Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil
I meant the mundorf silver/gold in comparison to the teflon v-caps I installed in my omega duos in early '07. I agree with you that most companies use caps of lower quality than the mundorfs in their expensive speakers. Imagine how much such speakers can be improved with top quality caps like cast or v-caps |
Charles1dad, You said you replaced your speaker caps with CAST. What speaker caps did you replace? Your cost of $850 for the pair of speaker caps suggests that it's a rather small value. Did you replace the full cap or are you using the CAST as a bypass? What cap was in the speaker before the replacement? Sorry for all the questions but I am trying to determine the most cost effective approach for my own speakers. I need both a 7.5uf and 3.0uf for my high-pass crossover, and the low-pass uses a 5.6uf. Trying to do all those with CAST would be very expensive. I recently hooked up a brand new 1uf CAST in parallel with the 7.5uf and I was really quite surprised by the magnitude of improvement. That has me thinking of using smaller CAST caps just as bypass caps. |
Lots of capacitors, resistors, and inductors to upgrade in my Dunlavy SC-VI crossovers: http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1359906100.jpg |
Vn 101606 Years ago I worked for a dealer that had multiple locations in the mid-west and we sold many pairs of Dunlavy speakers. I took a deposit of 15k on the first pair of SCVI's to be delivered.. almost a year to get those babys. I had many conversations with Mr. Dunlavy during the waiting period. I had purchased a pair of SCIV's for my personal use and like everything I do I take it apart in hopes I can make it sound better. Easy thing to do was to replace all the steel and aluminum fasteners with brass. Non ferrous material interferes less with the intended electrical field than does steel which bends the same field. I did this around all the drivers including the delicate face plate and dome which is held together with metric steel screws. Nice apparent improvement. Brass as a material is very musical and pleasant to hear. Next I removed the crossover and then replaced all the steel brackets and screws with brass. Again an apparent improvement. While inside the crossover area I made a record of all the component values and their placement and physical size. Over the course of time I made many changes that proved to be upgrades. In retrospect the best bang for the buck was the replacement of the very inexpensive resistors with bridges made of multiple Vishay metal films. Dunlavy himself told me I was wasting my money to do this swap. Today I would use the Duelunds as replacements because of their value and cost. The difference that late night was so extreme I asked my daughter to come and listen. What did you do to make such a difference she asked. I showed her those component parts that were swapped. She had no I idea what she was seeing but new what she was hearing as I had recorded her many times playing classical guitar between those very speakers. Super quiet yet highly resolving. There was one other major undertaking that actually made for a greater improvement and that was to remove everything inside the speaker cabinet and paint the interior surfaces with Cascade V-Bloc. This paint is drawn in to the pores of the mdf dry like concrete and seals and stiffens the cabinet and blocks the sound of the glue mixture and its damping ill affects. After I did this the sound stage was as wide as my room is wide 22 feet. Okay, I did replace all the caps and inductors and the wire but the biggest bang for the buck was the replacement of the resistors. In retrospect I would not change the factory supplied inductors in the Dunlavys. The inductors have a Q value as well as their own measured inductance. Changing from a 14 gauge inductor to a 8 or 10 gauge inductor not only decreased the dc resistance but also changed the damping of the entire system. So change what ever else you want but leave the inductors in place. All of these changes were performed over 15 years ago, one at a time over the course of a 18 months or more. If I still had those speakers today I would apply methods of resonance grounding to the drivers and the crossover components..Tom |
After the amp went I hooked back an old DVD player knowing the TV sound was going to be really bad after the the Duelund loaded amp was taken in for repair. What really SHOCKED me is how much better the Oppo BDP95 picture is! Holy Smokes just crazy! Even my wife is going Holy Smokes this is awful compared to the Oppo. The kids got Lost series for Christmas (we have watched at ton of it and I do not normally watch TV) but I have to admit watching it on the Oppo and hearing the sound of my system is just unbelievable. Makes watching VERY enjoyable. Using the same system for music and stereo TV has really reduced any complaints from the wife! (about $$$) The wife and kids think the sound for movies is awesome! Duelund makes great a product but so does Oppo. Not only did the BDP-95 beat my $7k CD player it is just AWESOME for sound on movies in stereo (we do not use 5.1 just one system) and has a fantastic picture. The realism in voices just amazing... (fantastic value) I am very glad I went the one (really high quality) system route and has really worked for me! (and the whole family) When your wife and kids really want your amp to get repaired this works wonders on how the money was spent as a family purchase. |
