Vmhf - Even if your cables cost too much it is non-perishable stuff. Electronics or speakers might go bad or you'll decide to upgrade it but cables, if neutral sounding, might stay forever. Also, I feel that it is easier when we take one element out of the equation. |
"Yup, the $100/pair IC's were identical in performannce with perhaps an even greater dynamic range and enhanced clarity"
Yes, I've heard stories like that before. Next person says that he bought $0.12 wire in Home Depot and it was much better than mentioned $100 cables.
Cables do change sound and it my case more expensive cable improved lower midrange that sounded a little thin with AQ Indigo (class D amp) but I'm not sure if next 10x dollar increase would buy audible difference - at least for my inexperienced ears.
What is getting improved might not be appreciated. For instance some don't like certain DACs like Benchmark because their clarity makes them sound "sterile" and "less dynamic". I even heard opinion that instruments should blend more together and guitars sound too clean. Fuzz guitar will always sound more lively than super clean Jazz guitar and if cheaper wire is making it for you - go for it and don't spend money on expensive cables. There is no right or wrong here.
It is also important to mention that placebo effect works in both directions - If you don't believe in cables then cheaper cables will sound better to you. It is possible that in my case more expensive cable gives me only placebo effect but I'm still happy as long as it does. Also cables are non-perishable items and I can spend more to avoid buying them over and over again.
It always puzzles me why people who don't believe in cables post on cable forum. Does anybody know? It sounds a little like deaf man answering add for music teacher just to tell them not to count on him.
Please don't give me BS about helping poor instead of expensive cables. If you want to help poor you should not be in this hobby to start with and you should not drink coffee or alcohol because you could help poor instead(and it is bad for you). |
Muralman - from technical point of view dielectric constant of insulation affects capacitance between wires as well as dielectric absorption. Mylar is horrible and it is leading reason of bright tweeters in cheap speakers. Mylar's dielectric constant is in order of 4 while Teflon is about 1.5. Foamed Teflon is even less and oversized sleeves improve it even more (wires like AQ Sky). There is also factor of skin effect that starts at gage 18 for copper at 20kHz. Can all this be audible? I think we can hear what is even very difficult to measure. There are two ways to deal with skin effect in speaker cables where we need thicker wires (I'm not sure why). One is to use copper tape (often seen in crossover's inductors) but this is often not very practical. Another is to split thick wire into whole bunch of thinner wires. They have to be isolated otherwise current will jump from strand to strand (trying to get outside where resistance is lower because of skin effect) trough impurities. It improves things but wires are still in each other's magnetic field and only surface increased. Remedy for that is to use helical pattern of wire on outside of thick hollow core so that each wire is only in magnetic field of two neighboring wires. Now if you add to this issue of inductance of the wire and purity of the metal things are getting really complicated because not only absolute inductance and capacitance are important but also ratio of them. Poor IC cable might have 25pF/0.5uH per foot while great one might reach 2.5pF/0.05uH. Metal purity and type plays role. Silver cables are very fast snappy sound but copper - even few percent adds dimensionality and reduces brightness. Amount of crystals and impurities between them is also a factor (copper oxide is a semiconductor). Things are way more complicated. I could hear improvement in clarity but have to admit that I bought top of the line IC only because it was cheap (relatively) used. If it is placebo effect - great.
Sorry for this BS in previous post - I didn't mean it. I probably already feel guilty for not helping. My stepfather who is elderly distinguished professor of law was spending his free time in Salvation Army stores to buy as much as possible (to stretch his dollar) sending hundreds of parcels to poor families abroad. When I think of it I feel guilty every-time I spend money (not only for expensive cables). |
Muralman - I said I'm not sure why we need thick speaker wires. My Acoustic Zen Satori Shotguns have gauge 7 each (about 1" dia.) and I think it is overkill but I trust AZ designer Robert Lee and bought the cable. The reason for doubt is simple - why do we need very thick wire or huge damping factor if inductor in series with the woofer has about 0.1 Ohm? Inductance of the wire improves but very little so why to go to such thick wires?
