Since making a spread sheet with my audio system prices, I have been thinking(shocked) about my total investment in cables. My total system retails at $67,000 (Digital and analog front ends included). I purchased all of it here on Audiogon so my investment is about 50%. Of that I have about 10% invested in interconnects and cables and another 10% in Power Cables (Shunyata Hydra included). That's $13,000 worth of wire. I'm starting to question whether it might be more effective to put some of this budget into acitve components. It would take forever to listen to all possible combinations, but would like to hear others experiences with relatively high end systems and cable selection. It would seem to me that the point of diminishing returns would be reached sooner with cables than with speakers and amps. Do most of you follow the 10% "rule" for cabling? How do PCs fit into this rule? Are there any super bargain cables capable of keeping up with highly resolving electronics?
I've heard a lot good things about Mogami cables and absolutely agree about trying what professionals use. I'm just not sure that they use the most neutral cables since they might find similar synergy between microphones, electronics and cables. Also studio cost constrains might prohibit them from using long runs of very expensive cables. Their choices are likely to be very smart (good compromise) while many cables were not even taken into consideration since wiring whole studio with cables like Stealth Indra or AZ Absolute (that I use in 0.5m XLR) would be extremely expensive.
I also suspect that some studios might not even care since I have many CDs recorded very, very poorly.
how does one answer this question when it is impossible to ascertain the contribution of cables to the overall sound emanating from a pair of speakers.
there are so many variables, including the room and ac, that questions such as this are at best, highly conjectural.
it ii is possible that some cable may have a profound affect upon the sound of a stereo system to the same extent as a pair of speakers.
After years of chasing power cables I have decided to know what's in the cables I purchase. If the cable design is a secret then I'm very leery. The last few sets of cables I have purchased work well and are a good value in parts alone. In my recent adventures I purchased cables which although pricey at least were able to be rationalized by the price of the parts alone. If a cable has $80 worth of connectors then the cable would be a bargain at $85 assuming the cable used good conductor which is not cheap.To purchase a $200 cable with $20 worth of parts is criminal but if a cable is priced more reasonably then a $500 is a good cable or at least should be if $400 of that cable is parts. Many cables are far too pricey for their actual value in parts. For me I found that there are many good cables made by smaller individuals or companies which charge a better parts to final product price ratio.I would feel more comfortable spending $500 on a cable with parts which justified the cable rather than a $200 cables which use $30 in parts and charge a 7to 1 ratio parts cost to final product cost. Good cables can be found at fair prices if one researches what they are after. Some DIY cables work with perhaps $100 worth of parts.It is important to be familiar with the sound characteristics of connectors as they can dramatically change the sound of a cable.$80 Wattgates sound better that $18 Wattgates. This is my experience.
you raise a basic question: what is a businessman's fair profit ?
have you ever owned your own business ?
as a business owner, with all of his/her fixed and variable costs, what do you think is necessary for a businessman to charge for his product to remain vaible, in relation to all of the costs expended to maintain his operation ?
hello I have read your trend and the topic similar to the one I raised cables are really the worst investment and if you only knew the mark up on cables in some cases up to 80%. In the audio sales industry it's called paying the rent and keeping the lights on. Many view spending thousands of dollars on cables as the norm . I assure you it's an audio placebo for some it's enough to cure the problem and for others the problem is still there. I have two systems a solid state system and a vacuum tube system I'm not sure what a digital system is? I guess that means a cd/sacd/dvd-a player. I initially said worst investment with a return on the dollar of less than 50% when you start selling your cables you'll find out it's much less. think about in these terms if the retailer purchased the cable back from you at 30% of what he sold them to you in the first place he would be just breaking even as if he was buying them new from his supplier. in used audio market cables are considered used and audio equipment is considered vintage. in the vintage audio market you will realize higher returns in most cases and profits on some rare occasions I can't say the same for cables. I wish you luck on your decision. I guess the 10% rule is better than 50% rule especially when the cable retailers apply the 80% mark up rule with the return on your dollar of less than 40% rule.
