I am going to finish off the crossover build permanent.
Any recomendations on what to mount parts? And hook up wire? Nothing crazy as I am going to spend a bit getting a pre-amp and amp and upgrading it.
Thanks |
I use .5-.75" MDF, zip ties and/or hot glue.
Drill holes though the MDF for the zip ties then use a router on the bottom to cut a .25" line between each set of holes so the board can sit flat. Or if you are mounting the crossovers externally, you can built a box out of red oak or another nice wood.
As for chassis wire, what are you using for speaker wire?
I normally use Neotech solid core, but may try Duelund next time. When using solid core, remember to twist or braid them. |
Dear Volleyguy,
Congratulations on getting ready to finish the crossovers. I plan on mounting my Duelund based network for the Klipsch KLF-20's external to the speaker cabinents on butcher block wood. I will solder the hookup wire to the speakers using silver based solder. I have some Kimber speaker wire on hand but I am still considering the Duelund silver hookup wire at $800.00. Speaker terminals will be Cardas. I am using the North Creek 8 guage inductors.
I look forward to other posters ideas and your listening impression with the"finished" product. Thank ypo for posting this topic. |
Thanks Guys
David $800 hook up wire! To me confusing I did not expect the improvement I got from Duelund caps but $800 wire I guess I can not wrap my head around that giving me bang for the buck? I will not spend anything like that on wire as I (think) I would rather get Duelund caps for an amp than hook up wire. Maybe it is me?
Anyone have feelings on wire $ compared to elsewhere? My gut says Amps yes caps yes tubes yes but wire??? |
Wire is an important part of the equation, but $800.00 seems substantially over-kill. Is this wire on the Dueland web site? |
I agree that wire is important.
I used Vampire internal speaker wire which was quite cost effective but who knows what the Duelund wire adds to the equation? |
The Duelund hookup wire is listed at Partsconnexion. The Duelund 0.5 wire is their least expensive type at $10.00 per foot. A question- many use special speaker cables. Should I be using speakers cables from each speaker driver to my external crossovers? Maybe this is the best approach? If I use speaker cables I will need 4 pair so I am looking at cables costing $200.00 each or less.
Which Vampire wire did you use, they have several types. Who did you buy from?
I have on hand Kimber PR speaker wire that may be a starting point.
Thanks to all who participate.
David Pritchard |
Hmmm I am going to have to try some of that Duelund hook up wire. I know I am going to one day replace my Linn speaker wire.
I still having trouble with this silver thing? Not sure why a few feet of silver hook up wire running though my copper caps would matter?
Could someone fill me in on speaker wire is it size or silk? What matters most? Any advice on this?
I am going Steen's advice though getting plastic out where possible. |
My Klipsch have the normal lamp cord gauge what guage is that? 16 or 18awg?
Do not want to go smaller. |
Also I have a in series inductor of .245mh in the tweeter circuit.
I know I hear you guys talk about Duelund resistors being a big bang for the buck improvement.
What about a in series inductor? Why would Klipsch use an inductor for the tweeter? Any help? Would it affect sound quality much?
Also Duelund has lowered their prices! and our Can $ is on the rise this is getting much better. |
Hi David,
I bought the Vampire wire from John at the Cable Company. Not the most expensive as I recall but lots of copper!
I have separate runs from the speaker terminals to:-
The woofer
The Mid Duelund Capacitor and then the Mid/Woofer
The Tweeter Duelund Capacitor and then the Tweeter
Why not try the Kimber you have on hand as a start or talk to John at the Cable Company. He is very knowledgeable and generally prefers a Litz-type wire but this requires a solder bath which is expensive.
Good luck. |
For inductors, check out Alpha Core/Goertz. |
We need some guys who have tried plastic free. Dgarretson can you come in comment?
If you believe the Duelund story it is the oil impregnated cotton wrapped wire one wants. I have said it before (and taken a ribbing) I think getting the plastic out to be big.
Getting the static off the wire makes sense to me and cotton does not get a static build up like plastic.
