Salectric,
Boy that is a great question and a little difficult to answer in some ways. The refinement part is easy. Yes, the Jupiters are more refined and solid sounding if you will. Smooth and tidy!
As far as air, I cannot say the Jupiters have more air. At least not at this point. |
1markr
You are right. These Jupiter caps sound good right away. Good, not great, but very, very good. I found only 50 hours really begins to show these puppies off. |
Grannyring, do the Jupiters have more high frequency refinement and air than the Duelund CAST? To my ears that is the one area where the CAST fall short. |
Bill, how long do you think it took for the Jupiter caps to settle in? I found they sound pretty darn good after just a few hours in my amp. When do they hit their stride? |
More on order for my digital front end now! |
Tas let us know the results!
Well the Jupiter copper caps have settled in and oh my they are first rate. Solidity and refinement with no part of the music spectrum out of balance. Top to bottom pitch perfect coherency and tone. Based on my knowledge with extensive use of the Duelund CAST caps in various pieces of gear and the resulting change (electronics)......I would say the following is the one area of of main difference between these two caps.
The Duelund CAST caps emphasize the mids just a tad over the rest of the spectrum. The new Jupiter caps do not. They play music more even handed top to bottom in my estimation. Some will feel the CAST are more revealing or resolute, but it may just be the tad bit of midrange boost.
One would have to hear the Jupiter caps to understand the difference. My comments are based on electronics, not speakers. The Jupiter caps are not available in values over 1uf right now.
The CAST and Jupiter caps are two great choices for sure. I don't feel choosing one way or the other in electronics leaves much room for buyers remorse or opportunity cost. |
Well, my package of Duelund VSF Black, Duelund CAST resistors and Jantzen Audio Superior Z Caps FINALLY arrived. Ordered on January 15th and arrived last week! That should give everyone some idea about how busy Duelund have become.
I'm re-wiring using Neotech 6N copper/teflon as well. I'm most of the way through rewiring and rebuilding crossovers in the first speaker and - aside from the fact that I'm really slow - all seems to be going well.
Charles1dad - I've said it before and I'll say it again, you are HUGELY fortunate you bought the Total Eclipse V2. The crossover and wiring in my speaker is all kinds of tricky to work with.Thank heavens I bought the VSF Black instead of the CAST caps for the tweeter - even they were really difficult to tuck into the Tweeter/mid compartment.
I should have my first speaker finished by tomorrow sometime. I'm re-checking everything around 20 times but still live in mortal fear that I'll reverse wire something. So far so good.
Grannyring - I just don't know how you can revisit this kind of thing when you've done it once. Once this is finished, all being well, I hope to never open these things up again!
Tas |
Bill great description of the CAST caps. They remove all kinds of noise while giving you the musicality with out sounding lean or bleached. |
Bill,
That is very good news. For those who find the Duelund CAST too expensive the Jupiter caps would be a wonderful alternative to improving their sound. The results I achieved with the CAST should be available to more music lovers.
Charles, |
For those of you interested in the new Jupiter copper caps. Thus far my listening proves out they have the same noise free personality of the Duelund CAST. They must build these like the CAST in some way as they are well damped and seem to remove noise like the Duelund CAST.
They are beautiful sounding with no weakness I can detect as yet. |
Sorry the link
http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=5784 |
On Jeff's place he has the same style autotransformer as I do.
I have thought for a long time this would be a weak link. Very thin gauge wire. On here a long time ago I asked Frederik about building autotransformers and glad to see he has!
On this site there is some flack about the price and no doubt at $4500 U.S. each for the copper ones...
Ordered direct as no doubt it will be a fairly small market to say the least. Nevertheless I am glad Frederik is doing this as removing weakness is part of this hobby even if it is not affordable. (to me anyway)
Now the original focus of this thread was parts for the dollar. I can not imagine that )and I bet the autotransformer are better) that the bang for the buck is anywhere near replacing an entire crossover and all coupling caps in the amp for likely the same money...
There has been good advice on here where to start for most bang for the buck... (tweeter, phono and line stage caps always seem top of the list) |
Salectric
Sorry that is the parallel tweeter inductor and is a resonance trap? Not exactly sure what that means?
