Hi Reynolds853 was you using the mundorf s/g/o in your
Silverline SR17.5 , or was it in another pair of speakers ??
/Michael |
Michaelvv,
The s/g/o caps were indeed used in the Silverline SR17.5 speakers.
John |
hi Reynolds853
The Mundorf s/g/o i have used in my HPD-385a Tannoy is only
replacing the 1.5uF in the signal path.
I have just ordered a pair of claritycaps 4.7uF for the other caps in the signal path.
Tannoys are a little laid back , so using the Mundorf does not tilt the sound to the too much high frequencies.
I'm having only Tube Amps so my setup is not aggressive at
all.
/Michael
|
This is a very interesting thread.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1308149563&read&keyw&zzmarantz
This is basically what started this thread. After having my new gear blown away so clearly by vintage this thread started on the why, not whether it was but simply to figure out why?
I would have bought a Marantz vintage pre and amp but you do not go and change parts in a valuable vintage piece. So I used pedestrian Fisher amps to test.
I have not heard a Marantz but have no doubt they sound fantastic. Look at the size of the coupling caps. Marantz 9
http://pic8.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/image?ampstube&1312686115&pic&class&i/c/f/1273441533.jpg&Marantz-Model--9-(Original)
They are MUCH bigger than the ones Fisher used at the time the Vishay ERO caps. Marantz at least was aware of this affect even then. So was Fisher as the better models would have more bigger caps. (physical size)
When changing to the Jensen Copper Paper tube they were MUCH more dynamic (and wayyyy bigger) then the original. The VSF even better.
One thing of this thread was you just do not go throw in new coupling caps and be better than the original vintage ones easy. By the looks of the size of the Marantz coupling caps one better be ready to spend $$$ to replace them as with as good.... |
Hi VolleyGuy
Have you tried the VSF as decoupling Caps in some of your vintage Fisher
Amps ?? I have heard from a company here in Denmark who have done
a lots of upgrade on existent pre-amp. The said that a lot of people who have
bought quite expensive tube pre-amps was shocked about the difference in
sound quality.
|
For sure Micheal.
I have VSF in the Fisher. Big difference and that is from Jensen Copper Paper Tube which was even a bigger difference from vintage.
I am looking into going all VSF and CAST for the entire signal chain.
The only spot I have not tried VSF is the pre-amp section and the phone section. |
Hi VolleyGuy. Yesterday I replaced the 2.0 uF caps in my friends la Scale like yours. He's not on the same budget so i have choosed the ClarityCaps MR.
After installing the CAPS the noice level from the orig caps was gone. He need to do a lot of burn in time but it was amazing. He asked me for doing the same for the 13UF , but according to you , it would require very expensive caps from for instance duelund. I think i had read that even VSF would not be a big upgrade. You have not tried any other PIO as for instance ampohm etc.
/Best Michael |
I would not say Duelund was not a big upgrade but the most cost effective is the tweeter cap because of the noise of the original foil caps. If his are the can type foil in oil? Every cap will change the sound but improvement? The woofer inductor change was bigger for the $ than mid range caps. Also internal wire to Duelund is big change but not cheap if Silver.
The next cheapest is to re-wire the woofer in Duelund copper if they still sell it. klipsch put a screw in the signal path! |
Hi VolleyGuy.-
I would like to see a picture of your klipsch crossover , so i can show it
to my friend. After i have told him about this thread and in special your tweaks
he began to realize the value of this LaScala again.
How big is the induction in the bass uH , and where is it located ???
/Michael |
As I know a lot of our clients follow this thread. I wanted to inform, that the worst rain in DK for the past 30 years, have rendered half our production covered in water, our mail and website are down as well.
I've posted a status with pictures and video on our facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Duelund-Coherent-Audio/209346612428600.
At the moment we are looking at a production stop of up to one week. |
hm, link seems to be broken by audiogon.
Try this: http://tinyurl.com/6hp6vcg |
Switched amps to double check the Silver Wire after some good criticism over testing methods. Will give a few days to see. This is an almost stock vintage EL84 just power supply switched to Jensen Electrolytic. Both signals identical except speaker wire.
I just hope I was not too harsh on the Jensen Electrolytic? It sounds fine now? There is something about tube based power supply sounding more natural in the timing. I really like El84's just weak and wimpy vintage coupling caps but with decent tone. |
Hi just finish evaluating the V-CAP TFTF in my tube pre-amp. This is the
best sounding cap i have tried so far. I'm done with Mundorf. I have tried
all their caps so far but the v-cap is way way better.
