Cable upgrades

Thanks @ghdprentice.  Would you mind commenting on the question of price range relative to total system value?  There are so many price levels of cables, I'm wondering if there was a range commensurate with my system?  I've read your comments in other threads regarding this concept, and would find your guidance helpful.

Thanks,

JAMES. 

@ghdprentice thanks for the rule of thumb info. A very helpful guideline.

So, for example, looking for PC and USB for my Lumin U2 ($7,500 Cdn) I’d target cables in the $600-800 used range? And would that spend be for each cable, or both together? And would this apply for most components, given that they would need both AC and interconnects of some kind?

@audphile1 What PC were you using before the Heimdall? I’m researching an upgrade from my AQ Coffee USB…and also considering upgrades from stock PCs…

Thanks,

JAMES

@soix  I’m demoing the Neotech MkIIIs this weekend. First impressions out of the box — nice cable, slight shift towards brighter side, but seems a touch less mid/low bass slam.  Not sure yet, giving them 50+ hours before any serious decision-making — but at the moment,  in my system, I’m leaning more in the direction of the MKIs (which are all OCC copper, as opposed to 20%silver coating W MKIIIs)

But time will tell!

best, JAMES

@soix Yessiree.  I'm a frost-bitten Canadian boy. 😎

Thanks @soix   Will keep an eye out for Triode Labs. As I’m in the frosty north, not sure I can take advantage of the in-home trial?  I was considering the Audience and XLO PCs mostly as a low-cost decent entry point — and they’re currently available from audio connexion (local company) at a discounted price (although not returnable without a restocking fee)

best, JAMES

Hi again:

An update on my audio journey:  I purchased a set of Cardas Golden Reference XLR interconnects, and after a week of running them in my system, I'm sad to report that these cables were not a good fit.  While they brightened the top end, and seemed to punctuate the mids to create a bigger soundstage, the mid/lower bass frequencies were hampered.  I kept hoping the cables would settle in, and the low end slam would return, or that my ears would adjust, but...

I ended up putting the AS Testament SEs back in the system, and the frequency balance that I enjoy returned immediately.  The process did help me realize that I like the way the AS cables sound -- and this was a huge benefit.  If I can find a local dealer who will let me demo some higher end cables before purchase, I'd be open to trying again.  But making a blind purchase and hoping it will be a good fit in my system -- especially as one goes higher up the price spectrum -- seems unwise.

So, lots to learn in the upgrade journey.  Perhaps my number one lesson, is to make sure one enjoys the system they already have.

Best, JAMES

@ghdprentice I wondered the same thing, as this was certainly not the sonic effect I was expecting.  The seller was a reputable Canuck Audio Mart member, but he may have not known if they were legit or not.  The lettering on the cables has all but disappeared, except for the stencil on the XLR sheaths.  I've read on the Cardas site that the only way to know if it's counterfeit is to cut the cable open to check the internals.  That's an exercise I'm probably not going to attempt at this point.

@audphile1 Thanks for your suggestion, but the DAC jumpers have been properly set for output matching going directly to the AHB2, as per the manual; and have been this way since initial setup.  And yes, the lower bass didn't appear over the course of a week of running in, so I doubt that more hours would make a difference.

It's definitely a steep part of my learning curve, thus my reticence to purchase without demo, going forward.

Best, JAMES.

Hello all:

An update on my cable journey:  I purchased some Audio Sensibility Statement SE XLRs, and am in the process of running them in (Steven suggests at least 100 hrs).  Out of the box, I'd say they are capable ICs, closer to the 'front row' in terms of presentation.  I like some things they do, and others not so much...but am finding they are improving as they burn in.  Time will tell.

I've tracked down a few other options, based on the recommendations given.  Ranked by cost, from highest to lowest:

1) Cardas Clear Cygnus (recommended by Brian at Cardas)
2) Cardas Gold Presence (which may be an older but similar match to the Cardas Cygnus line)
3) Acoustic Zen Matrix Reference (haven't found the Series II used yet...but there is a pair of the first gen on CAM)
4) XLO Reference 3

I haven't found a dealer close to me to arrange a demo, and am considering taking the plunge and purchasing one other set (used), which I can compare in house with the Statement SEs.  Of course, I have 30 days to return the SEs, but would have to resell any others.

