Jade - if it is fact then please provide the scientific proof of those "facts". Lets see you tell the difference between these cables in a blind test for a start. The results I feel will be very instructive. As for doubting my honesty - you have no basis for doing so except in your imagination where you have concoted a rationale for my viewpoint being currect without actually having to address my arguements. The reason for this being that you have apparently bought heavily into the expensive cable philosophy and wish to defend your expenditure. People used to state with absolute certainty that the world was flat and doubted the honesty of sea farers that had circumnavigated the globe... The truth is a local high end shop lent me a load of cables to tempt me into a purchase after I bought the turntable from them - having bought the rest of the system from another source. This explains what you observed in about not fitting my system philosophy without having to invoke your explanation. Dont be so quick to judge! I actually also spent several months with blue heaven nordost as they were provided with the system. I would have said the amps were more independent of hype than any other component!
As for my system you havent actually heard it so again its pure supposition on your behalf. You assume that because I dont hear the huge difference then there is something wrong with my system so I do not hear the difference which is a circular argument whereby you start by assumming the outcome. Please consider the alternative whereby my system is so revealing that it reveals beyond any doubt that cable effect are exaggerated. In fact I have paid great attention and time to both isolation and cabling - including the provision of lab grade filters on the mains cables. No skimping was involved - in each case I aimed for the very best that could be achieved. It just so happens that this can be achieved with cables very cheaply, if $1k canbe said to be "cheap" (and the townshend rack is hardly cheap!) The next step for me is to upgrade to active, swap the pre and phono and use something like an active SEM bench for isolation. I also purchased a custom built wally tractor to optimise the alignment of the cartridge.
I can assure you I have heard the very best of which the
deck is capable and I also assure that I have taken great pains over every aspect of the system - I come from a technical engineering background and apply sound scientific principles in every instance to good effect. Wires are not complicated - I am used to working at rf where wire problems are very much more severe and still nothing like the cable manufacturers claim. I refer you to Selfs work on difference amplifiers in cable comparisons.
BTW the $60k system would be the UK price in £ converted to $ - doubtless Bryston amps would be much cheaper in the USA.
I appreciate you are not attacking and that you have firm belief nonetheless I feel I must stand up for plausible science in this debate. There is no scientific justification for cable claims and no study has ever substantiated the presence of subjective effects. I suggest that the gentleman here get a custom cable built and compare with nordost et al and decide for himself if it is worth paying $5000 instead of $50 ;). Power however is another matter and there is sound technical basis for some claims in this area.
|
Everyone, I would like to expand on what I said do to the post Brizonbiovizier made. I wont repeat some things so just read my post to bring you up to speed on my opinions.
Cables make a huge difference IF the components in your system are well matched, IF the equipment is capable of outrages bandwidth, IF the room the system is in is not over damped or rings, AND IF multiple ingredients a performance are equally important to the listener such as:
Dynamics,
Height perception,
Width and depth of sound stage,
Relaxed detail (not forced)
Roundness of instruments.
Reflections of sound in space,
Texture,
Tonal stability
Leading edge speed
Natural decay
Recreation of distant ambient noise
Breathing of emotion of the artist.
I have done double blind tests several times in my career including tests done at Harmon International and at the Audio Institute in Canada. I picked the brand of electronics, speakers, and cables 96% of the time and when I have explained to people what to listen for while with them one on one, over half the people were able to get scores above 80%.
The audiophiles I know that don't hear differences in cables are the ones that can only concentrate on one or two things at a time.
These are the same people that can't drive with their knees on the steering wheel while they eat and talk on the phone at the same time.
Nothing wrong with that but you can't tell others there is no difference in cables any more than I can tell you there is a God. One day we all will know for sure. |
Oh, one more thing I forgot. Brizonbiovizier, if you are using filters on your speaker cables you are greatly reducing the frequency extension of any cable used and it wouldn't surprise me at all that you hear no differences.
It would be like trying to judge different grain levels of camera lenses after putting a non reflective coating on the lens that hurts the performance of all the lenses but hurts the top performers worse making them close to the same. |
Filters on my speaker cables??? No no no! Only on the MAINS cables. Your comment is a bit absurd ;)
I would be interested to hear this huge difference demonstrated - so far noone has been able to meet this challenge. And indeed rigourous scientific double blind tests have also yet to reveal a difference - anecdotal evidence is not sufficient.
Your final comment is very revealing - the belief in cables is indeed on a par with religious belief. The only differences between cables are those due to LCR, connection and insulation etc - well understood engineering principles. that dont justify outrageous costs. |
To answer the original question, in general I believe you can get the job done pretty good at about 10 percent of system cost, and no higher than 25 percent. Beyond that, I would probably start replacing components or speakers. Of course the "cost no object" crowd can spend as much as they like, and DIYers can do it much less expensively. |
Come to my store, I will show you differences. My biggest customers for cables are the engineers that told me cables can't make a difference. Some of them are on this sight as believers.
