I have not been a member for a very long time, and joined Agon to discuss audio with others in my hobby. Seems to me that almost every post devolves into a hijacked negative argument between a few members that seem to think it's their platform to preach their opinions to any who would listen, and any dissent to what they have to say is met with ridicule/insults, and just downright rudeness.
There will always be differences in opinion, BUT, we can be civilized in how we disagree.
There is already too much negativity in the world. Is it not possible to insulate that from our hobby in this forum, or is this what we have become? Hiding behind our keyboards and not having the courtesy to treat our fellow audio lovers with decency, open-mindedness, and RESPECT !
I think the incivility creeps into most threads by a few things working against all of us.
First, there is the blog mindset that seems to desensitize normal discourse. My test is whether I would literally say that post to a group of contributors over a beer. If it seems too edgy or offensive (that is, someone visibly becomes uncomfortable, walks out or tosses their drink in my face), then I try to rephrase it. I try to remind myself of that when I write a post.
Second, we often talk about audio gadgets that we care about, because of ego, expense, and/or time invested in the hobby. Sometimes I forget that folks care about their gear as much as I do. Perspective via self-reflection is always heathy before clicking that “post your response” button.
Third, sometimes written communication simply fails. That’s hard to get around. But it happens.
Actually, I think a lot of the negativity comes from positivity ... the need to help your fellow man ........... avoid being ripped off or wasting hard-earned money that could be put to quantified enjoyment elsewhere. The other side is that the other side wants to share their joy. So in a way, the intentions of both sides of these arguments are positive. It's all how you look at it.
I too have rode through Southern France, ah, but I'm far too lazy to pedal. I must have an engine in my bike!!! LOL I have also road the Canyon du Verdon on my Harley. What a glorious ride indeed.
Southern France is gorgeous. My wife and I road tripped through Provence many years ago, before kids. We did a little climbing in the Verdon gorge and in the Calanques, by Cassis. What a glorious part of the planet.
I also like to ride pedal bikes (push bikes, for you Brits), however my rides are shorter, in the woods and involve dropping off of 5 meter ramps, clearing 3 meter gaps and other such nonsense. I think if I rode bikes like you, I could get my wife to join me, though it wouldn’t be the balm to my ADD that enduro style mountain biking is.
@geoffkait the German form of William is Wilhelm. Close..
Ah, now I see: it is motorbikes. My other passion is bicycles, and bicyle touring in particular. With my wife I rode from the north of France to the south of France last summer, camping in a little tent on the way.
@boxer12 Thanks. Bikes are my other passion. Winter is for audio, summer is for bikes !!
I have only had the Manley in play for a bit over a week now, so it's still settling in, but each day I find it a little more rewarding. I'm also still getting familiar with the adjustability of the unit as well. It'll take me a while to get totally comfortable with the change, but so far so good. I'm going to see about eliminating my ARC LS27 from the system later on today. The Manley has a single line stage in/out. Unfortunately all IC's I have that are long enough to reach my power amps are balanced. The Manley is strictly single ended. Steven at Audio Sensibility has been kind enough to let me borrow a pair of his single ended Signature OCC Silver's to see if I like the Manley as a "stand alone" unit, so I'm off to his house this morning to pick them up. I'll keep you posted. Thanks for asking
Geoff, you obviously do not know German, or not enough: my name is not German. As for your comments about Germany, let me quote them as I think they speak for themselves: '
I obviously should have mentioned Germany in the same breath as Russia
when it comes to propaganda and brainwashing.'
willemj Geoff, I am not German (my grandfather sailed in convoys on the Atlantic and landed in Normandy delivering ammo on the beach while my father was in a labour camp). But what is the point of such xenophobic remarks? Modern Germany is a perfectly decent country.
I never said Germany wasn’t a decent country today. By the way, I used to work with a group of submariners. Ironic, no? It’s also ironic I have the English name, and you the German name. Run silent, run deep. 😁
Paul McGowan of PS Audio records a video daily where he answers an audio question sent in by audiophiles. In watching many of these it is interesting to see how Paul, who has been designing fine gear for decades, has allowed his ears to inform new thinking about basic approaches to circuit design.
