Your saying you have Duelunds on the Tweeters already? If so leave them, when I say 100% one or the other I mean don't mix 2 caps on one Driver, so just go Clarity MR's on the Mids and Woofs then just fine and leave the single Duelund cap on the Tweeter first, thats perfectly fine. I just would not do some kinda 2nd 3rd or 4th order type crossover with more than one cap in the path mixed on one Driver. No reason to waste a perfectly fine Duelund on the tweeter if its complete right now, and just use the MR's on the rest of the drivers is my suggestion, unless I am mis-reading this. Good Luck |
Undertow,
Thank you for your reply, and I apologize for the confusion - I sure wasn't clear what I was talking about in my previous post. The current project involves my pair of Silverline Bolero speakers which still has the 100% stock crossover in it.
The VSF capacitor I mentioned in the previous post went into an earlier set of speakers, a pair of Silverline SR17.5 (2-way) monitor speakers that I ended up selling to a friend to help fund my acquisition of the Boleros. I was trying to relate, albeit poorly, that on the earlier SR17.5 project I had kept the original inductor on the mid/bass driver. The original inductor used a small gauge wire. While the tweeter ended up with a very fast and organic sound thanks to the Duelund capacitor, it always seemed to me that the mid/bass driver couldn't keep up with the Duelund's speed - that it needed a bigger engine behind it.
The Silverline Bolero speaker's stock inductors use a similarly small gauge wire, so on this project I want to make sure that I give the woofer and midrange drivers a more potent engine. That's why I am focused on the larger gauge inductors.
I have not made my final decision on the inductors, but your experience with the 8awg North Creeks compared to the 12awg film inductors was exactly the information I needed to help me make my decision.
I still need to measure the values of the inductors currently in the speakers. If I can match those values using large gauge inductors (10awg) that will fit in the outboard crossover enclosure I have in mind, then the crossover I have envisioned is:
Capacitors: 100% Clarity MR
Resistors: 100% Duelund CAST
Inductors: 100% 10awg Mundorf film
I recognize that with this crossover I am not going to achieve the same results as going 100% Duelund, especially CAST, but I am confident it will be a big improvement over the crossover that's in the speakers now while at the same time fitting within my budget for this project.
I want to thank you again for your time and help, and I apologize for the confusion caused by my previous post.
Best regards,
John |
John,
That being your experience with the inductors I would suggest getting the inductors first. Leave the rest of the Xover as is just change out the inductors.
Let it settle in then evaluate them if they bring any improvement. If you like what they bring to the table then get the Clarity MR 4.7uF cap for the tweeter. I mention this first because this is where you mentioned in your post above that the tweeter with the Duelund cap was faster than the mids/bass because of the inductor.
Once you install them leave them for a few hundred hours and continue to evaluate what you are hearing. If you are happy with it then get the 15uF Clarity MR caps followed by the Cast resistors.
The benefits of this approach is you will gain a working knowledge of what each part in a Xover contributes to the overall sonics and what effect they have on each other. Also you won't put out the scratch for the costly 15uF Clarity MR caps prematurely. |
A cheap experiment might be to just pot the stock inductors in some type of ABS container using epoxy potting compound. That will eliminate the noise from vibrating loosely-wound coils and give some of the effect of a CAST-type inductor while keeping the same inductance and DCR value. If you're just going to toss them then it might be an interesting experiment anyway. |
Ait,
I was going to mention that also but the 3m product to use costs around 15.00-20.00 per tube. From my experience you would need around (5) tubes to do a 14 awg 1.2mH inductor properly. While your add it cut channels for the inductor wire to travel, in the botton of the xover box, and fill this channel with the potting compound. |
Correction of my last post. It should say" While your at it" not "While your add it". |
Irish and Ait,
Thank you both for your replies and for your suggestions about the inductors. My primary motivation for this project is not actually the improvements brought by the inductors per se but rather the improvements that I know an upgrade in capacitors and resistors will make.
On the earlier SR17.5 speaker project, that speaker was a 2-way monitor with a 1st order crossover. There was a single capacitor and resistor going to the tweeter, and a single inductor on the mid/bass driver. I heard the benefit from the capacitor/resistor change, but decided that if I ever did anything like this again that I was going to replace the inductors as well, it is only a question of which type to use.
