Cable Costs Relative to System

Everybody's sytem is different and everyone has a bias (and some need it adjusted ..Ha Ha!)! I've owned the $18K rigs and the $1k rigs...depending on the synergy between components, you may wind up with a mix of on the cheap stuff and expensive! Ideally, cable should allow your components(if up to the challenge)to convey the full color of the recording in your home...unalterd!! My preference is Harmonic Tech or Acoustic Zen (someone on this site turned me on to AZ). These cables simply let the music flow with any gear...the full richness and tonal purity of the recording is allowed to fill the room...goosebumps are common!!

I believe the cable cost shouldn't be more than 15% of your total system cost. I've done many comparisons over the past 3 years ( over 2 dozen cables.) and only found less than 5 cable makers that made my "acceptable" list regardless of the price. Even from these companies, only certain model and above made the list. I even tried DIY interconnects but just doesn't sound as good as the ones made by professionals.
It is really up to the listener to figure out if it is worth the extra 100% to 300% to get that extra 5 to 15% improvement. Most importantly is system matching.

Here is my favorite cable manufature list:

Audio Note AN-Vx and AN-Vz
Stealth Audio Cable M-21 special
NBS King Serpent and higher
Nordost SPM and higher

I tried to get cable for $500 as my cap. I would pay a little bit more if there is enough improvement to my system.

Let me chime in my two bits, for what's it worth. I agree with Trelja's sentiments but I feel he doesn't go far enough. I recently purchased a pair of HG Silver Lace IC's (beloved by Gonphiles and 47 reviewers on Audioreview) and they sound fine. The problem is that so did my cheap Audio Advisor house brand IC's which are 10 years old.

I noticed no difference in my system with the HG's. If you think my system is not revealing enough, guess again: my speakers are Hales T8's with CJ and Threshold front end.

I do not doubt that there are some of you that hear concrete, definable differences in cables. However, there IS a lot of smoke and mirrors with cables and purchase of ANY cable is frought with pitfalls. I really wonder what percentage of cable 'benefit' falls into the pycho-acoustic realm. As the adage goes, buyer beware.

Russellrcncom, I agree with you. The only problem with all of these testimonials is that they all have to be believed by faith. We hear over and over how much better people's systems sound with inclusion of cable brand X.

My disbelief stems from me being confident that I have maximized my listening pleasures without reliance on cable swapping.

If you accept that Malcolm Hawksford's definitive work The Essex Echo manages to hit the nail on the head (and few have argued with it) then one of the key issues (there are definitely others) with cables is so-called 'skin effect'. While there are various strategies to deal with skin effect, the problem has probably not been eliminated in any real world design (yet).

Skin effect causes phase distortions. It seems to be accepted that while some people are very bothered by phase distortions, others are not. That may mean the latter have tin ears, but alternatively it may mean that those that are not bothered by phase distortions simply have superior brains that are capable of adjusting these phase distortions out of what they are hearing (since that is one of the functions of how the ear and brain interact).

Whatever. My point is that some people may hear little difference between cables, while others may hear significant differences, based on their sensitivities to phase distortions.

I don't care what one calls distortion, it is all unacceptable. That is, if you can hear it.

It will sound like bragging, but like I have said it before, my hearing measures way beyond normal hearing. I hate distortion of any sort. If it is there, I will pick it up.

I use short, pure copper cables and interconnects.

I don't trust proactive cables. Once, I was sharing a Pass Labs X150 with a friend. He plugged it into his system as is. I agreed it sounded terrible. Then, I asked him to switch out his MIT cables with some Cardas he had on hand. Immediately, there was a great improvement.

With my straight forward cables, the Pass amp performed brilliantly.

My speakers are among the most revealing speakers ever divised. My pass amps have the purest circuitry of all high power amps.

My front ends are to my liking, and that is all they need to be.

Some people need the latest and greatest tweak, be it cable science, isolation devices, or conditioners. If they are using frequency mashing cables, I can see why. I would sense something wrong too.

After hearing Transparent Cables I see why those with alot of $$ pay for the exotics!
While those at the lower end of the Tax paying spectrum must hope to find the most cost effective solution.For myself it was getting a 47Labs OTA Cable Kit which could fill in for my internal speaker wire and wire most of the rest of my system. I think it come to about $500 in cables I spent total with the whole system going for $10K New.

As for percentage that it made up I guess it would be 5%. I think now it comes down to getting better with diminishing returns.

Don't blame me, I really enjoy in changing cables. My current allocation is 30% to equipment, 45% to cables, 20% to rack & stands, and 5% to tips and spikes. So, it is time to upgrade my gears and I've almost squeezed the last drop from the existing setup.

