Thank you all for your time, consideration and excellent input thus far. I want to take a little time to re-read all of your posts and respond. In the mean time keep it coming. This is great stuff. Real and no BS. I love it!
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Can HI FI components really make music?
Hello everyone. I am posting this question possibly a bit early but I am getting frustrated and am about to throw in the towel, sell everything and buy a Bose wave radio and call it good. My question is does a good HI FI system ever really sound like live music? At this point I think not. I have been in this hobby for about 7 years and just can't seem to get there. Even the system at the local "hi end" dealer does not come close to live music. My system has evolved over the years to the following:
Wadia 861 CD
VTL MB 125 mono blocks
Supratek Chennin Pre
(2) Vandy 2WQ subs
Vandy 3A Sig
Cardas Golden Cross inter con
Kimber Bifocal XL spk cable
Vandy model 5 Xover
All this gear is in a 13x35x8 room. Although the sound is quite good. Better than most any other system Ive heard it still has a long way to go. In all fairness the 3As are not completely broken in but I dont think they will improve to the extent I want them to over the course of the next 30 hrs. My dealers solution is that I should get rid of the Supratek and replace with a VTL 5.5. I dont think so. Been there done that. Although the VTL is decent it cant compete with the Supra.
At this point I think maybe the VTL 125s are just not sophisticated or powerful enough to give me the sound Im looking for. I think they are the weak link along with cabling. I stated earlyer that the dealers system doesnt do it for me either and I think that may be due to the fact that their biggest amp is 185 wpc. Im thinking maybe a sophisticated amp with say 400 wpc might get me there with the 3As. I dont know... but I am not willing to spend 100K to what I want nor could I afford to.
For those of you that are still with me any and all input welcome. I am not one of those thin skinned audiophiles that cries like a baby when someone has the audacity to insult their precious gear. So fire away.
Thanks
Wadia 861 CD
VTL MB 125 mono blocks
Supratek Chennin Pre
(2) Vandy 2WQ subs
Vandy 3A Sig
Cardas Golden Cross inter con
Kimber Bifocal XL spk cable
Vandy model 5 Xover
All this gear is in a 13x35x8 room. Although the sound is quite good. Better than most any other system Ive heard it still has a long way to go. In all fairness the 3As are not completely broken in but I dont think they will improve to the extent I want them to over the course of the next 30 hrs. My dealers solution is that I should get rid of the Supratek and replace with a VTL 5.5. I dont think so. Been there done that. Although the VTL is decent it cant compete with the Supra.
At this point I think maybe the VTL 125s are just not sophisticated or powerful enough to give me the sound Im looking for. I think they are the weak link along with cabling. I stated earlyer that the dealers system doesnt do it for me either and I think that may be due to the fact that their biggest amp is 185 wpc. Im thinking maybe a sophisticated amp with say 400 wpc might get me there with the 3As. I dont know... but I am not willing to spend 100K to what I want nor could I afford to.
For those of you that are still with me any and all input welcome. I am not one of those thin skinned audiophiles that cries like a baby when someone has the audacity to insult their precious gear. So fire away.