The experience you and others have shared on this thread has been tremendously helpful and appreciated. I know that I am not going to get the improvements I would if I were to use Duelund (I'm a big fan of that company and its products) but I am confident that I am on a path that will yield very good crossover nonetheless.
Again, thank you for sharing your experience and for taking the time to post your response.
John |
Irish, you can buy potting epoxy in bulk for bigger jobs at a somewhat lower price per unit volume. I've seen up to 16 gallon containers from MG chemicals. It's not really cheap, but it's a lot cheaper than new Duelund or
Northcreek 8 gauge inductors.
In any case, just a thought. |
Ait,
You and I think alike in that regard but I don't think Reynolds853 wants to purchase 16 gallons of potting compound. |
Greetings, I've been following this thread, checking in every once in a while, and am wondering if some of you may have compared Mundorf foil, Goertz foil and the Duelands, all copper?
I'm working on a couple speaker projects and already have Dueland 5.0uF CAST caps on the way but am curious about other's experiences with inductors.
The speakers, 2-way satellites, use a Hiquphon OW4, 3/4" soft-dome tweeter and 5.5" ScanSpeak mid-woofer that's transmission line loaded. The external first order series crossover uses two inductors and one cap, that's it, no resistors on the tweeter mucking things up.
I've already built a couple pairs of these and in the past have used Mundorf Silver/Oil caps and Goertz 12AWG copper foil inductors. I'll add that I'm not unhappy with the results but.... having followed this thread and hearing so many good things about the Duelands, curiosity "forced" me to purchase their CAST caps.
All values being equal, I can't imagine there's a whole lot of sonic difference between the Mundorf copper foil inductor and the Goertz? I've been using Goertz for many years and never felt they were lacking. The Dueland CAST on the other hand, with its "proprietary" damping process, looks to be a different animal? At their price, anybody taken the plunge?
One last thing, while the comparisons may have been discussed earlier in this thread, who's got time to go back and read all the responses? I'd really appreciate any info/opinions from experienced users.
Regards! |
Ait and Irish,
Thank you for your suggestions regarding the potting compound idea, and I apologize for not acknowledging your suggestions before now. I didn't immediately comprehend your suggestion, but I got it now. For this project I am not going to use the stock inductors, but constructing my own improvised CAST-like inductor with whatever new inductors I get is an intriguing idea. I may not pursue it, but I'd like to understand your idea a bit more. Since we're talking about loosely wound wires, here's my loosely wound notes and questions!:
- Is the potting compound you have in mind 3M DP270?
- I wanted to confirm, by ABS, do you mean acrylonitrile butadiene styrene, and where does one find such containers?
- I noted on the North Creek website that their inductors are varnish sealed in a vacuum chamber so that the varnish penetrates into the inner coils.
- In a previous post on this thread regarding his CAST components, Frederick mentioned, “The CAST is special in the sense that we can harden it after the vacuum impregnation.” If Duelund's CAST material is similar to the DP270, then I could well imagine it being a more robust compound than varnish penetrating into the inner coils, but I believe I understand why you were thinking of the potting compound as an additional step taking the inductor in the direction of the CAST system.
- I am intrigued with the idea of doing this with a North Creek inductor. Once I get my inductors measured and the dimensions of the equivalent 10awg and 12awg inductors, I'll calculate the volume of potting compound required. Perhaps an ABS tube down the center of the inductor would be okay to take up some volume, thus reducing the amount of potting compound required to cover the inductor?
- If I go with Mundorf coils it doesn't look like there's any chance of the potting compound penetrating to the inner coils, but the North Creek website mentions possible oxidation issues with foil inductors so the potting compound would certainly eliminate that issue.
This is a really neat suggestion, and as always I thank you for your time and help.
John |
There are a lot of manufacturers, I've used MG Chemicals and GC Electronics epoxies in the past. I'd go with a clear epoxy to avoid any possible ill effects from the filling pigments. I don't see an issue with putting a tube in the center to reduce the volume.
Yes, ABS plastic. Do a search on the net, there are many suppliers of ABS containers, in an almost infinite array of shapes and sizes, with and without lids. You need to figure out the size you need based on the components you want to pot.