It's a system thing. Like one of the other posters said, they are not "accessories", they are an integral part of the "system". If you get chincy on a CDP, you will probably end-up spending more than you would like to "tone-control" out the harshness. If you buy inexpensive components, then expensive cables will probably not help the system much. However, if you spend the big bux to get components that are very extended and resolving, expensive cables will take it to a new level. You will never get the performance out of the components without spending some money on cables. You will always be limiting their performance.

Audioengr has summarized the subject--almost. There are rather inexpensive components that are stellar performers. For example, I recently purchased Channel Islands passive preamplifier. Give it a shot. Dusty's goal is to have a $6K system rival $30K ones. I'm on the bandwagon!

Save yourselves some time, energy and Hassle. Start with the Signal Cable Analogue II IC's and maybe try the new Stu Weinstein design for around fifty bucks. Just start there to have a basis of comparision. You may be very surprised

I would not be surprised. there are manufacturers who do all kinds of foolish things to cables, and there are customers to match.

I will put my system up against any system to see which is more resoving. Any body who has ever heard the well set up Apogee Scintilla would know this.

If you were to have a very resolving system, you'd find out cable science is fool's gold.

I really do not think you should equate cost to performance in audio. I see $4000 amps not worth $400 and $400 amps that are worthy of alot more than they are offerd at.

Cables are system dependant. While it is true that you can get good stuff that is highly priced it is also true you can get good stuff at a lower price also that fits your system and hearing personality enough to be well satisfied.

If you have ever heard an expensive setup that sounded like junk you know what I mean.

I might not have a SOTA system ,but I do believe I have a musical system.

BTW I would own Apogees or Maggies ,Infact I did ,but I had to sell them because of room. The speakers I have now I feel are just as transparent with good dinamics as the Maggies I owned.

They make me happy!

The notion of cables being 'system dependant' is utter nonsense. As with all other components, its about distortion, or the lack of it. But the 'connoisseurs of coloration', like too many engineers and their million dolloar mixing toy, treat their system like it were a musical instrument, contributing to the music the artists made in the hall or studio.

The more components you can put together with the least amount of distortion the closer you get to 'true to the original. At least in playing back whatever made it onto the source media.

Then all you can do is buy and sell disks to collect those worthy of the capability of system to play back what is true.

Of course when your system is a personal perference of distortions to taste, you probably cannot discern a good disk from a bad one. But when it is relatively distortion free, inclusive of the room acoustics, you definately can.

Until then, there is a proven list of reference quality CD's at www.linkwitzlabs.com at the MUSIC link. While you are there check out some of the other links on theory, and practicle application of audio. I guarantee it will be worth your time.

Amen to Muralman1.
Dipole speakers are the path to audio Nirvana. To reslove the shortcomings (rigid setup, and poor bass integration) of electrostatics, check out open baffle dipole systems. www.linkwitzlabs.com The last speakers you will ever buy. Ask anyone who has them.

Homedesign: It is too bad that you didn't apply as much logic or research as you did passion to your post.

Not all components are load stable, nor do all cables present the same feedpoint impedance, even when terminated with identical electrical characteristics from identical components. As such, cable changes can and are component / system dependent. On top of that, some of these differences can both be audible and measurable.

If you doubt this, try talking to Frank Van Alstine* about this subject. Frank is both a designer / manufacturer and one of the most out-spoken individuals in audio when it comes to cables and "snake oil". Ask him if components from various manufacturers all respond identically to cable changes. I'm talking about cable changes that result in variations in the feedpoint & load impedances that they see. Since i already know his answer and the truth about the subject at hand, i'll be waiting for your enlightened response once you delve further into the subject and re-educate yourself. Sean
>

PS... Since you seem to be a fan of his, try emailing Siegfried Linkwitz and see what he has to say about the subject. If he's ever done any REAL testing on the subject with a variety of components from various manufacturers, he'll share the same thoughts on the subject that Mr Van Alstine and i do. That is, cables should NOT affect system performance but most circuits aren't designed / built well enough to achieve this goal. Therefore, their performance is altered to one degree or another when cables are changed.

* I know that Frank knows all about this, as he took the time to educate Julian Hirsch about the subject.

Home Design
I have owned Magnepan and auditioned quite a few Planar and Electrostatic designs before buying them. After that I heard NEARs which to this day are reference speakers and also for alot of other folks. I now own a few sets and I really cannot think of another speaker I could want.

Many factors go into a persons decision in buying speakers. Foremost in my mind is the room they will be using.

I cannot see how any one speaker will ever be as great as what you are saying . It is to much of a personal decision according to to many various factors that nedd to be considered.