Fact still remains that we only know how to measure 50% of what we hear. The human brain and healthy ears can detect all frequencies, dynamics, and differences in compression at high volumes vs. low volumes with multiple instruments compared to solo instruments and phase relationships with all of the above all at the same time in real time and no scope can come close to that.
Same way humans can have insight and sense trouble without direct sensory information. It is because we have souls that are far more capable than we give credit for.
I will agree that if basics are right, you can get good sound without spending tons. I'm just the kind of guy that can tell big differences in tires, cloths, soap, spices, and women. |
"anecdotal evidence is not sufficient" Call Dr. Floyd Tool, director of National Research Council in Canada. He only believes in specs and he will tell you I heard all the differences presented to me, well at least 96% of them. |
10% rule is way too much for something that has such little audible effect on sound (electronics engineers will predict that after a minimum basic size of copper cable is met then it has zero audible effect and ABX testing of ordinary cables against costly cables seems to support this view...)
A few hundred dollars is all you should typically need for all cables. If you are continuously tweaking around with cables then very likely you are not quite happy with the overall sound of your system or your room acoustics => changing speakers will have the biggest impact => cables may make you feel better but they are unlikely to make a significant audible difference 9 unless you have a problem) |
I've found of far greater value than spending money on cables has been the simple purchase of rockwall or owens cornering 703 and making your own bass traps & diffusors,will smoke any cable change. |
Trelja. you are so on the mark here. The problem here is that agreat deal of the posters here have more money than brains and need to brag on how much they spend. I have sold wire and cable for years. Have worked with Mfgs on many specialtiy cables. The cost to produce world class wire is low double digit . Its hype and lies and tom folory. As you stated trejla 500 gets you World class and will compete against some of the thousands of dollar rip off cable.
Dont let the mags influence you.
Reminds me of a story told by a friend in the cable business. He went to a show with a great Interconnect at 149.00. It was awesome sounding. He got no Interest in it at all. Was considered chaep. The following year he took same cable had it done in 3 colors and priced it at 299.00 599.00 999.00. He picked up 14 dealers with that same same no one wanted when it was 149.00. That sums up what cable is all about. Snake oil.
Good cable makes a difference. But you dont need to spend more than a few hundred dollars. |
Well, I guess it's funny, but it's now almost a full four years after I submitted that post, but I feel even STRONGER in that opinion now. The price of wire is, in the majority of cases, set by the type of artificial means Mapleleafs3 laid out.
As an example, I personally have a friend who sells a cable for $99 that the rest of the high end audio world gladly pays $1400 for. It's EXACTLY the same cable, apart from the solder and terminations. And, before anyone asks, the soldering job of my friend actually surpasses the more expensive cable. Go figure. He even feels dirty about selling it for $99, that's the kind of profit we're talking about.
Another anecdote, a dearly departed friend of mine used to tell me about a friend of his who is one of the longtime biggest cable guys in this hobby. I mean, beyond household name. Well, my friend, who was also beyond a household name, wound up needing an extra interconnect at a high end audio show a while back. His cable friend had one of his employees fetch one to save the day. When my friend asked his buddy what the cost of the cable was, as he wanted to reimburse him, the answer he received was, "The cost is $3000. But, don't worry, it doesn't cost me anywhere near that. In fact, why don't you just keep it..." Hmmm, didn't sound like something he was too worried about.
Again, different wire SOUNDS different. It's even critically important. But, use your head, and you'll get the best for a lot less than the rest pay. |
yep, I love to brag. That must be my motive... |
Maple - you have hit the nail entirely on the head. People just want to throw money away. I recently saw a nordost "dem" at a hsow - except it wasnt a dem, they just talked about how their cable was a bargain even at 1000s per metre. A comparison with a $100 cable would have been very instructive if they have faith in their product. |
Hi Joe, it's a bit strange hearing some of the words coming out of your mouth on this topic. I know you appreciate the fact that wire does affect sonic quality and that different construction techniques in dielectric will change an identical wire from harsh to smooth. I have often agreed with you over the years, and believe you to be a wise audiophile. I have tried so many under $150 cables and attempted to build many more, but my quest for the Holly Grail has failed every time until I spent money. I agree it's overpriced, and believe me, if a $99 wire could match the performance I would be happy to sell my investment. Please let me in on the Holly Grail you found, I would love to try them.