To answer the original question, in general I believe you can get the job done pretty good at about 10 percent of system cost, and no higher than 25 percent. Beyond that, I would probably start replacing components or speakers.
I just calculated the retail value of my system at around $50,000, of which the cables are about $4,000, or just about 8 percent. I have gone to DIY mostly made with high quality bulk cable and some of the best connectors available. I also have some DIY made with raw materials but, I generally like the bulk cable variety better. My only remaining manufactured cables are two Isoclean PC's I picked up with an amp purchase. In comparison, I do not believe the DIY cables are at all inferior to some of the better manufactured cables I have tried, by Cardas, Purist, Acoustic Zen, Harmonic Technology, Audioquest and others (no, I haven't tried them all). I still believe the bigger bang for your buck is in the components and speakers, and would allocate maybe 10 to 15 percent for cables, and another 5 to 10 percent for isolation and room treatment. Of course, buying used and DIY can reduce those numbers.
Cables are different from the rest of the system - they are non-perishable. It doesn't hurt to buy better cables now (if you see great bargain) for the future instead of buying twice - as long as you keep them neutral sounding.
I don't believe it makes sense or you can put a price relative to the system. There's too big a gap between performance and price, meaning the "best" cables cost a fraction of what the most expensive cables cost.
To Mitch2, as a dealer I did the comparison work between entry level equipment and the upgrade path that gives the best bang for the buck. Working from a starting point equipment upgrades will never make the bang for the buck improvements wire will. You simply do not hear the full potential of what better equipment does until the wire is at a refined state. It's as simple as the fact that you are wasting a lot of money when equipment is focused on before wire. Not only that but with inferior wire your comparison choices on equipment will be altered because of the coloration the wire imparts to the system. Neutrality is the key and there are $150 interconnects that are as neutral as the very best neutral ones are, they just reveal a little less detail.
My common sense proof of when you are done with wire comes when the given cost of a wire upgrade that makes a discernable difference is still under what a better component can do that costs more. Wire comes first then equipment upgrades.
Now that said you have to weed through the plethora of cable to get the best, because the best interconnect I know of that outperforms those costing thousands is a modest $800. There are dozens of $800 cables that mid performers so that is where the rift is between price versus performance. As a dealer I consulted on many mega buck systems that weren't doing what they should even though they had tens of thousands in wire. My wire recommendations that "fixed" the problems were way cheaper than what the person already had.
I'm writing a book on system synergy that explains in a common sense manner what the weak links of a system are and why. The common sense approach allows audiophiles to have a way better understanding of the role wire takes in a system, and which wire is the most important to have the best in.
Those in the know know that there are only a few interconnects that could be called the best. None of them is $800 unless you meant per inch or centimeter. Also, I have three source components but only one interconnect for them. It was $800 new, by the way, but it is far from best, just very good. In addition, sometimes one has to run long wires, and it may easily cost $10k new just for that. I treat cables and power cords as components. In my modest system they cost about 25%, all were bought used.
My common sense proof of when you are done with wire comes when the given cost of a wire upgrade that makes a discernable difference is still under what a better component can do that costs more.
IMO, for me at least, that point still falls at "about 10 percent of system cost, and no higher than 25 percent," as I posted in 2005.
Wire comes first then equipment upgrades.
I see your point with this and suggest the important thing is to have an idea of the system price range where you expect to end up (at least with each step forward), and then settle in on cables that makes sense for that price range while you try different equipment. My experience with a variety of cables is that I can meet that goal relatively inexpensively, for my $50K list system, with simple DIY projects using very good quality bulk cables and top level connectors. I also have a Cable Cooker to condition them initially and periodically. I have found the resulting cables to be suitably balanced between neutrality, smoothness, detail, tonality, extension and dynamics when compared with other brand name cables I have tried, which sometimes do well in some areas but not so well in others. I can easily discern the effect of changes in my equipment. Using these cables has allowed me to get away from the expense and time required to constantly buy and try a variety of different cables.
