Question for those with experience in biamping:
I bought a second pair or Krell fbp 750mcx, a Pass XVR-1 and interconnects/cables to biamp the Dunlavy SC-VI. I will use the extra set of Krell exclusively for the 4 x 15 woofers.
The passive crossover circuit for the parallel 15 drivers has a series inductor of 6.8mH (first order crossover), and then a RC circuit (Zobel for impedance equalization) with R= 0R37 (6x 2R2 in parallel) and C of 220uF.
When I biamp with the new set of 750mcx, should I: (i) remove only the inductor and leave the parallel RC, or (ii) remove also the parallel RC?
Of course I can try both alternatives, listen and measure, but I would like your opinions. |
For those who have experience burning Duelund CAST capacitors with the cable cooker.
a) I first put the 7.5uF in series with 2.4uF to burn with the cable cooker. How many days do you suggest?
b) Then I will put the huge 56uF. How many days?
Thanks |
The cap on Humble Homemade HiFi site is NOT the new cap from Jupiter. The Flat stacked Beeswax cap has been out for over a year but just now got reviewed. This brand new not yet released Copper foil cap is suppose to be way, way better than the current best Jupiter caps. Wait and see....er hear. |
Hi Ricevs, There is an updated Capacitors Test in Humble Homemade Hifi with regard to the new Jupiter Flat Stacked Beeswax Cryo Capacitor. The new Jupiters have some deep vaacum, cryo (?, 1 mm diam. silver lead outs, high pressure and mechanically well damped techniques that have never been used in a Jupiter cap.
The excellent Jupiter's final score is higher comparing f.e. to the Amp Ohm FE-XAL-AL's or Clarity Cap MR's or Mundorf MCap Supreme Silver/Gold's scores, but somehow ... far enough to the cast copper Duelund"s point rating. |
Hi...
Has anyone tried these clarity TC , http://www.claritycap.co.uk/products/tc.php as their power supply caps ????
I'm think I'm going to try them in the 2a3 amp I have ordered, which will show up in a couple of months.
/Michael |
Hi Charles1dad.
Will first receive my 2a3 DHC Amp in 2-3 month of time.
To be honest , I'm still in a state of emotional chock
after heard was it capable of.
/Michael |
It should take until the end of September for my DIY colleague to build the 1st phase of the external crossovers (changing resistors first). As the phases get done I will be posting the results. Cheers. |
I am glad folks are trying the JFX caps. Folks, listen up....these are very, very good and only $3 or so a pop for the smaller coupling or output size caps.
Try it folks. You will be pleased. |
If Jupiter can develop a foil capacitor that sounds better than the Duelund CAST for less money that'd be quite an accomplishment. Hype and hope is one thing, actually achieving this is another. Once these capacitors are available time will tell. High End audio is ripe with stories about the next great product. Sometimes they come through, sometimes they don't.
Regards, |
That's great news Ricevs! I will keep an eye out for the new Jupiters.
In the meantime, I am trying some JB JFX Premiums that were recommended earlier in this thread. They are quite good sounding by any standard, and when you factor in the price (about 5% of a Duelund CAST) they are a real find. |
Better than copper cast Dueland? Jupiter Condenser is going to be releasing a new copper foil capacitor in about 2-3 months. Two people have compared prototypes directly to cast copper Duelands (a .1 and .47) and are hearing things they never heard before (all good things). These caps will be much less expensive than the Duelands but more than the current Jupiter caps. The pricing has not been set. The new Jupiters have some new techniques that have never been used in a Jupiter cap. Silver leads will be standard. They will be available in the same values that the current caps are available in...ie...there will be 100V versions for speakers and 600V versions for tube electronics. Please don't call Jupiter to find out more info.....please let them have the time to make these things. There is nothing more Chris can tell you than what I just wrote......We will just have to wait. I will be getting some in as soon as they come off the press and will report here. I am most interested in the 100V versions for my open baffle speaker kits I am developing.
So, imagine a cap at less than half the price of a cast copper Dueland that sounds better.....a nice image indeed. Stay tuned. |
Hi Michaelvv,
It`s good to know you have a high quality 2A3 DHT amp for such a reasonable cost.DHT based tubes(SET or PP) are my favorite type of amplifiers,they so naturally convey music`s emotion when properly implemented. I mentioned the 2A3 amp by Dennis Fracker(Serious Stero) which has a great reputation but is very expensive! Congratulations, you have two fine power amps to enjoy.
