Cables ... no longer opinion

Check this out! Downsize Audio Cables is up again on a market test basis.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/downsize-audio-is-making-cables-again

I thought I was going to post some photos of cool foil cables, but I see photos aren't happening here, oops! I miss a lot in my old age, lol

Being friends with Josh, I have been to his shop many times. He probably has 30 or more cable brands there. It is a dream for anyone wanting to compare cables of every kind. I own Downsize cables because I've heard them best $20+ speaker cables. I replaced my source's $3500 power cable with his $400 power cables. Now I have 7 of those power cables. They simply sound good. The science is above me. But my ears don't lie to me. 
Josh has a policy where he simply won't tell anyone what to expect to hear with his cables. He doesn't want to plant any pre notions to lead to placebo expectations.
Also he wants to see of the feedback he gets has consistencies. He values finding out if others are hearing what he does. You notice he does not advertise or visit forums. He really enjoys helping people get better sound, but only when approached about it. He isn't egotistical, and doesn't want or need to prove anything. Ive seen him send a pair of interconnects to someone desperate to argue with him. He went silent and sent them out unpaid. He preferred it to the stress. He's disabled and spends most of his time obsessing about what improves sq. And ways to make it happen. He's doing it for him. But will share with people.
I think this leads to better sounding products. He designed them via experimenting. 
I just think it's interesting any individual can compete with and beat companies with R&D depts and deep pockets.
Those of you handy should try and build similar foil cables to his and try them. The only difference at all is the conductor purity and special teflon tapes for conductor insulation. 

I've used Goertz, River Cable(similar but thicker), MG Designs(side by side as opposed to stacked), and ZenWave (braided foil ribbon).They won't work with every amp because of the low inductance. Many amps need to see some inductance.The result is an anemic sound and/or oscillation.
The ZenWave (to my ears) is outstanding with my tube amp.With my ss amp it was anemic.The ZenWave is the very best I've heard,nothing else comes close.

Can someone please explain or reconcile this flat ribbon design verses the hellix construction others espouse? Any practical AB real world comparison between actual cables, DIY or commercial, that anyone cares to share?

I tried Goertz foil diy cables in the past though they sound decent they lacked transparency.  Probably has high amount of capacitance.  You can fine tune them by using fancy dielectric but beyond the diy realm.  
In the end it is not any one geometry but the harmony of all the variables.

I have some of this stuff laying around.  Might be time for an experiment.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B018RDZ3HG/?_encoding=UTF8&aaxitk=ac7db37b9948f264dac85d810b033c8e&...

If a high a capacitance across speaker cables produces a better sound, why can one not simply put an appropriate value capacitor across the speaker terminals while using low capacitance cables and achieve the same high capacitance (and presumably, a better sound) ?

My experience: I have had Josh's foil speaker cables and foil interconnects in my system (see description below) for a couple of weeks. What I am hearing and enjoying: greater dynamic range, increased clarity, faster transients, bigger sense of space, and powder dry bass. I feel like I got a significant upgrade. And Josh and Cullen were easy to work with.

All of the above are improvements to my ear from my previous loom of about the same price that was also custom made, but by a different cable fabricator.

My system: English Electric 8 switch; Silent Angle switch; Network Acoustics ENO Ethernet Filter Ag & ENO Streaming Cable Ag; Allo USBridge; Border Patrol SE-i DAC; Kinki Studio EX-P7; Downsize balanced foil interconnects; EX-M7; Downsize foil speaker cables; Tekton Double Impacts.

Josh and Downsize audio is still around. He makes runs of cables every few years or so. He is just reclusive, and suffers with his health. He recently made cables for several people on the forums. Maybe one of them will give their thoughts on the subject of stacked conductor foil cables. That and almost zero insulation or skin effect is what Josh is all about. And the stupid high purity conductors.

@pesky_wabbit. I’m sorry but once again this is incorrect. The width of the conductors combined by the given gauge tell us these are as thick as a dime or penny. This is not foils. This is not similar. And people will not get a taste of foils like this at all. The reason foils work like they do is how they are as thin as a human hair, while retaining the gauge. If you made the cables you’re suggesting, you will end up with something closer to Goertz cables.

