Cable Costs Relative to System

Tbg:
I'm puzzled why you would get into economic systems within the context of this thread but since you went there, I would venture a guess that if Karl Marx, et al, had been audiophiles, astronomically (silly) priced wires would not have been in their systems.

Every day thousands of God's children on planet earth die because they can't afford the food that Wall Street commodity speculators have driven sky high since 2008.

Ps, what you describe is life in capitalism. Everyday, people face this issue on every product they need at the grocery store restaurant, filling station, etc.

+ 1 with Rafael0054.

While I agree that cables can and do make a difference, I am increasingly amused by the cost of many high end cables relative to the cost of all the other stuff that goes into this crazy hobby, and relative to the cost of pretty much everything else.

I would guess that the margin of profit on wire far, far exceeds that of virtually every other aspect of high end audio for both the manufacturer and seller. I recently auditioned a pair of Maggie 1.7's at a dealer who was using speaker cables which retailed for SIXTY THOUSAND dollars. Really? Yes, really.

While I will say that these $2000 dollars speakers sounded very good, the take away for me was the audition was a waste of time and that I should have brought my own damn cable had I been warned. I also wondered if twenty thousand dollar cables would have made the Magnepans sound forty thousand dollars worse. How about speaker cables that cost a "mere" 5K? What then?

Hi Metaphysics.For me cables are SO IMPORTANT, that there is no rule about percentages of a total cost of an audio system.In fact if you have any components of a wellknown Hi End audio trade mark, you could notice improvements in sound performances by upgrading, cables, plugs, wall receptacles, and of course by changing interconnects and speaker cables.As an example I have a friend who has 6000$ in equipment( Fortè amp and preamp, Ps DAC, Proceed cd, Apogee Centaur) and 10000 dollars in cabling( interconnects,digital cable, power cords and Shunyata hydra 6).and the results are amazing.I know his system for many years and it changed for better any time he put a different cable or connector or interconnect cable.So don`t be afraid about investing in cables.It `s a superb idea!Regards!Rafael

Lars of NordOst (used) to challenge the unbelievers that his cables can improve any system -more than often slapping (too) high priced cables in a mid priced level system - and his (former) company spends 80% of the profit in marketing, begging the question if our money is well spent honoring Nordic gods. I treat cables as part of the audio system infrastructure, enabling the components. I fear the ease of swapping/upgrading cables, as compared to a component, especially a heavy one like amp or speakers, has led to a higher ratio in $cabling/$system.

@ TBG, Great post!, No babel on this thread, LOL!

I really think this is an obsolete thread. I well remember giving little or no consideration to cabling, isolation, ac filtering, racks, or how clean the records were. I also remember having about $2000 in my entire system, including my expensive ($150) London Decca cartridge. Last night I was thrilled listening to my $1790 USB dac with a $13,575 power cord and a $10,900 ics to my $31,000 line state to my $4500 amp and $40,300 speakers with everything on $450 @ platforms.

I think there now are no rules of thumb to guide buyers of audio gear. I think also that my sound today makes that in the past unlistenable.

I've been through it all. MY Most expensive cable level was Transparent Reference w/MM2. I now use all Discovery Essence. Funny thing is I read an honest accounting on the net today of an experiment performed by a noted audiophile with one of the most elaborate rooms and systems ever assembled. They compared his Transparent Opus cables to run of the mill Monster cable in a series of blind tests. The best the owner could do was 50/50 in concluding which cables he was listening to in 7 different tests. Pretty telling I think.

You owned a good system should have a good OEM cable. You can spend lots of your life and money tweaking your system to get the tightest bass, the smoothest mids, the clearest treble, the largest and deepest soundstage but still get no MUSIC? (unless it's the SOUND you are chasing).

Thankyou Elizabeth, I have to say, I agree with your post 100%, I would never do what I have, not being sure!, makes very good sence to me, I admit, being sure with many other cable brands would be very hard to imagine, you really need to know the brand and models inside and out to make a exspensive decision, It took me years to learn all that I know about the brand I use. cheers.

I like Budburma's 2-18-14 post, Bud, do not go back to the chalk board!, that old adage 10-15% for cables to system is from what I been told, from the cable companys back in the fricken 80s!, I recently read this so called rule of thumb here on audiogon over the last few months, In the 30 years I have been doing audio, that has never worked for me, I have more money in cables than I do the entire system, My amp is $14,000.00 so you can imagine the cables I have are top performers, I do not regret having at all, sounds good to me!