Charles, |
Hi Again...
The Amp I have listening too, Is made but one of my good
friends who are an audio manufacturer located here we I'm
living in Denmark.
Unfortunately his webpage is in Danish, but maybe google
translation can help you.
The link is here : http://www.audio-classic.dk/index.php/forstaerker.html
He's asking 9500 DKR which equals 1600-1700 USD.
There a tons of good schematics on the Internet, and a lot
is DC based , no caps in the signal path at all.
All my amps are build by this guy, Because it's so easy for
me too be able to upgrade, 9 Km i distance from where I'm living.
I'll post a little more, when I get the 2a3.
All your Americans have tons of possibilities, fever if living in Europe, but quite some.
This amp is not going to replace my belowed 6c33 monos, it's
just meant as number 2 amp.
What I was remembering is the magic of the 2a3 Tube.
On Acoustic Recordings It's a whole new experience.
My recommendation is try a Direct Coupled DHT 2a3 if you have efficient Speakers, keep you existent Amps if you need to be able to play really loud.
/Michael
|
I have been following Jimmy's site on his testing of the "no name" electrolytic capacitor in the power supply. He says he could recognize the difference in a few seconds and that is over the Jensen 4 pole Electrolytic.
"on several seconds" I have not heard the Jensen 4 pole only have the 2 pole but on "several seconds" I could hear how much better the vintage electrolytic is. To me this means "if" the Jensen is considered a very good electrolytic by Jimmy and I am sure he has heard most all and within "several seconds" he could hear an easy difference we are nowhere near as good as we could be with electrolytics!
Occasions where I could hear the difference within "several seconds".
1 going from vintage foil in oil tweeter caps to Duelund VSF.
2 going from Duelund VSF tweeter caps to Duelund CAST.
3 going from vintage woofer inductor to Duelund VSF
4 going from Jensen Electrolytic back to vintage
5 comparing Sonicaps to vintage foil caps
Out of all the parts I have changed hearing the difference "in several seconds" happens far less than "needing hours" to hear the difference or admitting you can not hear the difference or are not sure what the difference is?
Parts that took time but differences can be heard
1 comparing a vintage foil midrange cap to a Duleund VSF
2 comparing Mundorf Supreme to Sonicaps
3 comparing Duelund Silver 2.0 to stranded copper for speaker cable.
4 comparing on a friends Khorns 20 yr old stock poly caps to Sonicaps. (I can't hear the difference)
If one can hear the difference "in several seconds" that indicates quite often a HUGE resonance reduction. I had mentioned on here before if a Jensen Electrolytic is an indication of a very good modern electrolytic then modern electrolytics are very poor! An area where MUCH can be done for improvement.
I know some will say how can you make big improvements over a top level part? Well Duelund VSF was considered the best cap in the world " super natural" and a CAST came along and is wayyyyyy quieter. |
Meant to write Dennis Fraker. |
Michael,
Are you referring to the Serious Stereo Audio amp by Dennis Fracker?
Regards, |
Micheal, can you give us any more details on the direct coupled 2A3 amp? |
Hi...
Away for a very long time. Just heard the best capacitor ever. This was a 2a3 SET direct coupled. Which of course
does not use any caps at all.
It was playing music, on a whole new level.
The only drawback it's limited to 3.5Watt output. But I think with my 99DB speaker, I would match. I will have a listening session on my own speakers within the next 2 weeks, can't wait.
/Michael |
Hi
I have taken the plunge and ordered CAST PIO-cu + VST-cu caps and CAST copper inductors for my speaker (satelite- see my virtual system) 1.order serial crossover (at least i think it is 1.order. Serial filters is quite complex and i have an expert doing the filter design). One cap and one inductor in signal path (and a L-pad). The CAST components will be the only components in series with the signal. The VST cap will be in paralell to tweeter signal. All resistors are already Duelund CAST. Paralell caps for midrange will be either Mundorf supreme or SIO (open for suggestions) mixed with some Mundorf SGIO that i already have and use in the crossover.
