Duelund out vintage back in and much better.
These parts make a BIG difference, meaning parallel.
Play with DCR like playing with fire. |
Changing the DCR can alter the transfer function and overall driver efficiency. You should keep the DCR within 10%(preferably 5%) of the original value. |
What's the difference in DCR between the two coils? |
Recently I have installed Clarity Cap MR .47 uf values at the output of my hybrid Altmann Dac. I attached the MR's to Audiopoint 1.0's using Loctite Red as the bonding material. The points pressed down into the wooden chassis of the Altmann and secured in place with a few drops of the red stuff. The result is great improvement in dynamic expression and transparency. The range of dynamic improvement is very linear from top to bottom with no emphasis or restriction. When an expression suddenly happens on the sound stage it is just that... all with no shout. When the sound walks away from the front to the back of the stage the movement can be easily seen as a smooth and musical progression. Tom |
DCR is a very critical factor when modding a speaker system. For me once upon a time, a reduction of the DCR seemed to lower the Q of a speaker that already had a reported low Q. The result was much less weight and impact in the lower mid-bass and down even lower. My next speaker mod will have outboard crossovers where I can easily adjust mechanical tuning methods and have easy access to components and their replacement. Tom |
I am trying to get an accurate measurement of the two but do not. The Duelund is somewhere around .1 DCR a little less I think. |
Ask the Gents at Duelund to measure the value you have and then post it here. You have the original..North Creek also has published DCR's on their site for the relative gauges of inductors they offer. DCR values may have predictable though differing effects in a parallel circuit versus one that is a series circuit? Tom |
Well Duelund? If you see this could you post?
Is DCR something that could be said not to mess with? Twice I did and both times not good results assuming the Duelund is of different DCR. |
Well I will say this depending on the model of speaker who is to say the DCR was even correct in the first place. Like I said fact is that most manufactures of speakers under 5000 probably don't take account of it at all in the design, mostly looking for the mH, uF values to match as close as possible.
The last 10 years of Klipsch models have proven inferior with 2 dollar crossover parts anyway, I have virtually halved the DCR using Coils from North creek, and Alpha core with actually far better and more transparent sound. Of course this could make a Tweeter sound a little hotter, but then adjustment via the capacitor and or an "ADDED" L pad can tame this nicely even if the driver did not originally have a resistor in the circuit. Sometimes with horns its almost a must to pad them down a bit to smooth them out.
I have not done any heritage models myself accept heard a pair of Cornwalls with new crossovers. I have done the reference series and KLH series etc... And everytime adjustments in original design or values were needed to really compensate for the computer modeled basic crossovers used. Then again I have not dealt much with the "Autoformer" driven Klipsch designs. |
Undertow
Mine are for sure the vintage Klipsch with foil capacitors (stock) and Alnico magnet drivers and wire wound wax paper inductors.
I can not agree more that Klipsch not really using anything decent anymore but many companies use garbage parts as well now and often in big $ speakers.
I am not saying changing the DCR will always be bad but it will change the sound. I guess that is why it is called a balancing network and changing DCR changes the balance.
I am curious of the pro's and cons of the Autoformer??? |
Being you don't have much in the way of choice on speaker position as I assume your stuck in corners via K-Horns, and you are directly replacing networks with just the stock design and values you may have difficulty ever getting this full project exacly where you want to go. Almost everytime I have changed a Cable, a Cap, An inductor it has changed the Toe in - out direction of the drivers, the distance from the walls, the distance between them etcÂ…
To compensate for soundstage and frequency shifts.
If your locked into one spot with with something like K-horns its difficult to say how you can easily accomidate any acoustic changes which do occur with new crossover parts. |
If you put your K-Horns on Sistrum Sp101's while still in the corner it will change your life. Tom |
Just back checking strictly Silver Wire. The bass is the biggest difference. Much tighter with Duelund. The stranded plastic gives a mushy droning sound. There is a for sure echo with plastic.