WRT the Sewell flat adhesive speaker cable identified by nonoise:

https://www.amazon.com/Ghost-Adhesive-Speaker-Conductor-Sewell/dp/B079MMFVFJ/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=ghost+wire&qid=1618284602&sr=8-3

it would be very easy to glue two layers together using their self adhesive surfaces, and then cut them down the centre to provide two ribbon cables. Simple: If you liked the result you could add an outer protective layer.

Might be worth trying for a cheap taste of the ribbon topology.

Two ribbons placed together is obviously the best for SPEAKER cables. It's an immediate consequence of Maxwell's Equations. Just as two small conductors separated by a significant distance is the best for line level. That's assuming equal dielectric to take dielectric absorption out of the picture.

Doesn't require an experiment. It's immediate from the physics. terry91,461 posts04-03-2021 10:07pmYou can think of it as (1) speakers must have low inductance and (2) line level must have low capacitance. The cables and the equipment terminations form LR and RC filters respectively. But it doesn't matter much if lengths are short.

While I don't disagree much with your conclusions about inductance and capacitance mainly due to source and load impedance, I don't see where Maxwell enters the equation, pun intended.

nonoise, good to know you got it. Thanks for clarifying.

Josh is the real deal. Thanks for the help, flaxxer. 

You can think of it as (1) speakers must have low inductance and (2) line level must have low capacitance. The cables and the equipment terminations form LR and RC filters respectively. But it doesn't matter much if lengths are short.

Two ribbons placed together is obviously the best for SPEAKER cables. It's an immediate consequence of Maxwell's Equations. Just as two small conductors separated by a significant distance is the best for line level. That's assuming equal dielectric to take dielectric absorption out of the picture.

Doesn't require an experiment. It's immediate from the physics.

Which btw, thanks for that, flaxxer.

You say the cutest things that only souls who think like you would understand and I’m so thankful I’m not one of them.

Seems I overlooked the fact that the handle for the OP is flaxxer, so, my bad. I'm just used to you using all manner of jargon to describe people. Everything else I said is as said.

All the best,
Nonoise

I understand that cabling geometry would do and could do something for a better imaging like the other pieces of gear will help if they are well chosen....I dont doubt that....

But imaging is FIRST and LAST a result of acoustical controls methods....All there is,between these first and last steps, are welcome improvement but if someone want a good imaging and soundstage and more important than that a good "listener envelopment" experience with a good "source width experience" linked to it, a cable geometry, a good dac, and a very good amplifier will not be enough....At ANY price....

My experience and experiments confirm that to me.... Feel free to contradict me but i know what i speak about because i did it myself....



A TEST:
Pick Kurt Weill recording album 1958 "Three pennies opera" "Die Dreigroschenoper " with Lotte Lenya...

The recording engineer here was great and he put these mics at the different spot with art...

All along the opera, the voices are heard like in a 4 speakers system, coming in my right ears and left ears from my back, with the orchestra behind the speakers which are in front of me...My entire room is on the theater scene ....

Then i am on the theater among them....Not bad for a 500 bucks stereo system.... Try this opera with any gear and system at any price, if the room is not under control, the voices timbre will be unnatural, and you will not experience this music like if your stereo system suddenly become a 4 speakers system....

Acoustic is powerful.... Electronic is only the first step to Hi-Fi experience, i know that saying this will contradict what most people here think about audio...

Remember that i never upgraded my system for the last 3 years, and all my improvement cost me peanuts, the most important one being acoustic devices control....

I am a bit tired of cable wars, tubes/S.S. wars and digital/analog wars....

All these wars has proved to me that most people have no understanding of what really matters....

The three embeddings controls, but MAINLY the acoustical one is HUGE.....

Audio is almost equal to acoustic......

For example if the recording engineer on this Kurt Weill opera had not been a great master of acoustic, this recording would not have contained the necessary cues for my acoustic experience, and if my room have not been under controls  MY EARS/BRAIN  would have never been able to extract FROM MY ACTIVATED ROOM the information/cues contained in the recording files and recreate them in my room....And for this experience acoustic controls matters, never mind the price of the audio system....My 500 bucks audio system did it better than most costly one in a bad room.... Almost all rooms are, if not squarely bad, not optimal at all, unbeknownst to most....

Take my word for it, you have not heard truly 3D holographic imaging if you are not using a cable with this geometry.