What's your take on the selections mentioned above?  I get the impression that any of them could be worthwhile test candidates.

Best, JAMES.

@audphile1 Yup, USB using the 'direct' port, with an Audioquest Coffee USB cable. 😊

Hi @audphile1  Unfortunately, it was a cash transaction.

Just heard back from the seller.  He does not want to offer a refund.  He figures I just don't like the cable, so I can simply resell it.  I told him that the problem is the cable doesn't work as it should.  And therefore, I can't resell it, in good faith.

I also suggested that if I send it to Cardas and they determine it's faulty or fake, then I'd have to pursue a fraud claim.  Although, that's probably not gonna bear much fruit.  So I asked him again for a refund, and offered to cover the cost of return shipping.  We'll see what he comes back with.  My guess is he won't comply.

I'd send it to Cardas, as many have suggested, but my gut is that it's not counterfeit, but rather, old, and perhaps damaged in some way.  And by the time I pay for shipping, validation, re-termination (assuming it's okay...which doesn't make sense, given its sonic signature), shipping back, duty/taxes/brokerage fees etc -- just so I can resell it -- it's doubtful if it would be worth my time.

Best, JAMES.

@audphile1 You're probably right.  Makes sense to at least find out if the cable is salvageable.  Then maybe I can use it in my system, ha!

I think the next step will be to reach out to Josh or Brian at Cardas and see what they say before I ship.

Many thanks for all your encouragement and support in this process.

Best, JAMES.

@ghdprentice Thanks for your help and thoughts.  Much appreciated.  I'll definitely report back.  It's a good learning experience for me.

@decooney I've got all digits crossed, that they can rehabilitate the Goldens.  And, as you say, if they don't work in my system, I will be able to sell them with confidence.

Best, JAMES.

Sent in the Cardas Return Authorization form.  Aiming to connect via phone this week before sending cables.

JAMES

Hello @jwpstayman Thanks for the quick and detailed reply.  Will check out the Synergistic cables you mentioned.

Only reason for irregular XLR lengths would be that my DAC/pre stack would be on the right side, and mono blocks would be one on left, one on right, in order to be equidistant from each speaker.  I know, it's not much of a reason for not just coiling up the longer XLR...

Best, JAMES.

Thanks @decooney for the Cardas/cable advice. Much appreciated.  And @williewonka for the links. Will check them out.

i placed an order for some Audio Sensibility Statement SE interconnects, as a first step, given that I’m familiar with their ‘house sound’. They have a 30-day refund policy, so it will give me some time to run the cables in and hear what they do in my system.

Seems a certain amount of willingness to experiment is par for the course!

Best, JAMES

@audphile1  thanks for your reply.  I had a Lumin U2 mini w SBooster running into the DAC3 HGC, but have now upgraded to the Lumin U2.

Regarding preamps, I’ve been considering getting a ‘full stack’ from Benchmark by adding their LA4 preamp. Hard to know if the addition of a preamp would open up the top end in a non-fatiguing manner, and improve the ‘flatness’ you mentioned?

As an experiment, I put the DAC3 into unity gain mode and tried using the LeedH setting on the Lumin as a volume control, but it didn’t seem to be any better (and no worse) than using the DAC3 for the same purpose.

Best, JAMES

Thanks @soix for the recommendation. I read your posts and @ghdprentice posts with great interest/respect for your opinions. Many thanks.

I’ll keep an eye out for a used pair of Silver Reference IIs. In the meantime, I am enjoying getting to know the Testament SEs.  I admit, it’s a bit of an ‘experience-expander’ for me. I’m beginning to see how improvement of system components have created a finer ‘sonic resolution’ which enables me to discern strengths and weaknesses of all parts of the chain.

I’m grateful to folks sharing their knowledge and experience. It’s a great help!

Best, JAMES

Thanks @soix   Good to know.  Is there a good place you’d recommend to look for AZ cables (other than Audiogon)?  Not sure, but is AZ still in business?