I am getting Duelund wire for sure just Copper or Silver and I think copper. |
Dear Volleyguy and Friends,
Concerning the inductor question. At Audio Karma in tne Klipsch Forum there is a great thread about upgrading the Klipsch crossovers started by SET-12. In the Klipsch Forte, he tried both the Alpha Core and the North Creek inductors. He preferred the North Creek 8 guage. He found it to be a major improvement in bass manage ment. He did think the tweeter is improved in the Forte in upgrading that inductor to a North Creek 8 guage.
I have the North Creek inductors inhand-custom wound but delivered in 10 days. I am still waiting for Duelund to send the caps for the midrange and tweeter, and the tweeter resistor.
Yes the most practible approach for me is to use the Kimber PR for my hook up wire-but. I do wish I could hear someone who has tried the Duelund 0.5 silver wire against other wires. I have had 3 Audiogonners E-mail me to tell me they had used Duelund wire and were happy-but no comparison reports. It was mentioned that great care has to be taken to get the impregnating oil off the wire when sodering the wire.
I will try to see if Partsconnexion can give me some ideas on hook up wire. They were very helpful in my Duelund order. Maybe Duelund for the mid and tweeter and ordinary wire for the bass.
Lastly I am thinking that silver may be better long term than copper as when silver oxidizes it does not degrade the sound- so I am told.
David Pritchard |
Hope you get some answers David. I too am waiting on the Silver wire comparisons otherwise I am going to order copper.
Please post your Duelund cap impressions!
8 guage would sure lower resistance!
For me I find the higher the freq the more the need for quality. If I did want to try Silver I would start in the tweeter. If you notice no difference I doubt you would in the mids. |
I use AudioQuest Dragon cables for hookup wire so the Duelund wire is in the same ball park. I use a 4ft pair and a 5ft pair of dragon cables that sold for about $300 a foot. |
Talked to partsconnexion today and am just getting Duelund copper 14.5 guage (no plastic)
Wire one of the most controversial audio topics of all time!
I think I am coming from 18 guage. (internal speaker wire) |
Congratulations on the Duelund wire purchase. How many feet will you be using? For my system of 4 drivers per speaker, I will need a total of about 84 feet. I have had one person suggest soldering the hook up wire to the speakers and also solder at the crossover connection. That makes sense to me.
Did Partsconnexion give you any info on the Duelund wire? Michael and Chris were quite helpful when I placed my capacitor order.
I look forward to your experience with the more complete Duelund sound.
David Pritchard |
I "hope" to notice a difference. I was a mid fi store today just checking on some connections etc and think I am going to hard wire as well. Klipsch used to use some pretty crappy parts like spades connection strips etc. Paul Klipsch of course is famous for saying anything more than lamp cord for speaker wire is b*llshit! I do not agree with that statement and have noticed an improvement going to heavier gauge but have never used expensive wire. My linn speakers came with $1k of Linn tri-wire and like I said on here before it ran through a $2 tweeter cap and to me that is b*llshit! I am not going crazy on wire and hope to notice an improvement but really am not holding my breath somewhat heavier guage and no plastic.
If someone said to me a choice of $ on wire or Duelund caps it would take .2 seconds to decide that! |
I'm rebuilding a set of Infinity RSIIb speakers with external crossovers and I'm using Cardas Copper Litz wire (Teflon insulation), 17.5 gauge on the tweeters, 15.5 gauge on the mids, and 11.5 gauge on the woofers. There are a total of 8 drivers, ten inductors, nine caps and four resistors per speaker. A little harder to work with but Litz wire is said to provide better transfer of high frequencies, and since every strand is individually coated with lacquer, it will never corrode. Will be a big step up over the original wire, which is actually Monster cable that had started to turn green from oxidation (it says "Wired with Monster Cable" right on the speaker). I thought about the Duelund wire but the oiled cotton insulation turned me off - it sounds a bit messy to me, especially since the wire will be outside the speakers due to my external crossover.
There are some who feel that there are maximum gauges for each level of driver, i.e. don't use too big of a gauge on a tweeter or you will lose some of the detail.
My speaker cables are Zu Ibis, pricey but very, very detailed. |
Ait,
Let us know how that Cardas Litz works out for you. Serguei, at Stealth Audio, is also a strong proponent of litz wire. In a good geometry, litz has many advantages versus other conductor types. Sounds like you're going to be a happy guy, especially after getting rid of the Monster stuff. |
Ait the Duelund cotton concerned you? Do you mean from a short point of view?