I would make the generalized statement that anyone who makes a generalized statement like this is prone to hyperbole and couples that with a profound yet fundamental misunderstanding of imaging. Alas, they have a platform.

Which btw, thanks for that, flaxxer.

You say the cutest things that only souls who think like you would understand and I’m so thankful I’m not one of them.

Did it ever occur to you that folding or separating the two conductors and then running them, one atop the other, as an experiment, would suffice enough to see and hear for yourself that the concept has something in it to work with, saving yourself a sizable sum of money?

Like I said earlier, Ed Shilling has been doing this for decades. 

All the best,
Nonoise

"He is a genius inventor and engineer..."

He may as well be, but he is surely lacking ability to show it in writing. Like in that article quoted in the original post. It is really embarassing to put one’s name under/above those statements and explanations. He is not lacking ability to pull people to believe everything he says.

"He knows more about technology than the entire forum’s experience combined."

That is not saying much. Aside of that, technology is a very broad term. Propulsion of spaceships may have very little to do with minutia of chocolate production, or speaker design.

"He may have the single most researched and soundly engineered products offered to the hifi community."

Who is researching them?

This video demonstrates it is the geometry. The ribbons that aren't close have the spike distortion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9HrYAyVItY

That has the ribbons running side by side. That is missing the whole point of Townshend's design, which is to have the ribbon conductors extremely close together. Finding a thin enough tape, with desirable dielectric properties, and placing the ribbons the correct distance apart is the difference. All the difference, apparently, at least according to the people I talk to. Which btw, thanks for that, flaxxer

Maybe someone can get some of this: https://www.amazon.com/Ghost-Adhesive-Speaker-Conductor-Sewell/dp/B079NTKWS2/ref=asc_df_B079NXCN6B/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=242022044358&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=1065699303853200423&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031186&hvtargid=pla-475459224229&th=1 
 and wrap it in something nicer and sturdier and get back to us with the results.

All the best,
Nonoise

😂😂 None so blind as will not see! 😂
Thanks for the link. I read the review. Did you???!😂

I choose to review equipment and listen to music with them because they are consistently more revealing of space within a recording and produce extraordinarily good stereo imaging, Take my word for it, you have not heard truly 3D holographic imaging if you are not using a cable with this geometry. But that’s not all, this is also the best cable for bass that I have ever encountered, it can produce genuinely bone crunching lows when connected to amps and speakers that are up to the job. It won’t make your compact stand mount shake the furniture but it will let you hear just how low any speaker will go in a superbly controlled and highly entertaining fashion. This applies whether it’s a kick drum, an organ or a synthesiser, often it’s the latter that deliver the lowest notes. If you enjoy electronic, orchestral or rock music the bottom end is crucial to the full visceral experience. I’d say it is crucial whatever the music, even chamber orchestras or folk bands need to have headroom in the bass if they are to sound real, if the acoustic character of the venue is to be reproduced.

This cable is not only about bass however, I wouldn’t have been using it to review amps and speakers for over ten years if that was the case. It is also extremely revealing in an even handed way, there does not appear to be an emphasis on a particular part of the audio band, which is what a lot of supposedly detailed cables do to give the impression of transparency. There are plenty of cables that emphasize leading edges to give a strong sense of pace and many others that have a prominent midband which brings out fine detail, but it’s always at the expense of other aspects of the sound. This is fine if you want to use cables as a tone control but less so if you want to hear all of the music. The character will eventually become audible and result in a preference for particular recordings or music types because others don’t sound so good. Then the tail is wagging the dog and you lose sight of what this pursuit should be all about.

Isolda EDCT is very revealing of detail, tone colour, timing and soundstaging, you can clearly hear what a change in hardware or software is doing to the sound whether it be lowering the noise floor, improving the dynamics or making you jump about with excitement. In many ways its surprising that so few cable companies opt for this geometry, one reason is that it’s not available off the reel from an industrial cable company, Townshend has to build Isolda from the ground up and that’s very rare. It’s also not as robust as conventional stranded cables, if you bend it too much or tread on folds it will eventually die. I did abuse one cable enough to do this once, the constant equipment change of reviewing and the fact that the cables crossed a walkway was the problem, I’ve since figured out how to protect them