I read on the DIY forum about good results with cotton ,that you mentioned, as a dielectric. Making it pretty is secondary issue but obtaining high quality copper or silver wire is difficult.
I re trimmed my Satoris with new spades and discovered that wire has inside isolated strands (9 I think) + 1 strand that is not solid but has inside again 9 very small strands. More complicated than I expected.
I understand that making cables in small quantities and exotic technologies (zero crystals - means cooling metal very slowly in hot forms so that crystals can not form) but price of some excellent wires (like Stealth Indra) are reaching price of a small car. When I hear no comments from my non-audiophile friends it means they think I'm crazy. For them spending more than $100 on an amp or $500 on speakers is a sin (or madness). |
Gherrea1 - I ended up 18.6% Now I have to upgrade equipment to bring ratio down to recommended 10% (at least that's what I'm going to tell my wife) |
Mitch - Double Barrel is very good and it is step above Satori Shotgun (so I heard). Satori wires look like Teflon isolated strands + one wire consisting of strands of isolated (enamel) magnet wires. I was looking for Silver Reference II ICs (about $450) while I found AZ Absolute 0.5m XLR for $600. I could not refuse that - if I did I would have bad dreams for the rest of my life, I'm sure. |
My friend bought Honda Civic and he just loves this car. He believes that there is no correlation at all between performance/quality and the price. I told him that quality difference between Rolls-Royce and his Honda Civic is pretty much the same as between Honda Civic and a Yugo.
Wouldn't you agree that there is SOME correlation between price and sound of cables - or is it completely random and things like purity of metal, capacitance, inductance etc. are not important at all. Can good sounding cable be made of dirtiest, cheapest copper (copper oxide is a semiconductor)? |
"Such is the crazy world of audio" - yes it is. I'm even afraid to tell my friends how much I paid especially for cables, since they believe that any conductor (including barb wire) will do (they also believe that all amps are the same except for power while digital has to be by definition). |
"My thinking is that if you want to hear what the recording engineers wanted you to you should use the cables they used making the music, anything different is coloration"
Jamo1,
So, if cables used for recording are coloring shall I use the same cable to color 2x or shall I use the most transparent/neutral cables?
IMHO studio equipment has no bearing on my home system otherwise I might start using distorting VOX guitar amps for playback.
What they produced is a starting point for me. Judging system's transparency/neutrality is whole another subject but I would use studio cables, or any cables, only if they sound better to me in my system. My AZ Satori has some roundness/fullness that compensates lean lower midrange of my class D amp. |
Jamo1,
I've heard a lot good things about Mogami cables and absolutely agree about trying what professionals use. I'm just not sure that they use the most neutral cables since they might find similar synergy between microphones, electronics and cables. Also studio cost constrains might prohibit them from using long runs of very expensive cables. Their choices are likely to be very smart (good compromise) while many cables were not even taken into consideration since wiring whole studio with cables like Stealth Indra or AZ Absolute (that I use in 0.5m XLR) would be extremely expensive.
I also suspect that some studios might not even care since I have many CDs recorded very, very poorly. |
Cables are different from the rest of the system - they are non-perishable. It doesn't hurt to buy better cables now (if you see great bargain) for the future instead of buying twice - as long as you keep them neutral sounding. |
Pop quiz...
1. Who is happiest when electrons pass through a few feet of megabuck exotic wire?
a) the electrons
b) the audiophile
c) the cable vendor
2. Does a $500 bottle of wine taste best when drunk out of a
a) plastic cup
b) crystal wineglass
c) makes no difference if you are just tasting the wine
3. Does upgrading the fuel delivery tube in a Ferrari 458 from rubber to one made of a space age polymer increase the power output of the engine by:
a) 50hp
b) 10hp
c) zero 1. Electrons don't pass thru wire. Electric current is motion of charge and not the electrons. With AC electrons are only vibrating. Energy is delivered on the outside of the cable (Poynting field). 2. Crystal wine glasses since they oxygenate wine better. 3. Hydrocarbons like oils and gasoline will dissolve unvulcanized rubber completely into solution. Once the rubber is vulcanized, hydrocarbons will only swell it (reducing ID). . |