Although they may great speakers.Hope they give you many years of happy playback.

It was said once one upgrades their system sufficiently, they will more readily discern cable differences.

My system stands shoulder to shoulder with the most transparent systems.

I have tried a number of cables based on widely differing design premises. All "fancy" cables did nothing but retard various wavelengths. That may be a benefit to systems that handle like frequencies badly. My system does not have wounds needing salve.

Like Homedesign, I just want what the disc has to offer. Short, relatively pure metal cables do best for my system. I really don't care what one or another cable expert has to say.

NEAR?????? Apex, you need to get out more.

Muralman: There is NO way for anyone to know exactly what is on the disc or what it the "most correct" interpretation of what one can hear. That is, unless they were involved in the recording / mastering process of each and every recording that they listen to. That is why "personal preference" is mentioned around here so much.

Besides, it is quite possible that what one thinks sounds "transparent" could actually be shown to be "less accurate" if one took the time to actually take measurements within the system itself and compare various cables and how the system responds to them electrically. While most folks would never think about doing such things, it can be pretty interesting to say the least. The results are not always what one might be led to think they would be.

As far as your comment regarding what an "expert" has to say, the person that i referrenced is not in the "cable game" and is "anti-fancy cabling". Your comment also goes to show that you will believe and act upon your beliefs regardless of what is presented to you. That implies that you have your "personal preferences" and that is all that you are concerned with. That's fine, so long as you don't try to empirically state that your personal preferences are the only point of reference for accuracy or how things should be done when building a system.

If you think that i present information in that manner, think again. I'm simply throwing out my comments based on past experience and the knowledge that i've acquired over the years. If someone else would like to compare contrasting notes, i'm all for it. On top of that, i've always encouraged people to buy what they like, regardless of what someone else has to say. There are plenty of products out there that i don't like, but if it works for you in your system, who am i to tell you that you shouldn't be happy with what you have ? I might not like it and might have had bad experiences with it, but then again, i don't have to listen to it either : ) Sean
>

Sean, my comments were not directed at you. Sorry, if I bruised toes.

You are right, I do feel strongly cable cost effectiveness ratios are way out of line. I did mention, though, specialty cables may indeed calm grunge.

I don't try to cypher the production of every disc. I just judge them against what I have heard live.

The reason I throw water on cable sermons from time to time, is that there are newbies that frequent this forum.

Going solely on gee whiz testimony they read here, they are all too ready to shell out rolls of green for pretty cables, when they should be rolling out that Onkyo cdp.

Hi,,, wow its amazing cause i'm just about exactly at the same price point for the system cost and cable cost as you are. I was quickly adding it all up and stopped at 60k system cost and over 10k on cable cost. Actual cost are about exactly as yours give or take a mere bag of shells. I did the cable thang myself and ended up using Kimbers Select line of cables cause although it was much more expensive than most other common cables it became very obvious to me that my system REQUIRED cable like the top model Kimber Select. I found that I did get what I paid for and the cable turned out to be an absolute must. It made me realize just how much of a weak link the cable becomes in a well matched high quality system that is fully capable of passing a very strong clean extended accurate signal. I found the expensive Kimber Select to pass a very clean efficient signal from component to component with far less signal degradation than all other cable tried. It was shocking just how much of an improvement the cable made. yes i do believe that cable cost is relative to system cost. I would not use the best cable with a mid level system. I also believe in the REAL Industry Leaders who produce cable like Kimber, Siltech, AN Kondo San, Nirvana etc who produce their own wire in house with real technology over most small cable makers who buy spools of commerially made wire from large wire manufacturing plants and repackage the wire and make wild claims. The cables job is to pass an un altered signal, do nothing, and the higher quality and more capable the components are the cleaner and cleaner the cable must be to un alter the best signal the component is capable of sending. I also believe in NOT USING 1 WEAK LINK. No matter how good the components and cables are using just 1 weak link in the chain will only get you the best that the weak link is capable of. NO cable will perform any magical tricks. A good cable does nothing but pass the most efficient un altered signal. From there your using a form of tone control which could yield a positive or negitive result. Start with the best room and use the best well matched components and best matched cables that your budget can afford. NO weak links. The results can be sonic bliss. I also find that all being equal the TUBE yields a more natural musical sound and the old tubes sound better than new tubes in most cases. Its not really as complicated as we make it out to be if done right and you follow the rules. Knowledge is the key.

If you're worried about system matching, spending thousands for cables that may or may not result in a synergy with your components, spend fifty bucks of the Analgue II IC's and start your search form there, you may find that these excellent cables will match more expensive wire right up the scale. To a point of course. But what an interesting sonic journey! If you find something that works better, turn the Analogue II's in for a full refund.