If you find yourself going round in circles trying to find a speaker cable that’s perfect for your system this should knock that habit on the head. If you want a filter/tone control in the form of a cable this however is not for you. Townshend Audio Isolda EDCT will show you what your system is capable of doing to an extent that might well come as a surprise. The first thing that hits you is the sense of calm that is presumably brought about by the reduction in RFI, then when the music gets going bass extension and power make themselves known, eventually however it will become apparent that you are getting more music from the system and that is easily worth the asking price. Isolda EDCT is sold in terminated pairs, below are the current prices for common lengths but pretty well any length can be supplied. Controversially Townshend also claims that uneven pairs work as well as those of equal length which will represent a saving in most systems.

This is the cable you are talking about. Someone clearly has their engineering down. I know who my money's on.

flaxxer,

Thank you seriously for the dose of humor. It is quite obvious that Max has forgotten a lot about engineering. Some would say, evident by his paper, that he has forgotten everything about electrical engineering. Given Max is from the UK, I expect he involvement with Nasa is non existent, but selling a screw to Nasa does not make you a rocket scientist. I would expect there are many on this forum, that have far more experience and knowledge than Max in many areas of audio, likely not limited to electrical engineering where his weakness is substantial.


The Goertz cables were based on the conductors from their Alpha Core inductors is my understanding and they are not a penny thick. If they were, that would be a benefit, though difficult to handle. They introduced the concept of low characteristic impedance cables 30 years before Max stumbled on this idea. Max even makes the same mistakes in his claims of impedance they do. In this case, two wrongs, do not make a right.

I found this on a website. It matches almost very closely the specifications I have found for the Townsend cables. I guess imitation is the sincerest form of flattery:

The configuration places the heavy, solid conductors only 0.003 inches apart. The cables are 0.4 or 0.8 inches wide, and only 0.04 inches thick. As thin as a penny.

I will assume you have no personal relationship with this company. There is no point getting riled up. I am not making up my statements. They are simple, but true.

See a picture of the Isolda cable at this link:  https://www.the-ear.net/review-hardware/townshend-audio-isolda-edct-speaker-cable-speaker-cable
Simple wrap around one conductor, loosely in the sheath.  I will point out one item.  The wires on both ends are about 25mm apart. If the goal was an impedance matched cables, the two ends will cause a failure. A similar failure would occur inside the speaker, typically wired willy-nilly.  The result may be effective, the reason appears beyond Max's understanding.

flaxxer
Thank You for starting this thread. The best aspect of Cabling, in that, there is a budget for every Audiophile.
Happy Listening!

And you are dead wrong about foils and Goertz speaker cables being the same ... not at all.
Goertz conductors are the thickness of a penny! There is your biggest problem. The two conductors are loosely stacked inside a sheath of thick plastic. Meaning they shift and move around against each other.
Proper foils are NOTHING like Goertz, and will not have the same tendency to create amplifier oscillation. They sound NOTHING alike either. You should really have some first hand experience before posting false information.

Don't be embarrassed for Max. He is a genius inventor and engineer, that designs other things like space propulsion systems for NASA. He knows more about technology than the entire forum's experience combined.
Don't knock him, just because his products DO work extremely, extremely well. He may have the single most researched and soundly engineered products offered to the hifi community. 

Maybe his cables are good. Maybe they are not. These are like the old Goertz cables, what from the 80's? Good idea, but watch the capacitance. Many a hobbyist has made these with double sided tape.

The article, which is by Max, not PS Audio. Frankly I am embarrassed for the author. I feel bad that he obviously spent so much time on a topic he does not understand in order to reach conclusions that are wrong. I assume his expertise is mechanical. I do like his platforms. Best to leave the electrical to those who understand it.

gerryah930,

"Humans vary tremendously in their ability to resolve musical details. It is not a bell shaped curve."

Why do you think it is not a bell-shaped curve? In particular after stating tremendous variation.

Humans vary tremendously in their ability to resolve musical details. It is not a bell shaped curve.

Actually it is. But where any given individual happens to be on that curve is by no means cast in stone. Listening is a learned behavior, a skill, and skills can be improved. 

Learn something about the human auditory system and stop focusing on hardware that is distal to the PNS and CNS.

You know the problem with using techno-babble like "distal to the PNS and CNS"? Every once in a while you run into someone who actually knows the terms, and knowing this knows word salad when he sees it.

