What's the gauge of your current inductor?
Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil
I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.
I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.
There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)
In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)
So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.
1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.
Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.
So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.
different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.
All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!
Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.
For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?
When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)
The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.
The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.
I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.
There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)
In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)
So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.
1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.
Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.
So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.
different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.
All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!
Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.
For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?
When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)
The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.
The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.
3,012 responses Add your response
Duelund I am not sure? Very thin though maybe 18 to 22 guage. .29DCR Iron core at 2.5mh. Should one want to go lower DCR? I keep hearing two sides to that issue. A 12 guage Air Core closely matches original DCR. 10 and 8 guage are both or course lower DCR. Guage of wire is one issue but resonance must also be an issue and more than I thought. When one can clearly hear less resonance from the VSF (an excellent cap) to CAST. Another issue must be the silk or whatever the wire is coated in as Irish65 thought your 12 gauge to sound better than 8 guage albeit at much more cost. But I also assume resonance means much more in the tweeter freq than the woofer? Am I wrong here? North Creek says people talk about improved midrange (with the bigger lower DCR woofer coil) is that because of less resonance (with a high quality coil) in the low freq make the midrange stand out better more clearly? If I get 10 or 8 guage I am looking at dual runs of Duelund 14.5 guage copper hook up wire to the woofer. It just seems strange to have a thick wire inductor running to a less thick hook up wire. Bottle neck? Thanks very much for the help in clearing the thought process on this. I assume the Silk and oil on the copper wire is the same as on the capacitors and inductors? |
Be careful with the placement of huge gauge air core inductors - they throw off very large magnetic fields! I'm experimenting with some 12 gauge Northcreek inductors for my speakers, and they will actually cause music to play from a disconnected driver if it is passed with 2-3 inches of them, right through thin air! I can only imagine that the 8 and 10 gauge will produce even bigger fields than that. So be sure to orient the crossover components in ways that minimize these effects (axes at 90 deg angles, lots of space in between, etc.). There are placement diagrams on the internet to help with that. |
Wow! Ait My speaker design makes 90 deg easy as the crossover sits flat but do not like the sound of that idea sound coming out of the wrong driver! What would be lots of space. I have done some reading with some saying that was one "advantage" (if you want to call it that) of Iron core is the Iron core overwhelms everything in the area so it not affected by magnets from drivers. (if you call that an advantage?) Have you thought about outboard? I can find very little on this subject of inductors? (except from manufactures) What do the North Creek's sound like? Did you come from Iron Core or another Air Core? and same guage? |
I am building outboard x-overs using the Northcreek inductors on the woofers and low mid, and Solen Heptalitz inductors on everything else (it is a 6-way design with 10 inductors, 9 capacitors, 5 resistors and three adjustment pots per speaker). Needless to say if I went Duelund for caps and inductors I'd be broke, so I'm using Mundorf Supreme caps and the above-mentioned inductors!! I might spring for some Duelund resistors, however. I did the driver induction experiment just to see how close I could get to the inductors before I heard interference - it was very surprising how much of a magnetic field they set up. If you put those inductors inside a speaker enclosure you'd better make sure they are far from the drivers. Also, inductors will interfere with each other (look up "inductor crosstalk"). The inductors need to be well separated in space if they are in the same plane (i.e. both lying flat), I found that the bigger inductors need ~8 inches between them in that sort of arrangement. If you place them with their axes at 90 degrees, you can get them closer - see the chart I linked below: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?p=1500176 Iron has a much higher magnetic permeability than air, and that causes the magnetic field of iron-core inductors to be contained in a much smaller space, so they can be placed closer together than air cores without interfering. Iron cores, however suffer from hysteresis distortion and can saturate at high power levels. I have not heard the Northcreeks in a finished speaker yet, only on the crossover prototype board with a driver wired into them - they sound good, but I won't know any more until I finish putting the speakers back together. |
