Can HI FI components really make music?

Absolutely!

If a speaker tower falls in your living room and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?!

I'm back in the game and happy to report getting some very good sound. No, its not perfect but its damn good. I replaced the VTL mb125s with Parasound JC 1s. Every aspect of the sound has improved dramatically. Well, the midrange was a little sweeter with the VTLs but for me its worth the slight trade off for all the other benefits. The Vandersteens obviously need lots of power. They sound like a completely different speaker. I still may replace them in the future but for now they sound fine and they are not even broken in yet. This has been a very valuable lesson regarding system synergy. I really hated the Vandersteens until I paired them with the right amp. Now the sound very good. Best imaging and sound staging I have heard in my system yet.

Herman, my speakers are Chapman Q6 three way towers. I have reviewed them on Audiogon and the other forum. The address and telephone number of the manufacturer are included. These were prototype speakers two years ago, but since then Stuart Jones made a pair for himself and a few other old customers. He does not sell through dealers nor advertise at this time to my knowlege. He said he was planning a web site. Stuart is very amiable, knowlegeable and I feel sure would be happy to talk to any audiophile on the phone. His speakers are well priced. He uses state of the art components. The Chapman T7s have been reviewed and well liked; also his former flagship the Q7s are even better,but the Q6s are probably his best accomplishment in 35 years because he has acheived better more three demensional imaging and sound staging. These are silky smooth organic sounding speakers, also. Just very natural.

What you are after is possible, but do not expect ANY stock consumer gear to deliver the dynamics or clarity of a live performance. I dont care if you spend $150K, you will not get it. You should consider modifications of a piece that you really like the sound and ergonomics of. This article explains why this phenomena exists:
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue15/modsnugent.htm

I have personally found that virtually everything in a typical system needs mods in order to deliver a dynamic live sound, or whatever was on the source tape, even the speakers.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Manufacturer/modder

Sheffb, I think your comments are valid but can't find any info on your speakers. Links to more info ????

Just curious

You should at least try to audition some different speakers, especially given the honest feedback you have received from many in this thread. You are going to sell them anyway, so sell them. Seek out a few suggestions, make a short-list, do some auditions, and see if it gets you closer.

My bet is if you sell everything, it will nag and nag you until you are all back in again in a couple of years.

If you really enjoy music, I would recommend more then background music. You could rebuild a simple system after researching which would be emotionally involving to listen to at more exciting volumes without being critical. My system lends itself to just enjoying the music. I do not have a very expensive system, but one which is painstakingly put together. I believe many music lovers out there have systems they enjoy. In my particular system, I believe a few things have made a real difference.
1. A CDP with very low jitter distortion aided by a digital filter in the AC line. Excellent mechanical isolation.
2. Much of my collection are JVC XR CDs which are phenominally musical.
3. My preamp and amp both have single voicing with only one output device per channel
4. My speakers were designed meticulosly for seemless 3 dimensional silky reproduction.
5. Proper AC line purification has helped a great deal
6. Sistrum speaker stands made a real difference.

The secret is focusing more on the music and less on the system, but the state of the art is too good to throw in the towel. My system has no glare, edge, haze, grit, brightness, veiling, dullness, dryness, coldness, overly sweet or overly warm, mechanical, "digital sounding" or any of those negative qualities. It just sounds, natural, nonfatiguing, musical with nice bloom, harmonically rich and accurate timbre. I suspect there are thousands out there with similar results. Please don't give up!

Just wanted to give everyone an update. After much tweaking I have come to the conclusion that HI FI just wont do what I want. Im going to sell everything and build a small, simple system for background music. No more critical listening. I will be posting adds for my gear here soon.

Thanks

Cdc, I think we are on the same page now. When I made the comment about me being inexperienced I meant just that. It was not dirrected at you in the least. Sorry for the confusion and thanks again for the advice.

