. Both are needed! (assuming as many of you do WE is very good)
Who wins guys?
I must say it is fun having a second system. (if it is close to main one) |
Hi Charles,
I'm really excited and antsy as I must wait for my brother's DIY expertise. It seems like I've been in a holding pattern for a good part of the summer; waiting on the house, waiting to purchase the Franks, waiting to mod the Dynamo and Tekton, waiting, waiting...the good part is I'm not jumping before looking.
I sincerely believe the Arizona Green Cactus capacitor substitution for the Solen in conjunction with a few well placed Ohmite Brown Devil resistor changes from stock in the Coincident is going to Rock. Grannyring has reported he met with success in one of his mods and I believe he stated likes it better than the Jupiter Capacitor overall in that particular application. Will keep you posted. Rob |
Thanks Mikirob, I will check it out. |
Hi Rob,
Looking forward to reading your listening impression of the Arizona capacitors in place of the teflon Solens. I suspect that they will sound wonderful and your Dynamo will sing even more.
Charles, |
Try tajacobs on eBay, the reliable seller. It looks as though he still has some WE16ga stranded tinned copper in black. The color does not matter. Best, Rob |
Hi Grannyring,
I am interested in the WE 16 gauge wire, and I know this question has been asked before, but since you are knowledgeable about the subject, I will ask you.
Is there still any reliable source you can recommend that still may have this cloth coated wire, or the plastic coated. Finally, is the plastic coated worth buying or is it inferior?
Thanks, John |
Yes, Volleyguy1,
It is Back to the Future! It is "real sound!" Or, musicality that gets you close to real flesh and blood musicians and their instruments with their emotion coming through; and not in any old-fashioned syrupy way, but a fusion of the best of vintage meets the best of the New. |
Grannyring I am getting some for sure but I am not sure if you guys realise what you are saying? On many levels.
Tin!!!
So much for purity! |
Exactly. Forget all your past experience and what you have read. I had to. I am still shaking my head. All that is required is an open mind. If you have one, you will be blessed:) |
You realize what you guys are saying?
WE wire is wrapped in tin. You have people fussing over how pure the copper is in wire .99999 how many 9's and you are saying wire wrapped in tin is great?
People have been getting silver solder. Why WE wire is wrapped in tin.
This is what gives us all a bad name. Audiofools.
I am not saying the wire does not sound great but you have opened a can of worms! |
Sorry for the typo....aphile nitpicking is what I meant.
You will love the mod to your amp Rob! |
That's it Grannyring! They sound real. That is what Yazaki-san has pursued most of his adult life, building "Real Sound" musical equipment. If you read his "listening bias" he nails it. I wish I had your skill, still waiting on my DIY brother to come down and guide me installing 4 Arizona Green Cactus capacitors in my Coincident Dynamo. Two of these will replace the Solen capacitors two others will go in the rectifier tube area. Another recommendation is to replace a number of resistors with the Ohmite Brown Devils. After I accomplish this task its on to the rewire of the Tekton speakers with the WE16ga (maybe install Jupiter caps here)? |
Volley, Rob and others here. The same Japanese designer that turned us all onto the WE and Belden 8402 wire also turned us onto the new Arizona Capacitor Green Cactus capacitors. They are vintage reproductions according to Jeff Day's blog. Mineral oil and hermetically sealed capacitors.
I purchased two .47uf values for my dac to be used in the output position. They replaced Jupiter copper foil caps. They cost me $25 each. I placed them in my dac along with WE wire on the inputs and outputs. This is not my Yamamoto dac, but another DIY build that is very, very good.
These caps are cut from the same sonic cloth as the WE wire. The WE wire and these caps sound very different from the high end caps/wire we all love. Different how? Hard to explain really, but they are supremely musical.
Perhaps the Jupiters have more air and top end sparkle, but these Green Cactus caps are holographic sounding and so real sounding. They just seem to sound like the real thing and not so much concerned about aphile nick pics if you will. |
The 16 also has a very thin rubber like covering before the outer cloth. They are both the same other than gauge. |
Thanks Rob
I did see on one of the threads someone say it was rubber and cotton 14ga and more? Silk and cotton 16 ga and smaller?
Is this why Yazaki-san maybe went with the 16ga? |