Interesting on the tweeter wire I have always wondered that if lighter wire for delicate signal but have no proof.
I am only using Duelund wire out of respect. The company who gave me the most bang for the buck improvement (new) ever and tonal realism I did not know possible from their caps is getting my $'s.
I wish Frederik would come back on and say what to do? Silver for tweeters and copper or whatever for woofer but I doubt he will do that?
When looking at connectors at mid fi store I did hear their top stereo and Holy Crap am I getting spoiled! (it was like black and white after having colour) I have to drive about an hour to hear real expensive stuff and am going to do it. Not trying to brag but I think my speakers will SMOKE anything they have! |
Volleyguy,
Load up your speakers in a van or truck and take them into the dealers for comparison. That sounds like fun. |
Volley, the idea of oil-soaked cotton resting on my hardwood floors or touching the exterior of my crossover/speaker cabinets just didn't sound too good to me, and I had visions of the oil getting on everything as I hooked the crossovers up to the speakers. Maybe that doesn't happen, but that's what bothered me. I'm sure the wire sounds great. |
Just to clarify, the cable is "baked" for several days.
It's not "oily" when the customer receives it. |
I used the 14ga to wire the woofers when I rebuilt the crossovers on my Meadowlark Kestrels.
It is massive, very stiff stuff that reminds me of the old time copper wire people used to wire houses with back in the days of glass fuses. Not at all easy to snake into tight places.
But it sure sounds good - bass is nice, taut and crisp. |
Ait do you really think Duelund (or anyone) could sell a wire that had oil dripping out of it??? Sounds kind of dangerous!
Frederik what is "baked" and what does it mean from an audio point of view?
Frederik you did not say on the which metal for wire? or which metal where?
You have been very modest all along. I remember Burt telling me that the difference from VSF to CAST would not be a great as vintage to VSF. Letting me know of law of diminishing returns from an already great cap. It is refreshing in this business!
To be honest it was someone on this site who recommended your VSF caps and I thought I would try one thinking I was throwing my money away. I was shocked!
Then again to be honest the CAST I expected to not even hear the difference. (from VSF or what scared me be not as good) Shocked again!
Wire? If I hear a differnce of crossover wire short amounts really I'll say it again, I'll be shocked!
Sherod I have offered Arthur from highend audio to come hear these speakers. I said to him if Klipschorns are Class C upper (just down from Class B) these are no comparison! I said I would let him decide how far up the ranking they would go. Arthur is from Canada about an hour from where I live but lives in the Florida now. I am not saying they are the best for everyone but if one likes Klipsch (for what they can do) like Arthur does these are clearly a massive improvement. |
Ckorody I assume you mean Duelund wire? That seems to be Duelund's forte basically a vintage idea done to modern specs and of course no plastic.
I am very glad to hear the wire sounds (assuming you mean Duelund) good though. I do not have tight spaces to worry about.
It is amazing to hear how many people are rebuilding crossovers. Didn't we used to just buy new speakers? Is this a growing trend on the importantce and cost effectiveness of crossover rebuilds?
Big market for you Duelund as there are a ton of well built speakers with crappy internal parts! |
Volleyguy,
Baked means that the oil impregnation happens under heat, so the cable is dry to the touch. |
So the oil polymerizes? Like a drying oil (e.g. linseed)? Or is it more like a wax that solidifies on cooling?
How is the soldering performance? Does the cotton jacket burn at all from the heat?
No intention of dissing the Duelund wire, just curious. |
Volley - yes I mean Duelund wire.
I cut some cover back to solder - frays a bit - drop of silicon conformal coating would probably fix it right up but it would be nice if Mr Duelund could advise us as the wire is very different from anything else out there except some very light gauge cotton dielectric stuff |
I"ve had no problems with the Duelund 2.0 silver wire. I used a razor and cut around the outside silk jacket. Once this is done I pulled it off which reveals the silver annealed wire. The silver will have an orange look to it from the oil which must be cleaned before you solder. I use a Dremel tool with a brass brush on it. This gets the oil residue off and polishes the wire at the same time.
I cut a piece cotton to put over the bare wire and keep this in place with a non static shrink wrap. Remember no plastic.