One question I wonder though is the cost of Silver worth it? Why not just flat copper, Duelund? This might be a much better cost option for most people.
This drone/echo in my guess causes the big difference in dynamics in the two wires.
Is this the technical equivalent of wearing plastic from head to toe? We would heat up really fast! There has been many fans of cotton. Is silk just one step more? Where does the heat go with plastic wire?
I am not sure but would like to hear cotton wrapped solid flat copper. I bet you are a very good chunk of the way there at much less cost?
Is there actual numbers on heat retention of plastic vs. cotton vs. silk. I know regular people wear cotton not silk. |
And some wear baby blue polyester stripes..If you look bad does that mean you can't hear well? Could be a sure sign of DHS or deficient hearing syndrome. Tom |
Hi Tom
What is Sistrum Sp101's? |
Sp 101's are are specialized Speaker stands, expensive but I think still less than a couple foot of Duelund wire! I have used them in some rooms with luck, they are for large floor standing speakers. Spikes are on both sides of the stand so they are in contact with the bottom of the speaker and the floor, basically making them sorta float removing even more of the floor and room out of the acoustic equation. |
The Sistrum stands are made by Star Sound Technologies:
http://www.starsoundtechnologies.com/
|
Volleyguy,
Every progression you have made over the course of this thread your choice of caps your choice of inductors your exposure to different wires all have a common link...resonance control. I may have missed your comments on the application of resonance control to the largest radiator in your playback system...the speaker cabinet. Unless properly grounded and terminated vibrational fundamentals and their near endless harmonics are radiated from the cabinet along with the intended music originals from the drivers themselves. Like your horns vibration can be give direction and focus. As in other components you have now adopted and admire, resonance collection and mechanical grounding are key to musical performance. |
Volleyguy
Thanks for starting this thread. You should be commended for your diligence and open minded approach to all that is audio.
Tom |
Thanks Tom
Not to be noble as I for sure started with a closed mind. It was hearing a full signal chain that was vintage tube amp and foil capacitors speakers and amp that made me realize things were not moving forward. I was quite shocked.
Mostly I did not understand why?
I do now. Follow the $$$. Business always looking to make things cheaper and I do not blame them. Charge as much as possible and give as little as possible makes for happy shareholders.
I was always thinking name brand big $$$ gear now more of a concept. Simple crossovers with high quality parts.
I can not even imagine buying an amp or speakers without knowing what they are using for parts. Yet much expensive gear is not sold on the parts quality? |
Agreed, Volleyguy! And audio magazine reviewers generally don't tell us what parts are used in the products. |
Jburidan
I do get things from both sides. I am very glad I bought many of my parts before the prices have went up so much. The sound is fantastic but I would not want to make a business case for using parts of such cost. I should total my parts today but likely $3k per speaker in wiring and crossover parts. My old stock speakers would total $20-30 per speaker in crossover parts and wiring. If I was in the business??? Using the 6 to 1 ratio meaning $3k of parts would need $18k per speaker extra at retail.
Is it me or has Duelund raised prices again? I have to go through some old bills. On that note has anyone tried the Alexander line? I have one pre-amp cap in the one side that is still a Jensen Paper tube. The Duelund Alexander is cheaper than the Jensen. |
How can you make a logical and sound desesion when listening to one component change in one speaker for 300 consecutive hours? Any less time is not a valid sonic comparison. Is the glass half empty or is it half full? One of each will not give a fair representation of the soundstage image placement. Two corrective or compensating lenses must be installed correctly or you may not be able to walk or drive safely. It must be likened to wearing one tennis shoe on the left foot and and wearing a dress loafer with a leather sole on the right foot. Fit finish texture air contact touch breath all are relayed as a pair to the left side and the right side of our brain. Our apendages are plural as are all of our sensory receptors and transmitters. |
Tom
Not sure what you are saying? Are you talking about the Duelund inductor? or something else or everything? Not hard at all to hear one speaker compared to the other? Mono recordings.