That's an interesting point. MRSP of everything as the standard including cables would change things, but give a standard benchmark. MRSP of cables, too. Hmmm, back to the chalkboard!

I follow A'gon member Elizabeth's tips about cable costs relative to system. I do 10-15% of what I paid for my system to get the money I wanted to spend on cabling. For an upper end of the cable budget I did 10-15% of MSRP of my entire system.

An old thread, with age old pondering and always new thinking! Surprise! Long ago and far away, my cable costs rocketed likely eclipsing the cost of the rest of my gear now. For me, it's apparent/obvious that cables are an essential component to bring out the best in a system or from a component. Definitely easier to tune in a system with cables than changing the gear, especially since most of us have spent a lot of time finding the right combo of gear. I think sinking money into power cables and interconnects is a great way to get the best out your system, for sure. Still muddling about with it somewhat, especially speaker cabling. But what a good time!

No doubt Audiolab - as you very well know I am in that camp! LOL - it just seems strange...thats all! 350 lbs of speaker with wire, drivers, parts, furniture and then.....a wire. Some things you just can't understand like for instance.....how does the beam me up on Star Trek work? Or the phasers - I could use one of those - set to stun only of course...

@ pops, we know cables can make a difference, just depends on the cable and everything else in the system, To me the cables are the most profound part of a given system, I have used top cables on inferrior componets to result better than high cost componets many times over!, the cables are a componet!

I was just contemplating this very issue last night as I was fooling around in my audio room and it just struck me that my speaker cables, PAD Proteus Provectus, list for about what my Thiel CS6's do.

I bought both on a heavy discount but it seems insane, I love the sound so I just file it away as paradoxical.

My current ratio is 32% ratio to retail price of all my cables in my main stereo system to 68% retail cost of my of my equipment. And the same ratios were for the actual costs. I found that interesting because my discount averaged to be 42% all equipment items. Even more strange is that I keep a VERY detailed Excel spreadsheet on all the money I spent, even upgrades sales gains and losses, for the past 10 years for all 3 of my stereo systems. LOL! ;-)

Wire is usually one of the most contentious subjects for audiophiles. This thread alone is proof enough.
I thought I would kick in a bit. I have been a critical listener for most of my life as a career. I started as a navy submarine sonarman. I also taught the art of critical listening to other sonarmen. After I retired I worked developing acoustic algorithms for systems. To teach a computer how to do it, you first have to understand how you do it.
There are a number of issues which make this subject difficult. When teaching, I learned that everyone has a different way of getting to the answer. How they get there isn't important, just getting the right answer. We each had different things which tickled our neural net. That's why we call it an art. It is very subjective.
As audiophiles there certain things we each listen for which brings us delight. Add in the different music we listen to, different volumes, different listening conditions including equipment, room environments, background noise and is it any wonder that we find different requirements for wire? Now add in medical conditions, hearing loss, tinnitus etc and its a very complex set of parameters.
Everything between the recording and your ear is a filter. EVERYTHING.
Wires are just another type of filter. If you are driving ESDs you probably have very different requirements for warmth. I was using a warm sounding amp, into some warm sounding speakers, in a carpeted room with a number of wall hangings. I went for a silver clad high purity copper cable. It gave the system a bit more clarity especially in the top end.
I also enjoy the psycho imaging. Enhancing the sound stage is important to me. I look for equipment, including wires, which enhance that.
I think phase is the least mentioned yet most important aspect to sound. It is thee phase relationships which define the music, especially the imaging, and it also is important when considering speaker placement. If you get multiple arrival paths from the speaker to the listener, some of the frequency will be in phase and some will be out of phase. When it is in phase, it is additive and will make those frequencies louder and when it is out of phase it is subtractive and we get spectral hole punching. The skin effect in wire messes with the PHASE relationships and creates multipath within the cable itself. The electricity near the surface can slow and arrive a very minutely delayed time intervals than that which is traveling deeper. Its these time intervals which tell our brain location of the sound. We use that in everyday life without even realizing it. Poorly made, rough wire can exacerbate the loss of this information. This is the reason some companies polish their wire in an attempt to get their wire nearly perfectly smooth. Oxidation also can create similar effects so they try to eliminate as much of it as they can through high purity wire, insulation, factory sealed ends and contacts of precious metals. Precious metals because they don't oxidize and preserve the music, especially the phase. All these Extras in wire manufacture costs more.