I have the new cuTF on a order 0.1 uF in about a month form now. Need a little money that's why the delay. And hopefully a DUELUND cast 1.5 uF to my crossover , when they have the production up running again , but i can wait. |
Hmmmm Michael.
Which Mundorf did you prefer?
I have always wanted to try some VCaps. If I remember correct in small values they were much more cost effective? (compared to Duelund)
Keep us paired on those copper Teflons. |
Before rebuilding your current crossovers, I would look into building or buying a Klappenberger crossover. His website is http://www.alkeng.com/
I upgraded my crossovers that you can change the attenuation of the mid horn to match your room, taste, equipment, etc. Very customizable! |
Utahusker
I have stuck to PWK original designs. I have used Sonicaps (and sold) a long time ago and they were bested by a long shot (to me) by Mundorf Supreme's in dynamics.
The Duelund VSF's are in another complete league.
There is only one cap that I have not tried that I am curious over and that is the VCap Copper Teflon.
I have been listening to the all vintage amp (just Jensen power supply cap) to compare to the Duelund Silver wire and I am not sure if I will be able too. The sound is MILES off. The image is blurry, distorted and splashy. It might be to poor of an amp to make this comparison?
In my testing I bought several amps all from the same company all vintage point to point so for easy swaps. I started with my least favourite the Fisher 500c and switched out coupling caps. I knew that if I messed up the sound it was my least favourite anyway. I left all orginal (till power supply cap) my favourite the EL84 Fisher.
The 500c is MILES better with new caps. |
VolleyGuy The Mundorf caps in pre-amps 0.1 uF was great s/o s/g s/g/o but as i wrote the V-CAP is way way better.
I'm placing an order on the V-CAP cuTF for my pre-amp and
my mono-blocks 6c33 in this week , heard that it should be even better than the TFTF.
So within a couple of weeks the first impression would be possible.
/Michael |
Micheal does the VCap Copper have any of the coolness of the regular VCaps?
I have not heard either. I know the regular VCaps were thought be double edge sword?
That is pretty stiff competition to be "way way" better than.
I just might have to hear for myself. |
Just ordered some VCap Copper Teflons for the phono or pre-amp stage.
If they do not work out it is only CAST or VSF left.
I have a gut feeling the VCap Coppers will work in the phono stage. Seem to agree with Tempo's opinion often, could be that we are running similiar style speakers and most people do hear the same things.
To me the phono stage is slow in my amps. The Jensen's were a LARGE improvement there and caps that I like and will keep for sure even if in a second system. Duelund is expensive in high voltage and small values. If the VCaps do not work out it will be VSF's for the rest of the system. (or CAST ouch)
I am getting very close to done though either way, without going crazy with Duelund CAST Silver. (not happening) Power supply work maybe?
It has been a very interesting journey in which I have learned lots from so many people.
One thing I could not agree with more was Dgarretson's opinion of not spending too much on one part, if there is weakness elsewhere. Like having Silver wire hooked up to an all vintage amp with tired coupling caps. Silver wire is $500++ that is enough for good quality coupling caps and wayyyy better money spent and for sure if it is a wear item. 2 Jensen's on the phono stage is 10x the difference of Silver if the phono or pre-amp caps are lousy.
This is one area where the internet is excellent. In the past none of us would be able to share opinions in a small hobby and an obscure part of it. (passive parts)
With the internet it is becoming accepted knowledge that these parts DO matter and a lot. |
Volleyguy we have had a listen session here where i live this evening. One of my friends is super critical and he was very
impressed though he thought my mundorf s/g/o in my crossover was the real reason why my sound was tilted a little to the light.
I have just order the V-cap cuTF for my pre-amp but for sure you will have them before me , but i'm convinced that they will make me very satisfied.
My Idea is to have them in my preamp plus mono blocks and then a duelund in my crossover + a clarity caps for the cost reason.
/michael |
I have to admit every time I put in a Duelund part it just gets better. So far I can not hear ANY negative or signature to their parts which both Mundorf and at least the old VCaps had. (so I hear on the VCaps)
The problem is CAST does not drop in price in small values. (I know hand made) |
I think my statement "way way better" was that the old V-CAP TFTF , just make me enjoy music a lot more than mundorf.
I have not heard the duelund as you have , but i can live with this kind of "coolness" , but we need to check out the CuTF.
I think you will have them before they reach denmark , i placed an order for 12 hours ago , but still need the final confirmation.
I ordered them from partsconnection. |
FWIW, Jon L's 'Orgy of Capacitors' now has a review of the ClarityCap MRs -- new since the last time I read his thread. |
Micheal
I live less than 100k from Partsconnexion and they are already here! (quicker than normal)
I am going to try and install them right away. They are much smaller in size (but heavy) than the Jensen or Duelund. If someone does not have much space this could be helpful.
