No prob, millercarbon. I'm in California. In the 90s, I sold high end audio for years. Suits and ties.
We stocked Townshend products after a Rep tried to sell us on the newest snake oil ... until he left a seismic sink for us to play with. I threw it under the LP12 I kept in the store's front listening room. ALL the employees, and the owner stopped dead in their tracks when coming through the room. "What did you do to the big Vandetsteen system to make it sound so much better"? Was the question everyone inevitably asked, lol. We ordered a dozen of them for the store, and a dozen for inventory! So I've owned Max's products since 95 ish.
|
@millercarbon ... yes, I have an agenda against Max, LOL. I simply was trying to link the article PS audio provided. I was not trying to discredit Max for God's sakes. I own quite a bit of Townshend Audio products. I'm not trying to sell anything. I'm not trying to prove or discredit anything. I'm trying to show there is a test where this has been proven out. Regardless of who the original author is. Please do not try to make it out like I'm trying to start problems. I was trying to help. Anyone who doesn't subscribe to this chain of thoughts can go along listening to inferior sound as long as they want. I did for 33 years. I probably spent $300,000 cables over that time. At one time in the 90s oh, I had over $100,000 worth of Tara labs RSC cable. I had 12 ft quad wired full range speakers. This alone was $70,000. I wish I had that money back. I posted this hoping someone else may not have to spend that much money to find out what I did. Max , may you get all the glory and praise! I'm not looking for any! I'm just trying to post something helpful. |
@djones51 .... you can make a set of foil cables for under $50. I would definitely try it, if you're ever looking for different speakers cables. |
Just for the record, Max Townshend is a hero to me. I used his seismic sinks in the early 90s with great results, under a Linn lp12. In my opinion, his speaker isolation platforms are the best product ever designed as an accessory. Accelerometers do not lie. The difference a speaker makes on one of these platforms is astounding! Anytime you can take the resonant frequency of a vibrating loudspeaker, and take the vibrations to zero, you have changed the game for the better! Does anyone still believe I have anything against Max, or want to ride his coattails? I kind of doubt it, since I spent many thousands of dollars with his company. Some of you guys need something to do. The pandemic has definitely brought out your conspiracy theory mindset!
|
As far as my sloppy writing style ... did I mention I used to listen to music really loudly? LOL
Probably scrambled my memory of writing classes. Yes, we had those 45 years ago, lol. |
@mastering92 ... ALL cables are filters. And all cables can be used to tailor sound to a system. In the 80s and 90s, high-end equipment was not so neutral. We depended on cables to bring them into neutrality. The Stacked foil cables are simply LESS of a filter. PS audio test results prove this. I I have played with all of the Furutech cable, Oyaide, etc .... they are all just simple plain cables. They follow 50 years of audio cables design. They have the same flaws other similar cables have. The PS audio article we'll also show you this. It's all about the geometry. Once again it is all about the geometry. No cable of any kind can sound extremely good with the wrong geometry. This is due to simple LC and R measurements. Stack foils I have the best LC and R measurements |
@Paul and Ozzy. Josh closed Downsize, because he made the funds he needed to accomplish a financial goal. He also used to send out cables for testing. After losing a pair of very special silver/gold foil speaker cables to a well respected speaker builder/company. That brought his losses to almost $4000 in loaner cables that never came back. Lastly, he was getting so many orders, he could not get any sleep even. It was all more than he wanted. Josh still makes cables. But only on a referral type basis. Existing customers ... their friends ... and people who contact him with simple orders. No entire theater's wiring type sales. He enjoys doing it to help people. But not as a full time business.
As far as his suppliers, I can easily ask him. I know he bought the 97/3 silver gold from a European company that makes cables for anyone who pays them. He has a cousin that works there. Moved there after his service in the Air force was up, to marry and stayed there. He is a metallurgist by trade. He bought the Teflon adhesive tape from a US company that specializes in tapes only. He had round conductors pressed to foil by an American company too. I can find out the businesses I'm sure. I do know he used Wireworld connectors exclusively in the end. I remember him testing a Dingo boot box FULL of expensive RCA connectors on the same pair of interconnect cables for weeks and weeks. There were probably 60 or more pairs he was testing. I also remember the day I visited, to find he had made a pair of interconnect cables using only solder as conductors. He had them hanging in mid air between CD player and preamp, and preamp to amplifiers. No insulation at all, and Wireworld RCA connectors. I asked what in hell he was doing .... listening to different solders to see if one sounded better !! Crazy levels of experimentation of every small detail .... Cardas quad eutetic won, and is all he uses fyi.
