Cable upgrades

Thanks @soix , @decooney , @audphile1 

And while we're on the subject of cable fun, wondering what your thoughts are for these PCs:

Acoustic Zen Tsunami plus
Audience Forte f3
XLO Reference 3 series

Let the games continue!

Best, JAMES.

I’m less well versed in the PC universe, but Triode Wire Labs PCs get nice reviews and he offers a generous in-home trial, and since he sells direct they offer good value and well worth trying I’d think.  Just one easy option to consider FWIW.

Thanks @soix   Will keep an eye out for Triode Labs. As I’m in the frosty north, not sure I can take advantage of the in-home trial?  I was considering the Audience and XLO PCs mostly as a low-cost decent entry point — and they’re currently available from audio connexion (local company) at a discounted price (although not returnable without a restocking fee)

best, JAMES

@soix  I’m demoing the Neotech MkIIIs this weekend. First impressions out of the box — nice cable, slight shift towards brighter side, but seems a touch less mid/low bass slam.  Not sure yet, giving them 50+ hours before any serious decision-making — but at the moment,  in my system, I’m leaning more in the direction of the MKIs (which are all OCC copper, as opposed to 20%silver coating W MKIIIs)

But time will tell!

best, JAMES

Hi all:

Cardas has confirmed that the cables are authentic Cardas cables.

They also did 'Test, clean and repair the mid/low bass attenuated signal.', so it will be interesting to see if I hear any improvement, in my system, when they are delivered.

I figure, worse-case scenario, I can resell them with confidence, and hopefully recoup most/all of my costs to go through this process.

Best, JAMES.

That’s great! Cardas customer support is solid!

On another cable-related note, given the relative level of my system components, I'm wondering if there is a target price-range that I should be aiming for in my cable upgrade quest?

The system is: Luminary's U2 to Benchmark DAC3 HGC to Benchmark AHB2 amp, to ATC SCM40 speakers.  (I should also note, that the AHB2 is fed by a dedicated 20A 3-wire 10-gauge circuit, and the Lumin/DAC3 are plugged into a PS Audio Duet)

I'm curious what @ghdprentice @decooney  @soix , and of course, @audphile1  would have to say.  :-)

Seems every manufacturer has a range of product, and it seems part of the task to untangle all the options, is to match the relative levels of all components in the system...  Is there a general rule of thumb worth following?  

Thanks in advance for all advice.

Best, JAMES.

James…wait for the Cardas to come back. See how you like them and go from there.
I’ll be 100% honest - I am not a fan of benchmark sound. It’s not bad by any means. It just never draws me in. I always think I’m missing a tube component somewhere in the chain.
As far as cables are concerned….I had Acoustic Zen Absolute Copper with the benchmark 3 hgc in my system and thought it was a good combination. I would also recommend checking out AZ Matrix Ref II. I would not recommend AZ Silver Ref between DAC 3 and amp. It might be a bit much.
What I’m thinking though, since you have Kimber speaker cables, why not try Kimber XLRs. The silver/copper hybrid are really good cables. Seek out a used pair of Kimber KS1126.
Nordost Norse line is worth looking into as well.
All boils down to synergy.

I just read this sad thread where a bunch of people who had never heard they OPs system, seen the cables, or heard the cables convinced him to try to return them and then suspect they were counterfeit because they didn't sound right.  Please apologise to the fellow for all the trouble you've caused him.

The original seller was right.  You buy cables and if you don't like them, resell them.  I do it all the time.  Not a big deal. 

Jerry

@carlsbad2  Definitely a cautionary tale, for sure.  I’m glad the OP didn’t make any identifying information public!  And, you’re right, an apology is definitely warranted.

Navigating this whole cable thing is not for the faint of heart!

Best, JAMES

@jimboman JAMES, you did the right thing sending the cables to Cardas.

1. Validated authenticity, for yourself, the prior seller, and any future buyers.

2. Cardas "repaired the mid/low bass attenuated signal" for you. Issues resolved.

3. Re-evaluate them after the repair, over 30 days, and decide from there.

Beware of counterfeits, see the Cardas website for more information.

Audio cables/wires typically have some dominant characteristics, characteristics which they tend to impart to any system. Cardas tend to be warm… some very warm. Transparent and Straight Wire tend to be very transparent, imparting no net difference. Whether one sounds good on your system will depend on its components and your values. Matching cables to systems can be reliably recommended on this basis if the person knows the change they want. But Transparent cables will not warm up a cool system, and Cardas will not cool off a system.