Hi Braro, I was talking about a single driver speaker, not yours. I don't think I'm all that experienced, just like sharing what I have discovered. Maybe it does some good.

it's a zen thing. what the heck is music really?! what you THINK you are looking for is not to recreate noises generated through musical 'instruments'. if the PLAN calls for you to be neurotic about this stuff then that is what happens. you may think you have a choice but that is part of the divine hypnosis of human experience. obviously your $$$ system and tweaking is not the 'problem'. everything is relative in human experiences. the searching 'Doer' is the conceptual impediment. then again it could be speaker cables... or migrating wildfowl smashing into elec. wires

I have played live music for the past 30 years and have played in my symphony for the past 15 years.The speaker that comes very close to the recreation of a live event our my Martin Logan QuestZ's.My Grado Reference Phono Cartridge The Reference also adds to that sense of real playback your looking for .I wrote a review on this cartridge and should write a product review on the Quest Z's as well.Don't throw in the towel yet.With careful listening you can find something out in AUDIO LAND.

My apology on my mis-statement regarding the 3A Sig. possible veiling. I was thinking of an earlier vintage Vandy. I still recommend the Star Sound sistrum platform appropriate for your size speaker. It can make a big difference. Product is guarenteed.

Can HI FI components really make music?.....no
Can you learn to make a WHOLE system...room and tools etc,make you smile again ...yes....Go beyond what you thought was possible and blow the doors out of all hi-fi....hell yes

I am very pleased with my GamuT CD1R for source, but if you are looking for perfection, the Reimyo 777 CDP probably would take you another step beyond the Wadia 861. From my experience, when you finally get your system fine tuned, nearly live music results. I can truly say I experience it. I was at the St. Louis Jazz festival a couple weeks ago, at the Opera a month ago and live performance of My Fair Lady last weekend. I listened to same jazz performers at home, Madame Butterfly at home and Sound of Music at home which sounded just about as good to me. I am sure there are many better systems out there, but my argument is you can approach live music at home. It is not impossible. From what I know your speakers, however may be somewhat veiled. I predict if you put your speakers on sistrum stands, you would be amazed the improved clarity

Cdc I was reffering to your comment. "Wow, you say this speaker sucks". I am just trying to clarify that I think they are good for the money but I am to a point where I realize no comination of "hi fi" components and recorded media is ever going to sound like the real thing. Its my own fault for thinking I could make it happen even though Ive never heard a system that could. I guess it just shows my lack of experience. It was a very expensive lesson. Thanks for your response.

"In all fairness the 3As are not completely broken in but I dont think they will improve to the extent I want them to over the course of the next 30 hrs."
But you don't seem to be happy with them.
"I am not one of those thin skinned audiophiles that cries like a baby when someone has the audacity to insult their precious gear."
Okay, but I never even mentioned anything about your speakers being good or bad.

Bravo, I'm not sure how to interpert your measurements. Are you saying that (1) the right channel at 100 hz is +6db over a 1K tone measured on the R speaker or a 1K tone measured on both speakers, or (2) 6db over the L speaker output?

One thing to consider in making measurments/adjustments in the mid-lower bass response is that much (but by no means all) of the info there is mono. Rather than focusing on the difference between each speakers output below 200 hz I would look at the summed output of both speakers. Also, consider that most of the balance issues are more apparent from tones in the mid range and highs, so while your might have an imbalance in the lows (between speakers)if the summed output is balanced with the upper frequencies you might never hear it.

In general the corresponding node and null at 100 and 150 hz suggests to me a problem which might be curable by altering the speakers or listening position, however if this ratio is close to the same no matter where you place your speakers and/or chair it is a room problem. You would want to fix this either by using appropriate bass traps or a good parametric equalizer. A 12 db swing is going to be very audible. BTW this could be a result of your rooms construction.

That 12db rise at 15kz is not likely to be related to your room - it could be the equipment used to make your tests or it could be a problem with your electronics or speaker. You could easily check this out by using a process of elimination in switching electronics and speakers one piece at a time.

What are the other measurements between 1k and 15k for the right speaker and for the left speaker? IMHO, your balance problem is more likely because of disparate speaker response, or untreated reflection points, some where between 500hz and 5000hz than anywhere else.

Newbee, I have switched everything in my system around trying to figure out where the channel varriation is coming from. Im fairly certain its the room. Not all frequencys are different in the same way. I dont have the chart in front of me so these are not the actual numbers but it goes something like this:

R at 100 hz + 6db
R at 150 hz - 6db
R at 15 khz + 12db
R&L at 200hz same

etc.