If you have a source of vacuum like a vacuum pump and a vacuum container or oven you could pot the item and then draw down a vacuum to assist with the penetration and air bubble removal. Gentle heating can also help with air bubble removal, although it shortens the available working time (pot life). There are even automated industrial vacuum potting systems that maintain the resins and target objects under vacuum during the entire process, but that's only useful if you have access to something like that.
You may want to practice on one of your smaller reject coils first - you wouldn't want to mess up a nice Northcreek. |
John,
The potting compound I was referring to was the 3M DP270. So yes you mentioned the product that I have used. As I am sure you saw it is a relatively small tube so it will take a few to do the job.
I am sure Ait will be able to provide you a contact for the ABS but TDL Plastics has what you are looking for.
I have potted inductors and it does benefit the North Creek inductors as they do have some noise.
You may benefit more from some of the DIY sites as they have more info for what you are doing.
I will add, and this is not intended to offend, that when a project of this undertaking is in it's conceptual phase it is a mistake to say what brand of caps, resistor, and inductors you will use. Having a few caps by different manufacturer's, of the same value to evaluate, would be better than going in blind saying I am using this brand of cap.
Yes you solder it in and it may sound better but it only sounds better than the cheap cap that was already in there.
I understand you have a budget. However, it would be wise to do the xover in stages so you can get the best bang for your buck. If you want to try the the Clarity MR cap then compare it to a Mundorf Silver/oil. Keep the winner and sell the loser. This way your comparing caps that are more equal with each other than the extremes of going from a cheap cap to a very good cap. I also mention this because you stated your concern about the Clarity MR having a "slight focus on the lower treble". How do you know if you can live with this possibility long term? And if not how much will you have to spend later to try and fix it with cables or an amp?
In the end you want your system to cause you to go out and buy more music. |
Rfogel8,
The Mundorf Silver/Oil caps and Goertz 12AWG copper foil inductors are a very good combination. Unfortunately for you to take a step forward in sonics you will have to spend more.
The Cast Duelund cap you purchased will do it. You will know what the buzz is all about when you hear them.
I have built my own speakers, having access to a manufacturing facility, and have tried more caps and inductors than I care to mention. In the end I chose the Duelund Cast Silver for my Xover. I also use a Scan Speak for the mids.
If you have an inductor in series with the tweeter than I cannot recommend the Cast inductor enough. They are dead quiet, you will hear more ambient info, and they sound so natural.
Yes they are pricey. |
John,
Ait gives good advice with sourcing out the vacuum pump for the compound. |
I have used a kitchen pressure cooker hooked to a reasonable priced vacuum pump from McMaster Carr to evacuate air and remove bubbles from exoxy and potting varnish. Seems to work very well. Good luck. |
John
I agree with Irish65 in a big way. I have been away awhile and have not read everything but the Duelund inductor shocked me at how much better it was than stock or the North Creek I was comparing as well. (the stock was a wax paper thin wire inductor)
Most speaker use a VERY cheap inductor that has no way to deal the resonance.
My feeling before I heard it was the inductor was not that important after all how much high freq noise could be caused by the inductor?? Boy was I wrong! Lots!
I believe the reason for this is that most inductors are just garbage! Everyone seems to treat this part as an after thought. So a massive improvement from top quality and junk.
I do not have CAST inductors like Irish but if I had the $$$ I would. I have Duelund WPIO. There is no reason not to have CAST inuctors except $$$. In the case of the inductor CAST is just awesome at blocking noise. I have not heard CAST as an inductor just a CAST cap so base that comment on that.
I also agree with Irish on you really go on a thread like this and you can narrow your list but I would buy a few choices till I heard the differnce. Only you can tell what is worth it and what is better.
One thing I did to save money was always buy one cap or inductor first. That is how this started comparing just one Duelund VSF and Mundorf parts. I order the VSF with the idea I am just throwing some money away but let's hear the fuss.
Not sure how much Frederik liked this buying one at time but they are expensive.
You really can not know what you will end with till you hear them.
The key thing in this thread is start with a set of speakers you REALLY like to begin with. I think you may find you are in essence done with trading speakers after that. (so likely your last speakers)
I bought Sonicaps, Mundorf Supreme's and Silver and Oil, North Creek inductors, Jensen Paper in Oil and of course the Duelund VSF, CAST and Duleund WPIO inductors.