Ait Sorry I was kind of joking with the Iron core. Meaning it is a side benefit of hysteresis. I totaly understand where you are coming from on the cost factor and think you have made good choices. Mundorf Supreme's are a very good bang for the buck cap. I would love Duelund inductors but that is the tough part knowing if that is the best place to put fixed amount of $. Duelund resitors are supposed to be best bang for the buck part as well. Keep us posted on your rebuild. I did check on a seperate issue on the net they had copper prices the lowest in history in 2002. (U.S. $) The second lowest year was 1932. (inflation adjusted price) So today's copper price is not out of line at all! In fact when my speaker were built copper was twice as expensive as today. Steen did say good inductors would be measured in pounds or kilo's of copper or silver etc. |
Sorry copper link. http://www.fwallstreet.com/blog/183.htm Rumour has it that the Chinese want copper (and other commodities) instead of $. So unlikely we are going to see copper prices of 6 years ago maybe the lowest in history. In the 1800's copper was $16 a pound. Those North Creek inductors have 10 lbs of copper in the 8 guage so up to $160 in 1800's copper prices per inductor! http://silverstockreport.com/email/copper_discovery.html |
Sorry guys for the commodity post. The stock and commodity trader coming out in me. I do not own copper futures but other commodities. I bought the first 20 ft of Duelund copper wire. (more to come) Ait like you I am trying for bang for buck. I think that is why threads like this can help. I am getting North Creek knowing (or at least I believe Irish65) that Duelund sounds better but at $1k an inductor! I can get North Creek and V-Cap teflon an amp for less! Now would a VCap'ed amp and North Creek inductors sound better? Not sure but would expect so. Duelund I do have the upmost confidence in your products no doubt but why do your inductors cost sooooo much more than anyone else? Your caps are not? Yes they are more but not that much more. |
Face I did just order a 10 guage North Creek today. It changes the resistance from .29ohms to .15ohms. I understand the bass will be tighter but maybe leaner? A 12 guage is the closest to original spec. After listening I would like tighter faster bass. I hope I have guessed right? North Creek seems to think I will like 8 guage even better. It is not the money it is am going in the right direction. Might have an inductor to sell. The part I don't like about tuning is selling parts for half or less that have no use! I did not know Clarity cap came from Wales? It is quite big. |
Volleyguy, Please call North Creek and change your Inductor guage to 8 guage so you will be happy. I have the 8 guage for the Klipsch KLF-2O . Set-12 on Audio Karma has the 8 guage on his Klipsch Forte speakers. I think you will find the bass improved like Duelund improves the mid and tweeter frequencies. David Pritchard |
I don't have enough experience with inductors to know which types tend to cause interference. However, the large Alphacore air-core inductors that I'm using as HF analog filters in my CDP, were intially a bear in terms of EMI fireworks. The problem was tamed through careful positioning. EMI/RFI cages are another approach, but one must be cautious lest excessive shielding smother sonics. |
Hi Dave Is there any negative to lower DCR? At the price of North Creek 8 guage is getting close to Duelund WPIO time you add in shipping. (Duelund has close to original DCR with 12 guage) Do you have your inductors in yet? I am still looking at 8 guage that is why I ordered just one inductor for now. Plus shipping to Canada oddly enough can be cheaper for one inductor than two if it goes below USPS shipping weight limit. Yes I know SET is very happy with his 8 guage and of course he changed the DCR of his speakers. Some say bad idea? I just don't know? |
Volleyguy, Talk to George @ North Creek. Numerous loudspeaker companies hire him as a consultant for their crossovers. He will provide you a wealth of info. I have used the North Creek inductors (8 awg) on a few application and there was never a downside. In fact it always improved the crossover with them in. I was hearing the same things as you so I bought numerous inductors and conducted my own test. Get the 8 awg North Creek inductors if funds do not permit the Duelund Cast. Or get them both and decide for yourself. |
One thing about shielding - although it decreases the radiated EMI, it also changes the inductance of the inductor being shielded, by as much as 20%. The magnetic field is where the energy storage occurs in an inductor, so messing with it will change the inductor's parameters. So either you adjust for the loss by buying a bigger inductor to start with, or you live with 20% lower inductance than spec. |
Ait So does that make the Duelund WPIO inductor better in the sense that it is wrapped in paper? There must be less interference? Irish65 I wish you could say what you thought was better about Duelund or why you thought it to be that way? Your opinion could mean a lot as you have tried many components. |