People who say wire doesn't make a difference because you can't see it on an oscilloscope really don't understand sound. Even someone who is pretty good with a scope and has a decent scope, has a hard time catching phase differences in narrow-band tones. Music is broadband noise, ie spread spectrum. Catching the phase of broadband noise is much more difficult. It can't be done without very sophisticated equipment. In short, oscilloscopes aren't ears connected to a highly trained neural net, like yours. (Chances are if you are reading this you have a highly trained, acoustically centered neural net, congrats.)
You can't tell Jagger from Hendrix from YO-YO MA, much less see the rosin dripping from the horse hairs of his bow with an o-scope. Ok, that's an exaggeration. I never heard his rosin but you can hear the coarseness of the horse hair. You can't capture it on an oscilloscope. But the more accurate the system, the better you can hear the hair. I like to hear the hair.

In the recording studio, the musician can play with his setup to get the sound he wants. He can adjust things to make up for the variables of the room and yes, the cable he is plugged in with. Importantly, there is a different cable for every mic and instrument. In our home setups all the music is combined and pumped through those few cables. I think they should be pretty good, much better than studio grade.

My brothers are professional musicians. They don't really "get" the audiophile thing. They are really only interested in how the music is put together, the performance.
I think most musicians look at us a raving madmen.
But then we are.
Nick

@ Aintitgr8, great story on the cables, I believe you 100%!, what I am about to say, I care less what any one thinks or believes!, cables are the most profound important part of any system period!, I have a exspensive system, guess what? the cables cost way more than my very exspensive componets, lets see here, Taralabs very best everything!, man-o-man does these cables make a difference!, I absolutly have no regrets ever!, to each their own, see ya.

The retail price of my system is about 15k-20k euro. My speaker cable costed me 50 euro for a single run of 10meters. I cut it into the proper length myself.

Airegin... If the "self-righteous nincompoops" you're referring to are the same people that are asking the present administration to "stop spending money we don't have", I'm proud to be one of those a nincompoops.

Kijanki is exactly right. Velocity of electrons in copper audio wire with signal flowing through it is about a meter an hour.

"Show me a judgmental person who has made up their mind wire is snake oil and it's a 95% chance they are republicans."

The observation about audio wire is one thing, though on the most grave matters affecting everyone they don't sound the least bit remorseful after sandbagging the US economy for billions in lost revenue, causing pressure to downgrade US credit rating which drives borrowing costs for up for everyone, or for eroding the confidence of our foreign trading partners/buyers to name but a few ramifications. Demagog's are destructive and self-righteous nincompoops.

@Aintitgr8,
Are you at liberty to disclose what high value cables you were using, and what "usual suspect" cables they beat? Thx.

Democrat here -- well actually way left of that or anything on the American political spectrum. Not sold on cables -- especially power cables. Am sold on the infinite suggestibility of human hearing and the infinite capacity of people to delude themselves and others when there is money to be gotten doing it.

Kijanki, good answer!

This was an Aerospace engineer as he liked to call himself, he was an electrical engineer for a local defense contractor that makes rocket and propulsion systems for weapons. He wouldn't put more than $150 into interconnects in his $40k system because he had measured the "differences" between lamp cord and interconnects and couldn't measure any difference....I'm thinking okay, here we go.

I was a dealer for Meadowlark and this guy came to me wanting $12k speakers even though he had very respectable ones that cost almost ten grand. My position was that if he wasn't happy with the speakers he had he had other issues like wire, and here was where he was off to the races about how he was an electrical engineer and wire doesn't make a bit of difference. We ended up where he was challenging me to prove wire makes a difference, so I said we'd do it in his system. He had several audiophile friends who were going to be there for extra ears to evaluate differences. Also I brought the speakers because I wanted to make the point that if we popped new speakers in his existing system it was not going to make the difference he was looking for. The first order of listening was to hook the speakers up and a/b compare them, yes they were better but not what I'd call profoundly. I also popped $1500 power cords on his existing system knowing it would make some difference, but not to the degree of being worth $3000. He of course was crowing about how he was right about power cords, I said yeah wait until we have your system right then we'll see.

