Re isolating the motor: that is one of the major benefits of the PTP3 in a slate plinth, IMO. And that solution does not require any Rube Goldberg devices in between the motor and everything else. (Rube Goldberg was an American cartoonist who made his mark by depicting unnecessarily intricate devices, often involving animals, to be used for simple tasks, in cartoon format.)
Building high-end 'tables cheap at Home Despot II
“For those who want the moon but can't afford it or those who can afford it but like to have fun and work with their hands, I'm willing to give out a recipe for a true high-end 'table which is easy to do, and fun to make as sky's the limit on design/creativity! The cost of materials, including 'table, is roughly $200 (depending, more or less), and add to that a Rega tonearm. The results are astonishing. I'll even tell/show you how to make chipboard look like marble and fool and impress all your friends. If there's interest I'll get on with this project, if not, I'll just continue making them in my basement. The next one I make will have a Corian top and have a zebra stripe pattern! Fun! Any takers?”
The Lead in “Da Thread” as posted by Johnnantais - 2-01-04
Let the saga continue. Sail on, oh ships of Lenco!
The Lead in “Da Thread” as posted by Johnnantais - 2-01-04
Let the saga continue. Sail on, oh ships of Lenco!
1,096 responses Add your response
Hi Lewm, You may well be right, I have a PTP3 on a slate plinth: http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=250.0 and it sounds excellent. Your Rube sounds like our Heath Robinson who did the same thing in the early part of the last century. I am not out to prove this is the best way to build a Lenco, it's my Heath Robinson machine which is turning out to be a lot of fun and sounds great too. Regards, Ian |
Hi Ian, Very nice job on your slate plinth. I see you are also using an RS-A1 tonearm. I have one, too. It's a great choice for a slate plinth, because no drilling is necessary to install one, not to mention that the sound is excellent despite or because of the weird mechanics. I have my slate cut, and I have the PTP3 kit and a "donor" Lenco L75. I just need to seal the slate, paint the PTP3, and then bolt it all together. I wonder what Jean is up to these days. |
"New Lenco LLC" to produce new Lenco idler turntables ============================================ News Release April 1, 2009 In a world seemingly gone to digital disc and downloads, the latest news in the revival of the LP phonograph record is the incorporation of "New Lenco LLC" with corporate offices in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. New Lenco LLC has a manufacturing joint-venture partner in China who will manufacture new turntables following the well-regarded vertical idler-wheel designs of Lenco AG of Oberburg, Switzerland, which built record playing equipment until it became insolvent. The current owner of the Lenco brand, the STL Group of the Netherlands, has licensed the name to New Lenco solely for equipment used to play phonograph records. Consultants to New Lenco include audiophile Jean Nantais, who has long advised stereo enthusiasts to recondition and upgrade turntables built by the original Lenco AG, some almost a half-century old, to attain results rivaling the best turntables available today. Nantais sponsored a long-running Internet discussion thread about rebuilding Lenco turntables, which became the longest-running such audio-related thread since Al Gore fathered the Internet. As a result, Lencos have become legendary. Richard Steinfeld, an expert in phonographic equipment from Berkeley CA., writes, "The cast platter machines bring the Lenco design very close to the audiophile realm, and can make for a very satisfying turntable." In an Internet article on the 6Moons website, Srajan Ebaen writes that carefully-reworked vintage Lencos have replaced high-priced turntables belonging to high-end audiophiles. "Some of these folks already owned hi-cred tables. Their hi-massed Lencos either stomped their modern decks or pulled even - for a lot less money." Longtime audio writer I. Lirpa, best known for his contributions to the lamented Audio Magazine, will serve in a consulting role to New Lenco as it plans and implements production of turntables for worldwide sale. The first New Lenco turntable is expected to be available at dealers in about a year. |
Incredible...A Google search for "Lenco LLC"...which is the name of a company in Newington, CT...now turns up the above April Fool's post, " "New Lenco LLC" to produce new Lenco idler turntables." Meanwhile, I'm a bit puzzled as to the inactivity here, while Lenco Heaven is lively with new and interesting material every day. |
