Brinkmann vs TW Acustic

Philb,Well said your on the money.Thanks.

Dev, sorry on you know everything,but you are totally clueless on how to set up T W ACUSTIC turntable.TW does not need to give you a tour as you have nothing good to say on a wonderful table

Maybe he missed the most important Detail?

The Ultimate Set Up Manual ?

Bottom, right corner ...

Dear Pani: PRAT, well if we take the P for peace that characterisitc IMHO is not a music characteristic. Music live music ina near field is IMHO everything but peace.

I don't know whom " invented " PRAT expression to refer to music sound.

For me and is the way I understand MUSIC live music is a whole experience formed by:

first than all Rythmum, with out that music can't " moves " us can't wake up our deepest " feelings /emotions ". Ryhtmum involve almost all in live music.
Other music main characteristic is the " natural color and its shades " that only music has , this natural color means that music has to be neutral that its colorations are natural and well balanced over the frequency range.
The third main characteristic is that " natural agresiveness " undistorted agresiveness that belongs only to live music.
and last but not less important the: power of music, that power that we can not only hear but feel the same ( in different gradation ) from a drum than from the violin or a triangle. This power of the music where we can know exist only the air between the music and us. This is what gives the music our feeling of " dynamics, transient speed " and the like that's an unbeatable live music characteristic.

That is for me, a simple listener not a musician, MUSIC and that's what I'm asking when I listen to music in a live event that of course we can't achieve in almost any way in a home audio system.

Of course that exist a gradation on those MUSIC characteristic and that's why exist MUSIC with bad ryhtmum or with natural one, that's why exist over colored MUSIC sounds and acurate/non-distorted MUSIC sound.

Yes, instruments makes no music but are a critical factor of what we are hearing. Part of the music natural color comes from there as it comes a part of that rythmum.

MUSIC is a subject very complex, more complex that the analog home experience, that invloves not only the instrument quality, presentation stage/venue, the " firm hand " of the leader group/director and many other factors where maybe the most important part belongs to each one player " skills/emotions " during playbak and obviously we can't diminish our each one " mood " during the listening music session.

Music is an universal language and we have not to have studies of any kind to understand: music. Music is so perfect that it takes by it self the " tools " for any one can understand it.

PRAT or no PRAT has no importance because MUSIC speaks by it self. PRAT is an audiophile denomination.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Ebm, it doesn't take rocket science to set-up a TW table but then again you would not know because as you stated above you had someone else do that for you so you really are the clueless one. Can you actually offer any constructive information besides you normal silliness.

Adding to that Ebm I still owned my AC3 at that time when I was inquiring about a tour and was looking to purchase the BN table something that you can only dream of owning.

Still no one has answered, is there in fact a TW facility and if so where specifically in Germany, it appears ghostly.

It's sad that some of you "mostly TW owners" are so close minded on this topic of product but very opinionated about others, all one needs to do is read your past threads so what would one call that?

I personally owned numerous TW product up to their flagship pce, how many of you can say that say I can and will convey my findings be it good or bad.

I am providing first hand information in a discussion, if you take it as bashing or personal well then you have the problem.

These forums are for discussions, I provide first hand while some of you are flying on the seat of your pants and so full of sh..

When looking at product "any" nothing is perfect and the usual is to discuss so improvements can be made.

As per Dgad's reply above, he says he has had numerous versions.

Why would there be numerous versions?

Dgad mentioned his table now is locked in on the 33.3 speed and said he can hear the difference, if the speed was not a concern as so many of you seem to babble about then why would Thomas work on such and why would Dgad write such.

Dgad said the latest version now holds an approx. 20 hour charge. Wonder which version this is as mine only held 4-5 hours, far cry from 20 hours. I sent mine back to Thomas and he said he checked everything but upon arrival still the same.

So why would there be a latest versions if all was good.

AC tables that most of you own you don't even know what version it is, I bet most are the older version with the old noisy bearing which can not be upgraded due to the substantial redesign so you best just get a new table but if you can't hear the difference as most "glow about" really doesn't matter does it.

Why do you think there was such a radical costly redesign?

Come on guys .... wake up already

In the end as long as you are happy with your sound, not looking to improve, don't kmow or can't hear the differences than so be it, individuals whom I know are looking for improvement's just like Dgad otherwise he would not be trying different versions would he.

I'm thinking of buying another TW BK to actually see if there are any improvements :-)

Wrm57,
What I see are a volume of attacks by Syntax,Dev and others in every thread that mentions TW.
As Dev has mentioned ,his current system is far from his first and I would think Syntax had other components prior to his current listing,Yet they do not bash,knock ,downgrade these other components that they have moved on from.
I'm not writing to defend TW although I do own the GT and 10.5.and they certainly dont need my defense.
Please re-read Dgad's 04-15 post it just about sums it up but I still wonder what is Syntax and others real objective.
I'm sure its not to save us from the horrors of a great turntable

I think both Raul and Dev are right too in their assessments. And I agree no product is perfect and if there was one and we could afford it, everyone would own it.

Onee thing that strikes me from Dev's post is the noisy bearing in some TW models with the 'old bearing.' I purchased my TW AC-1 about a year ago and I've noticed two different looking bearings on internet pictures. Ones with a 'flat-top' bearing and ones with a slightly convex top to the bearing. I have the slight convex-top bearing and the housing at its end (inside platter) has a slight concave shape to it.

This bearing is exceedingly quiet so I am assuming its the new bearing and housing. It is so much more quiet than the VPI Aries 3 bearing/table I had.