Humans vary tremendously in their ability to resolve musical details. It is not a bell shaped curve. No device can provide an absolutely accurate measure of what will work for all listeners. There is no single audio component solution, including cables, that will work for everyone. Learn something about the human auditory system and stop focusing on hardware that is distal to the PNS and CNS.

You are right....

My best and thanks...

Humans vary tremendously in their ability to resolve musical details. It is not a bell shaped curve. No device can provide an absolutely accurate measure of what will work for all listeners. There is no single audio component solution, including cables, that will work for everyone. Learn something about the human auditory system and stop focusing on hardware that is distal to the PNS and CNS.

I know early Naim and some other British amps could get very tetchy with high cap cables, with dire warnings of incendiary consequences for the unwary.

Things now appear somewhat more sensible, but I still wonder whether moderate-longish runs of ribbons may prove problematic for some amps on the market. Can you identify any that you personally know that may potentially run into difficulties?

Anticables are a reasonably priced option I've enjoyed for years.   I've bought more expensive but have always gone back Anticables.  Their power cords were the first game changer for me as to my opinion about cables in general. 

Siltech used ribbon technology back in the early 90's with FT spc and FTM ic's.

G

Isn’t Tellurium using ribbons? Silversmith doesn’t stack their’s together but very very popular now.

I just wasted some time reading that PS Audio/Max T. link. Attempt at science, for sure, credible statements, surely not.

Any deviation from “flat” should be measurable and will most likely be audible as a tonal change in the audio signal.

No, most likely not. Do not assume.

"The experimental method has been described in detail, to enable researchers to repeat the tests in order to verify the conclusions."

Where has it been described? Not in the video link provided. At least not a comprehensive method.

"There is little doubt that speaker cables affect the sound of audio systems. Audiophiles have known this since the 1970s and there has been an ongoing debate ever since."

How come there is an ongoing debate when there is little doubt? Even "little doubt" is an exaggerated assumption.

"This analysis clearly describes the cause of audible differences between a range of cables, and the examples included demonstrate this effect."

If anything, it describes oscilloscope readings and not audible differences.

"This is analogous to the chaos in speaker cables where there is a mismatch between the cable and the speaker. This chaos is the main reason for the all-so-common brightness and hardness heard in audio systems."

Says who? Based on what? In whole test, nobody listened to anything.

It goes on and on with some marketing quasi-scientific mumbo-jumbo. It would not be accepted at the middle-school science fair.

"Same as the ones who know more EE than Max Townshend."

...who is famous for electric engineering of.....seismic isolation podium.

"I had over $100,000 worth of Tara labs RSC cable......I wish I had that money back."

You should have asked first.

There are people here so whack that if you say the sun rises in the east they will say you use tanning lotion therefore you lie. This is for them irrefutable logic, which if you argue makes you a shill. I wouldn't mind so much, as this kind of "thinking" means they wind up with exactly the crap level sound they deserve. But their ignorant comments may be misinterpreted by some innocent young audiophile who then winds up building their own crap system, and this perpetuates the audiophile crap cycle. 

Call out the crap. Break the cycle. Science is science, no matter the source. Attack the science if you must. That is after all the way it works. Attack the man though, only shows how pathetically little and weak your argument is. If you have nothing, itsjustme, move along please. 

@itsjustme.... no, I am not kidding. It's just you, LOL. The measurements were real. Arguing against scientific measurements is fruitless.

Haven't heard Ed Schilling mentioned in a while. I used to follow his breadboard tube amp building years ago. Guy is a genius!

Thanks for the post. I use thin UPOCC PTFE wire and it's excellent. The tape idea is welcomed and my next mini project.

Is Downsize Audio Cables still in business?  They don't seem to have a website anymore?

Are you kidding?
Did you read?
Did you join the discussion when this was posted directly here about a year ago?
This is a manufacturer "white paper" - aka infomercial.

errr April 1st...

@speakermaster, I agree. Goertz was not good in my systems. But Goertz is not foil either. I somewhat agree about foils working best with really good systems. But it’s not because they are difficult. They are so neutral they tell on upstream issues. And people mistakenly believe it is a bad match, or bad sounding cable. It will NOT hide any flaws or shortcomings.