What sounds like budget saving idea buying cheaper parts ends up costing more. All of the parts are gone or not used except the Jensen and Duelund parts. All at a loss of course.
When this thread started I was not thinking of blowing a wad on parts!
For example I expect there will be wayyyy more difference in a Duelund inductor and stock inductor than Jensen Copper Paper tube and Duelund VSF.
Tweeter caps is another good area to test as this part really matters as well.
Irish65 I am going to reread you part about series tweeter inductors. I have not replaced mine yet. You have got me thinking about that part??? |
Volleyguy,
You are a perfect example of what I was saying to John. You and I have talked and you were reluctant to put out more cash for parts but in the end look what you learned and look where your system is because of it.
The important thing to note is when you said " The key thing in this thread is start with a set of speakers you REALLY like to begin with. I think you may find you are in essence done with trading speakers after that. (so likely your last speakers)"
If the speakers you have do not fit that criteria then do not bother or go the cheapest route with parts. However, if your speakers are keepers then investing in the filter is a wise investment.
You can spend more and more money on an expensive amp but in the end it will only amplify the noise from the crossover. A cheaper amp with speakers having better crossover parts will yield better results. |
Roger
Have you doped any inductors with Cascade Audio V-Bloc? I know you have used this paint or compound for other uses. I did paint 2 North Creek inductors with this rock hard drying paint and it did reduce the Q by about 30%. I did not however make a before and after listening comparison...like I usually do for reference purposes. I will be sure to listen first before any application to the next pair. Tom |
Tom,
I've been meaning to get up with you. I have used the Cascade on inductors but in an inductor power supply for my Wadia. In this case I did not hear the before so as you I cannot comment.
As you know I have used it and it does work well with coating the inside of a speaker cabinet as you have mentioned. I have used it on expensive drivers and in the end I threw the drivers away.
The potting compound was designed for the application that is mentioned with the inductors. Look at Tweek Geek and click the new Bybee conditioner. They have the lid off and you will see they have potted everything. So potting a transformer in an amp or CDP is possible.
Potting a North Creek inductor allows you to fill the center and put a 1/4x20 brass spacer while wet. Once dry run a 1/4x20 brass bolt thru it to the bottom of the xover into a brass 1/4x20 insert. It will act as an Audiopoint. Just keep the inductor 1/4 inch of the bottom of the xover.
From my experience there is no silver bullet with this stuff. If the drivers have excessive resonance then I am sure the Cascade would work great. In the application I was applying it, as you are familiar with, it was counter productive.
|
Roger,
As you know there is a big benefit in hard coupling any power transformer to the chassis with brass instead of the ferrous steel and rubber materials usually the defaults in audio. With the inductors coated in Cascade I plan on the outboard crossover components hard mounted with insulating washers made of mypingo the same wood that clarinets are made and then direct coupled with brass fasteners and audiopoints to either a panel of mypingo or brass. I plan on using the same method with the Clarity D Tact caps which maybe by accidental design are perfect for the same mechanical grounding methods as will be applied to the inductors. The same mechanical tuning methods that you and I know work so well with speaker drivers and cabinets can also be applied and tuned easily to the components of an outboard speaker crossover or power supply. Perhaps non potted components will react more musically to outboard tuning than ones that are damped or overdamped by potting methods alone? Tom |
May Duelund comment here on the possible benefit of doping a speaker inductor and the reduction/lowering of its Q ? Tom |
Irish65,
Thanks for your response. It was pretty much what I expected and as you say, one cap and a couple inductors in series, everything makes a difference and every change can be heard.
I shudder to think what you spent on the Dueland silver pieces but I understand your thinking. If your speakers are keepers, as mine are, then you might as well get the very best out of them. I know from experience, silver(done right) can take things up to another level.
I recently dropped some serious change on new Siltech G7 Series silver/gold interconnects and speaker cables and all I can say is, WOW! Like making a major component upgrade. I had a similar but less dramatic experience some years ago switching from Kimber's copper phono cable to their silver TAK cable; big improvement.