Thanks
72 responses Add your response
As most posters have concluded, attaining a "live" reproduction is improbable. The attack, air movement, delicacy, etc. is something I have never heard fully replicated. The system I presently own is most musical with a good deal of detail, and yet, following any live performance, acoustic or amplified, I invariably experience a sense of simpatico and disappoinment. All the time and money invested has brought the illusion closer, and conversely further from a real event. Earlier in the week I attended a music festival with a variety of music, all amplified. I predominately spent the evening listening to Lucinda Williams. The drive and power is unapproachable. Two days later I popped on the new live vinyl of Williams' new lp. Good sound, yes, but not even close to what I heard Sunday. Jeffreybehr, I relate to your dilemma. I try to deal with it often. Every new component or tweak is going to be the one. Within days the affair wears off. My wife has more than once suggested the ease of a Bose system. Just relax and groove to the music. No sweet spot. No discriminate listening. No Audiogon. A radical consideration. |
I can't believe that NOBODY here addressed the biggest issue. Your room! NOTHING more important in a COMPLETE system except for your ears. I have heard and I have owned systems that sounded like live music. Jaw dropping. One room was 28'x16'x10'. The next good room I had was 7.5 foot ceiling x 13'x19'. It really did sound great though small. Find a room and a system that knocks you out and then duplicate it. Joe |
I agree that your audio system will NEVER sound like live music of ANY kind, but you'll get closer with some kinds than with others. I'm amazed that you didn't tell us what kind of music you love and are trying emulate. IMO, the highly synthetic stuff...pop, rock, etc....ought to be easiest to get close to, but you'll need more-dynamic, punchier speakers. If you love big-orchestra music, you'll NEVER get there, but I'm very pleased about how close I am. Is your gear on a long or short wall? If you want a close-to-life-size soundstage, you'll want dipole speakers. The upgrade that made the most difference by far for me was the Quad 989s; the 2nd-most significant were the ASL 805 SETs. My multichannel system will present a reasonable facsimile of a real orchestra playing in real space. So what kind of music? . |
The answer is obvious when asked the way you do: no. I believe Peter Walker explained why many years ago. Recorded music is an ersatz, but as far as ersatz go name me one that is closer to reality? To help you people here will suggest all sorts of things: new cables, new components, new or improved room, line conditioners and a myriad of tweaks that cannot in any sane way amount to anything. The problem is not with your system, but with you. You have simply set the bar too high. I like what my wife said when we left the Mark Knopfler concert at Place des Arts last Saturday. She simply told me how much she enjoyed the show, but how it all sounded so much better on my system since live the lyrics were inaudible but recorded you can hear them all. Those are the small things you should be grateful for with recorded music. If you want it to sound live, simple: go to a concert. Good luck. |
Sorry but hifi is not live music and vice versa. That doesn't mean that listening to recorded music can't have it's own set of unique pleasures. It looks like you've got a very nice system, so go put on a great recording and think about what you like about it. I mean there must be something about it that you appreciate, right? I think that once you adjust your expectations, and realize that there is a place in one's life for high quality recorded music you'll find that you're much happier and more satisfied with your system. Also, perhaps give some thought to simplifying things a bit, there must have been a time when listening was about the music and not the equipment, right? Well perhaps slimming down to something simpler, perhaps run the Wadia directly into a low wattage SET type amp and using that to power a more lively and efficient speaker it might bring back some of the pleasure you once had. Good luck and happy listening! |
i've been in this hobby for 25 years and NOTHING makes better music than the vintage stuff. a pair of large advents, a marantz receiver, and a thorens turnable, held together by the cheapeat wire known to man, pretty much sound as much like live music as my current system, which cost as much as my automoble. ironically one of the most popular speaker systems used my jazz, bluegrass, and folk musicians (on stage) is the bose 802 system. the 901 for pros. yhe only thing for sure in the hi end hobby, is that one day (maybe not today or in a week) your system will suck. |
I like my hi-fi, but I like my live music too. Saw Oscar Peterson last week, got Brain Wilson next week and a whole host of others to come (Rod Stewart, Joss Stone, James Blunt, Ibrahim Ferrer). Live music is usually amplified, unless you're listening to classical music. Recorded music is usually multi-miked (occasionally a crossed pair in live concerts) and engineered to sound as if you're in front of the performers in the studio. That is very different to being in a large hall LIVE. Personally, my system does sound like the performers are in my front room. But it doesn't sound like a live concert. The best upgrade I ever made was my Avantgarde Duos, followed by my Tron Meteor tube preamp (www.tron-electric.com - now succeeded by the Tron Syren with its rave reviews). If you try the Duos, get them set up properly; this can make or break your experience with them. |