Both speakers are still hooked up? Much tougher to do from memory, I think. I think at fist of course we hear change but is it better? After a long period of time hearing both speakers the newness wears off and you really know if you like it better.
I think buying gear in the store on a 1 hour demo is crazy!
If one changes both channels you are going by memory back and forth. In the beginning I kept one speaker stock and the other changed with new parts. Better was REALLY easy to hear at times not so at others.
Yes there are image issues for sure. When you have one speaker with Duelund Silver wire and the other with stranded copper plastic they almost sound out of phase.
This can be a difficult test. |
Theaudiotweak,
I have argued this point of testing one stereo channel at a time from the beginning with this project way back... So I just wanted to state it has been pointed out several times. Nobody seemed to care, basically Duelund is a very good cap no doubt. Single or pair fine, but many fine caps that are easily in competition have been looked over and they need to be heard in pairs including the duelunds...
You cannot ultimately take it too serious without a pair working, way to many factors involved, a single fitted inductor on one speaker vs. two will definitely sound harsher, but the combination of 2 higher resolution pieces together can in fact sound smoother and bigger than the originals. Its just not the way it was tested in this thread.
And again it goes back to the point this is one of the harder designs to deal with being a K-horn, your old school, locked into a corner, very difficult acoustic environment and several other factors to feed a system like this. They are good, but its difficult to say ultimately what is working better or not from the info on this thread. |
Undertow
Yes I know their are others that have argued the point against the test methods involved. I did not revisit all 1400 posts I suppose my post had to do with how one's body may react to the nature of the test procedure. We don't react to music with just our ears but also with our skin, bones, muscles as well as our eyes.
Resonance control in the form of mechanical grounding should have been applied to these speakers before this whole process was started. The largest radiator is the cabinet not the speaker drivers.
Even though these speakers are meant to be corner loaded having the pair side by side in the middle of the room may also offer a more plausible placement for voicing. The corners may be built out differently, one corner being on an inside wall one being on an outside wall. The structure and integrity of these areas may differ in rigidity. One speaker maybe located closer to or even over a support beam in the house which could influence the perceived outcome. Openings into the room left or right may change the frequency balance. Tube age or differential in switches balance controls and volume controls could also alter perception.
Being a Doubting Thomas by nature I still have to give Volleyguy credit for starting this whole public adventure. Probably he has given many members further favorable thoughts and a few doubts as how to advance their own sound system. Tom |
Tom
In the start of this thread I was not really trying to sway someone one way or the other. Just hoping to give someone an idea of what to expect. (info I was looking for) I do say try for one to try themself and give a good idea where to start, like tweeter caps.
I could make a really good case against changing in pairs. You must then go to memory. How accurate is one's memory? Mine is not very good. I can go from speaker to speaker and feel it out over a long period of time, with the money already being spent. Duelund is not about imaging but harmonic structure.
I also think when we first buy something we hear something different, but is it better? Time does tell this. I think there is bias to when buying in pairs to think it better after all we spent a pile of money it better be better!
Take the speaker wire for example I bought enough for one speaker from Irish65. After a long period of time I have sent him money to buy the other side.
It is just simply better. It is not that I wanted to send Irish a pile of money!
I must admit my biggest worry is someone is going to come out with something better than CAST or VSF for $50 a cap! In fact that is what made me buy Ampohms, but no way. They tilt the sound. Is the Alexander going to be that? As good as CAST for 1/10 the money?
There must have been a reason Steen thought that this must be hand made? He did say for example an inductor would have to be big and have a lot of copper (or Silver or whatever) no way around it. |
Sorry that response should have been to Undertow who has been skeptical of testing methods all along.
I did buy several amps at the start of the test but have been using just two lately and only one for the last while. This is for lazy reasons (now) it takes awhile to change all those caps. In fact at the start I used (several) tube and modern SS and (still) vinyl and digital. I felt like Tom I wanted to make sure it was not somethign else. Now there is no doubt to me.