Volleyguy, Regarding pricing: The price of our inductors is based on the expenditure and working hours we spend, a lot like everybody else I presume. The foil we require is quite expensive to procure, then the winding with paper and subsequent oil impregnation under vacuum for 5 days also cost us a pretty penny. (I believe we are the only ones to do this with inductors, though I may be wrong). Finally, the casting proces is done entirely in house and takes another 5 days, everything done by hand. This is not to boast about our own products, but a normal inductor often takes from 1 minute - 1 hour to make. We spend at least 14 days, where the inductor is actively "under way". Which in the end has an impact on cost. Also since we typically deal in small quantities we find that buying raw materials tend to be expensive. An example is a pair of CAST 8 AWG inductors we made for an upcoming US speaker, where we had to buy a minimum quantity of foil much larger than the pair of inductors required. Again, I hope this presentation will be seen as being in good taste. But since you asked directly about cost, I felt the need to elaborate. |
Thanks Duelund Sorry just one more question are all CAST inductors 8AWG I thought they were 12AWG? Is this a special case? The WPIO are not done under vacuum for 5 days are they? Are you talking about the CAST inductors only? My choice (budget wise) was your WPIO or another brand. (not that I would not want CAST) I have never replaced a woofer inductor and can clearly hear what the CAST does on the tweeter caps but is it my pig headedness that thinks that a low freq inductor would not be as critical to resonance? |
Volleyguy, I could throw out numerous adjectives as to how the North Creek inductors compare to the Duelund Cast. But in the end what will that accomplish? From your own tests with comparing Duelund caps with others this has provided you with an education and a definitive upgrade path. This same course of action with the inductors will yield the same results. I will say inductors are worth the money spent testing them. I will add this about the Duelund's. They have a consistent sonic signature throughout their product line. Very natural and organic. For me it is worth every penny of the price of admission. The Duelund Cast inductors compared to the North Creek is like going from a VSF to a Cast only larger. Get both and sell the loser here. If it is a common value you will not lose money and to top it of you improved your system and added an education in for free. Someday I am going to try a silver Cast inductor and compare it to the copper. From my experience the crossover is the heart of the system and a well designed crossover with high quality parts is the way to go. I make people laugh on how much I have spent on crossover parts. But in the end I laugh because they spend more on a power cord for their system then what their crossover is worth. Do not get me wrong a power cord will benefit a system. However, if funds were an issue I would not hesitate to use a stock power and put my money on the crossover. |
Irish65 As you have mentioned you read a ton and then just started buying the parts. I would love to hear what you found out? Clearly you have valuable experience to share. Most of us may not ever hear CAST AG caps or whatever else you have found out. In your upgrade path clearly you must have been thrilled (or something kept you going) with what was happening or you would not have kept going to better/more expensive parts? Like what was the most important upgrade and most cost effective. In your experience you must have that some parts were good some great and some good for the $ involved. I would imagine many would love to hear. It is no doubt part of your recommendation (and others) that I have tried North Creek. Have you done coupling caps? |
Irish65 That is good to hear about Duelund's consistent sonic signature. (for inductors) From what I have heard (VSF and CAST) they sound similiar you are paying for a huge reduction in resonance. That was the reason for (me) getting 10AWG North Creek less up front money. My inductor comparison will involve only 2 at most. The other being Duelund's WPIO. I totally agree on the crossover as the heart of the system. Something I never would have thought before. |
I was informed recently from a key person at Reference 3a that their favorite caps for their speaker crossovers are in the following order: 1. Duelund Cast Copper oil 2. Duelund VSF copper 3. Mundorf Supreme Silver/gold oil I am in the process of upgrading my Reference 3a Dulcet caps with the Duelund VSF copper. I would prefer the new Cast copper, but too much for my budget. |
I recently heard a demo of Grand Veena presented by the President of Ref 3A at a local audio club. Beautiful treble & midrange-- in those sections I don't think they use any crossover at all. He mentioned that he uses Mundorf-- probably just for LF-- which was the weakness of that speaker. Duelund is likely above their $8K price point. |
Qsg is a great contact enhancer, but it is of no use on soldered connections. Reference 3a is famous for their "minimal" approach to crossovers. My Dulcet mini-monitors have no cap at all on the mid/woofer. It is direct-coupled to the amp. I'm not sure how the crossovers are on the multiple-driver upper models. The tweeters on the Dulcet have one cap and one resistor and shunt. Very simple, time and phase correct. |
Sherod...I'm not talking about putting QuickSilver GOLD contact enhancer on SOLDER connections. I'm saying before you solder the part on the crossover board put a little QuickSilver Gold above where your going to solder the end connection on the inductors. On your crossover caps you put it on the Lead wires coming out of the cap. Same thing on the resistors you put it on the Lead wires coming out of the resistor. On the hook-up wire from the crossover board to the speaker drivers you put it on the bare wire of the cables (NOT) on the (Solder connections). It takes about 28 days for the QSG to brake-in really GOOD and will still improve up to 60 days. I think this is the best upgrade you can do to a speaker to take them to a whole new level!.... |
