Granny,
If the Clarity TC caps are too big then try the MUNDORF M-Lytic HV+ Series MLGO+ (Glue-On + 500V & 550V) 4-Pole Electrolytic Capacitors.
Parts Connexion has them. |
I"ve had no problems with the Duelund 2.0 silver wire. I used a razor and cut around the outside silk jacket. Once this is done I pulled it off which reveals the silver annealed wire. The silver will have an orange look to it from the oil which must be cleaned before you solder. I use a Dremel tool with a brass brush on it. This gets the oil residue off and polishes the wire at the same time.
I cut a piece cotton to put over the bare wire and keep this in place with a non static shrink wrap. Remember no plastic.
This has worked great for me.
When using the Duelund components throughout the crossover the Duelund wire makes more sense.
I've used their VSF Cu caps, Cast CU caps, Cast Ag caps, Cast inductors, and the Duelund resistors and like the Duelund wire mated with them. Of course this is my opinion but if the wire is made in the same fashion as the crossover components then why not use it? |
Volleyguy,
I will say this. If you purchased the North Creek inductors you will not feel that you are missing anything. The 8 awg are fairly large inductors. Compared to the other brands of inductors I have already mentioned the North Creek's dwarf the others. The Duelund's are about the same size (Cast).
It is funny how some say they make a difference and others who say they do not. That is what led me on this journey I took. I wanted to know for myself. I purchased numerous caps and inductors and listened for myself. The upside is now I know what works best for me. The downside is I spent a significant amount of money to determine this. |
Volleyguy,
I use the 2.0 silver wire. Some silver wire that I have used the bass seems to go south for the winter. With the Duelund wire (silver) I did not have this problem. The best way to describe it is to say everything just sounded right.
Meaning it has an organic and naturalness to it that is additive.
If the cost is an issue then I would suggest you start at the frequencies that your ears are most sensitive. My are the higher frequencies so if cost were a concern I would use the Duelund wire on the tweeter first. Other it may be the midrange.
I agree with your assessment of the VSf compared to the Cast. It really is a big difference but at double the price. The silver Cast is significantly more but to me it is worth it. The clarity is like nothing I ever heard before. It seems to put flesh on the images if that makes sense to you.
My advice is do not listen to them if you do not plan to spend that kind of money. You will no doubt get bit and the only anti venom is to pony up the cash and purchase them. |
Volleyguy,
For me the additional cost was well worth the price of admission going to the Cast Silver capacitors. I tried the VSF first a few years ago then compared them to the Cast copper, then took the jump to the Cast Silver. Absolutely no regrets.
I did not compare the Duelund CU wire to the Duelund 2.0 Ag wire. I just know what I like and the Duelund 2.0 scratched the itch I had.
I do use the Duelund 2.0 for speaker wiring also. It is the same wire as the hook up wire.
If you are looking to have the Duelund speaker wire to tilt your system to your liking it will not do that. It is a cable that just gets out of the way which to me is what a speaker cable is suppose to do. Get everything else right in your system first then put in the Duelund wire.
I have spent a significant amount of money playing around with different caps in the crossover. For me going entirely Duelund works best.
I really like the North Creek inductors (8 awg) but have found the Duelund to reveal more info in the lower frequencies than the North Creek. The North Creek inductors are my second choice.
I am working on modding my source. I will be comparing Duelund caps (630v) to Clarity MR, V- caps, Mundorf Silver/gold, and Modwright teflon caps. I have had the other caps on hand for a few months and need to make time to get that project started. |
Volleyguy,
The North Creek inductors I like very much. I like them best on the bottom end because they reveal more info than other inductors. This includes Mundorf, Solen, and Alpha-core. You will not be dissapointed with them.
The North Creek inductors do have a low DCR but so do the Duelunds. I do not know what it is but I have compared the North Creek to the Duelunds and prefer the Duelunds. I use the Cast inductors not their WPIO.
The difference between the North Creek and Duelund is like going from a VSF cap to a Cast cap.