I must say again I am using Lascala's and the crossover is going into Khorns which are of course more difficult to work with and as pointed out are corner sensitive so maybe not ideal for a test. I can also say I have owned these speaker for 30yrs so am very familiar as to how they sound.
I have a friend who did buy Khorns (and same amp) after hearing these speakers and after listening to some very expensive systems. He is in the process of doing a whole sound room. (I think he is becoming obsessed)
I have also said he thinks both speakers sound fantastic Duelund Silver wire or not. He does admit to hearing a difference (cleary) but does not know what to make of it? |
Not having a matched pair of speakers throws any spacial comparisons(imaging/soundstage) out the window. |
Volleyguy, Theaudiotweak,
By the way I was not attacking the validity of the thread or posters, maybe it looked like it, sorry. I just had to point it out, because there is a HUGE difference in running the true stereo pair you might think a cap is not that great on one side fine, but guaranteed the results may not be recognizable if you run the whole system as intended so all this talk about "Something sounds plastic", or "To resonant" really does not matter if your not loading the room properly in the first place with true stereo imaging and all hands on deck to evaluate a true components potential.
Face, In a single sentence made the point above, I just like to talk :-)
"Not having a matched pair of speakers throws any spacial comparisons(imaging/soundstage) out the window." |
Face
Agreed on image or sound stage.
I admitted a long time ago a poly cap vs. foil caps sound out of phase and is hard to listen too. Same thing with plastic covered wire and silk wire and the difference is easy to hear.
I can make an argument on sound stage. When I hear live music there is over lap of the instruments. I think that is an audio thing sound stage and imaging (not a bad thing mind you) more then reality. The last time I listened to a small jazz trio I did not know (eyes closed) if the drummer was behind the saxophone player or the bass player and by much, there is overlap in sound.
I remember in my old system thinking of who was in front of whom. When I listen to live music if the band is close there is overlap.
Small string quartet the same thing the sounds overlap.
The Viola player and the Violin are not seperated. They overlap there is no way to stop it.
I feel (live) sound just does not work that way. Sound overalaps by radiating out from the source. In Audio in can be seperated by a small sound stage.
Duelund parts as you know Face are about tonality. They make each instrument sound more like the real deal. Noise reduction as well in case of CAST for sure.
My system is about LIFE size sounds. The piano seems as big as a real one.
What you mentioned is the exact first thing people say about my system. ``It doesn`t even sound like a stereo`` it freaks them out. |
VG, as suggested by the other posters, it is fruitless to pursue a test methodology in which you listen to a stereo signal with different L/R components. I just went through this experiment in the course of upgrading from a well broken in ESS Sabre DAC chip in stereo mode to a dual mono configuration in which the broken-in stereo chip was restrapped to produce one channel in mono, and a fresh mono DAC chip was added to handle the opposite channel. I wired the two chips at random so I would not know which channel belonged to which chip. As I had earlier determined that a long break-in was necessary to bring out the best in the ESS chip, I fully expected to hear a significant difference from L to R.
In practice, the upgrade to dual mono produced an immediate improvement in perceived performance of both channels, but I could not hear any difference between L and R performance. As the new chip(in whichever unidentified channel) progressed through the break-in cycle, it became obvious that the entire stereo presentation was improving, but still impossible to associate this improvement with either channel. This proved to me that the mind hears an inextricable complicity between L and R that cannot be unraveled. It has nothing to do with plastic v. silk, phasing, or the like. |
dgarretson
How did you end up feeling about the Silver Wire?
How did you determine a long break in was needed?
To be honest I doubt long break in periods and wonder how much of that is us getting used to the part? Are you talking the same chip? If so I can easily imagine not hearing a difference.
If I had one speaker with the same caps as the other but one new and one broke in I do not think I could hear the difference? |
Volleyguy, I won't debate break-in phenomena at length here, but IME some rather obvious changes sometimes occur through long break-in cycles-- particularly with digital circuits and caps and cables. After further break-in the HF of Duelund 2.0 V2 wire has opened and become airier. There is always the possibility of some sort of confirmation bias taking place over time, but personally I have more faith in my ears than that.