By co-incidence I found a local tube amp builder and repair shop. He does repairs from all over North America... My amp had a tube starting to arc. He checked over the amp and did not redo my soldering, which I thought he might. He also has a customers Audio Note 300b in for repair and I hope he calls me when he sound tests that amp after repair... For testing reasons he can make sure any amp I have is up to snuff. Already he found on testing some Raytheon tubes (EL84) that were in one amp I tested (and shelved) that I had a ASC poly cap power supply installed that the tubes were defective. They tested good on the tester but distortion appeared when volume was turned up... (tested good sounded bad) I will be able to get back to that test ASC power supply. Reason I want to know what power supply cap matters? That test would be ASC vs. vintage which is the best I have had so far... In his amp builds he uses no electrolytics. Now I can get push pull or triode options of newer used or custom made with power supply caps of choice... I know it will be Duelund CAST in the coupling but not sure about style of amp or power supply. On getting back the amp and hours piling on in the phono stage. I am also running a hard drive to the Oppo with 24bit high res music coming in. Early testing but even high res digital is not as good as analog in realism... The Duelund CAST phono stage caps might have moved the vinyl playback beyond digital in the sense of realism. Before caps were changed in the amp all the way through digital sounded better.... |
More info to come but I have revised where I would spend money first on caps... I said tweeter caps before but now have changed that to phono stage. I am reading a voltage increase of 400 to 1,000 on even moving magnet and 10 times that on MC cartridges. The CAST caps difference here is just jaw dropping. To the point I am ordering new power tubes just to be sure. To a great extent it makes sense. This is a very fragile signal. A not stellar cap will lose info... This is an area where you DO NOT want a high resonance cap! Duelund CAST in the phono to me is a slam dunk! More info to follow on comparing to a modern Audio Note 300b that was at the repair shop... |
Hello Theaudiotweak, I ordered all the Duelund CAST componentes for the upgraded SC-VI crossovers. The inductors are custom made so they match the Q of the original inductors. I am really looking forward to this major upgrade. Also bought a Cable Cooker Aniversary to speed up the burn-in of the Duelunds. Only the capacitors need burn-in, or the inductors and resistors too? Cheers, VPN |
VPN I do not think you need a cooker on Duelund. I found CAST overpowering at first but settle in fairly quickly and quickly they should exceed what you had... I bet you are most surprised by the inductors... Good Luck! Let us know. On tubes. I am at somewhat of a loss for words on the Gold Lion 12AX7's vs. the vintage tubes that were in... I have a sneaky feeling these tubes are VERY low resonance. The difference in sound was shocking vs. vintage and on the same lines of vintage caps to CAST. This is the first "new" production 12AX7 I have tried with all these vintage amps I have I had a pile of good testing old tubes that most covet. I did not expect the GL's to sound so different? I keep hearing how new tubes are somehow substandard to NOS big names... Not sure what to make of this but the Gold Lions are for sure quieter with smaller separated imaging and maybe dark (again like they look) as they do not glow much... I feel they are likely going to be loved or ditched... Just so different. |
Haven't looked at the Dunlavy's parts values and you might not need it but.... Most people here have not used big caps or inductors in their crossover. If the caps are really big, especially if > 15uF, the Cable Cooker is essential or it will take a verrrry long time to break them in. Burn in both the caps and inductors although the latter are less critical. While you're at it, burn in all your cables even if used and you'll be surprised at the difference (less impact on PCs). It was certainly a revelation to me. |
Resonance It is common thought at least on this thread that the best of today's capacitors exceed what was available in the past. It has been known for decades that bigger beefier caps were more dynamic and were in many companies better amps. What is better today? Resonance or better control of it. What is bad about resonance? Resonance fills out a frequency giving perceived liquidity. (sounds good) The bad part is this is not done across the spectrum but at the frequency the part resonates at... In all the cap testing I have done it is the middle upper to upper frequency that parts resonate with loss of clarity and detail at the extremes. Tubes. Vintage capacitors do not have the same following or held in the same regard as vintage tubes. It seems no tube can be as good as a tube made many years ago in North America or Europe from the "tube era"... Here is a review not of a capacitor but of a new tube (Northern Electric) vs. vintage. (KT88's) The