My room is in the basement. Luckily it has an 8' ceiling but there is a step. Directly above the listening position is the entrance to the upstairs, a sunken entry which results in a bumb in the basement ceiling. This bump extends out from the right wall about feet and is about 8 feet long and 15" deep. Could this bump be causing some problems along with the fact that the wall the speakers are on is not perpedicular to side walls. I talked about it in earlier post.

Cdc, I never said any speaker sucked. I chose the 3As because of the speakers that are available for me to demo they were the best for the money. Thats why I bought them.

I strongly agree about Avante Garde Duos and SET. The horn colorations are obvious but they have magic in their musical presentation. They do not have any better dynamics than a regular cone speaker. Based on my listening I think this is a myth. Yes, they can play loud but their dynamic range = difference between loud and soft is no different than, say, B&W or Opera speakers. You'd need Quad ESL's for better micro dynamics but they don't play loud like the Avante-Garde's.

Staying on the "audiophile" track I liked ATC active 100's which have very dynamic bass and can play 115dB all day.

But if it was me, I'd go with a good full range single driver speaker with no whizzer like Bob Brines Fostex FT-200 speaker. You can't get high SPL and good sound for the most part. Also most speakers that play loud can't play soft. It's either one or the other.
If you ever lived with a good single driver speaker you be surprised:
* time and phase coherent.
* sound from point source.
* No change in voicing as with multiple drivers of different materials.
* Excellent PRAT.
* No crossover to add distortion, coloration, absorbs power and the dynamic range of music. As Bobby Palkovic at Merlin said, even adding one capacitor to the x-over creates audible nasty sound.
So the first thing you notice is no bass, no loud volume level, lack of detail, especialy in the HF. Wow, you say, this speaker sucks. But live with it for a while and you get over the audiophile traps and realize real musical satisfaction does not come from these things. My experience anyhow.

Then I guess ....it's over then.

But let me know if that little voice is still talking to you in a few days and saying...."what if that lonely ,little obnoxious,crazy ,lazy ,good for nothing, nut job was right" Give me a buzz

later dude.

At least you didn't become hostile towards my weirdness.This speaks volumes about you....You are ready for IT

C5150, I dont see any reason to get rid of everything if a few inexpensive tweaks will get me close to where I want to be. If I can get say 75% of the way there I think I will be quite happy. Especially after realizing its never going to sound like the real thing. My wife put it in perspective when she asked me if Id ever heard a system anywhere that sounded like the real thing. My response was NO.

Hey

Why don't you buy a wide range of cd players,speakers,interconnects ,amps etc....Play around with it until you hit the jackpot.One in 14 million chance...You call that a hobby? LOL

I'll shut up now!

The best a system can do is SIMULATE a musical event -- which simulation may or may not be close to the actual event recorded. Musicians & insturments make music, systems reproduce what's on the storage medium. I'm not saying anything new here.
To put some perspective in the excellent advice above, look for and put into words what ELEMENT of the reproduced sound you MUST have, to bring the sonic result closer to simulating (i.e. acceptably tricking your ears) "live" music...
FOr example, in my case such a very important element is transient attack/dynamics, or whatever you wish to call it: the ability of the system to reproduce sudden (and not so sudden) changes in intensity... YMMV

Generally speaking though, the usual "weak" points in any system are the sources and the speakers -- since both transduce / convert. We then have the matter of each component driving the next component, etc.

I believe that you should listen to a pair of wide-range speakers & horns -- just to experience a different approach. Your electronics certainly seem up to the task of providing good signal & power...

Braro, improvement after adding the room treatments was very significant. I have them in all corners, in the middle where every wall meets the ceiling, and behind me where the walls meet. The front corners and wall-ceiling interface had the most profound effect but they all contribute. Check out this review for more info. It is a bit long winded but you get the idea behind the product if you stick with it.

In a nutshell, the corners act like megaphones. The sound pressure goes into the corner and when it comes back into the room it is like the corners are shouting at you. Just as if you cup your hands to make your voice louder.

Hey! C'mon dudes cut your 'cheese'!!! 3A's, Horns, stats etc...
I listen to it live in the famous clubs of NYC such as Birdland, Blue Note, Irridium with EV or JBL speakers and probably beefy Carver amps and it does sound live since you hear more an instrument v.s. the speakers. The room realy means a lot!