Jwm
I hope you do not lose it in a fit of shaking, but no...
You just can not change the DCR in a circuit without radically changing the sound. The Duelund is 12 gauge the vintage is very thin but is very tightly wrapped in wax paper. So you can not automatically put in a Duelund part and keep Jwm from shaking!
The sound is much hotter sharper. For anyone who does not know what they are doing (maybe me) do not change the resistance in the circuit of one driver or you will change the sound and maybe/likely not for the better.
I am uncertain how much is resistance (thin wire) and how much is wax? I suspect wax slows the sound down and the highs even more... Makes it dull?
I like most do not like to waste money on parts. All of the Duelund parts I have got have been great except this one and maybe the round solid copper wire. (this one is not a fault maybe of the part but the application)
I am unsure as to what the goal is on parallel tweeter parts? (I am sure not to add noise?)
This post is just trying to get anyone who reads this to save some money maybe or be careful on changing parts that change the DCR. |
I'm shaking violently please like the Duelunds better. |
Volleyguy, did you mean to say the tweeter inductor is in series with the tweeter? That would be odd since the choke will roll off the highs. The tweeter choke should be in a shunt position, i.e. after a series capacitor and in parallel with the tweeter. The two reactive components---a series cap and shunt choke---will give a 2d order crossover. For a 3rd order, there would be three reactive components---the series cap, the shunt choke, and a second cap located after the choke and again in series with the tweeter. |
I have re started the Duelund vs. vintage tweeter in series inductor test.
Vintage is a wire wound inductor wrapped actually quite tight in wax Duelund is a VSF and in past tests vintage won leaving this as my lonely Duelund part.
The biggest difference is 12 gauge foil vs. very thin gauge wire.
In the past the test was more on digital as that was before the CAST caps went in phono stage. One more try...
Now thinking logically I never should have got the VSF as it was not much of a change like CAST could have been (in noise reduction) but I did not know as this was in series inductor... |
I do realize comparisons will be limited with one amp, but it is a decent way to start. |
I have one of my monoblock amps with the Jupiter copper caps in place. The amp uses two size coupling caps .47uf and a .10 uf in parallel. The other amp has Audio Note Copper caps. I will compare both over the next couple of weeks. If the Jupiters win, then I will buy caps for the other amp. First time I have tried it this way...one amp first, then the other.
Thus far the Jupiters sound more refined and more natural. Voices are smoother with the Jupiters.
My amps are Thor TPA 30's. |
I know a couple of builders who LOVE the new Jupiter caps and have nothing but praise for them. I am been too busy of late to install mine and hope to do it this weekend in my Dude. |
Bill,
That was funny and people crack me up when they resort to that phrase. These latest Jupiter capacitors could be fabulous and some may prefer them to the Duelund CAST. But "broken" is too much hyperbole for me. How about saying another superb cap and legitimate alternative.
Charles, |
They make the Duelund's sound broken!
Could not resist saying that. No idea how they sound as I have not put them in my gear as yet. I will soon.....this weekend most likely and let you know. |
Any previews on how they sound even not broken in as yet? Im deceiding if they are worth a shot ordering over cutft/ftf or duelunds which i am used to and do like a whole lot. |
Ya, got mine from both Jupiter and Sonicraft. SC has a 20% off sale right now. They have them in stock and just not on the site as yet. |
Anyone got their hands on the new Jupiter copper HT. Sonicraft lists them and some audiocircle members report where that they were obtained directly from jupiter condensers but still not listed on their website. |
Too funny Roxy!
That is how the whole thing got started I really thought I was throwing money away on my first VSF cap that someone recommended on this thread... After that one part led to another and another and another but at least I have lost weight! |
Volleyguy1,
You were probably thinking that you wanted to have money left over for groceries! They are expensive for mere mortals. I would have loved them in my DAC too. |
I see Duelund is doing autotransformers from the Jeff's Place website. For us that have them in the crossover this is big news! My speakers use similiar design to Westminster Royal's. I have been running out of parts to replace! With the exception of replacing some VSF with CAST or Silver which is just not happening here.