Maple, I have read through your posts not knowing who you are. Clearly you have a large and heavy chip you are carrying around. You tend to be more prone to trash talking any company YOU feel is a rip off, and have very little value you have added to this site. I'm sorry you are so deeply burdened with this horrid weight, I will pray for your torchered soul my friend. |
JD, thanks for your post here. I also feel endebted to your kind words. Further, in watching what part of your audio journey you have been kind enough to share with us over the years, I feel that there are few people in this hobby more devoted, dedicated, and methodical in wringing increasingly better performance out of every part of one's system than you.
As you said, we agree that wire has an effect on the sonics of a system. I even say the impact is substantial. In my opinion, wire is certainly a component, and when I really break things down, from our front end to our loudspeakers, our components are basically wire (think about it!).
And, as you have said, wire is overpriced. There are myriad reasons as to how this has come about, and I don't want to make this post overly long, so I will not go into why I feel we are in the fix we are today. But, I will say that if you really look into the source material of a lot of the cabling we use, the true cost is pennies on the dollars that we pay. That is not a universal truth by any means. Certain materials are of such purity that one could envision this level of pricing, though I am pretty well convinced only a very few, if any, companies are using this type of wire. Also, for companies such as Nordost, who have had to acquire the tooling and machinery to manufacture their own cable, the cost of paying for such equipment must be factored into the price otherwise they'll soon find themselves out of business.
But, again, if you put a list of the Top 10 cables in this marketplace over the past decade together, I'm fairly confident that this cable that I listed above would be on it. It's a Stereophile Recommended Component. All I'm saying is that I have a friend who sells the SAME EXACT stuff for $99/meter. I'd be more than happy to share the names with you offline of both the well known company and my friend...
Take care always,
Joe |
Hi Joe,
Damn you... the problem with respecting you despite not agreeing fully is I then give consideration to your opinions. Over the last four years some truly revolutionary thinking (and in some cases actual science) has raised the bar in cable performance (my opinion) and your point was not lost on me. What I heard you say is cables have gotten expensive, not because of time, material and overhead, but rather because of the clientele and the expectations they as a mass have. This led me to a new research phase. I spent the past few days reading about different scientific discoveries and quite a bit of DIYs findings. (Many of which had hard science behind them too)
Jack Bybee as one scientist has approached the cable issue from a different angle than most of the copy-cat manufacturers are pursuing. This took me down a road of philosophies I had not seriously considered before. There are quite a few white papers coming out of University studies that are requiring some new thinking. Your personal involvement in the scientific community has given you witness to the affects of silver conductive materials and the result on different conductors. You have personal experience in the new sciences that has been adopted by our industry. Unfortunately, too many of us a skeptics (my self included) to the validity of the scientific claims. This is why I began my own personal research (which I intend to continue for some time) and rather than reading product claims and/or individual peoples experiences, Im trying to understand the fact behind the stories. The Universities used to be impossible institutions to break into for personal discovery, but now with the internet, we (the lowly citizen) can access even the most cutting edge science. NASA and the Pentagon are also good links to the research by following the information trail.
As I said I have discovered a vast amount of hard science that is being applied to conductors. Often this is for purposes not related to our industry, but the science is transferable. Conductors are a significant issue as the computing capacities increase. Transfer of massive amounts of information via electrical signal has become one of the limiting factors in increased computing speeds. Now with nanotechnology, the issues are actually more complex as we demand more from less. This is opening doors and products that just plan were not possible before today. The fact that nano-fabrication is out of the Universities and into the hands of the public opens up potential science to our industry. I am not thinking we need nanotube interconnects, what I am saying is the science that got to nanotubes is viable to us.
That being said, I wanted to respond to you and let you know you have opened my mind to new theories. I intend to pursue the research and hopefully try some personal experimentation on the DIY front. I will be sure to keep the Agon community informed as I proceed.
I wanted to personally thank you Joe for your approach with me, and my disputes with you. I think you and I have proven kind respect gets your ideas across much better than slamming and anger. You are a true gentleman and one that this community should look to as an example of how we conduct our discussions when we see things from a different perspective. This hobby, above all other things has no absolutes, and it is done for our personal enjoyment, not to be right. I think we all need to keep this perspective. And I wish to nominate Joe as our leader on this front. You sir have my 100% respect and admiration.
jd |
Just to stir the pot, I have it on good authority that the "10% rule" (and indeed the "15% rule") were arbitrarily arrived at as a sales tool to coach lazy stereo store salesmen.
The synergy factor is not so easily contained within such narrow, and remarkably round-numbered parameters. |
This work is being done at frequencies many orders of magnitude higher than audio where certain effects become important. It is irrelevent at audio frequencies - just like the skin effect. |
Well, JD, I must tip my hat to you for turning this thread from one of trivial bickering to actual discussion. That's a RARE thing indeed in both Audiogon and Audio Asylum. As I alluded to above, you are a special audiophile, and we are graced by your renewed presence on this site.