Though I'm "married with children" and quite happy with the Mundorf Silver/Oil, Goertz mix, I may look into the CAST copper inductors too. Since I already have the CAST copper caps coming, now might be a good time to do a total Dueland "makeover"?
|
I want to thank each of you again for the help you have given me and for sharing your thoughts and experiences. You have all been very thoughtful with your responses, and very generous with your time that it took to write them, and I again wanted to express my appreciation. Given the philosophical nature of some of the recent responses, I wanted to explain the reasoning behind the course I have decided to take so as to avoid giving the impression with any future questions that I had not appreciated or recognized the wisdom of your suggestions.
I have speakers that I intend to own for a long time and I could live with them as-is very happily. I would not have bought them otherwise. I believe that Duelund CAST would be the best way to extract their full potential, but as I have mentioned previously my goal with this project is to extract as much from them as I can on a smaller budget.
When I decided to undertake this project the caps that immediately came to mind were Mundorf Supreme, Mundorf S/O, Mundorf S/G/O, Clarity MR, and Deulund VSF. I arrived at the decision to try the Clarity MR was based on the following:
- As I read this thread, and I have read it in its entirety, the MR was for one of you the last cap standing, so-to-speak, before the full transition into Duelund, so I figured that was a good place to start.
- My experience with the Mundorf S/G/O was with a Dynaudio Esotec tweeter. This project involves a Dynaudio Esotar tweeter. The fact that I am already making such a big change from my previous speaker makes me willing to establish a new baseline with the MR, Tony Gee's comments about its sonic nature notwithstanding.
- Neither the S/O and S/G/O are available in a 15mF value and I'd rather just try a single MR.
- While the MR is certainly a compromise compared to the Duelund, several of its attributes described on this thread are appealing.
- I do not foresee to changing my preamp, amp or cablin. I have access to quite a lot of tubes that I can use to make further refinements as long as the MR gets me close to where I want to be.
- Duelund CAST resistors are a no-brainer.
- From my prior project I know I want to try larger inductors, but which ones, that is the question. That's where the most recent responses have been so helpful. I haven't decided which way to go yet. A potted North Creek is attractive because I could just send the stock inductors to North Creek, have them measure their values, and then build the new ones. On the other hand, there's a chart on the Mundorf website showing how quiet the 10awg foil inductor is already, and maybe I could pot one of those. I'd just get my stock inductors measured elsewhwere. I'm still digging around trying to figure this one out, but the fact that you guys told me about doing this is really great and I am truly thankful to you.
John |
John,
I understand more clearly now that you have explained where you are coming from. The Clarity MR is a well balance cap.
My intent was not to pound my point across but to let you be aware of the pitfalls. I have dealt with people who said what you are only to jump on the upgrade wagon. This is audio after all. That was why I wanted you to be aware of what could happen.
I feel you have set your coarse and I wish you well on the journey you are to embark upon. |
Rfog18,
Because your inductors are in series with the tweeter I am assuming they are a small value. Under 1.0 mH perhaps.
You may have already mentioned this but are your xovers internal or external?
Look at the Cast this way. With the dollar losing value and the threat of losing the privilege as the worlds currency, having some commodities such as copper might prove a wise investment :-) |
Reynolds853
Not to throw a monkey in the wrench or is it the other way around?
But, I will say this the Jupiter new beeswax "HT" cap is REALLY killer. And I have used this in electronics now as a coupling cap not speakers, it is virtually equal to the Duelund VSF. It is a bit softer than the Clarity MR, and a little warmer than the Duelund, so its somewhere between, they are reasonably priced about what the MR's are at this point I believe.
Not to much info on them, they came out about a year ago I believe. NOT the standard Jupiters, they are HT's for High temperature. They seem to be sold out everywhere I ordered them at the time.
This is another option I can endorse, whether it would provide the absolute resolution of the Clarity MR, or the full organic sense of the Duelund in every case I don't know, but for a fact I can tell you that this cap is very ORGANIC and smooth, with good detail, and even more Robust bass than I have heard from most other caps in electronic full range applications.
Might be worth trying one in your tweeter or something and compare to a MR' of equal value and see where it takes you for small upfront test fee to see the direction, they do take some hours to burn in, at least 25 hours before they open up...