BTW, do you care to share what cable you are speaking of when you say,
the best interconnect I know of that outperforms those costing thousands is a modest $800
I am continually amazed at the performance of the Speltz interconnects. Whereas I have upgraded everything save the speakers, the Speltz wires stay. There is nothing they inhibit. That should be the greatest aspiration for any cable.
You have the answer, spend on your components not cable this will give you more bang for your buck than any cable will and spend it on what ever source you listen to the most and work your way out from there changing your speakers last.Try Atlas cables if you want most bang for your buck.
compare the affect of replacing an amplifier with the affect of replacing a cable (speaker, ic or power cord).
if the affect upon the sound of a stereo system is more "pleasing" when replacing the cable, it would seem that the "new" cable has a more profound affect and could be considered as the wiser purchase , assume one can afford it.
my point is the component which has the greatest positive affect upon the sound of a stereo system should be given top priority. if it happens to be a cable, so be it.
i would therefore conclude that there is no formula to specify how much to spend for cables, relative to some other component.
trust yoour ears. one shouldn't be dogmatic or doctrinaire regarding any component.
its a question of value. if an expensive cable makes a big difference, and the difference is worth the price of the cable to the buyer, it's a sensible purchase.
i like to use the analogy of expensive vs inexpensive restaurants.
i generally find that spending a lot of money on food, compared to a good diner, is not worth it. you may disagree. it depends upon how you value the experience.
My ICs between pre and amps cost more than my pre, which is a wonderful piece in itself. Never in my wildest dreams did I foresee that coming. But I just ignored common sense and committed to the best sounding ICs for me in my system. And am glad for it.
Tpreaves - I understand your point, and at times it can be difficult to not be fooled by one's own conscience, but since I paid $0.00 for the ICs (retail $849 for standard four foot length pair, and mine are 12 foot pair so would have been much more than that as these are hand made), this is not the case. I should however divulge that my pre is terrifically silly good for the money.
To blow your mind even further ... I almost bought a pair of tubes for my pre which cost close to 50% of my pre, which I paid full retail new. Such is the crazy world of audio.
"Such is the crazy world of audio" - yes it is. I'm even afraid to tell my friends how much I paid especially for cables, since they believe that any conductor (including barb wire) will do (they also believe that all amps are the same except for power while digital has to be by definition).
I feel the same as you kijanki. My cabling costs half the price of my whole system and I feel embarrassed to admit it in fear of being ridiculed. But in my system I would have it no other way as the cables are just like another component to my ears.
Vmhf - Even if your cables cost too much it is non-perishable stuff. Electronics or speakers might go bad or you'll decide to upgrade it but cables, if neutral sounding, might stay forever. Also, I feel that it is easier when we take one element out of the equation.
You are absolutely right there Kijanky. The cables I have tick all the right boxes and shall remain with my next system upgrades. I believe they are very neutral sounding and simply get out of the way of all my gear. It's one hifi cost I dont have to ever worry about again in my life!
IMO cables are the biggest racket in audio. It all depends on what cables work in a given system. You don't need to spend a lot of money to get great sound. In fact, there are many low priced stuff that outperform the expensive ones. Years ago my system retailed for $36,000, $7,000 of that was in cables. I sold those and replaced them with $1,500 worth of cables and got better sound. Today, my system isn't a third of what it used to be and I'm still using the same "cheap" cables.
Sometimes when you find the right cable it unfortunately costs a lot. Assuming that you can afford it, what do you do? Buy this cable or a cheaper one that doesn't sound quite right? Of course, you have to try many if not all cables before spending $5k on a pair of 1.0 M interconnects. In my modest system the speaker cables retailed for as much as the speakers, and interconnects for half the price of either integrated amp or cd player. I bought everything used so the real figures not percentage were tolerable. I can understand that in some situations cables can cost half the entire system though usually when it gets that expensive it is better to replace the components. But usually doesn't mean always. In my system it is about 30% including power cords.