I am thinking in the (almost) untouched vintage amp. I started with vintage tube amp and SS for testing in the crossover but at some point there was no need to keep hearing the SS as it was not even close. That is how I feel now about vintage capped amp as a reference. |
Volleyguy i have got a pdf kind of confirmation mail from partsconnextion. Is it normal that they would send i after this email. Can not see any freight rate so i'm a little concerned , that it's on hold.
I have send a mail to them but i haven't got an answer.
Just curious , are you canadian partsconnextion i based in canada or do i miss something ???
Very interested in your review. How is it going with your pictures of your setup :-)
Would like to see very much...
/Michael |
Micheal
Yes I am Canadian and they are based in Canada. I think you do get a PDF then a bill with shipping once that happens. Almost all of the parts I have got oddly have come from Denmark (Duelund and Jensen) and I have almost always had to wait.
I just took the pics of one of the amps. It has all Jensen and Duelund caps and put a pic of the not yet installed VCap Cuft. I also took pics of inside the speakers but not really much to look at just a bunch of Duelund parts. Once I figure out how to post I will.
I do hear very good things about the VCaps and for sure the Cuft ones. I hear they are in VSF range. This I have got to hear as you have noticed even good parts like Mundorf have a signature, Duelund is the only one I have heard that do not?
In the one amp I thought was all original did have one Ampohm Copper foil cap in it. There is very little difference from vintage and to be honest I actually thought the vintage channel sounded better. I can not understand why living in Denmark you just don't pop over to the guys at Duelund? |
Volleyguy i do not own a car ha ha ha. But i live about 210 km from DueLund.
My parts from canada is on it's way to Denmark. USA right now.
Canada buys from Denmark Dueland Stuff.
Denmark buys from Canada V-Cap Stuff.
If you have the pics out you are more than welcome to send then to my
extra email - michaelvvv@gmail.com.
Look foreward to hear your opinion about v-caps... |
I spent an hour+ trying to post the pics and save a system but no luck? |
Volleyguy if you send me the pics to my email , i can put your pictures on my blog http://hifimaniac.blogspot.com/ .
Just send them to michaelvvv@gmail.com .
/Michael |
Micheal I have some pics up now. |
Sorry I did not mean to put the pics up as another thread?
Spent another afternoon at another high end store. I try and go as often as I can. As much to hear can I just buy off the shelve gear and be better off?
The speakers were Martin Logan's and Totems? ($14k I think) The Martin Logan's are interesting but as a hybrid the woofer sounds like a sub not connected to the system, to me. The spatial sound is interesting but without hearing them I think I would prefer all panels even at some bass extension?
The Martin Logan's had a $5k Dynavector on the table all expensive cabling etc.
There is NO doubt in my mind what I would do again. I would cut to a $500 cartridge like I have and use that $4,500 on caps.
All the speakers I have heard all sound black and white. There is just no contest to how mine sound in comparison. It was there the very first time I heard it. The vintage tube amp with all foil caps through my speaker with all foil caps and my eyes were like pie plates! I owned these speakers for 28 years at the time at it was the first time I "heard" them.
I have found it tough at times to focus with all the Duelund parts you get listening to just one instrument for tones.
There is one area where things are not even close. |
I have the VCap installed in the phono stage. Can't say anything yet except they are fast.
What I like hearing about other systems in what weakness does it reveal in your own? Well the Martin Logans have way deeper bass. With speakers cut off at 55 or so hz Lascala's do not go that deep.
The frustrating thing in audio is dealing with the trade-offs. |
Volleyguy i have seen your pictures and enjoyed them at lot. Tomorrow i will get the cuFT they will be installed asap.
I will do it in three different stereo setup including my friends Klipsch like yours.
/Michael |
Volleyguy , yesterday i have installed V-Cap CuFT in three pre-amps so now
we are some persons who are "suffering" the breakin time.
Honest to say , they are quite good from the first second. I was listening to my
friends LaScala and after some smaller upgrades compared to yours , i think this speaker is way way underrated. He had suffered from the very high unpleasant top , caused by poor quality of caps , mainly in this tube-amps.
But we need to go through the breakin time before we can say anymore.