Unfortunately, I have left the "scientific community" for what I feel are greener pastures from a family perspective. Though, I must say that things would have been interesting had I continued on down that path.
You brining up nanotechnology is something that really piqued memories in me. In 2000, before I completely made the leap into the field of software engineering, a group of scientists from the University of New Mexico brought me out to Albuquerque to discuss bringing me aboard a new company they had just launched. Their angle was a revolutionary process producing conductive nanomaterials such as silver, gold, platinum, palladium, etc. To be quite frank, the improvement over existing materials was on the level of orders of magnitude. I must say the prospects were fascinating.
What we soon found out was that though there was far more than tremendous interest in the products they could offer, they were seriously deficient in getting value for their hard work and creativity. The money was actually in the products produced in the next step, which is where a fair amount of my knowledge lay, and what they soon realized was a way to get them there. Over the course of the four days I was there, both sides quickly saw the potential for a most synergistic relationship.
In the end, I demurred, as I felt the risk/reward balance was not to my liking - American manufacturing being what it is today. But, I harbor serious regret today all the same - the ability to obtain a PHD in chemistry/material science and to apply what I had available to me towards audio in the long run.
In truth, of the folks I met along the way in the field, only a VERY small number were audiophiles, and my feeling is that by being in the field, and uniting folks of the type of passion and dedication such as you, JD, a lot of progress could have been made in the past five years.
Briefly, from what I have seen, I possess quite a radical view of the way things work. My two theories are amazingly simplistic, but it takes me a while to convey them to folks, no matter how small or large their scientific background is. First, material interactions are nothing more than playing with puzzles - locks and keys. Some keys fit some locks, and some don't. Not much more to know than that. Time and experience builds the understanding in a person to know what keys go with what locks. Secondly, surface area/particle size is THE most important factor once the key/lock relationship has been made. The more surface area (smaller particle size - ie. nanotechnology), the more of what I call "soldiers" (who do the work) are available.
I don't want to go too much further here, but what most people see in nanotechnology is the ability of having more "soldiers" available to them. And while THAT opens up things that we have always dreamed about, the real power, which most fail to see, is the key/lock applications. By being able to "dope" a material's properties in ways never before possible in this world, we can achieve the creation of a geometrically larger number of materials. The beauty being that we can do this with breathtaking savings.
As an example, a ratio of 55% Palladium/45% Silver makes the best conductors/resistors you can obtain, from a temperature coefficient of resistance point of view. The resistance varies almost not at all over a temperature curve. Further, these happen to be uniquely environmentally resistant as well. For the most part, the audio world has not been exposed to palldium, but in the limited instances it has, subjectiver results have been extraordinarily positive. The BIG downside is cost - Pd being over $1000/ounce, and silver being $9/ounce.
But, what if I could obtain the same or similar properties by using incredibly small amounts of Pd? With nanotechnology, the opportunity to make small amounts look like large amounts opens up possibilities that are breathtaking.
In the end, like any craft, it is the ART, not the science that is where the power lies. The science is always there, but it is the heart of the person who steers the ship to achievement via using what is before him, and solving problems.
Unfortunately, what some perceive as anger or bitterness coming from me stems from the proponderance of snake oil salesmen in audio. Folks who offer NOTHING which takes the craft forward in any direction, yet merely rebadge products manufactured by a third party with multithousand percent profit margins. Truly, I see this as borderline criminal. What is really at the root of my feelings is the potential for the scientific and engineering communities to produce REAL understanding, and ultimately improvement, in the products offered to audiophiles, and do so at what I consider fair costs to the end user. Unfortunately, we seem to be lacking a connection between the two fields to produce such a thing. |
Excellent description of some extremely complicated topics put into terms even I could understand. After reading for most of the day through papers coming from Rice University and spin off company profiles into nanotechnology I see the excitement is unlimited in these peoples eyes. The discoveries that lead to nanotube were only one year old when I last looked into wires. It appears to me that the next five years are going to change the world entirely, and as a result the audio community will also change.
Sadly our capitalist society leaves the door open to the type of businessmen you describe as snake oil salesman. I agree, but they are no less criminal than the banker who charges 20+% during periods of zero inflation or software companies who design operating systems so flawed that it leaves the door open for replacement in a year. Every area of our nation, insurance, health care manufacturing... are filled with profiteers who have no purpose other than legally stealing.
That being said, it is not fair for us to jump on all the businessmen in the economy. for in reality, the bad ones are still the few (at least I try to believe) and in my experience 95% of this planet is covered with good people. The bad ones receive the press and our attention, but let's not throw the entire world out just because there are a few greedy capitalists being jerks!