I've just cruised this thread and found some very reasonable opinions. However, the focus is around the cost of cables relative to the cost of the system they support.
Yes - That is the title of this thread, but I did not find any responses indicating that anyone had considred anything else - other than PRICE!
How about the quality of the conductors, whether they are copper only, silver coated copper, silver, carbon etc...
How about the capacitance of the cable - which is directly related to dialectric properties and cable construction geometries.
Price has very little to do with how a cable will perform -YES - generally, the more expensive the the cable the better "we expect it to perform" - BUT, it all boils down to a cable's technical spec!
To cite an example - I just built a power cable from DH Labs Power Plus cable and it performed as well (maybe better) than a higher end (read more expensive) Furutech DIY power cord with the same connectors
The Furutech cable was 4 times the cost of the DH Labs - yet there was no perceivable difference i.e. on my system!
I had the same results with DH Labs BL-1 inerconect ay 1/3 the cost - which performed as well as my Van Den Hul D-102 III.
The technical spec of the cables were in fact very similar - hence the same audible performance.
The difference was in contruction - the Furutech and Van Den Hul are "industrial grade" and the DH Labs are more suited to home audio applications, electing to use high quality conductors, but forgoing some of the more rigorous industrial design features of the higher priced cables.
So - what do I look for in a cable - low Capacitance - low inductance - low ressitance - very high quality copper or silver coated or silver conductors - shielded - multiple braided shields preferred - good quality connectors - copper/copper alloy or silver
As it turns out - the resolution of ALL your cables is as important as each component, so you should know the spec's of your cables - in the same way you know the specs of your amp/cd/DAC/etc...
There are a lot of companies out there that do not publish their cable specs - so how do YOU know what you are buying?
If the specs are not published - contact them and ask for the spec - if they do not provide them - LOOK ELSEWHERE!
I, like most people probably, have spent money on Hi-Fi that could have been avoided, if I had done a little homework up front. I used to buy based on reviews, but then got nto the science behind good cables - thanks to some very imformative web sites - like the Van Del Hul web site that has extensive specs and cable details.
What does matter in a hi-fi system is the resolution abilities of every component (ncluding cables) - not the cost of the components. Granted cost is loosely related to resolution.
However - I have a couple of very affordable components that perform way past their "price point", simply because I replaced their power supply and power cables. The improvements were easily heard due to the good interconnects and speaker cables I had.
So, back to the thread title - My cables make up about 18% of my total system cost and they allow me to extract every last morsel of resolution from the various components.
I didn't consiously apply a cost rule - I simply considered the specs of the cables.
I could have gone with a $7000 power cable or a $2000 interconnect, but the resolution of some of those cables would have been way beyond that of the components in my system.
So now - just like choosing a new component - I do my homework and find a cable that I think will provide a benefit, based on it's technical spec - not its cost!
Asking what percentage of your system cost should you spend on cables makes as much sense as asking... - what percentage of my system cost should I spend on my CD player!
Audio stores simply use that percentage figure to sell you higher priced cables - what they sell you is often not what's really needed!
Do your homework and save $$$!
Alternately - find a store that will loan you cables to try.
I have found that the knowledgeable stores will probably offer you several to try out, since they are confident in your findings and their future sales!