I have only one inductor in each serial crossover, a North Creek 8 AWG which i think performs absolutely superb (my BLH Nagaoka satelites do the job from 130-7000Hz). The NC replaced a good foil-inductor and was a significant upgrade soundwise. I didn't think of upgrading this before reading the rave about the Duelund inductors here... For my basstowers the boss inductor is a 6kg North Creek 8AWG. This will not be replaced!
My extremely positive experience with the CAST resistors is mainly the reason i go further with the Duelund replacements. This thread also helped with all inputs on Duelund components in different speakers and gear (for now the speaker crossover experiences are the most interesting). Starstruck with the CAST resistors i hope for more of the same effect with more/only Duelund components in the signal path! |
Irish and I are both in the inductor camp. (as in I can not believe how much difference they make)
A friend was over who has Khorn's and subs and he could not believe how much bass was coming out of my Lascala's a bass shy speaker. His speakers are rated for 20hz lower, his system is home theater based with subs and yet mine which is two channel has more bass. (not deeper but much more)
I know the reason and it is the Duelund inductors. I only have VSF inductors and the thoughts of going from them to CAST has enter my mind many times... |
Vn101606,
I would like to hear your feedback regarding the inductors. I use an all Cast xover and found it to be money well spent. |
Vn101606,
I saw the picture. OK, I'm drooling...are you happy now? |
I put in a photo of the Duelund caps, inductors and resitors in my Virtual System page, under "Duelund CAST external crossover". |
I just received my Duelunds: three pairs of CAST-cu capacitors, three pairs of CAST-cu inductors, lots of CAST resistors. Total weight: 25Kg. Very nice looking and huge. |
Salectric,
The Dac CAST cap is 1.0uf and has solid wire
The speaker crossover CAST is 5.6uf and has braided copper leads. |
Charles, what value cap did you use on your DAC output? Does it have copper braid leads or solid wire? |
Salectric,
Yes,try the larger value CAST, cool and analytical is the last description I`d use for those capacitor`s contribution.
Charles, |
Charles1dad, I agree with you 100%. More natural sound and less "hifi" hype is what we want. So far I would put the Duelund CAST caps in that category. The speaker crossover caps definitely. My only concern at this point concerns the .47uf CAST caps on the output of my phono stage. I have a nagging feeling that I may have lost something when I took out the 2uf V-Caps that I had there previously. The Duelund is faster and cleaner sounding, but perhaps a bit too cool and analytical. I need to swap them again to be sure. I am also wondering if my 1uf CAST caps may do better there than the .47. The .47 has different leads than my 1uf or the new 7.5uf. Both of the bigger caps have a copper braided leads but the .47 has solid thin-gauge leads. |
Salectric,
I agree with your statement concerning the Duelund CAST capacitor value. They are expensive but have given me very satisfying results and improvevment. Placing them in my DAC and Coincident speakers was money very well spent( a bargain in hindsight).
In High End audio more expensive does`nt always equate to better sound,this is one example where the cost is justified. The highest compliment I can give the CAST is its ability to increase the naturalness of sound presentation, more realism and less Hifi.What`s more desirable than that outcome?
Regards, |
I read the 10Audio review of Sonicap Gen 1 vs. Mundorf S/O vs. V-Cap OIMP caps. I certainly agree with his conclusion about the problems with bypass caps. I don't agree about Silver/oil sounding like Sonicap Gen 1, however. I have used Gen 1 caps a number of times and they are a decent sounding cap. The Gen 1 is too lean for my tastes but the main problem is that its resolution doesn't extend deep enough; at first it sounds detailed but you quickly realize the detail is superficial. I suspect at the time the reviewer he did the comparisons (2005 and 2006) he hadn't heard what a truly detailed cap can sound like. By this I mean a V-Cap TFTF or CUTF, Duelund CAST or, at a somewhat lesser level, a large value Sonicap Platinum (such as 1uf). Without a quality reference cap like these, it is hard to judge detail retrieval capability. |
I don't have any trouble seeing how important the woofer inductor (low-pass) is sonically. What surprised me was that the high-pass inductor is also very important.