Currently I use all MR's bypassed by the Mundorf Silver oils and have no desire to change this but the SINGLE value Jupiters I feel would be about equal for less money and space needed. Just an option I felt was necessary to throw out there, as I did mention this way back in the thread somewhere and it got lost. Good luck |
By the way I have a pair of 1.0 uF Clarity CAP MR's in excellent shape left over from a project if anybody needs them for a good price. Probably less than 50% for the pair shipped, email me if interested. |
Undertow,
I have used the Jupiter HT and think they are a very good cap. They don't have the tonal balance or naturalness of the Duelunds. They are no doubt warmer. The Clarity MR and Jupiters pair well together. This would help prevent tilting the sonics in one direction.
Jeff over @ Sonic Craft has them and usually can get them to you the same week you order. |
Irish,
Thank you for your reply. I did not take your suggestions as your trying to pound across your point. I am keenly aware that you and the other members are genuinely trying to help. Your sincerity has never been lost on me, and the time you have taken to help me has always been appreciated.
I was feeling bad that you and several others were spending more of your time trying to provide guidance when in fact I had reached a comfortable launching point for the project based not only on your advice but for reasons I had not communicated – based on the merits of the MR cap as well as through a process of elimination of other options that I just didn't want to try. I wanted to acknowledge your replies - I certainly did not want to come across as ignoring your suggestions or as being unappreciative. The only considerate thing I could think to do was to explain my thoughts more completely. I am glad that you received my explanation in the friendly spirit in which it was intended.
Undertow and Irish,
I finished writing the above note and just found your comments about the Jupiter HT cap. There's certainly no problem with throwing a monkey in the wrench! I'm going to dig around a little and come back with a few questions if you both don't mind. As always, I appreciate your help! |
Irish65,
Yep, I'm using a .22mH inductor on the tweeter, the other is a .665. I know, everybody makes a .668 but a friend(he too rolls his own) and I decided after much listening, that we slightly preferred a value of .665 on the ScanSpeak. Alpha Core was more than willing to make them for us. If I went with Dueland CAST, I could live with .668 and in the end, the sound would be ever so slightly more laid back; not necessarily a bad thing.
I always make my crossovers external; hate those vibrations! So... how much am I really going to gain by using Dueland's potted coils? I know, it's probably more than just their compression/potting technique? On the other hand, copper is copper and once you get past 99.99% pure, blah, blah, blah, what's the difference?
Another question; I have a pair of Goertz silver foil inductors lying around here collecting dust. I forget the values(definitely higher than .22mH) but my buddy has the capability to measure them so we could easily trim them down to .22mH. Would I be better off using the silver Goertz on the tweeters and Dueland copper on the mids or do you think Dueland copper throughout would be the better way to go? I've been looking for a home for those Goertz!
How 'bout internal hook-up wire? Basically, from tweeters and mids to external crossover, approx. 23" x 4 for each satellite; total 184". I've been using multi strand silver from Purist Audio and once again, don't hear any problems.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
Regards, Bob |
Irish65
I am going to order a Duelund tweeter inductor. After reading your post on the tweeter inductor and the difference I have to see.
I am going to start with WPIO Duelund. I did not change the series tweeter inductor thinking how much difference can it make?
That has been one great thing about this thread what you often think does not matter does.
Only one question what about changing the DCR? I did not find the North Creek 10 guage woofer inductor to my liking. I am not sure how much was caused by the DCR change or it not being a wax paper inductor as the original was and the Duelund I ended up using.
Have you compared WPIO and CAST as tweeter inductors? |
Bob,
If a .665mH inductor works best then I would get that value. You mentioned Alpha Core being able to manufacture that specific value. Duelund will also be able to.
Even if your xovers are external you still are going to have mechanical vibration. Electric current passing thru caps/inductors/resistors will create some degree of this. Taking your xovers out of a speaker cabinet is no doubt a better way to go than internal. However, you will, to a lesser degree, have mechanical vibration.
Is all copper created equal if you are using alloy 101 or 99.99 copper? Most of the copper I have used in audio is not soft annealed. If it isn't then it will act more like an antenna and produce microphonics more than soft annealed.
Secondly the geometry of the copper is as important as the quality of the copper itself. With Duelund using soft annealed copper and the geometry being foil maybe this is what makes them a cut above other caps I have tried.
The same applies to silver. Try a copper inductor against the silver. Only you can decide what is best. If I was a betting man I know what horse I would lay my money down on.