After being a so called audiophile for 10 years and owning different equipment i cant see buying expensive cables anymore. If you have a good digital or vinyl front end then cables have less of an impact IMO. If you have a bad front end then the cables will either mask or enhance that sound, thats why some people hear such dramatic differences. Just like the post above says its really the spec of the cable that matters most, if you listen to 2 cables that have similar spec they will have similar sonic signatures. I dont care if its a 1k cable vs a $200 one. I think money is better spent on the front end because thats where your signal starts if you have distortion there it doesnt magically disappear going down the chain. The amp and speakers would be the next thing i would upgrade. After trying so much equipment what it comes down to is system synergy. The cables will make only subtle changes when you have a good front end and your preamp/amp and speakers have that synergy going on. My cables are about 8% of my system cost. All diy cables except the power cables which i use pangea which cost $40 each. I got off the cable gravy train 3 years ago after doing some blind listening test with different cables. Me and my friends were all over the board when it came to hearing any major differences. Not listening to the cables and coming back the next day yielded different result. I think its a psycoacoustic effect that our ears get trained to a certain type of cable sound. What sounded a little flat one day didnt sound the same way the next. This is just my opinion after owning so much gear. What matters most is getting the sound you like if that means expensive cable than kudos to you. I just think money is better spent elsewhere.
I do agree somewhat with post above, in that a good front end will achieve a higher level of resolution in a system.
The benefit of good components is that they are designed with plenty of "headroom" in their circuits - i.e. they have a great power supply, parts that are conservatively rated and extremely tight tolerances.
However, a more moderately priced component is often capable of performing much better if supplied with the required power.
Every component is designed to a specific price point - and often the parts used in todays electronics perform exceptionally well. However, the part that often gets overlooked is the power transformer. A good transformer will react to transient voltage and current demands extremely fast. But if the mains cable is less than adequate the transformers ability to react is compromised.
When transient demands cannot be met the internal voltages fluctuate and cause slight variations in the signal.
In a two channel system the transients affect each channel differently, which can effect the phase of the signals - this causes a "smearing" of the image and affects the details heard and the stereo image.
A good power cable will allow the component to react to transients and affectively improve the stereo image - but the real benefit is that details never before heard will be quite noticeable.
I too was once a skeptic regarding the importance of cables, until I tried them after reading several articles. The results I attained were very noticeable.
The most recent upgrades have been my power cables. I did not have to shell out thousands. One power cord cost less than $100 with a couple of nice rhodium plated connectors and it has made a significant improvement.
Now, if I can get great results with my modest little system, I have to wonder what kind of results can be attained with high-end audio components.
Perhaps there is a point at which the effect of good cables is less evident due to a components ability to deal with transients as the quality level increases.
All I know is the my system has never sounded better and most of that is due to cables that I have purchased and an upgraded power supply for two of the components.
I have a $100K system and bought $400 cables. Yes, not a typo. :) I bought and sold my Transparent Reference, FMS, NBS, Wireworld and NBS. I currently (after a trial period) bought all Frost Audio BlackFrost cables. In short, spectacular! Forward 6 months later, they close up shop. Go figure. Sucks for re-sale, but these cables are so good and for the price (even if they were $8k) I am keeping them for quite awhile and am happy. Moral of story, do your research, listen to as many cables in your own system, and pick what you like, not what the idiot magazine writers raves about (and gets paid to).
Talk2me makes a good point...follow your ears:O) I've come full circle myself and find myself having the best results overall with MIT cables. They seem to have improved their products and eliminated some of the problems I used to hear with their older designs. To each their own....Enjoy!!
Yes Sir. It was Harry Pearson who stated cables should be 10% of system cost as a general rule. Try as many as you can and you will find ut for yourself.
The idea is to find the cable that sounds best to you in your system. Do not buy by price (staying within your budget), but by sound. There are many inexpensive cables that sound great.
IMHO, a good front end is incredibly important and like finding the speakers that make you happiest along with amp and pre-amp, are the first thing you should get right and stable in your system. My approach has been along this path and it has served me well in terms of overall baseline sound that I am looking for. After that, it's really a matter of what cables (regardless of price) 'finish' the system and compliment the synergy of components and overall system that you put together. I've heard all levels of cables; some of them give subtle improvements that are good, others cast a shadow on the system according to their house sound, etc. etc.. etc...It runs the gamut to be sure. I guess that when it is all said and done having an overall mix of component versus cabling (which really is a component too!) in mind is a good thing but regardless, the overall priority should be getting the sound you like!