My current autoformer is a wax paper design which my guess can only be bettered by better resonance control of the CAST. There was much I liked about the VSF tweeter inductor but ultimately was too noisy. My only lonely Duelund part that sits in the closet. One thing I hope this thread does is avoids missteps for others, I wish I bought a CAST tweeter inductor wonder what was I thinking?... |
Has anyone here compared a familiar fully broken in cap to one that was the same and identical and then cryo'd a couple of times? The performance gain in cryo'd parts is pretty amazing. Caps, resistors, diodes, transformers, outputs and even chassis parts take a jump up in sound quality. Avoid this treatment on mains caps. All this started with some Hitachi metallized and Orange Drop film and foils in bypass across the mains caps. I now have parts run at least twice some several times more. The benefit is permanent unless you melt it down. Drivers maybe next. Tom |
I bought an Audio Note DAC 2.1 from Audio Note Kits about 5 months ago. I had it assembled (immaculately) by Digital Pete, who is officially sanctioned by Audio Note Kits to assemble their kits. I asked him if he could use the lower end Duelunds as the coupling caps, and he did so for an additional $400.00. I have to say to anyone who may have just added a Duelund cap to any component...be patient! It sounded good right away, and better in 2 weeks, but it is only after a little less than 5 months that I am finally hearing what they do when they are broken in. They are so natural sounding, and so worth the money.
|
Jupiters have been beta tested by folks who know Duelund and they say the Jupiter's are as good or even a tad better :-) |
The Duelund RS have just been stated as a pre-order at PCX. Price is competitive though still cost more than the jupiters.
Is there any way that is would be a worst bet as still untested. |
Ooh - very good.
My next effort could be to start swapping caps in my DAC and pre-amp. These could be the answer for me |
Thanks Rick I am on it! Have some coming in for my dac first. |
The Copper foil wax paper Jupiter caps are now available. They will be at the dealers within days. Values from .001 to 1uf at 600V. Round case, pure silver leads. These MAYBE the new reference. Not cheap but a lot less than Dueland. A .22uf is $60. The 100V speaker caps (1uf and up) will be available later this year. I will have some preliminary listening feedback next week for you guys. |
Granny, Roxy, you make the difficult, easy.
Thanks guys |
I used Neotech to rewire some Spendors on the bass driver, and that was never mentioned to me. I don't unerstand how this bulk high purity wire could be directional. If it was me, I wouldn't sweat it. |
Hi Tas
No the wire is not directional. Hook it up and go! |
Hi all
I've received my Parts Connection shipment of Neotech wire for my internal re-wiring of my Coincident Total Eclipses but the first - and hopefully only - issue I have is the fact that the 6N teflon copper UPOCC (20AWG, 16AWG and 12AWG) I've bought is unidirectional. Fair enough but it isn't labelled in any way that I can see. Just bare red teflon.
In my situation, how would you work out which way to run the wire? Please don't say "by listening to it"? That'll just send me to an asylum! lol I cannot, in my wildest dreams, imagine re-wiring these speakers more than once just to compare results.
I've thought about writing to Parts connection but.....why on earth wouldn't they label this stuff if it was unidirectional?!
Love to hear people's thoughts on this!
Cheers, Tas |
Flat bottom caps such as the Duelund and Jupiter can be enhanced even further when mounted and secured on Audio Points .2's and APCD2's. I acquired a few years ago Clarity Cap DTAC caps that have a center taped bobbin and bolted these in my outboard crossovers. Between the caps and the tone wood I placed the coupling discs and 1.0 points and drew the capacitor down and secured thru the bottom bobbin hole. When you adjust the tension of the caps to the coupling points you can affect their apparent speed. I had these caps cryo'd several times and cut flying leads of 12 gauge copper foil. I performed the same surface mounting to the inductors as well. I clamped these from the top side with hard wood and secured with brass hardware. All devices are hard mounted and direct coupled no soft materials to impede energy transfer. Tom.. Star Sound Technologies. |
Just an FYI to all. I have ended up with Jupiter Flat Stacked caps in my speaker on the mids and tweeter. After extensive break in they surpassed the Mundorf SIO to my ears. They are more full bodied sounding than the Mundorf and that ultimately won me over. The Jupiters can sound a tad dull at first, but after break in they open up nicely.