You have awsome power cables. There are steals and rip offs in high end just like anything else. You should not exceed 20% of the cost of the system in cablles because there are some $1000 cables out there that are better than $4000 cables. The best cables I have ever heard are the new Essence cables. Essence is the company that actually builds your power cables and line conditioner under a different name. FMS is also real good but hard to find.

all,
my system is meager compared to what you all seem to have.
The retail value of my system is about 7k

(Tyler Ref Monitors, Rogue magnum 66/88, Cal CL15)

my cables are currently all stock/(with the exception of speaker wire which is
signalcable)

I've been contemplating upgrading my cabling/interconnects
especially after reading this post.
15% would be 900/450 (retail/used)
10% would be 600/300

should I take the leap and toss 300ish on cabling for my system or would that be
money better spend in upgrading other components? (My system uses 2
interconnects, 3 power cords, and figure speaker cable is already taken care of
with the signalcable gear)

any brands in this price range? or recommendations?
geoffgarcia@hotmail.com

http://home.earthlink.net/~rogerr7/wire.htm

not to dredge this back from the dead, but geoffgarcia, i was actually debating the same a few months back, at the time i had a very minimal system (integrated reciever + dvd/cd player, so a single digi-coax and some speaker wire was all i needed). i quickly dumped a good 7-8k into my system in a matter of months, scary thing is, everything seems to have "fit" a ratio of 50-55% electronics, 30-35% speakers and 10-15% cables with 5-10% left over for supports etc (speaker stands, av rack, etc). now - the thing is, i did NOT spend all of that at once, and it went in this order: speakers, then electronics, then cables. in fact, i would bet that your system from a price standpoint is about where mine is now minus the cables.

here's what i'd do:

skip out on buying ANY power cables (for now). or at least, dont spend more than 50-150 on any, and only to power your amp, and a line conditioner. buy a nice panamax or similar (ie somethingin the $4-500+ range) and plug everything but your amp into that. that in my opinion is better by FAR than spending $150x3 for pre/transport/dac power cables etc. get a good cable for that, or at least take and put an RF-blocker (at the component IEC end) on the stocker. get two hospital grade (aprox $10-15 worst case) outlets and put your amp and sub if you have one onto one, and everything else on another. then invest in the absolute best COPPER you can afford (something like audioquest's PSC+ level of product ie coral / king cobra would be a good balance of price/sound for your price range). the ones to obviously pay the most attention to is pre->amp and dac (or player) -> amp. don't do something crazly like a $400 cable pre->amp and $40 cd-player to pre... it's all about balance.

about the last thing to choose / upgrade is speaker cable. now, that might sound CRAZY because let me tell you, upgradeing mine (and i still have lots of room for improvement there i'd say) was the biggest improvement i've ever made save changing speakers -- however hear me out. all of the other things going on in your system make drastic changes to the character of stuff as well, so you don't want to say choose cables that are so revealing that a certain interconnect and speaker wire combo seems waaaaaay too bright or lean or whatever. i'd certainly go with the 10-20% rule and spend maybe half to two-thirds of that on interconncets and the rest on speaker cables (throwing in power cables later except again maybe the one to the conditioner).

hope my recent experiences helps lend a hand, btw to give you an idea of what i consider balanced:

(the 2ch portion of my rig)
B&W CDM1-NT bi-amplified from a Rotel RB-985 using 2 runs aq CV4
Rotel RDV-1060
comparing 1060 built in vs. Cal Audio Labs Sigma vs. CI Audio VDA-1
running aq king-cobra from whichever DAC to Rotel RSX-965
(using it as a pre and to power rears)
running 2 runs of aq coral from the 965 pre-outs to 4ch total on the 985
when using the outboard dac, aq optilink 1 or vdm-1 (toslink vs coax)

it's nothing incredible but i'm absolutely thrilled about it (upgraded from an old marantz dvd player, the 965 as an integrated amp and a pair of b&w 602 speaks). i know on here so many people seem to piss on b&w and it's main-stream-ness and yeah, i've heard a lot of stuff i like besides theirs (lets just say, my next speaker will likely be totem forests) but hey, sometimes the price is right :)

My system is in excess of $100,000 and the interconnects that I now use all Belden 1800f balanced. I have these as bi amp cables and use them on such components as M Levinson preamps 326s and amps 2 dual mono cd/sacd player Esoteric and thats just the audio side.I did use high priced cables but found when I wanted to change the type of termination on my cables that I could buy these Belden cables at a fraction of the price,so I purchsed the cables required and listened to the music there was no difference in sound at all.All those years I had been throwing my money away.Spend on components its those that make the difference not the cables.
Anyone interested look up prices on bluejeanscables.com you will be in for a suprise

Well, here is my two cents worth on cables. I just bought a Rega Jupiter/IO DAC on this site. The Rega supplied digital cable was replaced due to a reviewers recommendation for this combination. I bought an $11 silver digital cable from a guy on ebay because I too was a skeptic about throwing $500 at a cable. I can say that this $11 silver cable made a TON of difference in the sound of this Rega CDP. It opened up the soundstage and turned the muddy midrange into a delight. No longer a cable skeptic.