Delignit http://www.delignit-ag.de/index.php?id=22&L=1 is what the German's refer to as "Panzerholz." I hope I make no fiends by not reading through all the postings regarding TT plinths. I am overwhelmed. Where do I start with my quiries about tonearm re-wiring? Panzerholz looks like plywood but is specially made and originally designed for armored cars. You may have seen Suchy's Clearaudio TTs that use it in their plinths. Maybe I am off on this buy my friend Moritz Schley I believe to be the first to use this material in audio, meanwhile for several decades. BTW, it is also excellent as platform (if not exceeding 120cm length), shelf. I just purchased a vintage Sony PS 2250 and googling around came across this thread. Although the original plinth is pristine, I am 'bound for sound' and want to upgrade. Aside from Clearaudio's TTs, the first (I know of) TT to use Panzerholz was called the Boomerang (I wonder why?). My question, should I use just a simple sheet of Panzerholz (it is for all practical purposes unable to store energy, that is, dissipates energy almost in 'real time'), or should I use it layered with other materials, e.g., MDF, or what is best? The material is not low budget, it costs roughly 50 Euro-cents per square cm! Does anyone want to comment on the Sony PS 2250's original tone arm PUA 114? My cartridge is a Zu Audio DL-103R grade 2. Thanks for your helpful input and interest! John |
Panzerholz. http://www.delignit.de/canada/delignit/products/wood/delignitpanzerha.html (both thicknesses are imo 'audio-applicable') My statements are absolute hyperbole. I do trust my ears but other than personal preference, I certainly have no scientific data to back up my statements and should have stated such. I have not seen panzerholz used by itself as a plinth. Both Clearaudio and that Boomerang have it layered between aluminum. Actually googling just now I see that it was used e.g. by audiogoners for both SP10s & 301s http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1227334719&openflup&16&4 and likely before then. I should do more homework before hitting the typewriter keys... apology accepted? My reference to Schley's usage goes back to his wife coming [10 miles] from Blomberg (where it was discovered and perfected) and they've been together 30 years (?), and he professionally into audio close to 40. Be that as it may... Objectively, its density is amazing. It has so much resin / epoxy injected under extreme pressure and heat into the beech plywood that it "makes sense" to me to be an excellent material as in e.g.: non-ringing, relatively uniform in structure, and quite heavy. Maybe there is an interested reader who wants to contact Blomberg and could explain why I find it such an excellent material for audio. Again, lengths exceeding 120cm have 'sounded' all of a sudden poorer than shorter - as were that the maximum tensile strength before neglecting its positive acoustical traits. I am a trial-and-error enthusiast. You may have noted that it is also used as pin planks for pianos. John |
Super-density isn't necessarily a good thing. I recently discovered that the ipe (Brazilian Ironwood) armboard I had made from my replinthed Lenco was dulling the sound to an extraordinary degree. Replacing it with an oak (and now purpleheart) armboard did wonders to open up the sonics. I wouldn't have believed it. Dave |
John, Apology not necessary. I just wondered whether anyone HAD applied a scientific approach to this otherwise completely subjective and empirical endeavor. There are many reports from various sources that suggest that Panzerholz is a great material for plinths, etc. For example, Albert Porter has made some Panzerholz plinths for the Technics SP10 that are said to sound excellent. |
As Dopogue indicated, I got a similar response from Johnnantais as well that panzerholz may be too dense per se for plinths. My friend Moritz says that Boomerang was one of the best TTs he's heard (and he's sold some Clearaudio panzerholz' as well). Both of these are sandwiched aluminum panzerholz models. I suspect that both were also 'tuned' with instruments, be the one with its curvature and 'parabolic' width whereas the Clearaudio looks like the panzerholz is milled. One needs sophisticated machines to mill this material. And the Boomerang was perfected in Berlin where the German equivalent of "UL" is and Moritz happens to know a hi-fi crazy who works there... I saved the Albert Porter plinth website for future reference. I noticed that the panzerholz was cut into strips and re-glued. This changes the structural composition. I've used blocks of Panzerholz for cone bases (like ebony, carbon, etc.) and always turn them this way too. Anyway, my project is to build a new plinth for a Sony PS 2500 and I am saving my panzerholz board as platform for my SS amp. I'll be following Albert Porter's guidelines and likely use sandwiched 2 x 48mm birch ply with 1 x 38mm solid 100mm laminated birch [kitchen counter top] board with 1 x aluminum and maybe another layer of this or who knows. I certainly will incorporate the bronze bearing mechanical 'ground' into steel. This is a far better solution than my attempt 25 years ago to ground a Kenwood KD600 (ball bearing coupled with a slab of Plexiglas). Anybody know anybody who can give me some ideas or inputs? Should I document my work / DIY? BTW, I do have a Clearaudio "Accurate"-like TT PS (the German CS PSN), as well as a 'vintage' TDK power filter that came, was rescued from a defunct refrigerated warehouse. |