/Michael |
a few years back I replaced the 3,3 uF mundorf silver/gold in my omega duos tweeter xo with the v-caps. this is one of the best upgrades I ever did and literally transformed my speakers. chris put them on the cable cooker for 4 days before sending them to me. still it took them another few hundred hours to fully blossom. be patient and you will be rewarded!
mundorf caps are good for the money and they don't even come close to the v-caps. |
Micheal
Not sure if you have heard of Arthur Salvatore? He has the Khorns rated Class C were Class B in a VERY tough list. The highest of all vintage speakers. He has not heard a full out set only the stock set with cheap wire and caps. I did invite him to hear mine, but better here in a few months when the room is done. I am curious were a full out set would rank? I can say it is a BIG difference from stock. (Duelund caps and wires)
I agree with you on the harshness on the top end for stock speakers. (midrange as well)
I really like the basic design of the Khorn woofer though. It is sooooooo fast. |
Doumike
I was expecting the VCaps Cuft to be rough at first as well from what I have read about VCaps. They are not terrible out of the box. Teflon without a doubt is fast! I have the second speaker to be hooked with Duelund Silver wire (next week or two) and will need to get too just one part difference to really say. So far faster but maybe more stark?
Teflon seems to charge and discharge with lightning speed. |
We have had a listening session , with a pair of upgraded tube amps with V-CAP cuFT.
The pre-Amp had played for 70 hours and the MONO 6c33 blocks has been playing for 12 hours. As volleyguy has stated , these
caps are fast , and they play bass with an author never heard before. Yes they need more break-in time but compared to ANY mundorf this is like reaching another level.
I never get tired of listening it's like it just tell me. Play another record i would not disappoint you :-) |
Volleyguy i think you have mentioned Arthur Salvatore in one of your post i have read. I have upgraded my friend with the LaScala pre-amp with the V-CAP CuFT , and It was a huge improvement over his Mundorf s/g/o. The V-CAP CuFT is capable of playing bass with an intensity i have never heard before.
Do not know about the DueLund VSF , but you might be the expert on these caps.
I will have mine mono 6c33 SET upgraded and rebuild within 6 weeks so after a lot of break-in time i'll be ready to enjoy them later this year. |
I am unsure about being the expert but VSF's are fantastic! I have the other section of Duelund Silver Wire coming from Irish65 and will complete after lengthy break in. Irish might be the expert with having CAST Silver caps and inductors. |
Hi Volleyguy which inductor should i change , i got new 2.5 mH vax coil yesterday. Imagine this layout below as the Klipsch AA crossover.
I - for inductor , C - for Caps
Ia 2uF_C 2uF_C 13uF_C
Ib [Input from Amp] Ic
Taken from http://www.critesspeakers.com/crossover_repair_kits.html
is it Ia , Ib or Ic , hope it gives a meaning.
Best Michael |
Sorry Micheal confused?
I would change the woofer inductor 2.5mh to a Duelund VSF or CAST. I would not change the tweeter inductor .0245mh.
Although Duelund is an excellent part changing the DCR (ohm resistance) is not always a good idea.
Duelund's inductor (air core) is almost the same DCR as vintage iron core. I wish I had the money for CAST inductors.
I could not believe how much less noise the woofer made after the change.
The parts that they make 200k from where you live Micheal are almost slam dunk the way to go. As long as you do not change the DCR they are VERY tough for anything to beat.
I am not saying I like the Teflon better yet either just you can hear the effects of Teflon, I just do not know what it fully means. |
Hi Volleyguf , just want to know where is it located the 2.5 mh on the original crossover type AA. Just to be sure i change the correct one.
Teflon takes time to break-in , yesterday listening to my friends pre-amp + monos also 6c33 , they now have 75+ hours and 130 hours on the preamp.
A lot better now , but needs more time. |
Volleyguy,
"Teflon seems to charge and discharge with lightning speed. "
Main problem with it. |
Duelund
Have your heard the V-Cap CuFT after a valid break-in time , properly 400+ hours.
We are 3 different persons here in Denmark who are doing it right now , not 400+ hours yet.
I would like to use your caps for my tannoy HPD-385a , but at the time i have saved up , your prices are properly raised again. Funny when i asked rabu-acoustics.dk they can not give me an exact price. What is the reason for that ???
|
You're right about the price Michael. Since receiving some rave reviews, including on this site, prices have raised to incredible heights. A pity as the Duelunds no doubt are fine caps but IMO and IME the extra quality compared to that of other fine PIO copperfoil caps (and OTHER measures than caps, inductors and wire that can be taken in an audiosystem!!!) doesn't justify the very big difference in retailprice.
I don't know the Cu V-cap, however I've tested the tinfoil V-caps a few years ago and IMO they didn't held up with the standard Jensen PIO copperfoil cap. The difference was big. The tinfoils are fast and detailed but compared to the PIO copperfoils they sound "thin" / less musical. And this judgement came after at least 500 hours of playing in time.