What? First Not sure why contact enhancer would do anything accept dissapate like Flux once you hit it with heat and the solder actually would just clear it and adhears to the metal component directly most likely just pushing the contact enhancer out of the way or turning it into fumes... Unless when you use a silver solder like WBT etc... When you apply it the gold and it actually melts and mixes into the solder while wet and gives you a gold solder connection sheen instead of bright silver? I really don't see how this is of any benefit to a connection before or after soldering said connection. I have not tried it so maybe the treament simply melts and mixes into the solder while its liquid metal, and the gold is really that much better than the silver in the solder, don't know, but maybe the explained method here is just not making any sense. Contact enhancers normally are to be used in order to lubricate and "Enhance" a connection point that is not permanently fixed by solder at all.. Such as the pins on the power cord to your wall giving the unlike metals in your outlet and your power pins a conductive liquid barrier due to mechanical movement and fit keeping it with full current flow and contact even if its a bit loose or not totally tight contacting all surface areas of the metal connection. I have used it on Quick connects inside the speaker however where the cheap TIN spades on the drivers could use a good corrosion preventer and liquid conductive material without having to Fix the connect permanent with solder. Your better off Sanding or Steel wooling your Crossover parts leads to break down the coating and then solder if you want a more prepped or clean joint, I just don't see the benefit of wasting a 100 dollar contact cleaner/enhancer on this joint and soldering it after. Again most likely if somebody does here an "Enhancement" from this, its most likely due to receiving the crossover parts and not cleaning them before solder, in turn simply applying an enhancer at more expense to give you that cleaner lead to solder. Not arguing just don't get the reason, use some sand paper on the cap and inductor leads and probably get the same results, or just buy a solder with some gold content in it. |
Sherod Either cap is great. I think the VSF are a good deal in audio. You get a plastic free super natural sounding cap at yes somewhat more than other caps like twice Mundorf Silver in Oil. But to me worth it. If it is any consolation I marvel at the sound of them and have long since forgot what I spent. (and I do not throw money away easy) Have you ever thought about trying just one cap like the tweeter cap to see if it is worth to you. I started with one cap thinking the worst thing is I was throwing away $150 or so. I know if someone said to me you are going to have $2k (in just caps) in the crossover I would not have done it. (I know I would not have done it) When you start small you can get a better mental handle on whether it is worth it. |
Volleyguy, The President of Reference 3a has already told me that the Mundorf Supreme Silver/gold oil is superior to the aluminum/paper in oil type in there now. The two Duelunds are better yet still. I have already committed to the Duelund VSF for both speakers and am hoping for great things. I'll have them in about a week so soon I'll report on the sound with them in. |
Undertow, sorry about that but my Girlfriend posted that last thread on the Quicksilver gold tweak. This is how I did this tweak, the new crossover parts were already solded to the crossover board and I let them break-in for about 3 months before I did this tweak to them. Next I cleaned the lead wires coming out out of the crossover caps and resistors with Caigs contact cleaner. I also cleaned the clip on connectors of my hook-up wires from my crossover board to my speaker drivers. I did not replace my inductors but I did chip off some of the coating of the inductors and clean it with Caigs too and then waited about 2 hours before I put the Quicksilver gold on. Next I put some Quicksilver gold on all the places I cleaned. Then I let it break-in really good for about 28 days and it seem to still improve for another 30 days or so after that. If anyone waits to get a big improvement out of their speakers this is the way to get it! |
Tell him to use 4 separate new caps instead of the multi-section can if he can't find one. He can mount them under the chassis or in the old can if they fit (he'll need to clean out the old guts from the can for the latter). If they are mounted underneath, he can leave the old can in place for looks. Antique Electronics Supply has some new multi-section can caps; look there maybe you'll get lucky. If not, do the above. |
Low ESR = good High Ripple Current = good ASC caps are film caps; film caps are always preferable to electrolytics. And they are huge. I use Solens in the power supply of my Supratek preamp (replacing electrolytics) and they are definitely an improvement over the stock e-lytics. You need lots of room, however, to replace an electrolytic with a film, and I don't think your piece has that kind of room. |
Thanks Ait That was the issue why the guy fixing it was taking so long. He could not find ones that fit into the can. These of course will not fit in the can. That is an issue to many. The look thing and height thing to go in the case. My amp is not in the case and I do not care what it looks like. So I understand they can be wired under or on top? An amp like yours which is nice looking is one thing. To me vintage amps (most of them) are ugly. So if holes need to be drilled or whatever so what. As long as it works. I guess something like this pic. http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=232384 |