Best, JAMES

@soix thanks for the information and clarification of AZ status. I was only wondering because a local dealer said the cables are ‘pretty rare’ nowadays…perhaps he was referring to his experience in the used market in Canada.

Will keep an eye out for a pair of Silver Reference XLR, either generation.

Best, JAMES

Hi @audphile1   Thanks for your thoughtful reply.  I believe the Golden Reference cables are previous gen Cardas cables, and as such, this pair has had two owners before me.  So I didn’t think burn-in would change their signature much.

That said, I wondered if they would benefit from a running in period, so that’s why I gave them a week trial.  Maybe it wasn’t enough?   (I’d say, to my ears, they improved slightly during the week, but the lower bass was still substantially attenuated)

When I switched back to the Audio Sensibility cables, they just sounded ‘complete’ to me.  It was the opposite of my expectations.  And it would have been much easier to return the AS cables, as they come with a 30-day return policy.

I learned a few valuable lessons in the process, though.  Switching the two sets of cables gave me a fresh perspective, helping me properly judge the effect of the change on my system.  And I also learned that I don’t want to pursue gear that I can’t evaluate in some fashion before purchase.

Best, JAMES

@decooney I have the pics from the CAM ad...not sure how to post them, but I'll PM you a link to the original ad, as I don't want to use this forum to call him out publicly.

There was no original paperwork/container boxes with the cables.  Perhaps I should've known better...

@audphile1 I still think the seller probably didn't know the status of the cables.  For what it's worth, he's got 165 transactions, and 100% positive feedback.  I'm really not sure I can hold him responsible if they are counterfeit.  It's more my lack of due diligence, if that is the case.  If they aren't fake, then I don't know what Cardas can do to satisfy what I heard in my system..?

Thanks again for your help.  I really appreciate it.

Best, JAMES.

I reached out to the seller, explaining the situation, and requesting a refund.

🤞

Hello again:

Sent off the Cardas Golden Refs to Cardas today.  Fingers crossed that they can certify them, or better yet, repair them.

In other cable news, I demoed a pair of Neotech 3001 MkIs (all OCC copper) over the weekend, from a local dealer.  Compared to the Audio Sensibility Statement SE XLRs, they were very similar in mid/upper frequency response, but the bottom end was more full and weighty -- not in a bloated way, but rather a musical one -- and the soundstage was a bit better defined/wide.

So I decided to stick with the Neotechs and return the Audio Sensibility cables, as I'm within the 30-day return period.

I am also going to be demoing the Neotech 3001 MKIIIs soon, which have about 20% added silver.  If they sound good/better than the MkI cables, I'll bump the Mk1s for use in my office system.

Hopefully, this will satisfy the interconnect upgrade itch for now.  Then, I'll turn my attention to power cords, 'cuz heck, cable-swapping is so much fun!

Best, JAMES.

Thanks @soix , @decooney , @audphile1 

And while we're on the subject of cable fun, wondering what your thoughts are for these PCs:

Acoustic Zen Tsunami plus
Audience Forte f3
XLO Reference 3 series

Let the games continue!

Best, JAMES.

Hi all:

Cardas has confirmed that the cables are authentic Cardas cables.

They also did 'Test, clean and repair the mid/low bass attenuated signal.', so it will be interesting to see if I hear any improvement, in my system, when they are delivered.

I figure, worse-case scenario, I can resell them with confidence, and hopefully recoup most/all of my costs to go through this process.

Best, JAMES.

On another cable-related note, given the relative level of my system components, I'm wondering if there is a target price-range that I should be aiming for in my cable upgrade quest?

The system is: Luminary's U2 to Benchmark DAC3 HGC to Benchmark AHB2 amp, to ATC SCM40 speakers.  (I should also note, that the AHB2 is fed by a dedicated 20A 3-wire 10-gauge circuit, and the Lumin/DAC3 are plugged into a PS Audio Duet)

I'm curious what @ghdprentice @decooney  @soix , and of course, @audphile1  would have to say.  :-)

Seems every manufacturer has a range of product, and it seems part of the task to untangle all the options, is to match the relative levels of all components in the system...  Is there a general rule of thumb worth following?  

Thanks in advance for all advice.

Best, JAMES.