Some cables have little impact on some or all sound characteristics, and the nuances that are changed can vary from system to system. Often the change might be fitting the values of the system to the user.

But in this case the effect of a well known cable was contrary to the known major characteristic.

Thanks @ghdprentice.  Would you mind commenting on the question of price range relative to total system value?  There are so many price levels of cables, I'm wondering if there was a range commensurate with my system?  I've read your comments in other threads regarding this concept, and would find your guidance helpful.

Thanks,

JAMES. 

James,

Sure. The rule of thumb is 10% the total of a component or system. It is not hard and fast. Because while wires have general characteristics and overall with additional cost they sound better… generally lower noise floor, greater dynamics and transparency… they are in your system. Each system is unique and will perform differently in each. The better the system, typically the bigger impact… looking at it as if it is a scientific instrument, the higher quality, the more sensitive. so a percentage makes sense… at least as a starting place.

Also, maybe one component has a very delicate sound and the interconnect is masking it… then it can have a very out sized effect.

Ten percent is only a place to start. I have had interconnects that cost 30% the value of the unit and were worth it, because I could not trade up components and get that sound quality boost. So, they must clearly pay for themselves in terms of sound quality improvements. This is why this tends to be a lifetime pursuit. To get good enough to know the value of sound quality among components and accessories and know your own values is a complex and long termed pursuit.

Buying used can get more impact. The Cable Company offers lots at roughly 1/2 price. Great was to start. I bought older Transparent to verify these were good solution and then bought new and higher level during a system upgrade.

@ghdprentice do you go off a price for a minimum run?
In example, minimum run is 1m and it’s $850. I need 2m and that’s $1100 which is 10% of the component price?

Personally I base the ratio on a cost of min length run.

I don’t think the generality is intended to be anywhere that specific, it’s more a question of are you fishing in the right hole. That said, yes, that makes sense. Then there is the big question of do these have the right tonal balance / synergy with your system.

The way I use it is a starting point for what I am going to plan on spending… so if my component is say $12K I’ll start looking in the $1.2K range… used. I will do everything I can to get the very best (I do lots of research on the qualities of the wires and hopefully try them).

My most recent upgrades have been from a knowledge base of forty years.. so, I knew what different brands sounded like and also the improvement in my preferred brand (Transparent) and so I bought all new. The most recent series upgrade was very significant.

@ghdprentice oh of course. Agreed.
Tonal balance and synergy wins. Price point is just a general coordinate.

Trying out Nordost Heimdall 2 on my Aurender N200 now. Lower than the 10% point of reference. Not an endgame by any means as well but a very pleasant surprise and a sneak peak into what Nordost power cords can do on a streamer. 

@ghdprentice thanks for the rule of thumb info. A very helpful guideline.

So, for example, looking for PC and USB for my Lumin U2 ($7,500 Cdn) I’d target cables in the $600-800 used range? And would that spend be for each cable, or both together? And would this apply for most components, given that they would need both AC and interconnects of some kind?

@audphile1 What PC were you using before the Heimdall? I’m researching an upgrade from my AQ Coffee USB…and also considering upgrades from stock PCs…

Thanks,

JAMES

Transparent Gen 6 Plus level will give you the lions share of what their cables can do for a system.  Do a trial direct through them…if music is your passion!

James…I used Furutech FPS-032n power cable on the Aurender N200. I also tried AQ Tornado. For USB I’m using AQ Diamond and for the Ethernet, Purist Audio. Nordost Heimdall 2 is completely different than the AQ Tornado. Nordost and Audioquest in general sound completely different. I ended up liking the Tornado on Bricasti M3 DAC, Heimdall 2 on N200 and Nordost Frey 2 power cable on Pass XP-22 preamp. Best top to bottom balance so far with low noise floor. My interconnects are Nordost Tyr 2 XLRs so there’s a bit of synergy going on there.
As with everything, there are compromises but in the case of Nordost it’s not anything significant - there are more positive attributes than things I don’t like. 
To answer your question about the spend, my approach is for each cable. But you have to obviously try and see what works. 