I can put anyone in contact with Josh. But I don't think he wants public advertising anymore at all. He had a bad car accident, and was laid up for two years. He spent the entire time testing every facet of different cable designs and materials. His goal was to find out WHAT made cables sound differently from each other, and more importantly why. His main finding? Geometry. Cable geometry changes LCR more than anything else, according to his research. |
My lord .... I just did a Google search on foil speaker cables. At one time, only Magnan made them while Downsize did. Now there are a slew of foil cables, including DIY websites.
Word MUST have got out. I read a few articles and reviews .... almost all of the foil cables which are stacked tightly together, positive and negative runs that is, get rave reviews. Claims are more coherence, and clarity. With astonishing Dynamics, and almost perfect highs. This is the general sound advantages of foil cables. Beware though, all of them seem to use a heavy protective outer jacket. I remember Josh saying he ended up getting his tape made special, to keep it thinner than a human hair. This was one of the things that made downside cables better than the competitors. Josh believes in almost zero insulation, and came up with Brilliant Solutions for this build technique. He also used one of two connectors only. Zplug type hollow bananas, and Wireworld silver spades. He prefers Hollow bananas for everything. Claiming their low mass blows away WBT, Eichmann, and other low mass offerings in the industry. When I finally went with all downsize cables oh, I got rid of my nordost Valhalla cables throughout my whole system. I made a ton of money selling those used! |
@speakermaster, I agree. Goertz was not good in my systems. But Goertz is not foil either. I somewhat agree about foils working best with really good systems. But it’s not because they are difficult. They are so neutral they tell on upstream issues. And people mistakenly believe it is a bad match, or bad sounding cable. It will NOT hide any flaws or shortcomings. |
Nope. The science is solid as it gets. No opinions necessary either way. Just the science. Goertz is NOT foil. It is very thick conductors in loose sleeves. Not a good example. Goertz is what has caused a lot of system mis matches. |
@itsjustme.... no, I am not kidding. It's just you, LOL. The measurements were real. Arguing against scientific measurements is fruitless. |
And you are dead wrong about foils and Goertz speaker cables being the same ... not at all.
Goertz conductors are the thickness of a penny! There is your biggest problem. The two conductors are loosely stacked inside a sheath of thick plastic. Meaning they shift and move around against each other.
Proper foils are NOTHING like Goertz, and will not have the same tendency to create amplifier oscillation. They sound NOTHING alike either. You should really have some first hand experience before posting false information. |
Don't be embarrassed for Max. He is a genius inventor and engineer, that designs other things like space propulsion systems for NASA. He knows more about technology than the entire forum's experience combined.
Don't knock him, just because his products DO work extremely, extremely well. He may have the single most researched and soundly engineered products offered to the hifi community. |
@ pesky_wabbit. I’m sorry but once again this is incorrect. The width of the conductors combined by the given gauge tell us these are as thick as a dime or penny. This is not foils. This is not similar. And people will not get a taste of foils like this at all. The reason foils work like they do is how they are as thin as a human hair, while retaining the gauge. If you made the cables you’re suggesting, you will end up with something closer to Goertz cables. |
I thought I was going to post some photos of cool foil cables, but I see photos aren't happening here, oops! I miss a lot in my old age, lol |
Josh and Downsize audio is still around. He makes runs of cables every few years or so. He is just reclusive, and suffers with his health. He recently made cables for several people on the forums. Maybe one of them will give their thoughts on the subject of stacked conductor foil cables. That and almost zero insulation or skin effect is what Josh is all about. And the stupid high purity conductors. |
Being friends with Josh, I have been to his shop many times. He probably has 30 or more cable brands there. It is a dream for anyone wanting to compare cables of every kind. I own Downsize cables because I've heard them best $20+ speaker cables. I replaced my source's $3500 power cable with his $400 power cables. Now I have 7 of those power cables. They simply sound good. The science is above me. But my ears don't lie to me.
Josh has a policy where he simply won't tell anyone what to expect to hear with his cables. He doesn't want to plant any pre notions to lead to placebo expectations.
Also he wants to see of the feedback he gets has consistencies. He values finding out if others are hearing what he does. You notice he does not advertise or visit forums. He really enjoys helping people get better sound, but only when approached about it. He isn't egotistical, and doesn't want or need to prove anything. Ive seen him send a pair of interconnects to someone desperate to argue with him. He went silent and sent them out unpaid. He preferred it to the stress. He's disabled and spends most of his time obsessing about what improves sq. And ways to make it happen. He's doing it for him. But will share with people.
I think this leads to better sounding products. He designed them via experimenting.
I just think it's interesting any individual can compete with and beat companies with R&D depts and deep pockets.
Those of you handy should try and build similar foil cables to his and try them. The only difference at all is the conductor purity and special teflon tapes for conductor insulation. |
|