My next question has to do with a different digital cable. I'm tempted to buy a used Kimber D60 or Nordost Silver Shadow to see if there is an audible difference to this no name cable that cost $11. I'm also curious what difference a power cord will make for the amp. I'll let you know.

My curiosity concerning power cords goes to how your house is wired. Most residential homes are wired with 14 gauge copper. Hmmmmm..... what then is the meaning of a fancy 6' silver cable attached to an 80' run of copper.

My system is low to mid-fi. Everything was bought here on Audiogon. Jolida JD801A(J&J KT88/6SN7EH/Sovtek 12AX7LPS), Rega Jupiter/IO DAC, Vienna Acoustic Bach's, and a Velodyne CT80 sub. Silver 12ga. 50' speaker cables (ebay), Straightwire Encore Interconnect(ebay), and $11 digital cable(ebay). Nothing great but a nice sounding system for $ 2,261. New this system would have been around $5,000.

My thought is this. Buy decent but not the best. I hear more of a difference in the CD's that I buy and the engineering that was done there than I will ever hear in a decent versus ultra-expensive interconnect or power cable.

Digital cables,I compared a kimber digital cable costing in the UK.£570 with a cable from bluejeans costing $40 (£20) I connected both up to a levinson dac with two inputs so I could do a/b tests there was not the slightest difference in them,only the price.Cables are an absolute rip off.

At a recent audio party, we tried a half dozen digital cables between transport, and DAC. It was a blind test. We had: On one end of the scale was a cheapy, with the three RCAs, red white, and yellow. At the other end of the spectrum was a thousand dollar Virtual Dynamics digital. In between were some silver connectors, one I remember being "Homegrown."

All the connectors sounded the same, except, darn, the thousand dollar VD. It sounded better.

We've done some blind testing using digital cables and the winner was always the same cable in several different systems. This specific cable makes use of resistive terminations as described in this article at Borbely Audio.

While Borbely talks about a low grade cable with these terminations working better than a high grade cable without these terminations, the cable i'm talking about was designed to work well in every aspect and then the terminations added. That is, it uses a specially shaped solid core silver center conductor to minimize skin effect, high grade Teflon dielectric and then a braided silver shield. I have this cable in both BNC and RCA form and they both work very well.

The manufacturer also made this in a copper version at a later date, which was still some 10+ years ago. When i called them up to get some info on the silver cables, they couldn't even recall ever making such a cable or any of the specifics about it. I know that this was a standard item though as i've got at least three of them here and my Brother is running one too. From what i've seen, none of their digital cables after this series makes use of materials or designs that are anywhere near as good as what i've described here. The profit margin was probably only 500% rather than their goal of 1000%, hence the decision to revert back to less expensive materials and production techniques.

Please take note that Borbely makes mention of impedance matching being an "old trick" to RF people. As most of the regulars here know, i've discussed impedance matching of cabling and components for many years now. I've specifically mentioned the fact that one obtains the best performance possible when the output impedance of the source component matches the nominal impedance of the cabling used and the input impedance of the load. I've also stated that i only know of one specific manufacturer that has designed their entire product line to do this, so it is not very common within the field of audio design. As such, the benefits of such a design could only be fully achieved if using that one brand of components in every position of one's system.

Outside of interconnects, selecting a loudspeaker cable that displays the proper nominal impedance is also very important. Test results demonstrated the superior bandwidth and linearity of such a design was presented by Audioholics a short while ago. It was no coincidence that this cable, which i've recommended for several years now, beat every other cable tested by a wide margin. The fact that the folks conducting these tests at Audioholics are basically "cable naysayers", and their test results DID show a measurable difference in electrical performance between different makes, models and geometries, demonstrates that there is a method to the madness when designing and purchasing cabling for a specific application.