Going back to his speakers and listening to wire we started with my favorite interconnect position, which is the source to preamp, and I had an $800 one that outperformed all the usual suspect's flagship models costing thousands more, it was neutral yet as transparent as anything on the market. In spite of the difference being truly staggering he refused to acknowledge any difference. All the other guys and me were laughing and cutting jokes like perhaps he needed to spend a grand on a hearing aid before wasting any money on audio gear when he couldn't tell the difference anyway. He got really funny when he insisted on watching what I was changing because he thought I had to be doing something else to alter the results of switching the cable, this guy was seriously entertaining and had us laughing pretty much the whole time.

So after changing i/c's and going to a good bi-wire cable that was $1100 everyone was pretty blown away by the difference less than $2500 in cable made, and it was agreed that it was a way bigger difference than just upgrading speakers. I'm grinning like a cheshire cat and I say, now let's hear some power cords. The $1500 cords I was selling generally got comments to the effect that those cords on an amp made the biggest single difference customers had ever heard any one thing make That day made the point for four audiophiles that a change done in the wrong order makes almost no difference, but make it in the right order and it can be profound.

I always hate to hear of guys soured by listening
experiences where they have heard little to no worthwhile change, it easily happens.

This was an Aerospace engineer as he liked to call himself, he was an electrical engineer for a local defense contractor that makes rocket and propulsion systems for weapons. He wouldn't put more than $150 into interconnects in his $40k system because he had measured the "differences" between lamp cord and interconnects and couldn't measure any difference....I'm thinking okay, here we go.

I was a dealer for Meadowlark and this guy came to me wanting $12k speakers even though he had very respectable ones that cost almost ten grand. My position was that if he wasn't happy with the speakers he had he had other issues like wire, and here was where he was off to the races about how he was an electrical engineer and wire doesn't make a bit of difference. We ended up where he was challenging me to prove wire makes a difference, so I said we'd do it in his system. He had several audiophile friends who were going to be there for extra ears to evaluate differences. Also I brought the speakers because I wanted to make the point that if we popped new speakers in his existing system it was not going to make the difference he was looking for. The first order of listening was to hook the speakers up and a/b compare them, yes they were better but not what I'd call profoundly. I also popped $1500 power cords on his existing system knowing it would make some difference, but not to the degree of being worth $3000. He of course was crowing about how he was right about power cords, I said yeah wait until we have your system right then we'll see.

Going back to his speakers and listening to wire we started with my favorite interconnect position, which is the source to preamp, and I had an $800 one that outperformed all the usual suspect's flagship models costing thousands more, it was neutral yet as transparent as anything on the market. In spite of the difference being truly staggering he refused to acknowledge any difference. All the other guys and me were laughing and cutting jokes like perhaps he needed to spend a grand on a hearing aid before wasting any money on audio gear when he couldn't tell the difference anyway. He got really funny when he insisted on watching what I was changing because he thought I had to be doing something else to alter the results of switching the cable, this guy was seriously entertaining and had us laughing pretty much the whole time.

So after changing i/c's and going to a good bi-wire cable that was $1100 everyone was pretty blown away by the difference less than $2500 in cable made, and it was agreed that it was a way bigger difference than just upgrading speakers. I'm grinning like a cheshire cat and I say, now let's hear some power cords. The $1500 cords I was selling generally got comments to the effect that those cords on an amp made the biggest single difference customers had ever heard any one thing make That day made the point for four audiophiles that a change done in the wrong order makes almost no difference, but make it in the right order and it can be profound.

I always hate to hear of guys soured by listening experiences where they have heard little to no worthwhile change, it easily happens.

Pop quiz...

1. Who is happiest when electrons pass through a few feet of megabuck exotic wire?
a) the electrons
b) the audiophile
c) the cable vendor

2. Does a $500 bottle of wine taste best when drunk out of a
a) plastic cup
b) crystal wineglass
c) makes no difference if you are just tasting the wine

3. Does upgrading the fuel delivery tube in a Ferrari 458 from rubber to one made of a space age polymer increase the power output of the engine by:
a) 50hp
b) 10hp
c) zero

1. Electrons don't pass thru wire. Electric current is motion of charge and not the electrons. With AC electrons are only vibrating. Energy is delivered on the outside of the cable (Poynting field).