Regarding the wiring I will leave that question alone. But will say it does pay great dividends to use a high quality wire for inside the cabinets and the xovers themselves. |
Volleyguy,
I am not sure what gauge inductor you currently use but the Duelunds are 12 awg. So the DCR should be close to what you are using if it is a 14-12 awg inductor.
I have not compared the WPIO inductors to the Cast. I have compared numerous VSF caps to Cast. From my experience the inductor is the most critical. Once you hear the noise other inductors introduce compared to the Cast it makes it easier to reach for the checkbook.
I would like to hear from any other member who has experience with the Duelund Cast inductors. It can be silver or copper. |
I am ordering just one WPIO. That way if it is not good DCR wise then a CAST would not help either same 12 guage. If it is a huge improvement then hmmmmm? Maybe a CAST? I have a friend with a set of Khorns who would take any of my used Duelund parts.
My current tweeter inductor is a high guage. I would guess more like around 30?
My guess is the Duelund again being foil will sound better.
I have heard much talk about North Creek inductors and they are wire wound. I found them not to be in the same league at all. (woofer inductor) I have a 2.5mh 10 guage if anyone is interested?
I for sure do not doubt you Irish. I could not believe how much high freq noise was coming out of my woofer before the Duelund WPIO went in.
Irish how much Duelund Silver wire do you have for sale? (and why?) |
Volleyguy,
Please keep us posted with your progress regarding the inductors.
The Duelund silver wire I am selling is left over from all the projects I was doing. When I bought it I purchased 50 meters. I have used around 35 meters of it and have done three pairs of speakers and crossovers, and some internal wiring for electronics. I am keeping some in reserve for any future projects but decided to sell some here.
If you are asking if I like the silver wire then my response is most definitely. I just bought more than I need.
Also I will be selling some of the numerous crossover parts I have. Caps/inductors/resistors. I have enough to compete with Parts Connexion :-) |
All this DCR stuff I feel is very critical especially in highly damped speaker enclosures with a Q of between .5 an .7...It has been my experience that when you lower the DCR by changing inductor wire guage you also lower the Q of the speaker system. So someone purchased a North Creek 8 guage inductor and it did not sound as good in their speaker system as a foil type. The difference they were probably hearing was the retuning of the bass with the influence of the much lower DCR on the bass and not the actual material or geometric difference in wire or winding methods. There is a definite influence of all things mentioned but the major personality change in the speaker is the retuning of the bass mostly by the reduction of DCR. On my current speaker system there is a external method that allows for the listener to adjust via hex head the tuning of the bass. Variation of DCR values and inductor Q values can be recompensated for within the speaker system I have. Lower DCR values would I think change the time alignment compensation of a speaker so designed. Tom |
Irish65
How much Duelund Silver 2.0 do you have? Is it generation 1 or 2?
I have partsconnexion contacting Duelund now on the inductor. I am curious of the Q.
I know the DCR is going to be much less with Duelund.
My current one is .37DCR. Just not sure what this means, sound wise?
http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/47.aspx
This thread talks about the various parts in the same network. North Creek actually had the lowest Q. I found them to be noisy so can not argue with this thread.
In fact it says what I have said many times the original parts used decades ago like the wax paper inductors (foil capacitors) were not that bad. Consistently it has been Duelund (and sometimes Jensen) that has bettered the vintage parts but this makes more sense than one would think. Similiar construction but to tighter tolerances.
I am going to have to go back and read my inductor tests. I know when I got the Duelund WPIO woofer inductor in 10 seconds I knew it was a keeper. (wished I got the CAST at the time) |
Tom
I am not sure as to why I liked the Duelund over the North Creek in the woofer inductor. (foil vs. wire or resonant reasons or silk and wax paper) The Duelund by the way was VERY close to the original that was Iron core in DCR. (wax paper) So the speaker did not change character.
Now going to the tweeter inductor I am going to get a lower DCR with the Duelund. Simply a much bigger guage of wire.
I am not to sure though how the North Creek deals with resonant vibrations? (electronic) I know it is not vibration for mechanical reasons as it weighs a ton!
As much as I have said many times about really liking Duelund products there is one I did not care for and that was there old solid copper hook up wire. (no longer in production)
Tempo Electric posted here a long time ago that they did not care for the old Duelund wire wound inductor? So it does lead me to believe there is something with foil??? |
Sorry mine is a parallel inductor.
That is why I did not change it months ago. Just having a brain fart!