As i've said before, spec's can tell one quite a bit about the sonics and measurable levels of performance. That is, if the spec's were properly obtained and they are properly interpreted. If such weren't the case, we wouldn't be able to move forward in terms of electronic technology and would still be in the dark ages. Cabling is no different. You don't have to spend a lot of money on cabling in order to obtain excellent performance. You just have to buy competently designed active components, and therein lies the major problem. Sean
>

My system retails for $30,600 without the cables. I'm getting ready to spend $8,700 on two interconnects and a set of speaker cables. When I tried the new cables I found they elevated the whole sound of the system more than changing any one component. They offered me sound that I didn't even know my system was capable of. Down the road I'd like to change the power cords as well.

I recently sold my Hydra 4 in favor of running dedicated lines. A friend helped me and it wasn't a big job at all. I have a dedicated line and outlet for each component. The dedicated lines offered me a more natural open sound with much better range then either the PS Audio Ultimate Outlet I had or the Shunyata Hydra with a Taipan power cord (you need a 20AMP connector). The retail on the Shunyata products is $1,350. I installed the dedicated outlets using Porter Ports for a total of $200. That was by far the greatest upgrade I've ever made for the least amount of money.

My primary system retails for about $15,000; I actually have $8,700 into the components, and could have done better had I purchased used speakers.

Okay, nine grand should be able to buy you great sound, and this stuff is as good or better than ones I've heard costing the same or considerabally more.

I used a dedicated line, upgraded outlet, $300 worth of interconnects, stock power cords and a $50 surge protector.

If I were going to make one dramatic investment, it would be in upgrading the speakers. Sorry to be on of the naysayers, and please don't flame me, but plain, old-fashioned science does not back up most of the hoo-hah around audiophile cables and power cords (and quite a few reputatable component manufacturers will tell you as much).

Rules of thumb never work in high end. Like the saying goes, all rules are made to be broken.

I think you could have spent 10% of that and bought custom cbales and not been able to tell the difference. Active components are far more important IMHO

Metaphysics,
Holy cow,yes you have come to your senses. My system is in the 75k range and I have spent less than 1k on cables. Cables important properties include inductance resistance and in some cases capacitance. Interconnects require shielding. Buy very pure,large gauge low inductance cables with good connecters and you are done. If retail is more than 2k-3k (used sub 50%) you are being robbed. It can be done for less than 1k. Most "high end" cable companies buy their cables from manufacturers and retail them @ 2000% profit.Any component you buy is typicaly retailed @ 5 times cost of manufacture. The reason some of thse cables make your system "sound better" despite not being low inductance,low resistance is that they actually roll off frequeny extremes making so so systems that are not flat at these frequencies more "musical". Take the money and buy better speakers or better source or room improvements.
Jim

Metaphysics started this chat in 2001 and hasn't posted in 4 years. Wow, this is the longest thread i've ever seen.

Anyway, after I had great speakers ($7k silverlines) and tube amps ($6k of Cary tubes) and sources ($5k turntable, $5k CD player), then speaker and interconnects made a big difference.

I made my own cables and used for many years. Replacing my $60 home made thick gauge cables with Kimber Monocles made a massive difference. The system "breathes" now... it has much more dynamic range.

I've done much A/B testing of cheapo interconnects and Kimber silver interconnects (over $1k each retail). There is a major noticeable difference in imagining, 3D layering, frequency rolloff, etc. The silver interconnects worked far better on my tube system than copper interconnects. But, I suspect impedance matching is a factor here.

In my $29K system, $4k are cables. In my experience, the impact of cables is (in order of importance):
1. speaker cables
2. interconnects between source and preamp
3. interconnects between preamp and amp
4. power cables (minor diff)
5. digital cables (no noticeable diff so far)

DJ

Wow...everybody has alot to say! Problem is most of it don't mean jack. Experiment, experiment and then experiment some more..start cheap and only go as high as necessary. Do not read reviews. People with credentials are the worst...mostly spec driven despite having the ultimate cable testers on either side of their heads! I gave up the ultra high-end because of just such mental angst. The music should be first...even if it's being played on a table top radio...all else is obsession mostly!

Indeed - I have a £20K system in which I spent less than 5% on cables - all custom made. I compared with cables cost 100 times 25 times as much and there was no advantage

Check out Arthur Salvatore's site, high-endaudio.com. He's a subjectivist who only believes in what he hears, yet he has a whole section called "The Cable Scam"

Update....found some old MIT MH 750 shotgun speaker cable laying around my dealer. Upgraded speakers to Totem Winds driven by Krell 400xi second time I've bought it). Startlingly good...open, detailed, 3D soundstage beyond walls, dynamic as hell and natural sounding...relaxed! Perhaps at this level I will have to jump at the chance. Originally $1200+...still some around for $550 or less!

I think cable upgrades are important, but way overhyped. I would venture to say, besides a deeper black level and lowering the background noise floor, if you blind test most people, using different cords, plus a stock cord, that you would not notice a tremendous difference between the $150.00 cord and $1000.00 cord.