I look forward to the next generation in audio, I believe vast and wonderful things are just around the corner. (Yes the sky is bright pink in my world, but I like it that way!)I will continue to chase Joe around A'gon trying to learn from one of the good guys. Thanks again for the education! |
Nanotech? This sounds distictly pseudo scientific to me. Are you proposing nano tech cables will make a big difference? :S |
Wow...what alot of sh.t you guys are discussing!! Ever wonder why a good car radio can sound soooo much better than any HiFi system???? By the way, MIT is one of the only companies who present a strong case for their approach, backed by research...very consistent and superior at most price points! |
Jadem6. I ahve no chip and have just regret that people like you mislead the newbies to pay for snake oil. Having worked and sold cable for many years knowing what it costs to make this stuff. Its fools like you aided by big dollar adds and corupt(Sterophile) type mags that fool the fools.
In blind test I would bet anything you could not pic Radio shack spoole wire form the The crazy 1K plus cables. Any money. Snake oil is snake oil. I dont need to brag on spending 5k on wire. To many on this site do. |
OK, your right. Cables are a hoax, snake oil, stealing, and I have a lot to gain by misleading these newbies. I love to watch these idiots fall for the ads and price. I get such a chuckle from knowing how many I have mislead. You have also got it 100% correct, if it's not in an ad, I will not even consider it. But really, I purchase solely on price. The more the better. BTW, I actually hate music, so it really doesn't matter, I just want people who have no idea about audio to come over and then I brag about my system. Hell I haven't even plugged it in yet this year. And just so no one misses the point, I hang price tags on every component because that is what I need for my ego.
You nailed it, I'm a con man and there is no way I can hear any difference between my clock radio and my stereo, at least from what I remember because as I said I have not even plugged my system in.
It is so cool how you saw right through my facade. You are the man I hope some day to emulate with your wisdom and knowledge. If I could only obtain 5% of your knowledge I would be grateful. You are my idol sir. I love you! |
Jadem6 your also a fool. Like I said blind test. you could not tell the difference from a 12 buck cable and a 1K cable. Thats a fact. You can post all the drivel you want. Fact is you wont take me up on my blind test challenge. |
Herhttp://www.high-endaudio.com/index_ac.html Here is an interesting article. |
Lots of great points here, it's a matter of budget and upgrading. If you are like me I have to do this in stages. Sure it would be nice to go and spend unlimited amounts. What I do is save and buy the things that I want. 1 piece at a time. This is a on going mission. Good Luck |
I find cabling as important as any other part of the musical chain including ones mood at the time of listening. I beleive without a doubt that good cables make a huge positive difference when used in proper synch with the rest of the system and it's cables. Good cables do not have to be expensive to be really good and sometimes a lesser cable will soound better in a particular situation but I'll say it again cables can make or break a system regardless of how much they cost. Ubnfortunately when a good cable comes around it becomes way over inflated in it's price and that is because the people who make these cables can get away with it. Especially if it's a hard design to copy or just expensive materials when bought in small quantities. I know a cable manufacturer who says he can build an Electraglide Fatman from scratch but he says he can buy it cheaper on Audiogon than it would cost him to build from scratch. |
This tread is incredible. It has continued for five years despite all of the sound empirical evidence available, most importantly double blind testing. If wed only take a little time and do a little research, this thread wouldnt exist, and the mudslinging would cease. We have so much information at our fingertips on the internet, but we persist with our subjectivism and wallow in silly pseudo-science. Ignorance is bliss.
If a cable makes a significant audible difference it must be altering the signal. The principal of Hi-fi means delivering the signal as purely and unaltered as possiblesimple copper zip cord does this very well. If ordinary zip cord is "harsh" and some other special mega-buck cable "smooth," whats the "smooth" cable doing to the original signal? Lets not confuse what sounds pleasant to our ears from what is actually faithful to the original. We like junk food because it tastes pleasant; it looks and feels more perfect, not because its more pure, natural, and faithful to the original. (Some people really do prefer chicken nuggets to a simple roasted chicken.)
Here are a few links to read that provide scientifically validated evidence both theoretical and practical. If you wish to remain in the fantasy world of cable geometry, ceramic elevators, and frivolous fairy dust wizardry, keep your blissdont read them.
http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/interconnects/Audio-Cable-Vendor.html
http://www.ethanwiner.com/audiophoolery.html
http://www.verber.com/mark/ce/cables.html
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/spkcbl_e.html
http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/apcable/apcrit.html |
Well, that's maybe why the Anti-cables are winning out in so many systems. |
Ojgalli,
There is a lot of science behind the claims made on the links you quoted. The problem is that science is not always trusted and fear of missing out on a potential performance improvement continues to drive people to try things.