@carlsbad2  Definitely a cautionary tale, for sure.  I’m glad the OP didn’t make any identifying information public!  And, you’re right, an apology is definitely warranted.

Navigating this whole cable thing is not for the faint of heart!

Best, JAMES

Not to take away from your great advice @audphile1 , but it’s so interesting how many different opinions there are re running in process:

Cardas says you’re basically starting from scratch every time you move/plug/unplug a cable — Triode Wire Labs recommends an equal playing/resting period (6-10 hrs on, 6-10 hrs off) — Audio Sensibility says minimum 100 hrs on their cables before critical listening…and on it goes!

And to top it off — I’m listening to the Cardas Golden Reference now — not sure what they did at the factory besides reskinning the connectors, but — they’re sounding pretty darn nice!  Maybe not the best I’ve heard in my system, but much better than they seemed to me before sending them in. And they haven’t had any run-in yet!  Crazy!

At any rate, it’s not going to be a hardship to have them in the system for a month before I decide whether they’re staying or going. And that’s a great position to be in.  And I wouldn’t be in this position without the help you and others have provided through this thread  Much appreciated!

Best, JAMES

@ghdprentice  That is excellent advice re process.  Thanks for that.

I'm trying to take a page out of your book now...after plunging down the XLR IC rabbit hole, I've decided to take a breath and live for awhile, with a couple of options I've amassed.

I've got the Neotech 3001 MkIs (all copper OCC) that I quite like.  So far, they have bested the Audio Sensibility Statement SE and their own Neotech 3001 MkIIIs (20% silver), in my system, for my ears/tastes.

And, I received my Cardas Golden Reference cables back from Bandon OR today.  They did an amazing job refurbishing them!  They put new Cardas wraps on the ends, and in so-doing, brought them into this decade, haha!  They are now certified, and come with paperwork, so if I decide they don't work in my system, I should have a much better time reselling them.

I'm going to live with them for a month, see how they settle in.  If the low bass/slam is still missing, I'll revert to the Neotech MkIs.  (I may also experiment with some AZ Matrix Reference IIs, if a pair comes up on the used market...'cuz I'm a glutton for punishment, it seems!)

Once I get through this phase, I've got next on my agenda -- an upgrade of my AQ Coffee USB cable, and some experimenting with upgraded PCs for the streamer and DAC, and possibly the AQ NRG-4 on the amp.

Thanks again for all the guidance.  I really appreciate the insight and perspective you and others have offered.

Best, JAMES.

Here's some pics of the rejuvenated Golden Reference XLRs.

Now let's see how they sound!

JAMES

@audphile1 Copy that!  Will give 'em lots of overnight burn-in, with a resting period during the day as well.

Best, JAMES.

@pennfootball71 @paulcreed Thanks for the recommends. There certainly are a huge number of manufacturers out there, and they each have many lines to choose from. Seems like, at a certain point, one has to just commit to a solution and enjoy the music.

@audphile1 My limited experience with the 20% silver coated Neotech MkIIIs was exactly as you suggest with my Benchmark rig. It’s amazing how a little emphasis can be too much in the long-term. I found those cables to be interesting at first blush, but ultimately preferred the all copper. Of course, another manufacturer’s silver cables (AZ, for example) might be the perfect fit. Only one way to find out, unfortunately!

Best, JAMES

@audphile1 Thanks for detailing the AZ setup. If I head in that direction, I’ll probably start with the Matrix Ref IIs — although, I may add a preamplifier to the chain sooner than later. Might stay in the Benchmark stack, and get an LA4, if a good one comes up on the used market.

Thanks again for your support. I really appreciate it.

Best, JAMES

@mclinnguy Got the cables back from Cardas yesterday. They are now certified and have been re-terminated with updated sleeves. They look brand new!  I’ve got them in my system and will give them a month before deciding whether they stay or get resold.

As you pointed out, the whole exercise cost about $150Cdn. But if I do decide to sell, I can assure the potential purchaser that the cables are ready for prime time.

Best, JAMES

@magnuman  Thanks for your posts.  Like you, I have appreciated the Audio Sensibility OCC cables.  I had a pair of Statement SEs that sounded very good.  I opted to replace them with the Neotech 3001 MkIs, as I thought they were even better.  I'm looking forward to trying the Acoustic Zen line at some point.  I believe they use OCC as well?