I have my doubts or questions as regards inserting a layer of alu or other metal midway in a wood plinth. The danger is that one may be creating an internal reflective surface that will bounce energy back up toward the turntable, instead of permitting it to dissipate in the nether regions of the plinth. (At the interface of two dissimilar materials, energy is transmitted, absorbed, or reflected, depending upon how the two materials interact with each other. This effect is governed by a constant for the two materials that is called the "coefficient of transmission" or something like that.) It all depends on what happens at the panzerholz/alu interface. And that I do not know. |
Thanks Lewm, as the French say, "d'accord," how right you are. I have not even taken receipt of my 'new' used Sony PS 2250 and I have blue prints already finished?! Thanks to all your feedback I shall think things through, which I admit I have not done yet, prior to kicking the chain saw to life. I tried to turn a Kenwood KD 600 into a Linn Sondeck, er, LP12 years ago and, objectively, now probably should and just will sit back and listen to the vintage piece and let it 'speak' to me. No reason to re-invent the wheel (thanks, e.g., to Jean Nantais and Albert Porter)... Still, anyone who has interest in directing me towards achieving the maximum fidelity possible out of this imo gorgeous piece of equipment, I would certainly appreciate it. My slab of panzerholz is going under my SS amp... and my sand/lead shot filled box is going under my TT atop my Target wall mount (at least are my plans tonight :) |
Don't know if of any interest to anybody, but I will start making a moded Lenco in a panzerholz plinth/base. Details here: http://lenco.reference.xooit.fr/t146-Au-commencement.htm in French though..... Cheers, F. |
Francois, I have some limited reading comprehension of French, because I have studied Spanish and Latin. In going through the thread, I saw interesting photos of what looks like a bearing assembly. Can you tell us whose product that is? Is it available for sale or just something that was custom-made for or by one person? Thanks. |
Hi Lewm, Do you mean this picture? http://img44.xooimage.com/files/1/4/4/2-ed6d2c.jpg This is a home made mod on the original Lenco bearing. The idea was to provide a firmer bottom for the spindle to rest on, firmer than the original metal disc and circlip. This is not a commercial product as I made it for my personal use. Rgds, F. |
08-20-09: Nickiguy 08-20-09: 4yanx I've still two Lencos spinning. Glad to see you post here again. I always admired your work, and thought the original thread lost a valuable member when you bowed out. Seems as though it has been a long time since you posted on VA too. Nickiguy And of course, 4yanx, you're always welcome over at the new New Lenco Heaven site. A lot of old Lenco hands would love to see what the ol' artisan of plinths has been up to. All best, Mario |
Etch, Glad you solved your problem, and I apologize for the humor at a time when you needed help. However, I am hard put to visualize how you could have "knocked the bearing out" while removing the platter. Did you whack the spindle too hard when trying to free up the platter? And for a serious response to your earlier dilemma, I strongly recommend anyone to visit the McMaster Carr website and go to their section on springs. Surely one could find a suitable substitute spring from their vast selection. Even if you don't want a spring, McMaster/Carr are an invaluable asset for hobbyists. For reasons that now elude me, another knowledgeable Lenco-phile told me he prefers a real spring to an elastic, despite the fact that a few of the gurus on Lenco Heaven are using elastic. On another note, a few days ago I completed assembly of my Lenco/PTP3 in an 80-lb slate slab. It took a long time to complete because I was trying for a professional look. (Did not quite get there, but it's nice.) This weekend I hope to create enough shelf space to mount it in my system next to my two direct-drive tables. Dave, I am almost ready to get you over for an audition. I think it will rock. Where the heck is Jean? |
Internet audio critic Arthur Salvatore is planning an audition of two Lenco-based custom-built turntables (one is a heavy, multi-platter Lenco with a Graham Phantom arm) against a Kuzma, with air-line tonearm, and a Forsell. He will report on the results at his website www.high-endaudio.com and in the meantime has posted information about the planned comparison listening at Lenco Heaven http://www.lencoheaven.net I am not going to post anything further here; go to the referenced websites if you wish to read more. |