I tried a number of different chokes on my woofer before settling on the North Creek 10g, and the type of choke used in the low-pass has a major effect on sound quality, perhaps even more than the cap in the high-pass section. Of course, I didn't try a CAST choke and I don't doubt that it could sound better than the North Creek but it's a question of where to draw the line. My woofer has a 3.0mH and the high-pass has a 2.2. The CAST versions would cost over $1000 each, i.e. $4000 for a stereo pair. The North Creek 10g costs about $200 each or $800 for all of them. This all gets rather expensive pretty quickly!
That said I do think the CAST caps have proven to be good value. In other words, the improvement in sound quality has been worth the cost. So I won't rule out the inductors but I am resisting. |
Sherwood posted a link to an older review of caps. Again to the what it looks like. The reviewer said the Mundorf was not much better than the Soncicaps and I have to disagree and have heard both of them quite a bit. The Mundorf sounds similiar to Sonicaps as it is being poly but is MUCH more dynamic. Is the Mundorf Supreme not 2 caps in one or something? |
"That's interesting about the vintage inductor". Salectric
I not so sure the vintage beating the Duelund VSF inductor is so surprising. I have been shocked how many times when you think about how the parts work that results are logical. The vintage is a hard wire wrapped very tightly in wax. The Duelund is a foil. If you ask yourself which will move easier? It is hard not to think the foil. The Duelund likely has 100x as much top to bottom surface area on the foil over I think around 28 guage solid wire.
Since the frequency is high the benifet of 12 gauge is maybe low?
It is just crazy how many times the part sounds like it looks. The North Creek woofer inductor has no resonance control it sounds hard like it looks. It lets through signal but the noise is to high. The vintage 28 gauge iron core wax paper was quiet but did not let through the bass the Duelund VSF had resonance control compared to North Creek was 12 gauge unlike the vintage which was 28. The Duelund made a huge improvement. I bet the CAST even much more so.
Regrets so far.
1 I wish I bought CAST woofer inductor vs. VSF.
2 Duelund VSF for tweeter not good enough. CAST or nothing and I wish smaller gauge and CAST might not be worth it as the vintage is a lot better than VSF.
3 Jensen Electrolytic way to noisy. (too lightweight and no wonder everyone like those big heavy Black Gates)
In hindsight these are all logical to me now.... |
I followed Volleyguy's lead regarding vintage chokes and swapped in some old Altec iron-core chokes from the late '70s or early '80s. They replaced Jantzen 15g. P-Core (ferrous powder) chokes as the shunt element in my high-pass crossover. The values are not identical----the Altecs are 2.0mH and the Jantzens are 2.2mH---but close enough. The Altecs do a number of things better. They are faster, more dynamic and more detailed; but they are also a bit lean. For now I am leaving them in but the real take-away for me is how important this shunt element is sonically. I really had not expected this magnitude of change merely by swapping chokes of basically the same value and same DCR. In my low-pass crossover I use North Creek 10g air core inductors. I may look into something similar for the high-pass. |
Here's one man's review of a few caps in a Magnepan crossover. Note at the bottom his opinion on bypass caps.
http://10audio.com/sonicap_oimp_multicap.htm |
Like most things it comes down to execution and the results may in fact be in the details. I will report back on my findings as I must learn first hand ... |
Salectric,
Your point regarding bypass capacitors makes intuitive sense. It would seem a single cap of the correct value and high quality is the path to better sound (which for me means natural). If this increased speed comes with an artificial hyped character, I'd personally forego the small value bypass cap option. The different opinions here are interesting and appreciated.