This has worked great for me.
When using the Duelund components throughout the crossover the Duelund wire makes more sense.
I've used their VSF Cu caps, Cast CU caps, Cast Ag caps, Cast inductors, and the Duelund resistors and like the Duelund wire mated with them. Of course this is my opinion but if the wire is made in the same fashion as the crossover components then why not use it? |
Irish65
You are just the guy I need to talk too!
Is it copper wire with copper capacitors. I just can not see the need for a short bit of Silver wire? I have many other areas that need $ in my system, I would think before Silver wire.
Now since I will never likely hear a Silver CAST capacitor can you describe it to us?
Thanks |
Volleyguy,
I use the 2.0 silver wire. Some silver wire that I have used the bass seems to go south for the winter. With the Duelund wire (silver) I did not have this problem. The best way to describe it is to say everything just sounded right.
Meaning it has an organic and naturalness to it that is additive.
If the cost is an issue then I would suggest you start at the frequencies that your ears are most sensitive. My are the higher frequencies so if cost were a concern I would use the Duelund wire on the tweeter first. Other it may be the midrange.
I agree with your assessment of the VSf compared to the Cast. It really is a big difference but at double the price. The silver Cast is significantly more but to me it is worth it. The clarity is like nothing I ever heard before. It seems to put flesh on the images if that makes sense to you.
My advice is do not listen to them if you do not plan to spend that kind of money. You will no doubt get bit and the only anti venom is to pony up the cash and purchase them. |
Irish65 Yes the CAST vs. VSF is a big difference at double the price but the Silver is 5x CAST copper's price! That is a BIG difference! That is wayyyyy out of my league but it is very nice to hear that at least there is something for the 5x $. (for the well heeled or just addicted!)
Did you compare the Silver 2.0 to the copper wire by Duelund? Likely not if you use 2.0.
Do you use Duelund speaker cable?
Tried the caps in electronics?
Thanks |
Volleyguy,
For me the additional cost was well worth the price of admission going to the Cast Silver capacitors. I tried the VSF first a few years ago then compared them to the Cast copper, then took the jump to the Cast Silver. Absolutely no regrets.
I did not compare the Duelund CU wire to the Duelund 2.0 Ag wire. I just know what I like and the Duelund 2.0 scratched the itch I had.
I do use the Duelund 2.0 for speaker wiring also. It is the same wire as the hook up wire.
If you are looking to have the Duelund speaker wire to tilt your system to your liking it will not do that. It is a cable that just gets out of the way which to me is what a speaker cable is suppose to do. Get everything else right in your system first then put in the Duelund wire.
I have spent a significant amount of money playing around with different caps in the crossover. For me going entirely Duelund works best.
I really like the North Creek inductors (8 awg) but have found the Duelund to reveal more info in the lower frequencies than the North Creek. The North Creek inductors are my second choice.
I am working on modding my source. I will be comparing Duelund caps (630v) to Clarity MR, V- caps, Mundorf Silver/gold, and Modwright teflon caps. I have had the other caps on hand for a few months and need to make time to get that project started. |
Irish65
Please keep us posted on your electronics cap test. I am like I said finding the right amp and then will start the rebuild. You are comparing many of the best and would really like to hear what you find out.
I am not looking for Duelund to do any tilting (with Silver) just do not want the tilt from Silver that I got from Mundorf SIO. (just not to my liking that upward tilt) I prefer that Duelund natural sound. Copper wire is in my budget but might try a small amount of Silver out of curiousity. Then it will become like the CAST caps leaving me wanting more!
Your assessment on CAST to VSF. I found the CAST wayyyy quieter and with that much bigger size wayyyy more dynamic. I am curious if that dynamics carries over into coupling caps? I do find in the CAST to be somewhat more demanding though, they do not smooth out any upstream problems. The VSF resonate more with smoothing and smearing, but I much prefer CAST.
Since I have one of each cap in series where would you put the CAST first or last?
I have heard many say you get much of the benefit of the better cap, meaning a VSF and CAST is not half way between but closer to CAST? True? |
Irish65
The North Creek inductors how do they compare to most stock inductors?