If you were to use both because of cost use the North Creek for thr bottom end (larger inductor with lower cost compared to Duelund) and use Duelund for the smaller values. |
Volleyguy,
Talk to George @ North Creek. Numerous loudspeaker companies hire him as a consultant for their crossovers. He will provide you a wealth of info. I have used the North Creek inductors (8 awg) on a few application and there was never a downside. In fact it always improved the crossover with them in.
I was hearing the same things as you so I bought numerous inductors and conducted my own test.
Get the 8 awg North Creek inductors if funds do not permit the Duelund Cast. Or get them both and decide for yourself. |
Volleyguy,
I could throw out numerous adjectives as to how the North Creek inductors compare to the Duelund Cast. But in the end what will that accomplish? From your own tests with comparing Duelund caps with others this has provided you with an education and a definitive upgrade path.
This same course of action with the inductors will yield the same results. I will say inductors are worth the money spent testing them.
I will add this about the Duelund's. They have a consistent sonic signature throughout their product line. Very natural and organic. For me it is worth every penny of the price of admission.
The Duelund Cast inductors compared to the North Creek is like going from a VSF to a Cast only larger.
Get both and sell the loser here. If it is a common value you will not lose money and to top it of you improved your system and added an education in for free.
Someday I am going to try a silver Cast inductor and compare it to the copper.
From my experience the crossover is the heart of the system and a well designed crossover with high quality parts is the way to go. I make people laugh on how much I have spent on crossover parts. But in the end I laugh because they spend more on a power cord for their system then what their crossover is worth. Do not get me wrong a power cord will benefit a system. However, if funds were an issue I would not hesitate to use a stock power and put my money on the crossover. |
Volleyguy,
Glad you took the plunge with the Duelund inductors. As you know I have used North Creek 8 AWG inductors and feel they work best on the bass.
I use all Cast Duelund products in my crossover.
So just when I think I am done Frederik @ Duelund ups the ante and has developed a Cast version of their Silver graphite resistors. I placed my order and will report back when I receive them. I will be comparing them to the current Duelund resistors.
Maybe Frederik will jump in and comment on the differnce between the two resistors. |
I received my new Cast resistors and will report back when I put them in the crossover. |
Volleyguy,
The Duelund's that were never used was because I made some changes to the crossover. I used less expensive parts to do this so when I ordered the Duelunds I thought I had the correct values. I am building this from scratch.
I settled on a 30uf Cast instead of the 20uf I am selling. The 15uf VSF cap I replaced it with two 6.8uf Cast in series. It is not a fair comparison with VSF to Cast but I tried the replacement with Clarity caps first and using two smaller caps in series provided more air and extension on top then one larger one.
Don't get me wrong it sounded very open and organic before I pushed the envelope for better sonics. As I said in my ad I am in pursuit of the most natural sounding speaker .
As with the various parts I have tried Mundorf, Clarity, North Creek and many others it was the Duelund's that have made a permanent home.
With the Duelund Cast in the crossover it amazes me how little volume I need because they lower the noise floor considerably. |
Correction.
I put two 6.8 paralleled not in series.
Thanks Face. |
Volleyguy,
After removing the silk from the Duelund wire you need to remove the oil and residue on the wire. I use a Dremel tool with a brass wire brush. I lightly touch the surface of the cable and remove slowly. I then use a buffing bit to smooth out and polish the cable.
I tin the wire with WBT solder and I am in business.
Hope this helps. |
Volleyguy,
This will depend on your listening preference and your drivers. I use it throughout the crossover, internal speaker wiring, and speaker cables for all the drivers.
Sherod,
I can send you a photo of the wire if you email me. I have some extra lying around. |
Tom,
I wouldn't use any wire in a vibrating speaker cabinet without addressing that issue. The wire, as you know, will act as a mechanical antenna.
The trick is dealing with this unwanted vibration without over-dampening the Duelund cable and lose it's natural harmonics and organic nature. |
Tom,
Using the Duelund wire in an external crossover would eliminate that. As far as using inside the speaker my feeling is Duelund left this to the end user to decide what was the best method.
If they did a Cast version what would be the cost?
The hook-up wire is more like the VS Fcaps and regular resistors. They provide no vibration/resonace control, yet still manage to sound very good. |
Volleyguy,
Not being evasive at all. This was your question.