Charles, |
Thanks to all and good follow up ....... I am going to try some on large can, computer grade electro's in a power supply. We will see. I don't like tilted up highs or mids, but greatly prefer a warm tone with good detail. |
Based on my experiences with bypassing coupling and crossover caps, I'm in the same camp as Salectric. I have always preferred using one only of the highest quality cap( within one's budget and tonal preferences) with the suggested value. I always hear the bypass cap, giving the illusion of this false airiness in the highs, almost like a tilting up or shelving effect. I also believe that good quality caps, i.e. film and foil, need much more break-in time than some people might think. I don't have enough experience with comparing small bypass caps on large eletrolytics in power supplies. That could be another story. By the way, the top caps like Mundorf's SIO and the Duelund VSF copper, need a minimum of 200 hours before they show their true colors. This is just my personal opinion and your mileage might vary. :o) |
The audio game is very subjective. Some are always looking for "tone and density".....some want speed and clarity....others are looking for "transparency....ie no sound". The only way to know if something works for you is to try it. And when you try something make sure you are covering all the bases: various brands, sizes and types, damping of part, isolation of part, damping of bare wire, orientation of part (outside foil), burning in of part, etc. etc. If you do enough playing around then you will come to your own conclusions based on your subjective criteria. You will be making your stereo sound the way you want. We need to please ourselves.....so please do not believe anyone.....including me. Please do your own experiments. |
Don't know where this leads, but something 4 the holiday reading list.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue65/reader5.htm |
For another perspective, I avoid bypass caps whenever possible for the simple reason that I can always hear them. They add a discontinuity very similar to adding a super-tweeter to a full-range speaker system. There is a heightening of treble extension and speed, and the soundstage seems larger and more dramatic, but after a while I find the effects of the bypass cap to be distracting and unnatural. Often, but not always, the bypass cap also causes the bass to become lean. These effects are audible whenever I try a bypass---coupling caps, power supply, speaker crossovers, etc.
Obviously, some folks do not react this way since otherwise no one would use bypass caps, but I am just pointing out that there is another perspective on them. In my view, you should always use a single cap with the correct value, and if the application has important sonic implications (and most do) then use the best sounding cap you can find. |
I bypass everywhere....tube and solid state electronics and speakers. Have since 1980. Now using the smallest (5mm lead spacing) stock film and foil Wimas, modded Metalized Wimas and Vishay Rodersteins as they are the smallest and therefore fastest caps. I will be listening to the .01uf (2.5mm lead spacing) FPK-02 Wimas this week...just got them in. The metalized Wimas need to be modded as they have steel leads on them. I dremel off the sides and leads and attach my own copper leads. Most of these small caps are only rated at 63V or 100V so tube preamps/amps are a no no. However, some are made at 400V (low values like .01 max) but are hard to find. I mark all caps for outside polarity before use. |
The best way to mount crossover parts is in an outboard crossover box. It is hard to believe how many crossover components are placed right inside a bass cavity with the woofer and cab throwing all kinds of vibrations etc. at the components. I removed a pretty extensive crossover from a bass cab into its own high quality vibration dampened box and the improvement was startling to say the least.
At least make sure it is very secure and I like what Salectric said. |
Volleyguy1, That's interesting about the vintage inductor. While I am waiting for my 7.5uf CAST caps to break in, I plan on trying some old Altec iron core chokes in place of the Jensen choke in my high-pass crossover.
I notice that no one in this thread has mentioned the importance of mounting of crossover components. I was reminded of the importance of mounting after installing the new Duelund cap. Initially I had the cap lying flat on its bottom surface and I was a bit concerned that the cap sounded so dead and dark. I know from past Duelunds that they can start out this way so I wasn't too upset but I did want to do something to make it sound better while it broke in. I tried various objects under the cap to raise it off the wood surface it was resting on such as felt, rubber, wood and a brass cone. The cone started out as the perfect antidote making the treble sharper and more lively. After a few hours, however, it was too bright and I went to a 3/4" cube of Baltic Birch plywood---just a single cube under one edge of the cap so the cap is at an angle resting on the cube on one side and on a single point of the cap on the other side. The little cube now has just the right balance.
My point in raising this is not to endorse a particular mounting as the best way to attach a CAST cap, but simply to highlight the importance of the mounting. I haven't made any final plans for how to mount my crossover components, but my tentative plan is to attach them to a thin Baltic Birch plywood panel (1/2" or less) which in turn will be attached to the outside of the back panel of my speaker cabinet, probably with some type of rubber damping gaskets so the crossover board does not actually make direct contact with the speaker cabinet. The crossover components themselves will be secured to the plywood panel by some means that elevates them off the panel so they are in free-air mounting as much as possible. The CAST cap is so big and heavy that I am thinking of using (3) 3/4" Baltic Birch cubes under it and maybe (3) dowels on the circumference to hold it in place. |
Grannyring
I for sure am not against cheaper parts being just as good or better. I have said many times vintage caps can represent a very good bargain. (as they are in essence free) My original oil caps were bettered by Duelund in the midrange but not by a large margin.
I am only saying what is the science in these poly caps being better and I am not saying they are not? What makes them better than say any other poly cap?