I'm not suggesting that you can't hear a difference from L to R when using different piece parts in your L and R speakers. However it's at best a confusing test methodology that will likely miss the finer points in operation as components reach a high level of performance. My little DAC mod experiment was the best example that I could give of how such improvements are perceived by two ears in stereo.
In another context, consider that some listeners with asymmetrical hearing loss claim to experience a balanced L/R stereo image. |
Hi Face.
After have gone through the must of this excellent
post i wonder if you are the person with this xover
for tannoy hpd-385a.
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65991&page=2
If you are the lucky owner i would very must like, if
it's possible , to use your diagram it looks nice.
/Best Michael
|
dgarretson
How did you end up feeling about the Silver Wire?
How did you determine a long break in was needed?
To be honest I doubt long break in periods and wonder how much of that is us getting used to the part? Are you talking the same chip? If so I can easily imagine not hearing a difference.
If I had one speaker with the same caps as the other but one new and one broke in I do not think I could hear the difference? |
Wow Dave! (Dgarretson)
You modify everything! I knew you were doing lots but I did not know that much.
I should put some pics of my system up. (for sure of the crossover) Pretty dull though just caps and inductors and wire.
My turntable, CD player, Linn Lingo power supply all stock or almost. (just the base of the LP12 changed)
The friend who did hear the system had some of the same concerns as you guys. He said yes I hear a difference for sure but was not sure what caused it? He never heard before and after the Silver wire.
I just switched speakers from side to side by results still the same. (so not the speakers) I already moved tubes from side to side but results still the same. (so not the tubes) I could not get over how much more dynamic Silver wire was and already thought it tubes, but not that.
A good amount of scepticism is healthy in Audio for sure. |
Volleyguy , i have read all of your post , and after these
i have decided to go for the 1.5 uF cu Cast Duelund for my
Tannoy HPD-385a , thanks for your effort.
Yesterday i talked to a guy from abaudio.dk here in Denmark
and he told me that there is a difference between DueLund Alexander and the VSF and is very significant.
They are in stock here in Denmark , and after the burn-in on
the Mundorf-Supreme silver-gold-oil in my Tanny , i would try them in my tube pre-amp.
One of my very good friends has a pair of Klipsch laScala like yours and i have told him about your tweaks.
So Please post some PICS of your modded x-overs it would be
very interesting.
Thanks for your great effort.
/Best Michael |
Will do that Micheal. Likely this week on crossover pics.
They sound wayyyyy better than stock Lascala's.
Interesting on the Alexander's. I would have thought them not to sound as good as VSF. In Steen's writing and making the VSF he talked how they needed to be made by hand. Not sure why?
CAST are amazing very low noise caps. Please post what you think after. |
Volleyguy,
I think you misunderstand Michael's post - AB Audio will certainly not have called the Alexander better than the VSF. Not that the Alexander is bad by any means - at least not to my ears. ;) |
VolleyGuy , abaudio.dk in Denmark means that the cu-VSF is
much better than the alexander.
But how do they compare to Mundorf Supreme Silver Gold Oil..
Would like to try them in my pre-amp ...
Is the VSF a serious enought upgrade for the tweeter in your
Klipsch , the Cast-cu cost $$$$ 2 times 2uf...
/Best Michael |
Michaelvv,
I had the Mundorf S/G/O in a pair of speakers but changed them out for the VSF copper. The S/G/O had too much emphasis on the high frequencies for me. The VSF, on the other hand, sounded faster and richer, with great detail. In my system and for my taste, I enjoyed the VSF much more than the S/G/O. |
Sorry Duelund
I must have posted late or tired? My English was not clear.
I would expect the Alexander "not" to sound as good as VSF was in reference to what Steen had said about the VSF having to be hand made. I know the Alexander is machine wound. (so I would not expect them to sound as good or why would you do all that work by hand?)