Gentlemen, My Panzerholz plinthed Lenco project is completed and for all those who might be interested in exploring less travelled roads in terms of plinth materials (not the usual birch ply or slate), I can suggest you to read the following: http://lenco.reference.xooit.fr/t551-damping-factors.htm Interesting things there ;-) F. |
Arthur Salvatore has posted his preliminary impressions from critical listening to a tweaked, rebearinged and replinthed (looks like a Jean Nantais) Lenco idler-drive turntable, with a Graham Phantom II arm. Salvatore has already reported that the Lenco/Graham was a better turntable than the Forsell, his longtime reference and itself no slouch. Excerpts: "I feel it is "highly probable" that the Lenco/Graham is the finest turntable/tonearm combination I've ever heard in my system (or anywhere else for the matter)... "...At any one time, I have heard the Lenco/Graham Phantom II outperform, or at least equal, every other turntable/tonearm combination in my experience, at any price, and in every single sonic parameter. In fact, there is not one area where I can criticize it, when I have heard it at its best (with maybe the possible exception of lateral width, but only "maybe"). I find this state of affairs both amazing and inspiring. "However, it is also important to state this contrasting fact: I have still yet to hear this combination do everything, at its best, all at the same time. This is why I am so frustrated, and also hesitant to make a definitive declaration. Still, I am confident that I can, eventually, and with some help, achieve this complete optimization. When I do, the critical details will be revealed and the highly deserved celebrations can begin, because it will indeed be an audio achievement to celebrate." Of course, this virtually guarantees that those reviewers who are Salvatore enemies will try out a box-stock 1960 Bogen B-61 with an old slipping idler wheel and say it sounds like a 1950s kiddie phono compared to their latest monstrosity with a price into six figures. Or they will assume the ostrich position ("I don't see how...") without LISTENING. In any event, prices of Lencos are about to rise. References: Salvatore's site http://www.high-endaudio.com/RECENT.html Lenco Heaven: http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=2348.75 |
Dear Gp49, Have you seen a photo of the actual tt that Salvatore is listening to? If so, does it retain the original Lenco chassis, or has the chassis been ditched in favor of the Peter Reinder's PTP? I ask because I think the PTP makes a big improvement, bigger than any replacement bearing or after-market idler wheel, provided the original bearing and idler wheel are in primo condition. IOW, Salvatore may not yet have heard the best possible iteration of the Lenco. With the PTP, you don't get day to day changes in speed if everything is fastened down as it should be. And of course the motor is much better isolated from the bearing and platter. |
Photos of what he says is a close duplicate to what he is listening to, were posted at Lenco Heaven. It's based on a standard Lenco chassis on a large wooden plinth. It has a special upgrade bearing, added platter mass and a metacrylic mat. Tonearm is a Graham Phantom II. The only differences his will have are the record clamp and the phono interconnect cables. A second test MIGHT be done using the PTP and a slate plinth, but quite some time after the first Lenco shootout. |
Finally! The lenco is getting the review we all know it deserves... Let's all consider ourselves lucky to have gotten one ( or two)! While they were still unknown/unaccepted by 'the connisuers'! My humble Lenco remains unchanged in essence two years on... I think that is a testament to the satisfying wholosity and groovidacious goodness one can attain with these humble machines... For a nuerotic tweaker to say 'good enough' ..... Speaks volumes! Ancillaries will come and go, but tge centerpiece of 'tha system' the mighty Lenco, shall stay! Jean, my belated apologies for not getting that slate to you but a new child, career, and obsession with flea amps, single drivers and horns sidetracked me considerably! It seems that non-welsh slate has been widely accepted as an upgrade, or at the very least, alternative, to the classic cld plinth, and all I can say is: 'amen, and rock on, brothers'!!! Harv |