Maybe you have too much noise in your system. My biggest upgrades were my PowerWing XP from Alan Kafton, Sonoran cabling with the steel micro-bead insulation, and finally Sistum stand and/or AudioPoints. Dropping the noise floor lets you actually hear your components. It lets you hear the microdynamics, the little things you didn't even know were there, even the pluck of a guitar string and then the note as it decays. Anyone can sit down in front of my equipment and point to each person or instrument in the soundstage. I'm talking right to left, and front to back. I honestly sit down and smile everytime with my system, what more could a person want? I believe if you'll start out by dealing with the power ( I chose the PowerWing XP ) over the Hydra-8, and power cords (the Sonorans Plateau's are about $550.00 a piece retail, but the Synergistic Research with the Active-X are really good and cheaper ), and pick up some AudioPoints or brass spikes (rather than damping your equipment with sorbathane or Big Feet, you'll be amazed and get back in this game that's insanely addictive. Chuck |
For openers, you should consider having your Wadia 861 upgraded to the Reference or Statement level provided by Steve Huntley of Great Northern Sound. I was skeptical but finally sent my 861 to Steve for the Reference mod. It was worth every penny. It's a lot of money, but the mods made an already fine CD player more involving and just better. And I'm with Herman on the Vandersteens. I like and respect the man, and I've owned several pairs of his speakers, including the 3A Signature, but they just seem to lack the clarity and resolution of other speakers in the same price range. I went with the Von Schweikert VR-4Jr. nearly a year ago and would never consider going back. There are lots of other good speaker choices, including some used Dunlavys. Don't give up just yet. Finally, let's not kid ourselves. Nothing approaches a good live concert -- assuming the sound crew knows what it's doing and the acoustics are decent. |
No, not yet. Most of us do get to enjoy a fairly satisfactory facsimile. You might not ever be completely satisfied though. With most live music events depending on similar and in many case worse quality components, whats one to do? That is a mighty large room your filling there with just 125 watts per channel. IMHO with the possible exception of the VTL's (ironic?) while all quality pieces, they all tend to lean on the soft side of neutrality. Just what is it that you specifically find lacking/distracting in your system compared to the live event? |
Check out Jeffrey Jackson's web site for a fine example of this approach. Not exactly cheap, but the good stuff rarely is |
Yes, but the big problem is that live music is not only an aural event, it is also visual. Once they figure out how to create a realistic, full scale, 3 dimensional visual then I think the illusion will work. On the other hand, since you asked for it, I have always found your speakers to be slow and bloated and IMHO by far the weak link in your system. Live music is dynamic and your speakers are not. Your speakers are polite and inoffensive and so far removed from real music that you will never be satisfied with them. A pair of Lowthers or horns properly implemented with a low power SET amp and the rest of your already fine equipment will get you closer to the music than the 3A's ever dreamed about. I like the Vandy subs and they would give you the bottom end that Lowthers lack, or a pair of Avantgarde Duos used around $10,000 if the budget allows will amaze you. Whatever you do, lose the 3A's. |
Get the Bose, and with the money you save you can attend a lot of live performances. On a more serious note, I like the way music sounds live myself. I'm always seeking that type of ambience in the sound of my system. I have several DAT recordings I have made of live events that my system does a fair job of duplicating, but certainly not equal to the event itself. However, I've learned to live with it and would not consider selling off my entire system for something along the lines of the Bose. In fact if anything, I'll upgrade since I enjoy music in general and it's a fun hobby. BTW - you have a great system. If you do decide to sell it off I'd be interested in the Supratek. |
Think your expectations of reproduced music in the real world is out of whack. Nothing wrong with high expectations. Agree with "Newbee" that you should be "getting some fairly fine sound with your present stuff." If unhappy with your music now, you'll REALLY be disappointed with Bose. If I were to suggest anything, it would be a few acoustical treatments. BTW, I have same questions as you but I'm not considering Bose. |
I don't know what 'sound you are looking for' but if you're looking for live, forget it. You will never even come close, dispite all of the hype! But, having said that you can still put together a fine system which will allow you to come close to replicating the information on the disc you are playing. You are talking about your equipment - frankly you aught to be getting some fairly fine sound with your present stuff, even if its not as loud as you would like or would be available with a more powerful amp, or even if your speakers are not the last word in detail or transparency. All of this leads me to ask what you have done to maximize speaker and listening position set up and room acoustics? But if you really want 'live' music in your room, forget it and get the Boze - you'll lead a less stressful life and live longer. :-) |
Hey buddy....been there ,done that.Your gear is amazing!Only your hearing is BETTER.You know there is more to it,and your right.Hi-fi can't cut the mustard,it sure can cut the cheese.Oh, that was me......Sell the whole thing ?...oh yeah!I did and will never look back.My guess is that your not as crazy as I am.Your ears tell a different story. |