Another thing not mentioned in these links is that some audio gear is very much more susceptible to cables than others. For example, the principle of a high input impedance and a low output impedance is desirable for audio components...this minimizes the effect of a coupling cable (often to a point of being audibly negligible when sufficiently high contrasts are employed)
However, not all audio components are designed according to these principles. |
"If a cable makes a significant audible difference it must be altering the signal" said Ojgalli, among other tings.
Yes, and what ? Sophisme.
That only means that there are almost perfect (not alterning signal cables), and others which do alterate, more or less).
For myself, I have just tested different cables with the same outfit :
1) ok, the most expensive cables are not always the best ones, for sure - it's not a rule...like for everything !
It can even happen to be the opposite, sometimes - but not as often as I wish !
But the best are always among the expensive ones.
2) but there are important differences between less expensive and most expensive cables.
The average of the upper ones is much above the under ones.
3)Never forget, beyond that, that among each category, the active outfit is decisive.
NB It's the story of the half-full or half-empty glass, as truth, absolute, are never reached or measurable, objective.
A half-empty glass mind just says : cable is nothing, it has to be good, and it's ok, really nothing more;
a half-full glass mind says : cable is very important.
It's very difficult to make one which is reliable and don't pollute the sound.
Long, hard research, which has its prize.
|
A good cord is a good cord. They may or may not do what your looking for but that just makes it a good cord which doesn't meet your tastes. There are allot of good cords that sound different but are good. In some cases a cord that is not of the same quality will work better in certain applications. There are allot of good cords , average cords, exceptional cords and down right bad cords. The trick is finding the right cords to match your tastes. Unfortunately most of the good cords are pricy but that's because the manufacturers can get away with charging what people are willing to pay. There are very good cords at reasonable prices which are good value for the dollar. Some cords sound great in one application and horrible in another. Some good cords are inexpensive and some bad cords are pricy. The difference between good and bad is a matter of opinion but I believe at a certain point good cords are good but just sound different from each other giving a variety of tuning options. Power cords do make a difference and are useful to tune your system to ones particular tastes. Those who claim cords don't make a difference have probably never truly have given cords a chance or even tried them. Regardless of the theories and scientific facts subjectively cords sound different from one another giving audiophiles another variable to be confused or enlightened about. Cords are like any other tweak. They change the sound be it for better or worse. That's my rant of the day. |
It is so easy to hear what a great cable or power cord can do for fine equipment. True, they are not always super expensive, but some of the higher priced stuff does deliver the goods on great gear..night and day differences!! Some people are tone deaf..that's a fact as well! I have owned just about all the major cable brands, including Radio Shack...all wires are not created equall sorry to say! MIT is my favorite of the higher price stuff...it allows the full dynamic range thru with both macro and micro dynamic shadings..tone color is vivid and soundstaging is deep and layered with oodles of air!! Horns are one of the toughest instruments to re-create on a stereo...try the RS cable against a MIT Magnum cable and ya don't have to scratch your head...your jaw will drop!! This all means nothing of course unless you own great gear like Krell ect....! One must also have a deep love of live music in order to understand what makes one cable sound better than another...if no appreciation exists then any cable will do, which is fine if that makes you happy! It's a personal thing..you don't have to make it a public scourge!! |
that component which makes the greatest (positive) difference to the sound of a stereo system is worth the most dollar investment.
aside from the speaker, there is no formula for allocating funds to the other components which makes sense. if one's budget is sufficiently large the task of configuring components is easier than when funds are limited.
unfortunately it is not possible to assemble all combinations of components, so there is an element of luck and the opportunity to listen.
i see no advantage in developing a formula to allocate expenditures on individual components. |
I'll throw-in my 2 cents worth (maybe it's already been said, I didn't read all 135 responses up to this point!). Power cords can make or break a system IMHO. Some cords that come with your components are fine as is (i.e.: Audio Note Japan pre-amps, their KSL-SPz AC cord is fine, no need to upgrade). Most gear a great AC cord will have a very positive effect and you don't need to spend huge amounts of $$$ to get a great power cord. Example: Z-Cables made (I say made because as of several weeks ago Z-Cables closed shop do to personal health issues... and YES, Mark is doing well now) a $600 Black & Red Lighting AC cord that actually beat out most mega buck cords or at least performed as well. I've listened to dozens of power cords, they all make differences (again as a qualifier, your system has to be capable to hear all these, sometimes subtle changes, but in the end it's trial and error. You have to experiment or trust your dealer. |
In blind test I would bet anything you could not pic Radio shack spoole wire form the The crazy 1K plus cables. Any money. Snake oil is snake oil. I dont need to brag on spending 5k on wire. To many on this site do. Now, that's quite a generalization! It would do you good to find out which cheap products deliver and which ones do not. In my system I use 65 cents/foot military surplus signal transmission cable as speaker wire yet handcrafted, naturally insulated silver interconnects. My system is resolving enough that anyone can tell apart same models of a power cable treated at different cryogenic facilities. My system is gentle enough that it can successfully play any recording of any musical genre regardless of recording quality. With psychic power and primal intensity, |
a cable(power/speaker/inter connector) is only worth what it will bring in the after market. example if a cable lists for $1000.00 and you can get a 25% disc costing you $750.00. then when you go to sell on audiogon and you can get $550.00-$750.00 back the cable was worth the price. if you payed $900.00 for the same cable and had to sell it for $450.00 or less, not a value in my mind. and the lower you most go the lower the ultimate value. so its not the price but the % of your original investment you can recover that determines the real $ value. so if you buy $8500.00 list spraker cables for $5700.00 and a few yrs of enjoyment or dislike later, and you can recover 80 to 100% of your money paid, well you did ok. obviously the closer to the 100% the beter. thats the way i see it anyway. you should research resale value first, then consider buying. |
My experience with JPS shows good bang for the buck value and superb performance. |
Cables should never cost more than twice the system... |
Good points Duane. I've always been a proponent of very fast, wide bandwidth electronics. I'm sure that this has influenced my cable choices too.