LENCO GRADUATION!!! Back last September, on my yearly pilgrimage to the Eastern Mediterranean, I stashed a little something in my luggage, in the hopes of getting it through both on-board luggage, and Customs. Stashed in my bags, in a regular-sized bag, was a smaller Lenco, in fact the smallest I have built in years, about 50 pounds all told. Kostas, a friend of mine from the slopes of Mount Olympus, just under the Throne of Zeus, had asked me about a Lenco, and we made a deal. To make it sweeter for both of us, I built it to be included under my maximum luggage requirement, so I wouldn’t have to pay the exorbitant extra weight fees. And also to be able to carry it at all . Worked like a charm, the lovely woman at the check-in desk passed my Lenco (hidden in the bag) no problems, and wished me a good trip. At the other end, Kostas was waiting for me in his car, so I didn’t have to lug the nevertheless quite large Lenco all over Athens. Off he whisked me to Mount Olympus, and up we went as high as we could go with a bottle of wine for us and Zeus, to celebrate . Once installed, Kostas was smitten. I asked him to try to get the attention of audiophiles in Greece, with the aim of ultimately getting the attention of the Audiophile Club of Athens. After all I go to Greece every year, and this is the ne-plus-ultra of audiophile organizations, where better to gain the Lenco’s graduation papers and world respect? I still remember back when I went to Berlin’s phonophono and admired their rebuilt Garrards and Thorenses, and mentioning the Lenco, and their telling me that “We do only serious machines”. This was after years of reports of Lencos outperforming various belt-drives into the mega-buck league. Trust Kostas to not only gain the attention of Greek audiophiles, but to gain the attention of George, the owner of a collection of EMTs no less, and not only THAT, but the KING of them all, the rare and wonderful (and extremely pricey) EMT 927. So, the FIRST demonstration of the Lenco in Athens was attended by 8 witnesses in all, including a member of the board of the new Audiophile Club of Athens, THE most passionate and dedicated audiophile organization in the world, I think I can safely say, and the reason I took the Lenco to Greece. Just have a gander at their webpage to see how deep these waters run. Now, had I known the FIRST demonstration would be against what might well be the finest record player in all of Greece (the EMT 927 can rightly lay claim to being one of the best in the world), I would have somehow arranged to have my best shipped over, at twice the mass. I mean, my plan had been to use the smaller/lesser Lenco simply to create enough interest to eventually lead, after a few demonstrations, to a serious public Shootout involving the A.C.A., so as to make shipping one of my best worthwhile, in the interest of gathering more evidence of the sort I have been after since I first brought the Lenco to the world’s attention,. After all, there is a VERY significant sonic difference between the even a 75/80-pound Lenco and a 100-pound Lenco (quieter, blacker backgrounds, a more balanced presentation, greater retrieval of fine detail, deeper soundstage, more even presentation of bass SLAM and timing, greater “stability and balance” to the sound, etc.), how much more between a 50-pound Lenco and a hundred-pounder?!!? But, the die was cast, and considering the results, I see now that by being “tricked” by Fate (or Zeus ;-)) into sending my least Lenco I have only made the point that much stronger. To make things worse, the little Lenco was armed with only a humble Sumiko MMT and a Benz Glider. But I did what I could, and sent my new bearing and some other upgrades to be installed, to give this Lenco a fighting chance. I’ll let Kostas tell the story via several e-mails he sent me, I, unfortunately, did not attend this demonstration, but on the other hand, no one can accuse me of “hypnosis” or influence : "Just came back from Athens, the demo went well, or so it appeared, since everyone present liked the turntable. comments ranged from "a really nice turntable"- remember, compared to an EMT 927, no less - to ”simply amazing". Most people actually preferred it to the EMT, in spite of the latter's superior tonearm, cartridge and probably phono stage. I have to go right now, there is a lot to do, including re-assembling the Lenco, but it seems the demo was not a failure. I 'll be back with a more detailed report on the demo, probably tomorrow." “The Lenco sat on a specially conceived, built to specification turntable-rack, made by Japanese Zhen monks from a special vibration free wood which only grows on the island of Honshu. You can see it on pic 4. George complains that some visitors mistake it for a common Director's Chair and try to sit on it-can you believe those people? We had some difficulty connecting the TT on the preamp, but Manolis-on pic 2 crawled behind the rack and succeeded in plugging the rca's in the right socket. Manolis BTW, is a speaker builder himself, you can see his creation here: http://www.tuneaudio.com/ “We listened to all kinds of music, rock, classic, jazz, but especially opera, which is George's passion. We made all kinds of comparisons, we didn’t spend the whole night