I collected three early cost-no-object early Siltech hybrid poweramps that I've upgraded by a Dutch engineer called Peter van Willenswaard. He used to work for AudioNote UK and now has his own company Audiomagic. Peter is a BIG name with tubes in the Netherlands/Europe. His DAC for instance is a killer. Peter built up a lot of experience with upgrading AN DACs. So much that he decided to design his own DAC. This DAC, though costing about 1/20th of the most expensive AN DAC, performs in the same league as that AN DAC. No wonder it won the first price at a shoot out of the European Triode Festival some years ago.
I have asked Peter to test the tinfoil teflon V-Caps and the Cast Cu-foil Duelunds as I wanted to replace the old coupling caps in my hybrid poweramps by better ones, and these two companies received rave reviews a couple of years ago. A befriended audiocompany in the Netherlands ordered the Cast Cu-foil Duelunds from Frederik as the company was very interested in Peters opinion on the Duelund caps. The V Caps I ordered in the USA.
Peter put them to test in his own design preamp (position of the caps: coupling caps) and audiosystem. The judgement about the V-caps was quickly made. And even after 500 hours, its sound was still not okay in our experience. This became very painfully clear after replacing the V Caps by Jensen Cu-foils: the immediate improvement of the sound with the Jensens installed was SO big!
The Jensens went out and the Cast Duelunds were connected. A long time of playing in followed. Gradually, very gradually its sound got better and better until it performed a bit better than the standard Jensen PIO Copperfoil caps. After a few hundred hours the Duelunds were taken out and returned to the audiocompany...
They made place for the Jensen PIO Cu-foils in paper tube. The paper tube Jensens sounded already from the start significantly better (more detailed) than the standard Jensen PIO Cu foils... So my choice in the end was the paper tube Jensen.
I must admit that my Cast Duelunds belonged to the first badges produced by Duelund as in my first emails to Duelund, Frederik responded that the high voltage Cast caps didn't exist yet, but that they were working on it. Maybe in the later badges other dimensions/design and materials were used?
I'm very curious to your experiences with the Cufoil V-cap, especially how it performs compaired to its tinfoil sister or brother.
Kees |
Hi Kees , thanks for a great update on the caps magic. What do you think on this review http://jimmyauw.com/2010/08/16/battle-of-three-capacitors/ . I think in his opinion the duelund CAST is a lot better than the jensen you have testet. |
K2 Thank You!
I have stated many times in this thread that the Jensen Copper Paper Tube is very good! It is what I use as a standard reference. They seem unloved? (old news?) No one seems to care about them? People run out to buy other lesser caps?
I have tested Jensen against the VSF and like the VSF better the difference would depend on the system as to whether it is worth it? The VSF is clearly less muffled with better tonality. An excellent cap and the Jensen Copper Paper tube very good.
Another thing I have mentioned is how one cap in the chain throws things off. The first time I heard an all foil chain (all vintage) I went Holy Smokes! Real sounds! (high noise level but still REAL sounds)
Right now I have a VCap Cuft with two Duelund's in one side in the amp and all Jensen Copper Paper Tube in the other. The all Jensen sounds more dynamic than the VCap followed by two Duelund VSF's
The ENTIRE chain is Duelund except one VCap and it matters natural tones are not as good by changing out just ONE cap.
Where the Duelunds are better is in tonality, clarity then Jensens.
But they sound like the same family of caps.
I can not comment for sure on the VCaps as I am nowhere near the painful long 500 hours! One thing I love about good paper in oil caps is put them in today and things are better right away and then they improve.
That "thin" sound you talk about seems to come from the fast charge and discharge of Teflon. It is a more mechanical sound.
I have mentioned on here before that you can not have ANY poly or other types of caps to get the "full" effect of paper in oil. (some scoff at the idea) I had never heard full signal paper in oil till hearing all vintage. That is what started the thread.
So far my thoughts are Duelund in large value and Jensen in small value just for cost reasons.
I feel (and have said before) Jensen Copper Paper tube is the "lowest" (if one calls that low) I would want to see in the signal path. |
Michael,
" Funny when i asked rabu-acoustics.dk they can not give me an exact price. What is the reason for that ???"
I don't know, they could certainly have got a quote from us? |
Duelund's Do NOT mix well with other caps I have found, Crossover, or electrical. Its better to run them all or nothing.
I found however Clarity MR's do mix well with almost anything accept DUELUNDS following them. The Duelunds Stand alone and are hard to beat, but mixing with other caps they are not worth the price of admission unless you go 100% as another poster FACE has agreed with in the past, as well as now it seems Volleyguy is coming to this conclusion as well finally. |