If i had bandwidth limited electronics that introduced audible degradation via time and phase related problems, i probably would have went with lesser cabling. The cabling wouldn't make much of an audible difference because the purity of the signal was already degraded by the electronics.
In that respect, i guess that i can understand why so many people don't hear some of the major differences in cabling that others do. That is, their gear / installation has compromised the signal so much so that the cables are no longer the weakest link. This could be why "very subtle differences" are all that they are ever able to detect. Sean
>
PS... Anyone remember what the highest linearity / widest bandwidth speaker cable was that Audioholics ( the "cables are cables" people ) tested? If you took notes, you'll remember that this wasn't a "real expensive" speaker cable either. |
|
First of all I have to comment on your thanks to Trelja and that you were looking for that kind of information, Why? Did that actually sound like good information to you?
I'll give you a quick rundown on why I would consider there to be value on my opinions about cable. I was a dealer in high end audio products, I like high end sound but also finding equipment that is a top performer at a price point. When I started I realized that if you tried to find out anything about wire and how much to spend you would get as many answers as people you asked. Even the people that have time and experience can be full of bull. I had some equipment lines that were the best values in audio, and others that cost a small fortune. I wanted to find out where the point that cables performance became a diminishing return because I assumed there would be one. I tried all kinds of relative value things like taking a BAT system with a $10k preamp, $18k amps, $6k cd, $22k speakers. Everything performed beyond it's price tag. The cables that are the best I've ever found going through about $400k worth of everything under the sun are the best value in stupidly high end audio, but at $2500 they are better than anything out into the $10k range. the whole line from high, mid, and entry matched others way beyond in price. Changing from the good cable down to mid level the price differential is only a few thousand dollars but you felt like the system was changed to components costing $30k less, the speakers which are glorious Meadowlark Nightingales that are as good as $80k Wislon Audio sounded like I'd dropped to $3000 speakers. Dropping to the entry which was actually competitive with $1000 I/C's for $129 and the system exhibited none of the massive audiophile presence and staggering detail and the right there in your face live feeling. So a few grand kills $60k worth of equipment as seen from that angle. Now I take the other way, nice entry grade performance equipment that matches to higher priced gear. Rega Planet, Belles 150, belles 21-A preamp, Meadowlark Heron speakers, a few grand in modest but excellent equipment. As I work up in cable grade the mid that was $300 for I/C's but would outperform most $1500 cable made the low grade in the big gun system sound less clear and detailed, the subtle things were not in the big system that the entry was starting to catch. The $800 I/C's in the entry trashed the big system with entry and the mids didn't have as much closeness and presence but the detail was starting to come through but didn't match the entry with cable that compares to anything on the market.
Questions about how much to spend on cable don't compute because the value with improvement to cost is so far beyond equipment gains it's like it takes $100 to get the gain over a grand in equipment does and it gets worse when the equipment is five to ten grand a component. A few hundred gives a better improvement than ten grand if wire hasn't been addressed much. Starting with the basic decent system I was talking about and entry grade wire you could make all wire upgrades until you were at a high level at which time your equipment upgrades will start giving up much higher levels of performance because you will hear it because the cable is capable of passing higher levels of detail. I started out a customer with the degree of equipment he wanted and educated them to several grades of wire so they knew where improvements were best made. I am writing a book on system synergy because this subject is the most bull filled in existence. I go through the logic in a manner that even Trelja could understand if he could consider for a short period that there is someone who tried $400k worth of wire in hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment and that he may be mistaken about cables over $250 that he has never tried. I'm not sure how guys that find the magic $250 cable come to the conclusion that there couldn't be a better cable. The fact is that as good as they thought that cable is there are many more jumps up from there and they are just as amazing every time you make that improvement.