I did find that added silver was a bit too much in my system.  Instead of the treble frequencies getting a lift, it seemed, to my ears, to be more of a 'tilt', and the low-end slam was attenuated.

That said, synergy is in the ears of the beholder, haha!

Best, JAMES.

@audphile1 @mclinnguy  Great leads, thanks!  I’m going to hold off on trying AZs while I let the Cardas GR settle in.

And — because I just bought a used Cardas Clear Beyond Power cord! Arriving tomorrow!

Lots of experimenting to do. Gonna try it on my Lumin U2, my PS Audio Duet (w U2 & DAC3 plugged in), and of course, on my AHB2.

Hopiing for some wow moments!

Best, JAMES

@magnuman  Could you please use a more respectful tone in your posts? Both@decooney and @audphile1 have been more than generous with their time and expertise, and I’ve learned a lot from them in this thread.

Best, JAMES

Thanks @decooney   I’m not sure exactly what Cardas did, but they certainly went above and beyond the minimum. The cables definitely sound better than before their factory visit. I’m giving them overnight cycles, and they are connected and will stay in place, as you suggested, for 30 days before I make a decision.

At this point, I would categorize their sound exactly as you did — not overly forward, just ‘there’. We’ll see how that evolves over time.

Best, JAMES

Well, this almost feels like it should be the start of a new thread, but -- just plugged the Cardas Beyond Power cable into my PS Audio Duet (which is feeding the Lumin U2 & Benchmark DAC3 HGC via stock PCs) -- and it feels like my system just took a massive leap forward!

First blush is a cleaner, more detailed presentation, but not harsh or etched.  Saxophones in the Coleman Hawkins encounters Ben Webster sound very smooth, and that sometimes screechy 'kazoo' quality is gone.  I can hear the piano much more articulated.  The soundstage is wider.  The upright bass is not MIA, even with the Cardas Golden Reference XLRs, which up until now, felt a bit bass-shy.

I have yet to listen to anything else, and this is totally 'first blush' perceptions -- but I'd say this upgrade is a game-changer.  Feels like my components just took a leap upwards in quality.  I was hoping for a 'wow' moment, and I think I've got one!

The feeling of wanting to revisit all your library is very strong right now.  The sound feels more confident, less strained, and that makes me feel more relaxed while I listen, and is deepening my enjoyment of the music.  That is quite astonishing to me.  And I was worried that I had jumped off the deep end in spending as much as I did on the Beyond Power cable.  It's turning out to be one of the best upgrades I've made.  Woooo Hooooo!

JAMES.

@mclinnguy Yeah!  That's the crazy thing.  Even with the OEM PCs on the streamer and DAC, the improvement is massive, right outta the box.

I do have an AQ NRG-4 PC supplying the AHB2 amplifier, from a dedicated 10AWG 20-amp line.

Now I have to figure out what to replace the OEM PCs with.  Not sure I can afford more Beyond Power cables, but perhaps a more modest improvement will still work well?

Super fun!

JAMES.

Thanks @mclinnguy   Your comments are bang on the money!

@jafant  I’m currently running in the revamped Cardas Gold Reference XLRs.  Gonna do this for a month before deciding whether to move on or keep ‘em.

Also really digging the most recent addition of a Cardas Clear Beyond power cord. It’s doing wonders for my digital front end.  I’m bowled over by the improvement!

Best, JAMES

@ghdprentice , great advice as always. Thanks.  I’m really enjoying the Clear Beyond PC (even with the OEM cords on the front end).  It’s even making the Golden Reference XLRs sound much more full.  I’m going to leave the GFs in for a full month before attempting any further experimentation.  In the meantime, I’m really enjoying the music!

@audphile1 , I had the same idea as you to put the Cardas Beyond on the amp first, but the quickest swap was on the front end, and it’s sounding great!  I will, as you suggest, try the Beyond on the amp. But I’m gonna stand pat for awhile yet.  The current setup is really quite lovely!

Thanks again to you both for your help/advice. Much appreciated.