In one particular video when tubes were being discussed, he admits that although admiring the virtues of tubes, he was a SS designer and as such didn't employ them. Enter, Bascom H. King. In his interactions with Paul, he convinced Paul to utilize tubes in his BHK amps and preamps. Paul admitted in the video that it was the right approach and contributes to the excellent sonics of the BHK gear.
That's an audio designer that I want to listen to. He allowed himself to be taken to a new place in the design process even though it didn't fit his established paradigm.
@geoffkait "Furthermore, even experts in a given field disagree." Totally TRUE. In reading about the similar design goals that disparate designers have, it is intriguing how many totally different approaches these various designers employ to get to the same end goal of producing components that are as truthful to the music as possible.
The problem in a nutshell is that one man’s fact is another man’s opinion. A recent post stated, ”only quite facts.” Which I (very tactfully, of course) mocked. When two or more people agree on whether some fact is TRUE it doesn’t necessarily mean it is TRUE. That’s why there is such a thing as Appeal to Authority. Claiming to be an authority or claiming to quite a 100% reliable source doesn’t constitute a valid argument. If it did constitute a valid argument, all anyone would have to say to win ANY argument is, “I’m an expert on the subject so I must be right.” Even when the person actually IS an expert in the field, which he may or may not be. I wouldn’t think of impugning anyone’s motives for saying something or another. Furthermore, even experts in a given field disagree. Hel-loo!
@willemj I agree. I like to read about facts here that inform me about audio equipment. I do also, however, value the opinion of most who post here. In my case, that is the main reason I come here.
I have a reputation with my extended family for being the "researcher". I am known by them to be the one who will read review after review, both professional and user reviews to help inform me on an upcoming purchase. I'm not talking here about audio but of auto tires, hairdryers, etc. etc.
I have rarely after investing the time to do so, been led astray by others' opinions. I look for the commonalities in the statements of others to guide my purchases.
To reciprocate, I review many products that I have purchased and try to be as accurate about my experiences as possible so others may benefit as well.
Again, no sweat if that's not your thing. I do understand how some folks do not value others' opinions. You don't know them nor they you. It is a leap of trust that I am sure is difficult for some. That's okay!
I don’t particularly care for opinions, and can do that on my own. What I am interested in is facts, and if other people give me good fact based information I am all in for it, even if that takes more words to read. I rather like reading a well argued and documented case.
not all opinions are worthwhile - an expert opinion by an Electronic engineer, acoustician or recording engineer is worth a lot more than an opinion by a run of the mill dude on the internet
Some some of these posts are just too long- who wants to read more than a paragraph of someone else’s opinion? I would also like to see the sarcastic, snide, trying-to-be-clever, and kumbaya posts go away. What we might then have is an informative, opinionated, and entertaining forum.
@willemj Yes, modern Germany is a very decent country. I have one of my bikes there, and go visit/ride every summer for a month. I have many good friends there, and it is quite a cool vibe, being there. I have never been treated with anything but respect and with good hospitality wherever I go, despite the language barrier that arises on occasion. Luckily we speak a universal language... Got beer???? LOL
@cleeds, If you read your response to me several times, you will find answer to original question which is definitely there. @geoffkait , do same with all of yer responses to find an answer to OP's question. the answer is there for sure pal.
Geoff, I am not German (my grandfather sailed in convoys on the Atlantic and landed in Normandy delivering ammo on the beach while my father was in a labour camp). But what is the point of such xenophobic remarks? Modern Germany is a perfectly decent country.
Perhaps I could have been more clear. I think you may have misinterpreted my post. I do not require a "safe place" here, as you put it. I am all for opposing opinions, and free debate, especially when something can be learned from it. I just don't see the need for some of the insults and rude comments/name calling some members direct at others. Hope this clears up the intent of my post.
By the way, speaking of learning something new, I have not been able to log on to any forums here in the past couple of days. I know that the system has not been down, as I have received e-mail notifications to any new additions to this post, but I have not been able to get to the page. Has this happened to anybody here before, and if so, what would the cause be?
Whoops! I obviously should have mentioned Germany in the same breath as Russia when it comes to propaganda and brainwashing. My apologies. Germany and Russia. Like corn and carrots. 🌽 🥕
Dontcha realize that audiophile world is a nutshell full of propaganda and brainwash. When many folks here got used to brainwash and naive audiophile propaganda, they sometimes get offended when truth is spoken and that's normal, bcoz realizing foolishness or even more resisting learning is sometimes frustrating. After all, factually, it's made the way that smart will bully foolish and foolish may get sad here in Audiogon.