I cover things like which cables make the most difference and explain why so you can better understand why it's possible to make an upgrade that you won't hear much difference until you improve other things first. Another great thing to know is what happens when you upgrade speaker cable before interconnects.
Starting with a basic system upgrading components looking for great sound is only giving up a fraction of the quality the better equipment is capable of. Cable is a mind blower every time you jump up in quality, then equipment upgrades start delivering detail and presence that makes it worth doing.
There have been some very good responses to your inquiry but they weren't the ones that thought the idea of low limits being as good as it gets. Good quality sound is determined by the wire. Look at entry cable as cutting off 30% of the quality, higher grade lets you hear more, and every cable upgrade lets just a bit more. Yes there is a reasonable cutoff point but it really has more to do with how much you want in your system, picking a point to quit with wire doesn't make sense until the money spent on a new equipment upgrade will not make the difference wire will. If wire would still make an improvent that is just being wasted on new equipment.
An example of an opinion that means nothing is the guy who says that the best budget cable is Transparent, how many has he tried? It has to be the $129 JPS which will beat the $1500 Transparent, the $300 JPS beats Transparent out to $4000, and the $800 JPS beats the most expensive Transparent. I have had all these cables in systems and I had thousands of dollars worth of Transparent I used to show people the value differences out there. |
I've got an interesting thing for you to think about, what cable connection between components makes the most sense to put the best grade cable in including the speaker cable? If you follow the signal path from the cd player the one from there to the preamp is the weakest and most delicate, it needs to be boosted in a refined way so as to be a more robust level for the amp. If the cable loses minute detail because it isn't as good that detail will be gone from the system. Preserve that signal in the highest form possible to the preamp and you can drop to a lower grade cable from the preamp to amp and the detail that was fragile has been boosted so it passes through lesser cable without detail disappearing. I've used a trick of putting best in the first spot and medium grade in the next. It makes a huge difference from the other way where you have lost important ambient information, it doesn't have the dynamic energy.
In a budget allocation scenario the lower the budget the higher ratio I'll spend on cable, cheaper electronics fed with a better signal does better than if you dropped the cable cost back to nothing and put that money into a better component. The better component with cheap wire won't sound as good as the cheaper one that had more detail and depth. |
Anyone who would pay $13,000 for wire just to connect his or hers stereo, should be strangled with it. |
I spent $3,750 on cable for my system so maybe I should only be whipped with it! ;-) |
"09-16-06: Sksos
I'll throw-in my 2 cents worth (maybe it's already been said, I didn't read all 135 responses up to this point!). Power cords can make or break a system IMHO."
I've asked before and will again; how can changing the last few feet of power cable in a chain of many miles from the power company, via various substations, power lines and your house wiring, possibly change how your system sounds?
Uninteruptable power supplies and conditioners I can understand. But suggesting that 3 feet of "special" power cord can improve an audio setup seems absurd. It's like saying that if your water supply comes via 10 miles of dirty pipes, then replacing the last 3 feet with new pure copper piping will suddenly make the water pure again.
If anyone can give an explanation better than "I've tried several and I can hear the difference", then I'm happy to stand corrected. |
Carl109...
If you consider a line cord as a type of circuit rather than wire, there lies the answer. What runs from the Utility Co. to a residence and then the house wiring is hardly a tuned or optimized circuit.
Kind Regards,
Robert
RSAD |
I currently have two power cords for my pre-amp. When one is used it has a very big dynamic sound and when the other is used its recessive with a darker background and more texture. The difference is the shielding materials. Less shielding creates a big dynamic sound and more shielding blocks more EMI/RFI and softens the sound of my system. Therefore, I chose the power cord for my system for the sound I prefer. |
I appreciate the replies, but they still don't explain the apparent affect on the sound of a system. Once plugged into a wall socket, the power cable acts simply as a continuation of the power path from generation to your component's power supply (transformer etc); it isn't a discrete separate circuit as you suggest, in the way a power conditioner or UPS would be. It can therefore at best cause no further degredation to the power supply, but even a decent inexpensive cable will impart little to those two or three last feet.
As for RF/EM interference... yes, they exist and are a problem for low level signals in interconnects. But shielding less than 1% of your power supply chain is a bit like putting sunscreen on one finger and expecting the rest of your body to not get sunburnt.
I'm not trying to cause trouble here; I really am after some genuine evidence. But everytime I read "I spent $1000 on a power cord and Wow!", it sounds like "I spent $1000 on a power cord and it sounds no different but I don't want to admit I got conned by the HiFi shop." |