When I placed my Duelund order I did not order inductors. I was unsure if they would be worth it. If I remember reading right in Steens writing's him saying an inductor MUST have low DCR. With this being the case would not North Creeks 8 guage be in a league of it's own? North Creek uses no plastics correct?
I might look at getting North Creek maybe more in my price range. How do they compare? I know you said second favourite to Duelund. Is that Duelund WPIO or the CAST inductor? North Creek is much cheaper! With the parts you have tried you are putting them in elite company. What would be the difference in Duelund? The Silk instead of varnish? |
Volleyguy,
The North Creek inductors I like very much. I like them best on the bottom end because they reveal more info than other inductors. This includes Mundorf, Solen, and Alpha-core. You will not be dissapointed with them.
The North Creek inductors do have a low DCR but so do the Duelunds. I do not know what it is but I have compared the North Creek to the Duelunds and prefer the Duelunds. I use the Cast inductors not their WPIO.
The difference between the North Creek and Duelund is like going from a VSF cap to a Cast cap.
If you were to use both because of cost use the North Creek for thr bottom end (larger inductor with lower cost compared to Duelund) and use Duelund for the smaller values. |
Thanks a ton Irish65.
I have a parallel inductor on the tweeter circuit. Do these make much difference?
I am still kicking myself for not ordering Duelund inductors when I put in my order. (much lower prices then) The problem with these kind of parts is they are of course non returnable. This is the reason I started this thread I could not find non corporate info on caps at least not as detailed as I was looking. Some tech guys even said all caps were the same as long as they measured right? Another tech said ALL new caps would be better than your old ones. Boy did I find that NOT to be the case.
The cheap caps were way worse then the original foil ones the Mundorfs were better, but still not as good in the midrange as orginals and all were sold at a fraction of what I had in them. (exept one 2.2 Mundorf Silver in Oil if someone wants it)
The "expensive" Duelund's ended up being the cheapest! I still have and love 'em! They were the only ones better in every way. (than original foils)
This is the reason I still have the old inductors. I really do not like buying and losing money. Since you said the North Creeks were good I have checked and many do like them and often a lot! (some of those are Duelund users as well at least the caps)
If I take your discription right like going from VSF to CAST that to me means really, really good to something I did not know possible.
Thanks again |
Volleyguy,
I will say this. If you purchased the North Creek inductors you will not feel that you are missing anything. The 8 awg are fairly large inductors. Compared to the other brands of inductors I have already mentioned the North Creek's dwarf the others. The Duelund's are about the same size (Cast).
It is funny how some say they make a difference and others who say they do not. That is what led me on this journey I took. I wanted to know for myself. I purchased numerous caps and inductors and listened for myself. The upside is now I know what works best for me. The downside is I spent a significant amount of money to determine this. |
I would not bother if it's in parallel with your tweeter.
The biggest gains are to be had in series with your mid and woofer. |
I did call North Creek today. They have not called back. I have been checking into impressions of their product.
Irish65 why do you think the Duelund is better? Silk? Oil? lower resonance?
Has anyone had problems with Audigon lately? |
Irish65
Inductors do they work as North Creek says the lower the DCR the better? I keep reading some say not? |
Whatever speaker crossover part you change out you need to put some QuickSilver Gold contact enhancer on them. I put some of this on all crossover parts and hook-up wires from my crossover to my speaker drivers. I can't believe how good my old Sansui sp-5500's sound now! This has to be the best upgrade you can do to your speakers! |
Just a heads up, Madisound finally lowered their prices on Claritycap MR's. I made a large purchase today. :) |
Face, have you heard the standard Mundorf Supremes in comparison to the Claritycap MRs? The Mundorfs have the same type of series construction, and an aluminum case to control resonance - I would think they might have a similar sound. I really like the sound of the Mundorfs... |
I have a pair of Mundorf S/O here and IMO they don't hold a candle to MR's in transparency, dynamics, and imaging. |
Interesting, I may have to try them some day in my Infinities. Thanks. |
Talked to North Creek on the phone about inductors.
Hysteresis
The thing that surprised me most was they said most people talked about improved midrange with a new woofer inductor.
Hmmm
Hysteresis
I feel I have compression right below mid freq I am very curios to see if this is gone with either a 10 or 8 guage inductor? |