I am still curious as to what the effect will be? or just a waste of money? I think not a waste as Klipsch even then took steps in the inductor to reduce resonance. (wax paper) |
Irish65,
I understand what you're saying about the "current passing thru caps/inductors" causing some "vibration" though who knows how much it really comes into play with an external x-over? As for "soft annealed" copper, hey, what do I know? If it improves the sound, I'm for it!
Regardless, the Dueland Cast inductors interest me and I'd like to hear them in an all Dueland Cast x-over. As mentioned, with one cap and two coils in series, everything matters and I'm inclined to go all out on this one. going all out I'm surprised too though, that you think the coils make more of a sonic difference than the caps. I would've thought the reverse.
|
Sorry the way my previous thread ended. I meant to hit "Preview first" but mistakenly hit "Submit". Hate when that happens!
You don't have to convince me of the sonic merits of silver but the price of admission is a bit steep with Dueland. Heck I thought Siltech was expensive til I looked at Dueland's pricing!
Finally, I generally prefer 12AWG inductors that will naturally give you lower DCR than 14/16AWG alternatives but 8AWG seems a bit much. I don't use resistors on my tweeters so a good quality 12AWG coil seems to strike the right balance between protection and sonics; ditto for my midrange. |
Rfogel8,
I thought the same thing about caps compared to inductors. However, in some cases the inductor provides the larger sonic gain. If you decide to use a Cast inductor you will know what I am talking about. The noise is eliminated or at least not audible. So my comment about inductors pertains to the Cast. Using another brand of inductors I have found that the caps bring more to the table.
But then again what do I know :-) |
Irish65,
Thanks again for your comments. If I pursue the Dueland inductors, they will most definitely be Cast.
Regards! |
Gentlemen,
Would a steel or aluminum enclosure be a bad idea for the crossover?
Also, I think I'll be able to keep the crossover about a foot away from my monoblocks. Inside the crossover I'll certainly orient the inductors so that they don't interfere with each other, so while I'm at it I suppose it would be a good idea to orient them so that their magnetic field isn't pointed at the amplifiers too.
As always, I appreciate your thoughts,
John |
Regarding my last questions, nevermind. I found the answer regarding the enclosure - definitely not a good idea! And I think I'll be okay with the placement relative to my amplifiers. |
John
Look for materials of music in wood or metal. MDF is dust and glue so I wouldn't go there. How can that have a pleasant sound. Any chassis that you choose I would terminate with a hard material such as brass or bronze to the floor so vibration has a place to exit as fast and as coherent as possible. Tom |
Tom,
Thanks for your reply. Below are a couple of the comments I found on another forum that had me thinking that I should stick with a wooden enclosure:
"...I think you are right about the enclosure. It is a Faraday box. Any magnetic fields inside that box tends to get squashed if they are not static."
"An aluminium box will lower the inductance of the coils quite a lot, as would a brass box. A steel box would increase the inductance a lot. Either way you could also be having a faraday effect, or at least a compression of field lines, or even a coupling of 2 coils via the box."
I don't know if the above statements are correct or not, but they raised my concern. If a steel chassis is in fact benign related to the inductor's magnetic fields, then that would be one option I might explore.
Thanks again for your help,
John |
Okay
With the help of a friend who has a large quantity of test equipment I will request his brain to test the variance of inductance in the presence of these different materials. My thoughts of a chassis was the material that the crossover components were to be mounted on, not the top cover or sides.Whatever material is chosen as a base, it should be just that a material that is rigid and conductive of resonance and vibration. Select a material that is reactive and not a material that will store and hold energy such as MDF or any material that is suspended on rubber, plastic glass or any other parasite of musical nature. Whatever chassis you choose direct couple it to the floor. Tom |
Tom,
Wow! That is a generous offer, and thank you. However, I would hate to see you or your friend go to any trouble since I have not decided upon a metal enclosure but rather saw some when looking on the internet and was curious, although instinctively skeptical, about using them for the crossover chassis. I know some guys around town who are woodworkers and was thinking of having them make me a couple of enclosures out of black walnut. I would have them made out of solid wood and mount the crossover components on the base in the manner you suggested. I will use some spikes to couple the enclosures to the floor through the carpet also as you suggested.
Thanks again for your help,
John |