"Irish65 is there much difference in the Duelund line? Should one use Silver for the mids and highs or just the highs. Any advice?"
And my answer was.
"This will depend on your listening preference and your drivers. I use it throughout the crossover, internal speaker wiring, and speaker cables for all the drivers".
I cannot answer your question regarding the copper Duelund wire as I never compared it with the Silver. I did try other copper wire and for my taste I preferred the 2.0 silver ribbon.
I can give you many reasons why I chose the 2.0 silver ribbon but that is my opinion. You have tried the Duelund products and know everytime you went up the line the sonics were better. That being the case spend a few hundred bucks and try it for yourself and know with certainty what you like best.
Regarding resonance and your concerns with the 2.0 cable there are high dollar speakers using this cable with no problems. |
Volleyguy,
I did not take your comment as negative. I didn't realize what you were asking. I decided upon the silver Duelund because it preserved the sonic character of my Duelund crossover. I spent numerous hours and money choosing the Duelunds over others so my main goal was to make sure I did not tilt the sound away from what the Duelunds provided.
You owning the Duelund products no doubt understand the sonic character I refer to. So that was my main reason.
If I were you I would get enough 2.0 wire to make one run to your drivers farthest away from the crossovers. This will allow you to sample the 2.0 wire with each driver to see if you like it. I would start with the bass and work your way up the chain. |
Volleyguy,
You have come this far on your journey why not just try the silver on the bottom end. Then you will know for certain if you think it is an improvement or not. |
Volleyguy,
The smaller gauge Duelund silver wire .5 or 1.0 is better suited for IC. I preferred thd 2.0 for speakers and crossovers. I would give the 2.0 a try on the bottom end. For me it added more definition and punch. |
Volleyguy,
You may have mentioned it in one of your many posts but have you tried the Duelund silver wire on the bottom end yet? Where most would think copper wire would be the better choice for the LF I have found the Duelund silver wire more to my liking. |
Volleyguy,
I think you are onto something :-) This is where I started with the silver wire from Duelund. It did just what you stated . The bottom was clean and fast which for me made it easier to to evaluate the mids and highs. |
For the price of admission the Duelund resistors will not disappoint. |
Reynolds853 ,
Just a thought but if you are willing to invest the funds into upgrading your speakers why limit yourself to what can fit into your speaker?
Have an external Xover built to house your new filter and you can use the Cast. I have been down that road and have crossed over to the other side. The Cast are well worth the additional price.
And do not limit yourself to resistors and capacitors. The Duelund Cast inductors are a must have. As good as Duelund caps are, compared to other manufacturer's, their inductors widen the gap even further when compared to other inductors on the market.
You can email me if you want to discuss what I have tried. |
Reynolds,
Yes. Putting the VSF in an outboard xover eliminates the resonating cabinet and will close the gap some between them and their Cast big brother.
The cost between the Duelund resistors and the Cast version are worth the little extra you will pay for them. If there is a small value cap on the tweeter then it would be worthwhile to consider the Cast.
What are the values in the Bolero xover? |
Reynolds853,
Please keep me posted. Also I would like to hear your thoughts on the Cast resistors once you install them. |
Ait,
I was going to mention that also but the 3m product to use costs around 15.00-20.00 per tube. From my experience you would need around (5) tubes to do a 14 awg 1.2mH inductor properly. While your add it cut channels for the inductor wire to travel, in the botton of the xover box, and fill this channel with the potting compound. |
Correction of my last post. It should say" While your at it" not "While your add it". |
John,
That being your experience with the inductors I would suggest getting the inductors first. Leave the rest of the Xover as is just change out the inductors.
Let it settle in then evaluate them if they bring any improvement. If you like what they bring to the table then get the Clarity MR 4.7uF cap for the tweeter. I mention this first because this is where you mentioned in your post above that the tweeter with the Duelund cap was faster than the mids/bass because of the inductor.
Once you install them leave them for a few hundred hours and continue to evaluate what you are hearing. If you are happy with it then get the 15uF Clarity MR caps followed by the Cast resistors.