reviewer does not know it (I think) but is talking about resonance. I feel I could have wrote this comparing vintage caps to Duelund CAST. "Compared to a pair of NOS tubes that I had on hand, the only area where the NOS tubes excelled was in imparting a noticeable liquid quality to upper mid-range and lower treble. However, this small gain was at the expense of considerable bass control, definition and detail, especially given the single-ended application in which these tubes were used. While the NOS tubes imparted a romanticized character to the sound, the NE tubes conveyed a confidence that the listener was hearing more of the source material and with greater accuracy". Tomorrow I am going to test the vintage 12AX7's tubes vs. the new Gold Lions. Selection of tubes is an extensive list of Telefunken, U.S. and British made tubes. Even before the test I was quite shocked when the Gold Lions went in. They exhibited all the same characteristics of putting in CAST caps... Low resonance increased detail I had not heard more and better controlled bass. Looking forward to trying some of today's better tubes. |
VN101606 Wow. That cap is huge. Whatever board you end building the new crossover on, mount the inductors on different planes so there's no magnetic interference (note the orientation of the inductors on your board now). My 17 uF cap is shown in my pics. I played the system with the new XO for over 200 hours - still needed the cable cooker to open things up. |
Ok gang, I have been using a cap that is so good that I'm afraid when you hear the price most will disregard my comments. Keep in mind I compared it to the best - Duelund CAST copper. This cap came very close to the CAST and offers a richer sound it is also more expansive sounding. The bass is more full bodied. It lacks the ultimate degree of detail of the Duelund. The Duelund is a tad more resolving and in the end is still the king. However, you must try this cap out as you will be amazed. I would use it ahead of any Mundorf as well as most every other cap aside of CAST. It is my cap of choice based on sound quality and price. I have only tried it in tube amps and preamps mind you. They cost under $10 for values under 7uf. Yes, this cheap and darn good. Yes, metalized film.....Yes, it still is this good..... Several other Aphiles have heard them and also agree 100%. You can get them at Just Radios in Canada. They are Chinese made. Don't worry about that either as they sound great. Ok, there it is. |
Hello Volleyguy1, I don't know what is their weight, they are currently being manufactured. I should receive in 5 to 6 weeks the whole set of capacitors, inductors and resistors. Hello BarrySandy, yes, I noticed that about the orientation of the inductors, quite nice the way they are positioned in the original crossovers. I will make sure the new crossovers have inductors in a similar way. Cheers, VPN |
Hello Grannyring I have some small values that I might replace in the phono stage not even sure how much difference these would make. I had thought about some of the Duelund Alexander for this as I have not heard them... VPN it will be in pounds that cap! On 12AX7's and resonance. Tubes could make someone crazy. It is a flavouring that one can get that is system based and I can see how guitar guys look for a certain type (of tube) based on a sound they want to "create". The new Gold Lions are bigger beefier and sound that way over the vintage I have. (which is quite a few)(more testing to do) They resonate less than the vintage ones therefore sound better across the spectrum. If one is focused at a certain freq. they could sound not as full but the vintage tube makes that freq. fuller but at the expense of the rest of the spectrum. I was just going to say I would not go nuts looking for a certain vintage hard to find big $$$ tube over changing caps to CAST. Grannyring this comes back to under what grounds (technically) should these caps be so good? Not saying they do not just why? Is your whole amp foil caps? (Duelund or other) as well as the speaker crossover? I did find in the crossover you get "some" natural sound if you mix and match foil with poly caps but not all it could be and I am not saying just with Duelund but even vintage or other foil caps. |
Reporting back on these JB JFX caps and they are wonderful folks. I can't say it more clearly. They compete with any cap and I don't care of the cost. I have used them in two different preamps and one amp. All tubed units. I used them as coupling caps with great results. They are sleepers are dirt cheap. |
Grannyring I might have to try these caps. On the Duelund Facebook page. http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=3701 There is mention about someone thinking the VSF was more musical. I do not know if I would say that, the CAST is clearly the superior cap technically but I for sure am not afraid to use some VSF and have done so. What I am really intrigued about is what is the new cap for a 200uf Mylar CAST for the Tannoy Westminster? Frederik any word? A power supply cap maybe? I was reading on one website about how some tube amp makers (for fanatics) using only vintage electrolytics in the power supply. The site went on to poke fun at these users of vintage electrolytics as belonging to "the occult". Last I checked I was not in any occult but do agree vintage electrolytics in the power supply smoked the Jensen electrolytics. I took out the Jensen and put back in the vintage and wayyyyyyy better! Yet some of my vintage electrolytics are wearing out and a replacement with as good of sound is needed. |