Best, JAMES

Hi folks:

An update.  2+ weeks and 120+ hours of run-in on the Cardas Golden Ref XLRs.  They are sounding good!  Vocals are smooth, articulate.  Soundstage is wide but not thin.  Bass seems well-balanced, maybe not as beefy as some XLRs, but very pleasing and controlled.  Great dynamics/slam.  Highs are clean, clear, and not fatiguing.

However, the biggest improvement was the addition of a Cardas Beyond Clear PC, currently supplying the Lumin U2 and Benchmark DAC3 HGC, via the PS Audio Duet.

It was a game-changer.  Like a new system.  A true WOW factor improvement.  I was shocked.

I don't think I had an understanding of 'synergy' until I heard this change.  I still have to experiment further, swapping the Beyond with the AQ NRG-4 (which is powering the amplifier on a direct 20A line), but it's sounding so good I am reticent to upset the balance!

I still have to upgrade the stock PCs on the DAC and streamer, but I'm taking my time.  And I am curious about going back to the Neotech Mk IIIs and seeing how they perform now.  Originally, I felt the tonal balance was titled up, favouring the highs at the expense of the lows -- not all that different from what I felt about the Cardas GRs -- but now I wonder if that had more to do with the PC balance/synergy.

Anyway, I promised myself I'd give the GRs at least a month in the system, even though at this point I don't expect much to change.  I'll keep y'all posted on my further findings.

Best, JAMES.

Hello all!

Well, after a handful of months, it feels like I've made huge progress in my system-refining journey.

The most recent upgrades are: the aforementioned Cardas Beyond Power cable, which I'm using on my AHB2 amplifier, now utilizing a Cardas 4181 duplex outlet, on the 10 AWG, isolated ground, dedicated 20A line.

I've added an Audioquest Tornado pc to the PS Audio Duet, which supplies power for the Lumin U2 streamer, the Benchmark DAC3 HGC -- and the newest component addition -- a Benchmark HPA4 preamp.  (I also demoed an ARC LS16, which I liked quite well.  It was a close battle, but I've decided to stick with the Benchmark.  It performs very well, and has advantages in connectivity and synergy with the rest of the Benchmark 'stack')

After extensive listening and running in, I've decided to keep my Cardas Golden Ref XLRs, running from the DAC to the HPA4.  And I've added a set of Neotech MKI XLRs from the HPA4 to the AHB2.  After testing many combinations, including the Neotech MKIIIs (which have 20% silver), I've found the Gold Ref/Neotech MKI combo to be the most musical, pleasing in my system.

The most recent tweak has been moving to an Audioquest Diamond USB cable (up the line from the AQ Coffee USB I've had for years).  The soundstage and detail with the Diamond seems much improved, with a greater sense of clarity.  I'm also about to receive a Wireworld Platinum Starlight 8 USB cable, which I'll compare to the AQ Diamond, before choosing one or the other.

As of this writing, the only remaining upgrade on my list is the stock PCs on the streamer, DAC & preamp.  I'm watching the used market, and hoping to keep the cable length down to 1M, to reduce cable clutter.  If anyone has recommendations for source PCs, I'd love to hear them.  I'm looking to spend max $1K USD for the three cords, ideally.

The system is sounding really great, and refined, to my ears.  I'm enjoying it very much.  And I'm very grateful for all the advice I've received in this thread, particularly regarding improving the power equation of the system.  It's made a huge impact...one that I would never have predicted.

It's hard to believe that I could be almost done building my system, at least, for now.  Lots of music to enjoy now, until the next bout of upgraditis!  :-)

Best, JAMES.

Thanks @badgerdms for the recommendation. Will add them to my list.

I've noted a similar improvement to soundstage/detail by moving to the AQ Diamond USB cable between streamer and DAC, and I’m also demoing the Wireworld Platinum Starlight 8, which I believe is also silver-based.

Best, JAMES 

Thanks @subaruguru for the informative post. I really appreciate your knowledge and expertise.

I ended up with symmetrical lengths of ICs, due to the addition of a preamp, and the subsequent repositioning of the components in my system. So I’m all set, for now.

Best, JAMES