OP,

Honestly the way I do wires is in phases. Speaker cables and interconnects and stop. I will use the 10% as a guide on those. [understand, I have all sorts of wires laying around from the past 50 years of audiophilia]. When I have finished, I will do additional moving speakers / room treatments. Then I will attack the power cords. By this stage I know my system really well and have recovered financially. So, I will then see how much effect power cords have. So, I guess I have always added those later outside of the rest of the budget.

However, the amplifier power cord can often make one of the largest impacts… up there with the speaker wires. If you make sure you get a big sonic impact from each purchase then if you end up spending more it is OK.

@ghdprentice  That is excellent advice re process.  Thanks for that.

I'm trying to take a page out of your book now...after plunging down the XLR IC rabbit hole, I've decided to take a breath and live for awhile, with a couple of options I've amassed.

I've got the Neotech 3001 MkIs (all copper OCC) that I quite like.  So far, they have bested the Audio Sensibility Statement SE and their own Neotech 3001 MkIIIs (20% silver), in my system, for my ears/tastes.

And, I received my Cardas Golden Reference cables back from Bandon OR today.  They did an amazing job refurbishing them!  They put new Cardas wraps on the ends, and in so-doing, brought them into this decade, haha!  They are now certified, and come with paperwork, so if I decide they don't work in my system, I should have a much better time reselling them.

I'm going to live with them for a month, see how they settle in.  If the low bass/slam is still missing, I'll revert to the Neotech MkIs.  (I may also experiment with some AZ Matrix Reference IIs, if a pair comes up on the used market...'cuz I'm a glutton for punishment, it seems!)

Once I get through this phase, I've got next on my agenda -- an upgrade of my AQ Coffee USB cable, and some experimenting with upgraded PCs for the streamer and DAC, and possibly the AQ NRG-4 on the amp.

Thanks again for all the guidance.  I really appreciate the insight and perspective you and others have offered.

Best, JAMES.

Here's some pics of the rejuvenated Golden Reference XLRs.

Now let's see how they sound!

JAMES

Awesome! Looks like they did a nice job and now you can evaluate them and if they don’t work out, you have a great set of cables certified by cardas that will be easy to sell. 
Just give the cables a few days to settle by running a signal thru them before you judge. 

@audphile1 Copy that!  Will give 'em lots of overnight burn-in, with a resting period during the day as well.

Best, JAMES.

No rest needed just keep running signal thru them.

Not to take away from your great advice @audphile1 , but it’s so interesting how many different opinions there are re running in process:

Cardas says you’re basically starting from scratch every time you move/plug/unplug a cable — Triode Wire Labs recommends an equal playing/resting period (6-10 hrs on, 6-10 hrs off) — Audio Sensibility says minimum 100 hrs on their cables before critical listening…and on it goes!

And to top it off — I’m listening to the Cardas Golden Reference now — not sure what they did at the factory besides reskinning the connectors, but — they’re sounding pretty darn nice!  Maybe not the best I’ve heard in my system, but much better than they seemed to me before sending them in. And they haven’t had any run-in yet!  Crazy!

At any rate, it’s not going to be a hardship to have them in the system for a month before I decide whether they’re staying or going. And that’s a great position to be in.  And I wouldn’t be in this position without the help you and others have provided through this thread  Much appreciated!

Best, JAMES

😊

Hahaha I know. 

There are to many good cables to suggest just a few. So I will just go with an unknown oddball brand that can sound as good as $2000 to $3000 cables for $100 to $200 used.

TImeportal is a copper silver wire. The heavy speaker cables were $2000 but can be found for $200, interconnects were $1000 but sell for $100 to $200, power cables were $1000 to $2000 now sell $150 to $200. Problem is they are not easy to sell, but they sound really good even for there retail price.

I know it’s a odd ball suggestion just thought I would throw it out there. They are more like buying a better component than just buying wire to make things sound a little better. 

They have really good bass and dig deep for information. I preferred them to my Acoustic Zen silver reference and some other more expensive cables. The Timeportals were more natural much better bass but could dig as deep for info and detail as AZ. 
 

They also sold under VALABS and King Cables back in the day. I still have some in the closet but will keep them there good enough to keep around. If I was on a budget or not I would check them out. 

I would do an entire loom of Synergistic research SRX 

@pennfootball71 not sure SR is a match with Benchmark. My experience with SR cables is they’re slightly hot up top. That’s most likely going to be too much of a good thing in the OP’s system. 