On the post "Frederik pointed out to me that many people mistakenly think inductors arent as important as other circuit components because they typically deal with lower frequencies. He said, In fact its the total opposite, the lower registers are far more resonant in nature than high frequencies, which means resonance control becomes even more important. People are always slow to try the inductors, but when they eventually do, they are always amazed at the difference." I have to admit to agree with this. Maybe because most inductors are garbage that the difference is so big? I have tried to get someone on here to do a Duelund power supply. I am so curious to what is possible. If a vintage electrolytic is so much better what is a top notch power supply like? |
Hello Duelund I have been reading the thread on the Tannoy Westminster's. http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=3794 Tannoy speakers use an autoformer same as mine. I assume the Tannoy autoformer is of similiar construction as mine a thin gauge wire wrapped in wax paper. Is this a part you could make? I know if have asked this before. My understanding on the autoformer is the taps are set for each driver. My autoformer is of similiar construction as the vintage woofer inductor, wax paper wrapped wire some resonance control but not great... Does the wax dry out in time as well? (especially at the edges) In testing that I done years ago on the vintage wax paper woofer inductor it was better at noise control than a new air core inductor with no way of dealing with resonance. The Duelund VSF inductor was even much better at noise control and I wish I tried CAST but oh well only so much money. So I guess two questions. 1 Can you make autoformers out of flat wire? (my gut tells me this is a area of weakness in my crossover) 2 The new CAST Mylar caps will they be in higher voltages and suitable for power supply? I have not yet found a better power supply cap than the vintage electrolytics but I would like to and suspect CAST would be very quiet? I hope someone tries them. |
On Jeff's place doing the Duelund crossover for the Tannoy Westminster's they had hooked the speakers up to to a vintage amp. They were shocked at how good the vintage amp was. http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=4121 The reasons? Hmmmm. My guess is the vintage is foil caps... I had also mentioned on here before the vintage power supply smoked and I mean smoked the Jensen Electrolytic in the power supply. It was like like liquid vs. dry... I have been really hoping someone would do a Duelund paper in oil power supply. Leak was using paper in oil in the power supply many years ago... My gut tells me even a VSF power supply would be very good. I have a full Duleund chain except one vintage cap in the phono stage I am still testing and will finish off with another CAST. You can mix and match caps as long as they are of the same type with not much problem just energy and dynamic differences. This thread started off years ago trying to best the vintage caps (in the speakers) and it was not as easy as I thought it would be... |
Eherdian I have not heard the Copper tube but would expect similiar to paper tube. The VCapcuft is altogether different. I was getting some work done on the amp today from a local tube amp builder and repair guy. (great guy) The amp that caught fire a long time ago. We were talking about the very subject of what is different in a vintage amp? 1 Carbon resistors. He is not a fan as they drift. 2 Capacitors are foil vs. poly. 3 Paper bobbins vs. plastic in the new output transformers 4 Vintage tubes themselves. 5 Vintage Electrolytics in the power supply. This can total up to be quite a big difference in sound... I have not directly compared 1 and 3 directly but have done 2, 4 and 5 and 2 I like the vintage or Duelund or Jensen and 5 I have not bested vintage. Oddly #4 the tubes themselves (the one everyone goes nuts over) I would like to hear more of but maybe the new tubes are better? This may not be strange though as there is no plastic in either tube! Maybe the issue is plastic? 2 and 3 for sure it does. |
Hi volleyguy,thanks for the comment, at last I have decided to buy jensen paper tube to replace audionote mylar copper in oil which is shorted suddenly during playing music. Only 6 months of use... Did you guys ever experience such this thing? I've check the voltage etc, everything normal and right now I use jensen alu tube for a moment. I write complain to AN uk but no response. I tempting to try duelund or vcap cutf but they out of my budget right now hehe You can check on PCX - today they start to launch duelund silver foil 630v with whooping price...I'll wait dor someone here who dare to try it |
Eherdian Interesting you mention that about the Audio Note Caps. When at the amp repair shop he was working on an Audio Note 300b amp and it was one of the coupling caps that went. The copper foil in Mylar type. I am going to guess it was one of the older Audio Note amps. Nice sounding amp though. I am glad they are taking care of you. |