I have a friend who owns a high end audio store and he told me that cables are like the socks of the clothes world. Easy to stock, easy to sell and lots of margin.

There's no 10% rule. Cables are used to cary a signal and it should do it without loss. It is not a question of $/ft. It is not true neither that you have to spend a thousand $ on a cable to achieve that. If you buy a very expensive cable, it's only camouflage because you have poor electronics and you try to get the less poor sound from your system. I have a 10000$ system and I will never spend more than 2 to 3 hundreds on cables, even if one day I have a 60000$ system simply because I chose the right electronics.

If you buy a very expensive cable, it's only camouflage because you have poor electronics and you try to get the less poor sound from your system. I have a 10000$ system and I will never spend more than 2 to 3 hundreds on cables, even if one day I have a 60000$ system simply because I chose the right electronics.

This is like shopping for the best produce, cooking in All Clad, and using Morton's salt. You have no idea what you're missing. Oh well...

Chrfor, never say never. Some day you may be lucky enough to be enlightened, perhaps.

It's interesting to me, when this thread was started it was full of people who spoke without knowledge, and argued for the sake of argument. During these past years more development dollars have been placed on cable materials and methods of construction. This effort has taken us from one step above Monster cable to some jaw dropping products.

I hear the comments about blind a/ab comparisons and double blind testing, with these camps continuing to speak with such conviction that we would not hear a difference. How absurd these comments have become. No one with any experience with high end equipment could continue to have this view, yet somehow they continue to exist.

I simply shake my head and laugh. For the rest of the people here, we continue to learn and experiment, finding more and more from the electronics. When we started this thread, I was in the camp of the absurd in that 1/3 of my budget was spent on cables. As I look at the virtual systems posted here, I'm now seeing more and more people learning that the cables may well be the most important factor in our system.

Chrfor, perhaps you need to re-examine your confusion. You state our cables will only point out the poor electronics. You are correct, but if you had good electronics then all you would hear is your bad cables. Your system is only as good as the weakest link. I read from your comments this is your electronics. Sorry for you, but as I said, never say never!

jd

You are correct, but if you had good electronics then all you would hear is your bad cables. Your system is only as good as the weakest link.

Well put, JD. I certainly wouldn't expect Pavarotti to stretch his lungs with a Mr. Microphone.

go with the cables you can afford (new or used ) which sound best in your system...

also it makes sense to isolate your lines if possible..

The reason cables cause as much controversy as politics is because most companies that have a great sounding cable made it by accident and can't duplicate the performance in other models because they don't know how. I have heard expensive cables sound bad and expensive sound good. I have heard some cheap cables sound good too.

Add to the confusion the fact that a lot of respected audio equipment is not as good as believed and you have cables compensating for bad equipment like Firestone did for Ford.

The way to really hear huge differences in cable is to have electronics capable of bandwidth in the mega hertz ranges. There are 4 or 5 good cable engineers out there that understand electrons on a molecular level and those are the ones that make the best cables regardless of the price. Most of these companies of course are unheard of brands that magazines ignore and so the true artists go hungry as they always have.

Some of these people have had their designs stolen from well known names who can't design beyond their first fluke.

Allot $100 per interconnect, $200 for your speaker cable and $100 per filtered mains cable and get the whole lot custom made. Solidly enginered cables from any reasonably competent engineer will match anything out there at even a 100 times the price. The whole cable issue is vastly overrated IMHO. The concept of "bad wires" is fallacious - wires just have varying LCR that may make some SLIGHT difference to your system. Of far more importance is the earthing and connection arragements - the rest is voodoo. I have a $60k system and I spent less than $1k on all my filtered mains cables, interconnects and speaker cable. I tried nordost valhalla, kimber etc and they were all worse, or at best no better.

Duane, you make some excellent points. I have no way, nor a need to verify your claims, but you are right on the money with the comments that much of this is stumbled upon. I recently re-cabled my system with Kubala-Sosna cables saving a lot of money from my fully cabled with Nordost Valhalla. K-S cables were developed by starting with a sound scientific concept. They then built a cable to fit that concept, and. each iteration of the development was fully documented, and every iteration was listened to for sonic quality. As they discovered a point where the sonic quality was to their expectation they flagged it. Then they continued to push the performance from there. After an extensive time of trial and error, they eventual got to a place where they knew they had it. This proved out to be the best they could achieve, given the science behind the development, and they discovered they could improve no further. This is what they call their Emotion line. There were two other significant points in the development stage, these are the other two lines of the series.