2. Crystal wine glasses since they oxygenate wine better.

3. Hydrocarbons like oils and gasoline will dissolve unvulcanized rubber completely into solution. Once the rubber is vulcanized, hydrocarbons will only swell it (reducing ID). .

Each component is made up of parts and pieces that are connected by "wire". Exceeding the quality of the wire in your systems components is counterintuitive since we all agree that a system cannot surpass its weakest parts and pieces. Buying a $1500- power cord to bring 120v to a $1500- amp is not solid advice as an amateur audiophile could blow it away by any measure with a $2700 amp and $300- power cord. I could see using a quality power cord and i.c.'s but to surpass the wiring that your components use only leaves you with a lot of expensive potential.
Of course when we are talking about "sound" and "music" it is all subjective so PT Barnum lives with us.
If you are spending 5% of your budget on wiring that is probably much higher than any of your component or speaker buiders did buiding the things you are trying to connect.

Some might say "funny" is all the money you made off of democrats by selling them cables.

As a dealer I had obvious advantages in terms of trying a vast array of equipment and cable, manufacturers would send me their complete arrays from entry to flagship with enough to do a whole system. The painful part was breaking cable in to be able to tell what it could do. I also had complete lines of BAT, Belles, AR, and Electrocompaniet, so I could do an entry or ultimate level system and run a gamut of entry to best cable. I used to go into affluent customer's homes where I saw systems well beyond $100k as a rule, they were not happy with what they were getting out of these systems. Wire was the fix, and generally my recommendations would cost them a fourth of what they had already spent on wire. There were times I spent over 8 hours doing A/B comparison work, but it was improvements we heard. Knowing the order to replace wire in is everything, if you start with power cords you won't hear nearly as much improvement as you would if you upgrade I/C's and speaker wire first.

How much you spend has nothing to do with what you are getting or how well it works in a system, many $10k speaker cables will make your ears bleed, especially if you have edgy interconnects on the front end to preamp link. Modest but excellent value components with twice as much spent on cables and power cords will embarrass guys with $40k systems that have lame wire. Once someone was sold on a $1500 amp we would spend two or three hours deciding what power cord they wanted with it. It blew my wife away that half the people buying a $1500 Belles would get a $1500 Kaptivator with it (although I'd give them a great price on a power cord with their amp purchase). In a well sorted out system my favorite $3500 power cords are magic, the kind of difference anyone with ears can easily hear. The equation I used to present was to compare the difference a high end component makes in a good system to the difference a $1500 to $3500 power cord makes, the $10k component makes a fraction of the difference the cord does at way less money. I want to point out that there are a lot of good budget power cords out there that give up 85% of what you get spending thousands, and that's not to say those who can afford it shouldn't get the best.

And that folks is the answer to how much to spend, judge the cost and improvement derived from cable against the difference an upgrade to components or speakers makes. Until you are out at the point of diminishing performance you are not done. Even modest equipment leaves huge untapped performance gains on the table without good wire. Too many audiophiles have figured out how to get their systems to where they can hear substantial differences to worry about those who think cables and power cords are snake oil. There are those who think it's ridiculous to spend anything more than a few hundred bucks on wire, I think it's ludicrous to spend tens of thousands on components and speakers and not focus on excellent wire.

Here's a bit of humor for you, I've noticed a very accurate correlation between those who are vehemently opposed to spending bigger amounts on wire and their political persuasion. Show me a judgmental person who has made up their mind wire is snake oil and it's a 95% chance they are republicans. Now that right there is funny.

this is an interesting forum!I do not know what systems Hifinut604 did test on,I will say I have done the same test with complete oppisite outcome!I even went further with the test than hifinut604 did,$.50cent i/c and $1.00 a foot speaker cable. I can here a huge diference between a $4,000.00 speaker cable and the cheap one,and the same effect with the cheap i/c and a $2,800.00,It was like going from a bycycle to a ferrai!LoL! with all the years I have done test, I believe the cables should cost way more than most eanything in your system,if you know what your doing!,one of my test was a $300.00 yamaha cd-player with resonance control on top and bottom with a $4,000.00 I/C,, woh and behold this out performed a spectral amp,cd-player,and pre-amp with lesser quality cables,,A whole lot of people were laughing! then there was the silence,I thought I about made them cry when they heard the yamaha player with better cables!,very true story!