It's possible you've received a ton of great data. My thoughts - experience, really - is that speaker cables and interconnects make the most dramatic impact to a system. IÂ’d place their importance in the top 3 most-important. Amplifier, speakers and interconnects. My investment in cabling (Dynamic Design 10th Anniversary Nebula) is roughly 1/3 the cost of the system. ItÂ’s creepy the effect cabling brings.
Power cables should be added to Metaphysics list; my experience is similar with respect to the impact that interconnects and speaker cables have made to my system. Power cables also fit that same high priority category and should be explored...
Power cables is a must for your system. Parts is one thing i will look at. and Matching is the most important. You can have the most expensive cable but doesn't match your system. = useless. The more expensive your system goes, your power and power cord is more and more picky. and power cable is best to change it form top - down of the system as well. another important is the wall outlet as well. change that first, since most cost only $300, and sure will hear a big different even from your FREE power AC. Just my 2 cents. Happy listening.
After several years on the cable merry-go-round, I've gotten off and find that in a DBT, nobody in a group can tell any difference. I had Kimber, Crystal, Nordost, Cardas and finally an entire loom of Synergistic Research. I'm now running Mogami interconnect and speaker cables I picked up second hand for $100 total, so the percentage rounds down to about 10% only because I still have a Synergistic Research Powercell 4 with T3 SE power cable. I was running a Weiss DAC202 to a Vitus SS-010 so not likely to be bottlenecked by components...
Pop quiz...
1. Who is happiest when electrons pass through a few feet of megabuck exotic wire? a) the electrons b) the audiophile c) the cable vendor
2. Does a $500 bottle of wine taste best when drunk out of a a) plastic cup b) crystal wineglass c) makes no difference if you are just tasting the wine
3. Does upgrading the fuel delivery tube in a Ferrari 458 from rubber to one made of a space age polymer increase the power output of the engine by: a) 50hp b) 10hp c) zero
this is an interesting forum!I do not know what systems Hifinut604 did test on,I will say I have done the same test with complete oppisite outcome!I even went further with the test than hifinut604 did,$.50cent i/c and $1.00 a foot speaker cable. I can here a huge diference between a $4,000.00 speaker cable and the cheap one,and the same effect with the cheap i/c and a $2,800.00,It was like going from a bycycle to a ferrai!LoL! with all the years I have done test, I believe the cables should cost way more than most eanything in your system,if you know what your doing!,one of my test was a $300.00 yamaha cd-player with resonance control on top and bottom with a $4,000.00 I/C,, woh and behold this out performed a spectral amp,cd-player,and pre-amp with lesser quality cables,,A whole lot of people were laughing! then there was the silence,I thought I about made them cry when they heard the yamaha player with better cables!,very true story!
As a dealer I had obvious advantages in terms of trying a vast array of equipment and cable, manufacturers would send me their complete arrays from entry to flagship with enough to do a whole system. The painful part was breaking cable in to be able to tell what it could do. I also had complete lines of BAT, Belles, AR, and Electrocompaniet, so I could do an entry or ultimate level system and run a gamut of entry to best cable. I used to go into affluent customer's homes where I saw systems well beyond $100k as a rule, they were not happy with what they were getting out of these systems. Wire was the fix, and generally my recommendations would cost them a fourth of what they had already spent on wire. There were times I spent over 8 hours doing A/B comparison work, but it was improvements we heard. Knowing the order to replace wire in is everything, if you start with power cords you won't hear nearly as much improvement as you would if you upgrade I/C's and speaker wire first.