Braro, I wrote earlier about my system. Now that I know you like jazz which I love, some suggestions which may be nothing new to you. The JVC XRCD jazz remasters are usually terrific. Most sound live in my system. Also many labals ie Columbia/Legacy, Blue Note, Verve have done a wonderful job remastering the classic greats from late 50s and 60s. The 20 and 24 bit remasters are particularly excellent. Usually the studio recordings are better but not always. On another subject, the PowerWing AC purifier "brass" edition not only refines the sound but will push your performance back further in the stage which might help you. Please read review by Dave Clark and Robert Levi, Positive Feedback, issue 8 on the net. I'm sure Alan the designer will lend you one to try. Of course I love my audio magic mini stealth which they burn-in before they ever send it to you. These two AC purifiers take nasty "grit" out of your system. The sound is then much cleaner and purer and you can never go back. Even my $3500 JPS Labs Aluminati Power Cord sounds better plugged into the Mini Stealth!

Herman, I like your room. I notice you have treatment in the front upper corners. Did you notice much of a difference after adding this tweak? My room has a sort of buzzing sound that is quite loud. If I clap my hands while sitting in the sweet spot the room rings or buzzes for about 1 second. I thought maybe the corners like you have would help.

Braro, I have Duos.

I am not so much a fan of horns as I am a fan of SET amps and highly efficient speakers. Music is very dynamic and inefficient speakers require tremendous amounts of power to be dynamic. These high powered amps are not as musical as low powered SET amps. This limits your speaker choices and horns happen to work with SET amps. The sticking point is that horns are difficult to properly implement and unless they are very big have limited bass response.

I've heard Lowther based systems that I really like (Beauhorn Virtuoso, Jeffrey's, Lamhorns) and some that I didn't. I've heard the Duos sound like crap when paired with the wrong components or improperly set up. I could live with any of the above mentioned but I happened to get a good deal on the Duos so I went for it. I've listened to a lot of systems over the years and mine has slowly evoled into one that I am very happy with. If you are in the market for a world class set of speakers and can afford it then Jeffrey's should be on your short list.

"Once you know where the problem areas are frequency wise, how do you deal with them?"

Depends on the frequency. Moving the speakers and listening position about can cure a lot of bass problems, but not all (for those you might need a parametric equalizer). Toe-in can cause/cure a lot of sidewall reflection problems (mids and highs). Carpets can cure a lot of floor reflection problems (mids and highs) and ceilings can cause problems as well but are more difficult to treat because of WAF.

Get your meter back out and create a base line measurement on your system as set up and then start moving things about again and see what physical changes affect the base line measurements (chart it all, don't think you will remember 2hrs later). Pick and focus on one frequency abberation at a time (I usually start with the bass). If you need help after you have flattened it as best you can, give a very exact description/measurement of your room, furnishings, speaker and listening position. I'm sure many here will be able to give you specific recommendations.

You mentioned that your speakers measured differently. Is this the room or the speakers? Have you reversed the actual speakers to see? Have you just reversed the channels to see if its the electronics?

FWIW, your speakers are just fine, and in many ways ideal but they do have limitations. If you accept their limitations you will lose a lot of angst about not having a "perfect sound" system. Just don't spend a lot of money trying to get them to do something they can't! Be happy and listen to all that great music! :-)

When I said to sell it all .....I ment it.I didn't say sell and give up your love for music,or to never listen again.You Have a hi-fi system and your not happy.Spending even more $$$ ...like all of us have to get you nothing.Well you can buy hope i guess.

My conclusion is your keeping the sound you don't like and are giving up.Oh you will improve some by appyling some of my friends tweaks but in the end you will be doomed to mediocre sound.Hey even the 200K system here on audiogon are changing things around.Wonder why????If they can't figure out good sound then in theory YOU can't either.I used to be part of that club, Good luck!

Herman I take it you use horns, Jeffrey Jacksons? Tell me about your experiences with them.

I am going to keep the 3As and try to make them work. I have to, I just got em.

Well, that is very sad. A very poor reason to keep anything.