At the risk of sounding negative, to suggest that rude and incendiary comments on this site have anything to do with who is in the White House is ridiculous. Bad behavior has zero to do with politics. The shallow and imperious attitudes that reveal themselves in the forums are simply reflections of current human behavior in general: in ticket lines, on the highways, over the phone, in the grocery store, in the airport. The veil of the internet affords offenders an additional layer of protection and anonymity (and cowardice) to hide behind. As a parent and grandparent what is clear to me is that three essential values we always stressed with our kids are no longer priorities to parents: accountability, respect, and personal awareness. Anything goes and it’s all about me is the pervasive sentiment these days.
the problem with any listening in a sighted test is confirmation bias
That's simply silly. For example, there are many instances where the listener in a sighted test expected no improvement at all, or expected the result to be a detriment to sound quality, and yet the result was an apparent improvement. Clearly, that kind of result can't be dismissed with a wave of the hand and the tired old claim of "confirmation bias."
My wisdom is quite simple: never get personal (only technical), never argue opinions (quote only facts) and never assume that absence of an experience is equal to the absence of a fact. Oh, and, above all, live happily without being affected by personality problems other people exibit during every type of human gathering. As for deleted threads, rephrase and repost the topic but never expect people understand your intention just because you think it's good.
the problem with any listening in a sighted test is confirmation bias
that is why it is not allowed in all the medicines we use
- it sounds to me like the OP just wants a 'safe space' for himself to make posts that will not be contradicted by others who have a background in electronics, digital electronics, biology, psychology or acoustics
Phillyb-you are a looney left snowflake that brings politics into everything. You should think about getting more crayons or another soothing dog to get you thru life.
The term, social media, is a misnomer. These days it is actually anti-social media. Just because you have anonymity is no reason to be rude. A good rule of thumb is to never type anything that you wouldn't have the courage to say face to face. Music and listening to music is always subjective. Always grey. Never black & white.
Several great points made on this thread. We are here to help each other with advice and comments on audio. If someone posts a derogatory comment about a member, just pull the post. If the same member makes a habbit of it, banish them from the community altogether.
If a person chooses to buy a this or a that, it is their decision. No one else’.
I see input from others in those threads which ask for which this or where to from here, as spitballing for ideas outside of their own. Nothing more.
What someone does with those ideas is up to them. Who ever is paying the cost to be the boss is the ultimate trigger puller.
It used to amuse me how a thread would ask for options while including a couple of their own picks, and after all was sid and done, regardless of the outside feedbac,, the OP would opt for their own selections or something no one even mentioned! On the surface making the whole aspiration a waste of time essentially. But then firing a wad of dead presidents at some piece takes what it takes to decide. Usually its time.
Ready! Get set! Uh, well, er, go? It bes that way sometimes. For me anyhow. I’m a planner. Thinker aheader. I like to have an outline in place so at least I think I know where I’m headed.
As much as some here will profusely arbitrate and argue for their side of the coin, some will for all intents and purposes actually ‘demand’ (in essence) a certain item be chosen by the inquisitive poster. That is sheer nonsense and revelatory of a fairly unstable sort.
Being careful to ensure if I have a critter in the fight, or a dog in the hunt, is extremely grounding. Regularly, I do not.
As for keeping a list of current inventory abailable on this site, well, what if you are in the middle of replacing everything? Turning the sod completely over towards a new outfit? Your rig would look as scarce as hens teeth. Would or could it then, be seen as a lack of credentials?
As well, what if it has not been updated regularly? What too, if it is indeed, a ‘virtual’ system, and simply does not exist? What then? Are you a Audio deity, or merely deceitful? Or did you take the inference of virtual system verbatim? Posting what you desired or imagined.
Faith. Grain o salt. Supposition. Trust. Suspicion. All are in play now and then. The quickest way to dispel the false from the factual, is again, contacting the person and developing a dialogue. If I want to know more about what, or why someone says something, merely ask them. Publicly or via PM>
I heard a fella say once many years ago, during a visit to his shrink, “I’m finally able to let other people, be other people. ”
This is no small task. However, it does pay huge dividends, every time I can.
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