Still waiting on the new Jupiter caps for my dac! |
Still working on the crossovers and bi-amplification. Posted some photos and comments in my system's tread. |
Jupiter says one month away from intro. I spoke with them yesterday. |
Is there any updates on the Jupiter copper foil caps to try.
Having tried the duelund cast, they are as good as it gets, neutral and doesnt highlight the.sound in any.way and just does things very well.
The CUTFs certainly do seem to let a tad of warm through the midrange, each having their strengths, the TFTFs still give that drive to the music like no other caps, no even the CUTFs or Casts.
Overall, if a balance can be matched with the CUTFs and TFTf, it can make a mighty fine sound with a touch of Duelunds to just bind the whole picture everything together.
I did have some success mating the mundorf sio bypassed with the TFTF which was very nice too and need more testing. I was thinking a CUTF bypassed with the TFTF might hit the spot. |
Tasouli,
You're right I'd forgotten that. |
Hi Charles and Bill
Charles - you may have forgotten but we had already spoken about the location of my crossovers - my speakers being bi-wired meant that the crossover components were in 2 locations. The first where you mentioned and the other in the mid/tweeter enclosure. Much harder to work on than your speakers.
Bill - fantastic to hear from you. I've already secured some WBT 5% solder and all is ready for the transplant. I'll definitely be keeping in touch.
Very excited over here. |
Tas, please let us know when your mod is complete. Also, feel free to email me with any questions if you run into some confusion along the way.
Be sure to use a good solder. WBT with 4% silver is one good choice. Be sure to tin or coat any exposed copper wire to prevent oxidation and soumd degregation over time.
I have one more mod in mind for my speakers. I will update you on the results shortly. |
Tas,
You are correct the Total Eclipse has a simpler X over than the Total Victoty III of Grannyring. You just remove the lower woofer and will find the tweeter cap(solen) mounted on the floor of the speaker near the coil inductor. I have the Total Eclipse II version and assume your xover is very similar.
Charles, |
Grannyring
I MARVEL (notice capitol letters! lol) at your desire to keep going back to the furnace to see if there's anything else you can try.
In an earlier post you mention how hard it was to work inside your speakers, mine are simpler than yours (Total Eclipses) and I still felt like a was a brain surgeon at times! I congratulate you on your persistence in order to gain knowledge and a musical edge.
No updates my end re my crossover components. Still waiting for Duelund to do their thing before I get the total delivery. I anticipate I'll be dancing and singing like the rest of you about what an improvement they've made in around a month - wishful thinking!!!
Must be something someone else can write. This thread has gone quiet but it remains one of the most fascinating audio blogs I've read in years.
Cheers everyone, Tas |
Just an update on the importance of caps used in parallel positions in a crossover. Another way to say this are capacitors used as part of a Zobel network. Some suggest they are not as important and go so far as to say they not important at all since they are not part of the signal path. Wrong! Double wrong!
I have used three different brands of capacitors on the mid drivers in my Coincident Total Victory III speakers. Each one had an immediate impact on the sound quality. Not one of them sounded the same. The last and final one I used are Mundorf SIO caps bypassed with a modified Wima .15uf value. These are the best by a wide margin. Just outstanding!
They replaced Jupiter HT flat stacked with no bypass cap on it. The Mundorf/Wima combo is better in every way imaginable. So detailed and smooth. Nice air and natural tone. These are staying for sure.
Those of you with Zobel networks in your speakers go ahead and upgrade the resistors and caps and be rewarded with substantial sound quality improvement.
The combo of Mundorf SIO bypassed with modified Wima caps from Ric Schultz is very good indeed. Very good. |
I now have Mundorf Supreme 3.3uf caps and Ric Schultz's modified Wima .33uf caps as a bypass combos on the computer grade caps in my preamp's power supply and the result is fantastic!
One can hear the difference in caps used in bypass positions quite clearly. The above combo is very good in my preamp. I tried some older Audience caps for bypassing and did not like them at all. |