Steen was saying (at least in my reading) that there was no way to machine make the VSF and I understood him to mean now or in the likely future?
Sorry I did not mean the Alexander to sound better. I think you took that from another post I said it would be my only fear that someone (possibly you) will come out with $50 cap or less that sounds as good or better. (meaning machine cap prices) |
Micheal
I first bought VSF for the tweeter and had 2 VSF (in series) and then bought CAST caps. I tried back and forth with the all combinations and ended going CAST followed by VSF. (partly because I already owned VSF but really liked the combination)
CAST and CAST or CAST then VSF were my favourites of the combinations. (wayyyy better than VSF & VSF) VSF can be flatter sounding. They resonate and lose some dynamics compared to CAST.
If you read from a long time ago and I am not sure I would want to go back through all of it. I was shocked when the CAST went in over the VSF to the point of putting my ear to the tweeter to see if it was working! (it is that big and that is coming from VSF) Before I put them in I was wondering would I even hear a difference? After I could not believe it!
I said Tony Gee should rate the CAST a 17 if VSF is a 12. This was before Tony came out with the ratings.
Going to two CAST tweeter caps is something I may want to revist. I think Duelund said it on here before Steen thought the CAST added nothing to the sound and even the VSF does. (CAST tilts to more bass due to no noise)
I find CAST more demanding of upstream components though.
Sorry for the ramble. In speakers CAST are "somewhat affordable" in low voltage high uf's. For tweeters this may be the one spot we can afford to try CAST but there is a very big difference.
Things I wish I could still hear. (if only I was made of money)
1. CAST woofer inductor (I bet amazing and I can not imagine a downside)(mine is VSF)
2. CAST in Electronics.
3. CAST power supply. (complete dream land) |
Volleyguy , just to clear things out.. On the tweeter 2 CAST +
2 VSF would be FINE :-) The Klipsch La Scala guy would get
a heart attach when i told him the price.
Properly stupid in your world , have you tried 2 CAST + 2 Mundorf in the tweeter.
The reason WHY at all , this would give him some GAIN in performance and then later on he could upgrade to VSF.
When i got the pictures from your modified crossover , i will
contact him immediately.
/best Michael |
Micheal
Yes I did do some of that to start with. I had a VSF followed by a Mundorf Supreme. Yes much better than stock foil caps. (before that a Mundorf Supreme followed by Sonicap then two Mundorfs)
I am not sure if you have heard of Tempo Electrics cap review but I agreed with them. I thought the Mundorf Supreme was pretty good for the $$$. (way better than a cheap poly cap) I had the Mundorf Silver in Oil (still do) and thought it tilted the sound to the treble and cost a lot more.
It is 1+1 for "AA" networks Klipsch.
My crossover is not modded in the sense it is still a "AA" network of course with a much larger footprint because of parts size but still a "AA". I just replaced parts with the same value. |
Price I paid was $250 for CAST 2.0uf 100v now $362.77 up 45% in U.S. $.
My 13uf VSF was $335 now $585. Up 75%.
Wonder why the VSF has went up more. Both a lot for the U.S. $ thank goodness the C$ has taken much of the sting out.
Hmmmmm the Mundorf Supreme has went down in price over 10% in U.S. $ |
Hi Volleyguy
I am waiting for a diagram from face , so i have to be
a little patient before i can play with duelund cast.
My Tannoys was much better in overall performance when
i altered the 1.5 uF to the mundorf silver-gold-oil.
Yes the Duelund is extremely expensive but properly worth
the cost , and we'll contribute to the danish economy , which i am a part of :-)
/best Michael
|
Hi VolleyGuy
Just in the waiting time here are some pics of my humble
setup , hope to see your crossover someday :-)
http://hifimaniac.blogspot.com/2011/06/pictures-of-my-setup.html
/Best Michael |
Hi Micheal
I will get to those pics nothing special though really as far as fancy box or anything.
I think I have driven up the Danish GDP around .1%. |