@pennfootball71 @paulcreed Thanks for the recommends. There certainly are a huge number of manufacturers out there, and they each have many lines to choose from. Seems like, at a certain point, one has to just commit to a solution and enjoy the music.

@audphile1 My limited experience with the 20% silver coated Neotech MkIIIs was exactly as you suggest with my Benchmark rig. It’s amazing how a little emphasis can be too much in the long-term. I found those cables to be interesting at first blush, but ultimately preferred the all copper. Of course, another manufacturer’s silver cables (AZ, for example) might be the perfect fit. Only one way to find out, unfortunately!

Best, JAMES

James…I would stay away from AZ Silver Ref II in that system unless you want to thin it all out.

I’ve gone through the entire AZ cable line with different configurations of Silver and Copper.
 

In my experience the Silver Ref II work best between source and preamp, with Matrix Ref II or Absolute Copper between preamp and amp. That allows for some of the not so great attributes of silver ref to be balanced out by the copper downstream. The most recent use case in my system was the Silver Ref II between the Sutherland 20/20 phono amp and my preamp, with Absolute Copper between preamp and amp. Great combo.
I’ve also used Silver Ref II / Matrix II and Silver / Silver. 
I’m pretty certain with benchmark DAC driving the amp(s) the Silver Ref II is not the right cable. 

Just caught this thread, interesting! 

Just heard back from the seller.  He does not want to offer a refund.  He figures I just don't like the cable, so I can simply resell it.  I told him that the problem is the cable doesn't work as it should.  And therefore, I can't resell it, in good faith.

I also suggested that if I send it to Cardas and they determine it's faulty or fake, then I'd have to pursue a fraud claim.  Although, that's probably not gonna bear much fruit.  So I asked him again for a refund, and offered to cover the cost of return shipping.  We'll see what he comes back with.  My guess is he won't comply.

I'd send it to Cardas, as many have suggested, but my gut is that it's not counterfeit, but rather, old, and perhaps damaged in some way.  And by the time I pay for shipping, validation, re-termination (assuming it's okay...which doesn't make sense, given its sonic signature), shipping back, duty/taxes/brokerage fees etc -- just so I can resell it -- it's doubtful if it would be worth my time.

It's tough for us being across the border- I bought a cable and recently returned it direct from a manufacturer with a 30 day return policy, and it still cost me over $100 in shipping/duties/taxes, and that is with them substantially de-valuing the product for customs purposes! There must be a way to claim the taxes back if it is returned, but is it worth my hassle? There wasn't even an option in the customs docs for "returned product" so I checked off the "warranty/repair" option when sending it back, so hopefully there isn't another broker charge on their end I will have to pay for as well. 

I am curious as heck to investigate who this might have been you purchased this from- shows pretty bad if you are confronted as possibly selling a counterfeit product, and not giving someone their money back. Myself, I would absolutely refund the money and take the product back as opposed to having that bad feedback and not being able to sleep knowing you ripped someone off, whether it was known or not- but from your response above when the person was confronted it almost seems like they knew. If they said "just resell it", essentially pass the problem onto someone else, that shows alot about their integrity, or lack of it. For sure I would follow up with this person if it turns out to be a fake, and provide the necessary feedback so the next purchaser is made aware of that possibility from this seller. 

Update us when you hear- I am dying to find out! 

@audphile1

In my experience the Silver Ref II work best between source and preamp, with Matrix Ref II or Absolute Copper between preamp and amp. That allows for some of the not so great attributes of silver ref to be balanced out by the copper downstream

That is so weird- good timing with that post as I just did this last night!

I have Silver Ref.II from my DAC to my Marchand, and Absolute between the Marchand and the high channel Apollon amp (no pre)

I just flipped them yesterday for the first time, and yeah, it was not as good. I am still trying to put my finger on why; the detail was still there, but it was not as open- like more detail in the body, but not as much extension. I wish I had another absolute I could plug in place of the Silver Ref to see if that is better or worse?

Have you tried absolute/absolute source/pre/amp- ? 

@mclinnguy Got the cables back from Cardas yesterday. They are now certified and have been re-terminated with updated sleeves. They look brand new!  I’ve got them in my system and will give them a month before deciding whether they stay or get resold.

As you pointed out, the whole exercise cost about $150Cdn. But if I do decide to sell, I can assure the potential purchaser that the cables are ready for prime time.