How much you spend has nothing to do with what you are getting or how well it works in a system, many $10k speaker cables will make your ears bleed, especially if you have edgy interconnects on the front end to preamp link. Modest but excellent value components with twice as much spent on cables and power cords will embarrass guys with $40k systems that have lame wire. Once someone was sold on a $1500 amp we would spend two or three hours deciding what power cord they wanted with it. It blew my wife away that half the people buying a $1500 Belles would get a $1500 Kaptivator with it (although I'd give them a great price on a power cord with their amp purchase). In a well sorted out system my favorite $3500 power cords are magic, the kind of difference anyone with ears can easily hear. The equation I used to present was to compare the difference a high end component makes in a good system to the difference a $1500 to $3500 power cord makes, the $10k component makes a fraction of the difference the cord does at way less money. I want to point out that there are a lot of good budget power cords out there that give up 85% of what you get spending thousands, and that's not to say those who can afford it shouldn't get the best.
And that folks is the answer to how much to spend, judge the cost and improvement derived from cable against the difference an upgrade to components or speakers makes. Until you are out at the point of diminishing performance you are not done. Even modest equipment leaves huge untapped performance gains on the table without good wire. Too many audiophiles have figured out how to get their systems to where they can hear substantial differences to worry about those who think cables and power cords are snake oil. There are those who think it's ridiculous to spend anything more than a few hundred bucks on wire, I think it's ludicrous to spend tens of thousands on components and speakers and not focus on excellent wire.
Here's a bit of humor for you, I've noticed a very accurate correlation between those who are vehemently opposed to spending bigger amounts on wire and their political persuasion. Show me a judgmental person who has made up their mind wire is snake oil and it's a 95% chance they are republicans. Now that right there is funny.
Each component is made up of parts and pieces that are connected by "wire". Exceeding the quality of the wire in your systems components is counterintuitive since we all agree that a system cannot surpass its weakest parts and pieces. Buying a $1500- power cord to bring 120v to a $1500- amp is not solid advice as an amateur audiophile could blow it away by any measure with a $2700 amp and $300- power cord. I could see using a quality power cord and i.c.'s but to surpass the wiring that your components use only leaves you with a lot of expensive potential. Of course when we are talking about "sound" and "music" it is all subjective so PT Barnum lives with us. If you are spending 5% of your budget on wiring that is probably much higher than any of your component or speaker buiders did buiding the things you are trying to connect.
1. Who is happiest when electrons pass through a few feet of megabuck exotic wire? a) the electrons b) the audiophile c) the cable vendor
2. Does a $500 bottle of wine taste best when drunk out of a a) plastic cup b) crystal wineglass c) makes no difference if you are just tasting the wine
3. Does upgrading the fuel delivery tube in a Ferrari 458 from rubber to one made of a space age polymer increase the power output of the engine by: a) 50hp b) 10hp c) zero
1. Electrons don't pass thru wire. Electric current is motion of charge and not the electrons. With AC electrons are only vibrating. Energy is delivered on the outside of the cable (Poynting field).
2. Crystal wine glasses since they oxygenate wine better.
3. Hydrocarbons like oils and gasoline will dissolve unvulcanized rubber completely into solution. Once the rubber is vulcanized, hydrocarbons will only swell it (reducing ID). .
This was an Aerospace engineer as he liked to call himself, he was an electrical engineer for a local defense contractor that makes rocket and propulsion systems for weapons. He wouldn't put more than $150 into interconnects in his $40k system because he had measured the "differences" between lamp cord and interconnects and couldn't measure any difference....I'm thinking okay, here we go.
I was a dealer for Meadowlark and this guy came to me wanting $12k speakers even though he had very respectable ones that cost almost ten grand. My position was that if he wasn't happy with the speakers he had he had other issues like wire, and here was where he was off to the races about how he was an electrical engineer and wire doesn't make a bit of difference. We ended up where he was challenging me to prove wire makes a difference, so I said we'd do it in his system. He had several audiophile friends who were going to be there for extra ears to evaluate differences. Also I brought the speakers because I wanted to make the point that if we popped new speakers in his existing system it was not going to make the difference he was looking for. The first order of listening was to hook the speakers up and a/b compare them, yes they were better but not what I'd call profoundly. I also popped $1500 power cords on his existing system knowing it would make some difference, but not to the degree of being worth $3000. He of course was crowing about how he was right about power cords, I said yeah wait until we have your system right then we'll see.