Update on Duelund in series tweeter inductor. I have taken the Duelund inductor out again and the vintage wax paper inductor is back in.
Clarify what the two parts are one the vintage inductor thin gauge round wire wrapped tight around a paper bobbin in wax paper. The Duelund is of course 12 gauge foil wire. Why does the vintage inductor sound better? Is it the change in DCR or maybe the Duelund is just noisier than the vintage part which it seems to be???
In the woofer the vintage wax paper inductor was a very thin gauge wire with an iron core inductor and the air core 12 guage Duelund which had the same DCR was much better but the vintage was quieter than the North Creek.
Here I will say it. I suspect that resonance suppression in the tweeter inductor is more important than the gauge of the wire. If this is true maybe the vintage inductor is better? The comparison is based on Duelund VSF which does not have the same construction to deal with resonance that the CAST does.
What would I like to see Duelund do? Maybe a thinner gauge wire option for the tweeter and cheaper price but still CAST? Inductors are a VERY big deal.
I am not so sure at this time that I can say a Duelund VSF inductor is good enough for the tweeter. |
Ricevs,
I am building a preamp and soon some amps and your post is quite interesting. The whole bypass cap argument has passionate debate on both sides. Some say they do nothing, others say they degrade sound and yet others love them like you.
Have you tried this approach in gear besides speakers? Tube amps? I am open to the idea and will most likely a/b with and without bypass caps to come to the truth for me.
Do you bypass power supply caps and coupling caps? If the tube amp is regulated, then have you found bypassing still helps?
Sorry for all the questions, but this is quite interesting.
Ok Volley and others those JFX JB Premium film caps are absolutely wonderful in electronics. Just try and see first hand. Goodness they cost $3 a $20 each! I call it the way it is regardless of cost as I learn. I love the Duelund CAST and I love these also! I could live equally with both and one cost near 100x less! Ha!
I have not tried them in speakers yet. To my ear they sound better than any Mundorf in electronics. |
"Whatever 'type' of cap one uses, you can easily id its 'signature' sound downstream. Frankly to an astonishing extent".
I for sure can not argue with this.
Like Tony Gee had said Duelund has a Super Natual sound. I might be on my own on this but think the "signature" that caps gives leaves me wondering can you get to much of the Duelund "signature"? I know maybe my wallet can only afford so much "signature" but can my ears get too much of it?
I will re-check when the vintage ASC power supply amp comes back but those poly caps in the power supply seemed to overwhelm the entire vintage character of the amp and Duelund crossover to something totally different. Changing the coupling caps from vintage to Duelund CAST made the amp much beefier, faster and better but the character remained. Never did the amp change "character". The VCap Cuft changed the character of the amp as well.
I found the same on mix and match in the crossover. Change to just one cap to a poly cap and you change the "character"
That comes back to the Duelund power supply I wish I could afford to chance. My gut tells me if ASC and Jensen Electrolytic leave a signature a Duelund power supply would have a "signature" I would love and make a very big difference! |
Ricevs
If I remember right Tony Gee said the same about (bypass) caps except maybe the high end caps you mentioned. When you find the right spot do give Duelund's a try.
You also mention any cap larger than .33uf needs a bypass. All of my amps are vintage and use .047 or smaller. Anyone know what caused the change in thinking for modern designs to be .47uf or .22uf? |
I have not listened to Mundorf or Dueland caps but I have always found that any cap larger than .33 needs a very small bypass cap for extended top end and detail. I know someone who just recapped his speaker with all Clarity Cap MRs and he then bypassed all the Claritys with the .1 and .01 Vishay Roderstein MKP1837s....mucho better highs and air. Large caps are inductive and therefore slow by nature. The Roderstein 1837 and the Wima small caps are fast as they are tiny by comparison. I just ordered some Wima FKP 02 .01s to try. These film and foil polyprops have only a 2.5mm lead spacing...very small(28 cents each at 100 from TAW). Audio Research has always bypassed all their coupling caps and power supply rails with .01s.
All film caps need to be marked for outside foil and oriented so the foil is to ground or the output. Also, you never want a cap dangling in the air or long bare wire dangling in the air....please hard mount the caps and damp bare wire with cotton sleeving. These things all make a sonic difference for the better. |