Best, JAMES

@audphile1 Thanks for detailing the AZ setup. If I head in that direction, I’ll probably start with the Matrix Ref IIs — although, I may add a preamplifier to the chain sooner than later. Might stay in the Benchmark stack, and get an LA4, if a good one comes up on the used market.

Thanks again for your support. I really appreciate it.

Best, JAMES

My suggestion to you is if you want to open up your system a little bit more change all the cables to OCC single crystal which is what audio sensibility uses, far superior to anything OFC.

@mclinnguy ..Got the cables back from Cardas yesterday. They are now certified and have been re-terminated with updated sleeves.

I've had a few older pairs reterminated a few years back, and not only are the ends a little different, the newer process  to apply the termination is different too. Was informed beforehand this changes the end result with a little more resolution across the entire frequency range.  Some of the older cables with a stiff outer jacket and dielectric inside do change a bit after they are uncoiled and set in place for more than 14-21 days.

George Cardas talks about tension release and some info about any type of static electricity that goes away over time, after being set in place and played for a while. I've retested this theory several times with reintroducing old cables coiled up stored away, and multiple pairs of brand new day-1 vs. 60 day used cables, swapping them out for the next new pair of the exact same cable, and having to start the process all over again. The newer version (more pliable) cables seem less effected compared to some of the old version (stiff) outer jacket cables, or the ones with a stiffer dielectric inside, I don't know. In all cases, I always give it the first 14-21 days, taking notes, and listen again at 30 days to compare fwtw.   

@mclinnguy yup - two sets of absolute copper was my configuration before I switched to Nordost Tyr 2. I also had every AZ power cord - el Nino, Tsunami, Krakatoa, Gargantua.

@jimboman 

I see that- I don't know what happened, I thought I went through the whole thread this morning but I didn't see those posts... strange- I feel like an idiot, and I'm sure I look like one too 🤪

Anyway good news. Strange how the "low range" needed repairing- any idea how old they were? I guess that is why they are getting away from solder and are using high force clamping.  I think you will recoup the $150 will that bill of authenticity and as someone posted before: "a clean bill of health" 

Now we are interested to hear how that bass compares to how they were before 😉

 

 

magnuman

155 posts

02-13-2024 at 10:30am

My suggestion to you is if you want to open up your system a little bit more change all the cables to OCC single crystal which is what audio sensibility uses, far superior to anything OFC.

That’s a blanket statement. There are too many variables that can render this incorrect.

@magnuman I’ll second the statement above by @audphile1

OCC and OFC are general terms used in the industry and varies by vendor, design, and metallurgy used. For example, Cardas places their own service provider mined and drawn "Cardas Grade 1 pure copper" and process, as illustrated. Under a a visusual microscope found here. Just gotta listen to the cables and decide what’s best for you.  What OP @jimboman has now is Cardas Grade 1 pure copper. 

decooney,

first of all OCC and OFC are not general terms you should do your research a little bit better, OCC means ohno continuous cast, which was invented by Dr Ohno, and the process makes it so there's only one single crystal in the wire, The crystals are 125 m long so when you make interconnects or speaker wire you only get one single crystal and no crystal barriers in the wire, OFC means oxygen free copper and that has 1500 crystal barriers per foot which are little fractures in the wire that the signal has to jump across that's why OCC single crystal wire sounds so much better than OFC and that was proven over 50 years ago already.

audphile1,

actually that's not a blanket statement it was proven over 50 years ago that OCC single crystal wire is far superior for audio than anything else on the market including OFC you can't change the law of physics, OFC wire has 1500 crystal barriers per foot OCC has one crystal 125 m long, Crystal barriers are little fractures in the wire that the signal has to jump across and it makes things bright hard cold dull any one of those things or all of those things with OCC single crystal wire you don't have any of those problems because the signal can flow unimpeded.

this is a PS to add on to what I already said,

Neotech now makes rectangular OCC single crystal wire which is even better than the round, I upgraded to the Sahara which is their flagship line of copper cable from round OCC and you could hear how much better it was, It's not cheap though, The Amazon is there single crystal silver and it's twice the price of the copper.

@magnuman ok you got it buddy. I won’t be starting a pointless argument with you. 

someone should call George and let him know. 

audphile,

I agree it would be pointless on your part cuz you don't know what you're talking about.