The benefits of this approach is you will gain a working knowledge of what each part in a Xover contributes to the overall sonics and what effect they have on each other. Also you won't put out the scratch for the costly 15uF Clarity MR caps prematurely. |
Reynolds853,
I saw from your post you have a 4.7mF cap on the tweeter and a 15mF on the midrange. What mH is your inductor?
I have played around with some of the products you mention. I understand the cost factor. However, getting your speakers to where you will not part with them anytime soon will save you money in the long run.
From my experience the inductor provides as much, if not more, sonic improvement than the caps and resistors. If you save and go with the Clarity MR caps (good value) over the VSF then you might consider using the Duelund Cast Inductor. Once you hear, or I should say don't, you will realize how noisy other inductors are in comparison. |
Ait,
You and I think alike in that regard but I don't think Reynolds853 wants to purchase 16 gallons of potting compound. |
John,
The potting compound I was referring to was the 3M DP270. So yes you mentioned the product that I have used. As I am sure you saw it is a relatively small tube so it will take a few to do the job.
I am sure Ait will be able to provide you a contact for the ABS but TDL Plastics has what you are looking for.
I have potted inductors and it does benefit the North Creek inductors as they do have some noise.
You may benefit more from some of the DIY sites as they have more info for what you are doing.
I will add, and this is not intended to offend, that when a project of this undertaking is in it's conceptual phase it is a mistake to say what brand of caps, resistor, and inductors you will use. Having a few caps by different manufacturer's, of the same value to evaluate, would be better than going in blind saying I am using this brand of cap.
Yes you solder it in and it may sound better but it only sounds better than the cheap cap that was already in there.
I understand you have a budget. However, it would be wise to do the xover in stages so you can get the best bang for your buck. If you want to try the the Clarity MR cap then compare it to a Mundorf Silver/oil. Keep the winner and sell the loser. This way your comparing caps that are more equal with each other than the extremes of going from a cheap cap to a very good cap. I also mention this because you stated your concern about the Clarity MR having a "slight focus on the lower treble". How do you know if you can live with this possibility long term? And if not how much will you have to spend later to try and fix it with cables or an amp?
In the end you want your system to cause you to go out and buy more music. |
Rfogel8,
The Mundorf Silver/Oil caps and Goertz 12AWG copper foil inductors are a very good combination. Unfortunately for you to take a step forward in sonics you will have to spend more.
The Cast Duelund cap you purchased will do it. You will know what the buzz is all about when you hear them.
I have built my own speakers, having access to a manufacturing facility, and have tried more caps and inductors than I care to mention. In the end I chose the Duelund Cast Silver for my Xover. I also use a Scan Speak for the mids.
If you have an inductor in series with the tweeter than I cannot recommend the Cast inductor enough. They are dead quiet, you will hear more ambient info, and they sound so natural.
Yes they are pricey. |
John,
Ait gives good advice with sourcing out the vacuum pump for the compound. |
Volleyguy,
You are a perfect example of what I was saying to John. You and I have talked and you were reluctant to put out more cash for parts but in the end look what you learned and look where your system is because of it.
The important thing to note is when you said " The key thing in this thread is start with a set of speakers you REALLY like to begin with. I think you may find you are in essence done with trading speakers after that. (so likely your last speakers)"
If the speakers you have do not fit that criteria then do not bother or go the cheapest route with parts. However, if your speakers are keepers then investing in the filter is a wise investment.
You can spend more and more money on an expensive amp but in the end it will only amplify the noise from the crossover. A cheaper amp with speakers having better crossover parts will yield better results. |
Tom,
I've been meaning to get up with you. I have used the Cascade on inductors but in an inductor power supply for my Wadia. In this case I did not hear the before so as you I cannot comment.
As you know I have used it and it does work well with coating the inside of a speaker cabinet as you have mentioned. I have used it on expensive drivers and in the end I threw the drivers away.
The potting compound was designed for the application that is mentioned with the inductors. Look at Tweek Geek and click the new Bybee conditioner. They have the lid off and you will see they have potted everything. So potting a transformer in an amp or CDP is possible.