LOL! Very funny.

After several years on the cable merry-go-round, I've gotten off and find that in a DBT, nobody in a group can tell any difference. I had Kimber, Crystal, Nordost, Cardas and finally an entire loom of Synergistic Research. I'm now running Mogami interconnect and speaker cables I picked up second hand for $100 total, so the percentage rounds down to about 10% only because I still have a Synergistic Research Powercell 4 with T3 SE power cable. I was running a Weiss DAC202 to a Vitus SS-010 so not likely to be bottlenecked by components...

Pop quiz...

1. Who is happiest when electrons pass through a few feet of megabuck exotic wire?
a) the electrons
b) the audiophile
c) the cable vendor

2. Does a $500 bottle of wine taste best when drunk out of a
a) plastic cup
b) crystal wineglass
c) makes no difference if you are just tasting the wine

3. Does upgrading the fuel delivery tube in a Ferrari 458 from rubber to one made of a space age polymer increase the power output of the engine by:
a) 50hp
b) 10hp
c) zero

Think about your answers...

did you say you have a 67,000.00 stereo and you're not happy?
Hum........................?

Power cables is a must for your system. Parts is one thing i will look at. and Matching is the most important. You can have the most expensive cable but doesn't match your system. = useless.
The more expensive your system goes, your power and power cord is more and more picky.
and power cable is best to change it form top - down of the system as well.
another important is the wall outlet as well. change that first, since most cost only $300, and sure will hear a big different even from your FREE power AC.
Just my 2 cents.
Happy listening.

Power cables should be added to Metaphysics list; my experience is similar with respect to the impact that interconnects and speaker cables have made to my system. Power cables also fit that same high priority category and should be explored...

Metaphysics,

It's possible you've received a ton of great data. My thoughts - experience, really - is that speaker cables and interconnects make the most dramatic impact to a system. I’d place their importance in the top 3 most-important. Amplifier, speakers and interconnects. My investment in cabling (Dynamic Design 10th Anniversary Nebula) is roughly 1/3 the cost of the system. It’s creepy the effect cabling brings.

All the best,

Scott Wolff

IMHO, a good front end is incredibly important and like finding the speakers that make you happiest along with amp and pre-amp, are the first thing you should get right and stable in your system. My approach has been along this path and it has served me well in terms of overall baseline sound that I am looking for. After that, it's really a matter of what cables (regardless of price) 'finish' the system and compliment the synergy of components and overall system that you put together. I've heard all levels of cables; some of them give subtle improvements that are good, others cast a shadow on the system according to their house sound, etc. etc.. etc...It runs the gamut to be sure. I guess that when it is all said and done having an overall mix of component versus cabling (which really is a component too!) in mind is a good thing but regardless, the overall priority should be getting the sound you like!

The idea is to find the cable that sounds best to you in your system. Do not buy by price (staying within your budget), but by sound. There are many inexpensive cables that sound great.

Currently I'm at 14%. When I upgrade(have Superconductor +) my speaker cables to JPS Labs Superconductor V I'll be pushing 20%!

Yes Sir. It was Harry Pearson who stated cables should be 10% of system cost as a general rule.
Try as many as you can and you will find ut for yourself.

Talk2me makes a good point...follow your ears:O) I've come full circle myself and find myself having the best results overall with MIT cables. They seem to have improved their products and eliminated some of the problems I used to hear with their older designs. To each their own....Enjoy!!

I have a $100K system and bought $400 cables. Yes, not a typo. :) I bought and sold my Transparent Reference, FMS, NBS, Wireworld and NBS. I currently (after a trial period) bought all Frost Audio BlackFrost cables. In short, spectacular! Forward 6 months later, they close up shop. Go figure. Sucks for re-sale, but these cables are so good and for the price (even if they were $8k) I am keeping them for quite awhile and am happy. Moral of story, do your research, listen to as many cables in your own system, and pick what you like, not what the idiot magazine writers raves about (and gets paid to).