Going back to his speakers and listening to wire we started with my favorite interconnect position, which is the source to preamp, and I had an $800 one that outperformed all the usual suspect's flagship models costing thousands more, it was neutral yet as transparent as anything on the market. In spite of the difference being truly staggering he refused to acknowledge any difference. All the other guys and me were laughing and cutting jokes like perhaps he needed to spend a grand on a hearing aid before wasting any money on audio gear when he couldn't tell the difference anyway. He got really funny when he insisted on watching what I was changing because he thought I had to be doing something else to alter the results of switching the cable, this guy was seriously entertaining and had us laughing pretty much the whole time.
So after changing i/c's and going to a good bi-wire cable that was $1100 everyone was pretty blown away by the difference less than $2500 in cable made, and it was agreed that it was a way bigger difference than just upgrading speakers. I'm grinning like a cheshire cat and I say, now let's hear some power cords. The $1500 cords I was selling generally got comments to the effect that those cords on an amp made the biggest single difference customers had ever heard any one thing make That day made the point for four audiophiles that a change done in the wrong order makes almost no difference, but make it in the right order and it can be profound.
I always hate to hear of guys soured by listening experiences where they have heard little to no worthwhile change, it easily happens.
This was an Aerospace engineer as he liked to call himself, he was an electrical engineer for a local defense contractor that makes rocket and propulsion systems for weapons. He wouldn't put more than $150 into interconnects in his $40k system because he had measured the "differences" between lamp cord and interconnects and couldn't measure any difference....I'm thinking okay, here we go.
I was a dealer for Meadowlark and this guy came to me wanting $12k speakers even though he had very respectable ones that cost almost ten grand. My position was that if he wasn't happy with the speakers he had he had other issues like wire, and here was where he was off to the races about how he was an electrical engineer and wire doesn't make a bit of difference. We ended up where he was challenging me to prove wire makes a difference, so I said we'd do it in his system. He had several audiophile friends who were going to be there for extra ears to evaluate differences. Also I brought the speakers because I wanted to make the point that if we popped new speakers in his existing system it was not going to make the difference he was looking for. The first order of listening was to hook the speakers up and a/b compare them, yes they were better but not what I'd call profoundly. I also popped $1500 power cords on his existing system knowing it would make some difference, but not to the degree of being worth $3000. He of course was crowing about how he was right about power cords, I said yeah wait until we have your system right then we'll see.
Going back to his speakers and listening to wire we started with my favorite interconnect position, which is the source to preamp, and I had an $800 one that outperformed all the usual suspect's flagship models costing thousands more, it was neutral yet as transparent as anything on the market. In spite of the difference being truly staggering he refused to acknowledge any difference. All the other guys and me were laughing and cutting jokes like perhaps he needed to spend a grand on a hearing aid before wasting any money on audio gear when he couldn't tell the difference anyway. He got really funny when he insisted on watching what I was changing because he thought I had to be doing something else to alter the results of switching the cable, this guy was seriously entertaining and had us laughing pretty much the whole time.
So after changing i/c's and going to a good bi-wire cable that was $1100 everyone was pretty blown away by the difference less than $2500 in cable made, and it was agreed that it was a way bigger difference than just upgrading speakers. I'm grinning like a cheshire cat and I say, now let's hear some power cords. The $1500 cords I was selling generally got comments to the effect that those cords on an amp made the biggest single difference customers had ever heard any one thing make That day made the point for four audiophiles that a change done in the wrong order makes almost no difference, but make it in the right order and it can be profound.
I always hate to hear of guys soured by listening experiences where they have heard little to no worthwhile change, it easily happens.
Democrat here -- well actually way left of that or anything on the American political spectrum. Not sold on cables -- especially power cables. Am sold on the infinite suggestibility of human hearing and the infinite capacity of people to delude themselves and others when there is money to be gotten doing it.
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