I assume, but have no first hand knowledge that they will continue to review the science and performance. At some point I assume some new scientific concept (derived often times from the small guy) will provoke a new line to be developed.

My point is I found their approach to be extremely logical and as scientific as cable development gets. It also proved very successful in the performance these cables deliver.

What I have seen with most cable companies is a blind march down the same road they were on ten, fifteen years ago. Cardas, Kimber, XLO, NBS, MIT, Transparent... have done nothing to revolutionize their products; they simply keep trying different dielectric combinations. A few have put new science to there products, Shunyata Research and Nordost are two examples. This has allowed them to make new "better" lines to sell, but often times the performance of these cables has inherent problems, covered up by one aspect of betterment. The rest are simply knock offs with some different construction techniques. (Of course all this is simply my opinion, but that is the purpose of a site like this, so shoot at me if you will. I'm simply sharing...)

The cable business is not voodoo and it is not snake oil, it is fact. Cables make a difference. The cable business is however more often than not a scam. Few of the products in the marketplace are worth the price, and in many cases can deteriorate the sonic quality. These products have done more damage to this industry than anything else I can think of.

Brizonbiovizier, you are correct, there are some great values that exist. You may also be right that they had good engineering behind them. You could even be right about them bettering most products; it is here I do not have your personal experiences. I have tried many home brewed cables, hoping to find the Holy Grail, but form my personal experiences; $200 interconnects sound like $200 interconnects. I do not know if you have ever spent time making your own cables, twisting heavy gauge wires, wrapping Teflon around a run of wire, and then wrapping copper or silver foil, then wrapping... But it takes a lot of time. If a Guy can make a cable for $100, he either is homeless because he forgot to charge for his time, or he slapped together a wire inside a cotton liner. Building cables by hand takes a ton of time (if we expect them to be reproducible.) The bigger companies often become complacent and use machines to mass produce. This is fine, if they are going to charge a couple hundred dollars to pay for there investment, but as you have pointed out, the products are far to often poorer quality for inflated prices.

This does not however mean all cables are hype and over priced. If a cable can make the level of difference some cables have made on my system, then I will buy them if I can afford to. This does not mean I was scammed or anything, it means the cable I buy does the best for what I can afford. For me to doubt your experience would be wrong. I have no knowledge or experience with what you are using. For you to blanket claim you cables will beat brand Y is also wrong. Your experience is the cables you have tried were not that big of deal. That could be a number of issues including your system has some excellent components but there are also a few holes, the cables you have tried may have been more hype than science a, you may have stumbled upon the Holy Grail, or what ever.

I do somehow doubt you have tried most of the product out there, and therefore will take your experience as just that. Your experience. I do however want to point out why I doubt your being fully honest in your experience, your $60,000 system as claimed adds up to $49,965 with $16,500 into the analog front end. I’m just pointing out you may be exaggerating the truth regarding cables as you have tried with your system. I am not attacking you for I agree with much of what you have said; I am simply questioning your claim (mostly regarding your experience with Valhalla) because it simply does not fit your approach to your system. Other than the amps you have built a system very much independent of the hype in audio products. It would surprise me if you seriously spent any time with Valhalla, it simply does not seem to fit your approach to the hobby. That is actually a complement, you have clearly done a lot of research and made your decisions independent of the press, I like that.

Having said that, you have made claims I seriously doubt you can back up. It is blanket statements like yours that confuse so many people looking to get the very best from their equipment. I would feel very comfortable in stating “I do not believe you have heard the capabilities of your $16,500 analog front end.” My reason for this comments, and I think you are quite typical in this, that most people have invested very large dollars (large is a relative term) and more often than not have skimped on some area of the system. (this is the entire point of this thread, “what percent of your budget…”) This leaves many with the weakest link being the level they achieve. Often this is in cables, racks and/or isolation. Somehow we can spend $16,000 on a pair of speakers, but have no investment in isolation, or a couple hundred dollars in wire. To my mind, this thinking is so skewed and illogical.

Sadly these are the battle lines we have developed. “Wire is wire, these isolation products are snake oil, and there is no science…” Why so many have trouble grasping these issues as important is beyond me and why the defiance by many is even more puzzling. I made a promise to myself when I came back to this site that I would not enter discussions about wire, power and the like, because all that happens is anger. But here I am, right in the middle.

I guess I just feel the truth needs to represent too. So Please understand, nothing I have tried to say was written maliciously, for that would progress this discussion no where. If it comes off as attacking, I apologies, it’s a tough subject to not sound attacking. My only reason to share on this site is to help others learn from my experiences and find new friends who share a common interest. I have no interest in a war over something as meaningless as cable talk.

jd