You said you are not thin skinned so here you go; Your speakers are lame, they always were lame, they will always be lame, there is nothing you can do to keep them from being lame. Unless you realize this and change your speakers you are going to be stuck in HiFi hell forever.

Well I have settled down a bit. Now with a clearer head and your help I have decided to keep my gear and address some of the issues you have pointed out. I have to much time and money invested to just chuck it all. Not to mention the fact that I would really miss the music. I listen to just about everything but mostly jazz, blues, rock, fusion and electronica. Lately Ive been getting into 60s latin jazz. I love that Jimmy Smith organ but not wild about the big band backing. Let me know if any of you have come accross great latin jazz recordings.

I would like to point out that I am getting very good sound but as Pbb stated the problem is with me. I can be a bit of a perfectionist at times. The things I find lacking in my system are as follows: A huge lack of micro and macro dynamics (this is why I think more power may help), a much to forward treble, a strange un natural tonal character to the mid range. There are some good things like the huge holographic soundstage and pinpoint accuracy with certain recordings. I agree that all live performances dont blow my skirt up. Ive heard some terrible ones that make me love my system. What Id like to reproduce is the sound you get at a small well set up blues or jazz club. I saw Tito Puente at Jazz Alley and it was fantastic. To bad he's gone now. Ive only seen a couple of good big shows. The Cult was great and though Im not a fan of Sting (went for my wife) he sounded fabulous. Im not really considering a Bose Wave radio although I would love one in my bedroom or kitchen.

As far as set up goes I have a long way to go. This is what I have done so far and what I have learned about my room. I did the test tone thing with the Rives test CD and SPL meter and found that I have some big peaks and suck outs. As much as 12 db in some frequencys. Also I tested left and right channel independently and found that the right and left side actually vary quite a bit. Could this be causing the problems? Ive had the 3As all over the room. They are set up along the 13' wall about 6' out. They seem to image best there.The back wall is not perpindicular to the side walls. There is almost a foot more space behind the right speaker. Another possible problem? All equipment is on a mixture of 3 and 4 Black Diamond Racing cones.

I am going to keep the 3As and try to make them work. I have to, I just got em. I will put in a dedicated AC line and try to get the frequency response of the room a little flatter. Once you know where the problem areas are frequency wise, how do you deal with them?

I think Im going to go down and enjoy some music now without listening to the gear. Thanks again for all your help. Oh, if any of you are near the Seattle Tacoma area and want to help me sort it out please contact me.

Thanks for the distorted paraphrase, Pbb. Other than this flub, I'm sure your credibility is pretty solid.

-IMO

Your talking crazy talk with gear like that! Is there an audiophile or two that lives near Braro?! He needs an intervention... but seriously, it sound from here like a fine rig. What do your friends think of the system? Sometimes we get too close to the thing and need to lighten up and get an outside opinion or three. Set up is critical. All the great equipment in the world will not guarantee musicality though. Hopefully your just going though one of those temporary crisis modes of... What the hell is it really all about?! It will pass. enjoy!

There is no good or bad hi-fi. It's all subjective. A great sounding system to one typically is a P.O.S. to someone else. And over time your perception of your own system typically changes. And reproduction of "live" is typically lost long before the hi-fi is involved, namely in the recording process. Maybe someday we'll get there.

"more time and money", there you go "got live if you want it!"

Maybe you should consider high efficiency horn or horn loaded speakers. Or even old ['30's &'40's] theater speakers with field coil [electro-magnets, not permanent magnets] for the bass drivers and horns for the mid's & high's. These can reach 130 dB of efficiency.

your system is awesome. if you are willing to spend more time and money, i believe your system can come closer to live. i have heard those close enough to put a big grin on my face and give me goose bumps, so i am a believer. a few suggestions:

1. try nos tubes
2. try connecting from wadia directly to amps
3. modify wadia
4. try non-power-limiting and neutral power conditioners (my favorite is running springs audio haley)
5. audition acapella speakers, even their small monitors will do
6. audition reimyo cdp-777

the above suggestions are the most cost efficient ways that i have learned to get closer to the live sound, in my experience. my own system is no where close to live. but occasionally it reaches out and connects with me. it keeps me a happy believer.