Potting a North Creek inductor allows you to fill the center and put a 1/4x20 brass spacer while wet. Once dry run a 1/4x20 brass bolt thru it to the bottom of the xover into a brass 1/4x20 insert. It will act as an Audiopoint. Just keep the inductor 1/4 inch of the bottom of the xover.
From my experience there is no silver bullet with this stuff. If the drivers have excessive resonance then I am sure the Cascade would work great. In the application I was applying it, as you are familiar with, it was counter productive.
|
John,
I understand more clearly now that you have explained where you are coming from. The Clarity MR is a well balance cap.
My intent was not to pound my point across but to let you be aware of the pitfalls. I have dealt with people who said what you are only to jump on the upgrade wagon. This is audio after all. That was why I wanted you to be aware of what could happen.
I feel you have set your coarse and I wish you well on the journey you are to embark upon. |
Rfog18,
Because your inductors are in series with the tweeter I am assuming they are a small value. Under 1.0 mH perhaps.
You may have already mentioned this but are your xovers internal or external?
Look at the Cast this way. With the dollar losing value and the threat of losing the privilege as the worlds currency, having some commodities such as copper might prove a wise investment :-) |
Undertow,
I have used the Jupiter HT and think they are a very good cap. They don't have the tonal balance or naturalness of the Duelunds. They are no doubt warmer. The Clarity MR and Jupiters pair well together. This would help prevent tilting the sonics in one direction.
Jeff over @ Sonic Craft has them and usually can get them to you the same week you order. |
Bob,
If a .665mH inductor works best then I would get that value. You mentioned Alpha Core being able to manufacture that specific value. Duelund will also be able to.
Even if your xovers are external you still are going to have mechanical vibration. Electric current passing thru caps/inductors/resistors will create some degree of this. Taking your xovers out of a speaker cabinet is no doubt a better way to go than internal. However, you will, to a lesser degree, have mechanical vibration.
Is all copper created equal if you are using alloy 101 or 99.99 copper? Most of the copper I have used in audio is not soft annealed. If it isn't then it will act more like an antenna and produce microphonics more than soft annealed.
Secondly the geometry of the copper is as important as the quality of the copper itself. With Duelund using soft annealed copper and the geometry being foil maybe this is what makes them a cut above other caps I have tried.
The same applies to silver. Try a copper inductor against the silver. Only you can decide what is best. If I was a betting man I know what horse I would lay my money down on.
Regarding the wiring I will leave that question alone. But will say it does pay great dividends to use a high quality wire for inside the cabinets and the xovers themselves. |
Volleyguy,
I am not sure what gauge inductor you currently use but the Duelunds are 12 awg. So the DCR should be close to what you are using if it is a 14-12 awg inductor.
I have not compared the WPIO inductors to the Cast. I have compared numerous VSF caps to Cast. From my experience the inductor is the most critical. Once you hear the noise other inductors introduce compared to the Cast it makes it easier to reach for the checkbook.
I would like to hear from any other member who has experience with the Duelund Cast inductors. It can be silver or copper. |
Volleyguy,
Please keep us posted with your progress regarding the inductors.
The Duelund silver wire I am selling is left over from all the projects I was doing. When I bought it I purchased 50 meters. I have used around 35 meters of it and have done three pairs of speakers and crossovers, and some internal wiring for electronics. I am keeping some in reserve for any future projects but decided to sell some here.
If you are asking if I like the silver wire then my response is most definitely. I just bought more than I need.
Also I will be selling some of the numerous crossover parts I have. Caps/inductors/resistors. I have enough to compete with Parts Connexion :-) |
Rfogel8,
I thought the same thing about caps compared to inductors. However, in some cases the inductor provides the larger sonic gain. If you decide to use a Cast inductor you will know what I am talking about. The noise is eliminated or at least not audible. So my comment about inductors pertains to the Cast. Using another brand of inductors I have found that the caps bring more to the table.
But then again what do I know :-) |
Vn101606,
I would like to hear your feedback regarding the inductors. I use an all Cast xover and found it to be money well spent. |
Cut the leads as short as possible is the best thing. If that is not an option then use unbleached cotton. I have multiple xover's using all Duelund and I have found this works best. |