comparing though. However everyone had the opportunity to build an opinion on the Lenco, and everyone was extremely positive, even the aforementioned Manolis who preferred the more, quote musical sounding, end of quote EMT. Now Andreas Economides, (pic 5 middle, sitting,) is the fellow in the board of the new-aca (http://www.new-aca.com/ ) who asked for the article. He was actually ecstatic about the Lenco and told me he very much preferred it to the EMT even now with this arm, cart and cable. Oh yes, and George, the host, would like to hear the Lenco again, in more peaceful conditions after the cart is broken-in. He is a big idler-wheel drive fan George. So it appears the Lenco has made a good impression, don’t you think? “Well, let me try and remember how it sounded: The Lenco sounded more extended on top and bottom, overall it sounded more balanced and had a better "punch" down below, and more rhythm. The EMT sounded sweeter, more relaxed and "beautiful ounding", if you know what I mean. But voices really sounded great when played through it... We made quite a few direct comparisons of music, but on one occasion the record sounded thinner and less full-bodied on the Lenco-it was a Capitol violin concerto recording, Nathan Milstein playing the Brahms concerto on a mono LP. I suspect the recording is really thin and not very full-bodied and the Lenco just revealed its weaknesses. Or perhaps it was just the weaknesses of my tonearm/cartridge combination, hard to say. I am quite sure that stereo imaging and sense of depth were equally good on both turntables. In a nutshell: the Lenco sounded cleaner, more real, the EMT sounded warmer, more "beautiful". I'm sorry that I cant report more details, I spent more time talking to people about the Lenco and answering questions than listening to the TT's myself. :-) “ So that’s Kostas’ report, independent demonstration and report from Athens of an almost-stock Lenco in classic birch-ply/mdf (with a small substitution ;-)) plinth vs the King of all vintage ‘tables – AND many would say record players past AND present . Now the fact it was an al most stock Lenco in classic plinth is IMPORTANT, as no one can point to something else and say “it was not the Lenco but something else which accounts for the results!!” No, the Lenco weaknesses were addressed (primarily the main bearing, making the idler-wheel post solid and stable, and Direct Coupling to a wooden plinth), but it was mostly the same old recognizable Lenco, lovingly restored, improved and set-up. This also supports my report of the Shootout between my much larger 100-pound Lenco I had shipped to Cyprus years back, in which the Lenco outperformed the EMT 927’s little brother, the EMT 930 (bought and restored at a cost of 18,000 euros). But MAN that 930 was fine. I would like to once again thank George in public, look under my “system” page to see the evidence this is not a fantasy, pics of the Lenco under the EMT 927 (and an EMT 950 next to it), and George’s wonderful system.. One can see from his choices, ARC SP11, vintage horn-loaded drivers, Jean Hiraga amps among others, that this man knows MUSIC vs simple Hi-Fi, a true connoisseur. To underscore once again, a 100-pound Lenco would have sounded much more secure, even-handed and stable, and so might have addressed that matter of “beauty” of the midrange, but I know what Kostas is talking about here, as I heard a similar quality to the EMT 930 when I was on Cyprus. In addition, the new main bearing I shipped over would have had a much larger, and more natural-sounding effect when mated to one of my 100-pound Lencos, as it was designed to work with these. Finally, I have gone back to the drawing board, and have rethought and redesigned not only the main bearing, but also the plinth, also to work with the new main bearing, the totality of which not only extracts far more information and energy from the grooves, but more importantly, while preserving and enhancing the Lenco’s magical way with timing and coherence, and simple majesty, all the while sounding much more “natural” and unforced. More news anon. So, I won’t be back to answer questions or otherwise until I have further solid news to report, keep your eyes peeled all. So, I hope you enjoyed this report from the Lenco Front on which I continue to conduct my campaign!!! In the meantime…..Vive la Lenco, Vive la Idler-Wheel!!!! |
Thanks for your nice report, Jean. We missed your writing ! It is not a surprise for us Lencophiles to see that a replinthed L75 sounds as good as a EMT, we even go much further now with newly DIY built of platters, plinth material, topplate, bearings,speed controllers, design,etc... The beauty of these old Lencos is the smart motor/idler design that allows infinite creativity. And with a sound to dye for ! I especially thank you for initially opening the door to this Heaven. Lenco Heaven ! Jean ( Lenco Heaven) |