best of luck.
scottie

After 40 yrs. of this audiophile game, I am enjoying simulation of live music, probably 75% of the time. The secret, I feel is fine tuning after lots of direction and home work. The mini stealth AC purifier, aurios and sistrum stands all made major improvements toward realism. I use all JPS audio wires which in my system really added to the realism. I use Chapman prototype Q6 speakers which the manufacture (Stuart Jones) says are the most accurate speakers he has built in 35 years. The GamuT CD1R I use seems to read everything on the CD with its method of oversampling. The most refining component for my system, which seemed to make the leap to reality was my deHavilland Mercury preamp. Jazz and Opera definitely approch the live performance which I have compared on various occasions. Large orchestral works can appoach live performances also. With a prayer I think the effert is worth it. The other thing I have found is more expensive is not necessarily better.

After 40 yrs. of this audiophile game, I am enjoying simulation of live music, probably 75% of the time. The secret, I feel is fine tuning after lots of direction and home work. The mini stealth AC purifier, aurios and sistrum stands all made major improvements toward realism. I use all JPS audio wires which in my system really added to the realism. I use Chapman prototype Q6 speakers which the manufacture (Stuart Jones) says are the most accurate speakers he has built in 35 years. The GamuT CD1R I use seems to read everything on the CD mwith its method of oversampling. The most refining component for my system, which seemed to make the leap to reality was my deHavilland Mercury preamp. Jazz and Opera definitely approch the live performance which I have compared on various occasions. Large pchestral works can appoach live performances also. With a prayer I think the effert is worth it. The other thing I have found is more expensive is not necessarily better.

How many of the people who trash Bose have actually listened to Bose speakers? Has anyone actually listened to them in a high end system? They are far from perfect, but even in cheap systems, soem of them are capable of reproducing dynamics and midbass surprisingly well. I have never heard them in anything but lo-end systems, but wonder if high-end gear well- matched would make them sing without the harshness they are known for.
I have heard them on stage, and they usually sound better than most stage gear. I remember one big band in particular that was using them, and from a distance they sounded incredibly real and natural (although up close they sounded quite harsh)

I had predicted a post such as Stehno's. A true believer, a true believer. Change cables and cure your ac and there you go: music!

A well thought out system and configuration can provide you the very best that any recording has to offer. And that is all anyone can hope for in music reproduction.

In my opinion, the only way to achieve such sonic pleasure (even in many so-called 'poor' recordings) is by investing much time and thought into a system and properly addressing the obvious and universal drawbacks every system must cope with. Namely:

o Noisy AC.

o Inferior cabling between components and speakers that induce harm such as grain, hash, and/or time smear.

o Ensuring there is an abundance of AC power to the amplifier to fully reproduce the dynamics of complex and/or demanding passages even at lower listening levels. (dedicated circuits/lines)

o Obtaining the best possible speaker interaction with the room via proper speaker placement. (room acoustics itself is highly overrated).

o Implementing certain tweaks such as acquiring the best audio-grade accessories such as cryo-treated iec connectors, plugs, outlets, cables, etc..

o Air-borne vibrations captured instantaneously by the components and speakers themselves yet can only dissipate over an extended period of time.

o And never underestimate what a well-engineered amplifier can do to absolutely catapult your system's sonics into a whole nuther realm entirely. IMO, there are very few amplifiers that are capable of doing this.

In your specific case, I'd recommend starting off by experimenting with speaker placement, other interconnects, speaker cables, line conditioning, vibration control, and installing dedicated circuits/lines.

-IMO

No way dude!
Music is being made by composers and/or musicians or combination of both listed above.

Music contains expressive qualities that come through no matter what gear you listen through. My $11 Aiwa FM clock radio blasts golden oldies in the kitchen. A $68 Sony CD/Cassette/FM radio combo boombox, complete with headphone jack and digital clock, does it all in our playroom. Ditch the overpriced, distracting, nerve wracking system you have now. It obviously isn't connecting you to the world of music. Instead, go to the nearest music store and get yourself a real musical instrument. See if you can get that to really make music. Report back on your findings.

Everyone mentioned equipment and room. Even if you had the ideal of both, there's one more variable - the recording chain. The losses start at the microphone and continue to the speakers. So, no matter what you do on your end, the recording process is still a limiting factor that cannot be controlled.