Eherdian It was the vintage electrolytic that smoked the new one... The old electrolytic was bigger heavier and sounded much better. The new small light Jensen Electrolytic sounded dry. It was like liquid vs. dry and the difference was VERY big in favour of the vintage. I am going to get around to doing a paper in oil power supply some day. With the amp builder who is a great guy I am asking a ton of questions. If as I understand in an EL 84 circuit the first electrolytic is in the power supply then this would make sense to sound quality... A comment from someone else talking about old electrolytics in the power supply. I am not aware that I am in any occult? http://lenardaudio.com/education/14_valve_amps_6.html "When occult audiophileism evolved during the 1980s, science and technology was replaced with mysticism and many occult followers believed the old rectifier valve and old Electrolytic capacitors contributed to the magical sound of pre 1960 valve amps. Some valve amp manufacturers today, who cater to the occult market, use rectifier valves and old style electros". |
Helping a friend wire in a new crossover for his 1990 Khorns. He is currently using a SS amp (trying to get him to throw it out!) and his crossover has poly caps in it for the new crossover and original. To be honest I can not really hear any difference from either original poly or new ones. (both not good) The tone is radically different from mine!... He does have a vintage tube amp though with foil caps. I have loaned him some of the original Aerovox foil Klipsch caps for the speaker crossover which are surprising good in the midrange. (not really a big deal different from Duelund VSF in the midrange) He does not have Alnico magnets though. His amp has the vintage German Vishay Ero Fol II. In tests to me they sound exactly like Tony Gee rated 11+ Ampohm caps. I have both. I am going to set up friends Khorns with a vintage caps (my old ones) vs. the poly to see what "he" thinks. (in the crossover) More tests to come with a local amp builder to work on my gear this is great! He does a lot of guitar amp work as well. So he deals with the tone crowd all the time. It is nice to have everything tested first class. Many discussions with him and his vintage guitar amp customers. (about tone what matters and what doesn't) He fixed my amp that caught fire explaining to me what happened and how the circuit is not stable. One bad tube and everything melts down but it does sound great! I have set it up in an all vintage office system speakers and amp. (Linn Karik and Numerik for CD)(no expensive Duelund parts to keep a reference) Looking forward to trying Duelund CAST as a bypass on the power supply of main system. |
Tests coming up. 1 ASC poly caps as power supply vs. vintage. The amp will be worked on again to get up to snuff. 2. Plastic vs. paper bobbin in the autoformer in the speaker crossover. (friend has bought a new autoformer same specs)(if I can borrow) 3. Duelund CAST as a bypass cap in the power supply. Nice to know all tubes and amps completely tested now. |
Plus a re-test of my Duelund VSF in series tweeter inductor... This was the only Duelund part I could not use before. Now with all Duelund caps in the amp it is much quieter. Last time I knew the Duelund inductor was technically superior to the vintage wax paper inductor which deadened the sound and choked off much signal but Duelund tilted the balance of the speaker. My speakers are now slightly dark. |
I like em.... But I put them in a couple of 'unusual' uses. First I've got a pr. of JBL Pro 'slot' super tweeters. These had a 1.0 uf Dayton cap, but required a 1.7 so I put in a pr. of 1.0 & .68s. Instant upgrade as you could hear the extended reach, particularly 'lower down' for a fuller & more fleshed out treble. The 'other' way I used them is inside my power conditioner. A passive filtering type unit w/separate digital & amplifier inputs with matching outlets, fronted by CMCs. I used prs. of 4.7s & 3.0s on the neutral to ground outlets of the amp & preamp sections. I prefer Mundorf S/G/O on the digital section outlets. A pr, of 3.3s. As Grannyring states the caps r very good. They r physically small, but I've compared them against others I'm familiar with, Clarity MRs, Sonicap Platinums, CuTF V-Caps. They 'play well' w/the Mundorfs. |
Grannyring I have not actually bought any parts lately. The Duelund tweeter inductor I had. The Duelund CAST to use on the power supply I have. Part of me needs to know why those caps would be so good? I am not saying they are not just why? I can see them competing against the "Clarity MRs, Sonicap Platinums, CuTF V-Caps. They 'play well' w/the Mundorfs" That would make them a great bargain for sure as those caps mentioned are much more expensive. The friend came over with the Khorns to hear the system. The first thing he did was get out his iPhone to test SPL thinking it was louder... It is the dynamics. It is no comparison to his. He has poly caps regular Sonicaps or origials. I am somewhat surprised that it is not mentioned more about the CAST incredible dynamics. The ratio of the signal turning to mush is astonishingly low. |