A refinement of improvement as the product evolves.

Speaking as a Raven One user, I do not feel the Brinkmann is any less well made. Indeed, I’ve often admired the manufacturing quality of their product and tend to see them as a reference for good manufacturing.

One of the items that has emerged from the discussion which I suppose relates to all turntables to a greater or lesser degree is neutrality.
What should one consider to be the design properties of a neutral turntable?

Since we appear to have been focussing on them, the Raven/s consists of -
- Heavy, essentially non-resonant chassis, comprising polymer/metallic components.
- Heavy, inert, sonically dead platter, closely matching the impedance of vinyl.
- Large, closely toleranced main bearing made to within 10 microns or so.
- Unsuspended construction which “grounds” any internal vibration (albeit, typically of unsuspended, allowing ingress in the opposite direction…)
- Speed stability which is relatively beyond reproach.

Given these characteristics, one wonders if neutrality is as questionable as has been suggested if indeed the above factors are important/relevant in achieving the ideal of Neutrality?
(Which returns me to my original question – what are the salient mechanical properties of a neutral turntable?)
I would have thought tonearms would offer a great deal more opportunity for colouration and resonance than an inert platform?
Indeed I would suggest that such construction offers the chance to hear the differences between those tonearms and the discovery of where their unique resonances lie?
Better a well damped design than to have metallic resonances circulating around a suspended closed loop with nowhere to go?
Just to put things in perspective I am also an avid fan of what the Acutus does (pardon the pun) but it is one of the most expensive suspended T/Ts around so I would demand exemplary performance for such a price. The Acutus has its own ways of managing resonance. Even at its price point it is hard to beat but no turntable is perfect.

Turntable choice is and always will be a personal one. All turntables sound different. Each turntable accessorised differently will sound different again. Good examples of perception changing accessorisation consists of supports and platter mats. Platter mats e.g. Ringmat vs Achromat, are capable of changing the sound of a turntable from Dr Jekyll into Mr Hyde (which is which will depend on your preference). 2 radically different sounds from radically different mats – undamped vs damped.
50% might buy a turntable with one but not the other.

I should also give Stillpoints a mention. Several years ago I discussed the usage with the Company and they defended the rules of use i.e. loosely not tightly screwed to the underbody of the turntable. Odd but true. The object is to use the screw as an additional form of decoupling. IMO the greater the overlapping area the more energy gets sunk (or sourced). Once weight is applied to the thread (reportedly) it locks and does not micro-rock. For this reason I tend to see Stillpoints simply as a multi-stage minimum-coupling mechanism. 3 stillpoints must be better than 4.
Kind regards,

Dev,I can buy a BN anytime i want just don't have the room,just got BN 3 motor unit upgrade ,Please my money is none of your business.Keep on trucking.

wrm57, I agree that it looks like TW owner are rather defensive. Unfortunately, you have to look at who is doing the bashing as well. So far Syntax said that he heard BN at a dealer in a system which he is probably not all that familiar with and somehow managed to pinpoint exactly that the fault of that system is with the turntable. I don't recall his background and his other exposure to TW but this does not give me much confidence to think that he knows what he is talking about.

He still cannot justify or explain the difference in calibration method, Timeline vs Kab strobe and how relevant that difference would be. It kinds of remind me a story of a guy who drived a Toyota everyday to work in a bumper to bumper traffic at 10 mph. One day, his rich uncle gave him a Ferrari which he drove to work in the same bumper to bumper traffic at 10 mph. At work, he proclaimed to his colleague, Ferrari is so much better, it can go 200 mph easily and he made it to work in half the time it would take him in his old Toyota.

Syntax also has the habit of jibing at products that he does not seem to have much knowledge about just because he thinks he can get away with it. Not too long ago, his comment regarding Minus-K just left me wonder if this guy is for real!

Philb7777,

As for the bearing. My Raven AC was one of the earlier units. The bearing was convex on top. Similar to the BN. So is my BN. I think the diameter might be different. Both Dead quiet. Maybe 10 years ago there was a different type of bearing. But as the Phantom had a 1,2 Supreme and upgrades within the designation of each TW has done upgrades as parts have changed availability. This is the same in any industry. I also know that as items are in the market over time feedback will lead to design changes and upgrades. Also manufacturing will evolve as demand changes. A good company will work as such.

Dev,

To answer your question about the motor controller. The Raven 1 had a different style motor controller with a flip switch. Then came the upgraded controller that many people purchased including myself. More elegant and a bit better sonically. Those are the only 2 I know of of the non battery varient. I know the buttons have changed due to changes in availability but nothing major.

As for the original battery PS mine needed to be upgraded as my batteries would no longer hold charge for more than 4 hours. I had my BN for 3-4 years. They were 6 hours originally.

Dev,

You purchased a second hand unit. And had no direct dealer support. Not from Jeff and not from TW. So your batteries were already old. Anyhow, I changed my batteries but at the same time changed the board. I heard a notable improvement and tested it on my Spectrum Analyzer. It was spot on 33.33. Sound was impressive. I decided to do a battery run down test. Next day it is still going. Finally I did it again. Same thing about 20 hours (I think). I emailed TW about all. His simple interchange is yes, batteries last much longer. Which is excellent. I then said it sounds better. He then answers, he learned a few new things. Enough said.

To Answer Your other questions and get everything in context,

I bought my table from TW directly. Been to his house. Heard his system : Amazing Cessaro Horns system that reveals everything. Wow. Saw his office, factory you name it. He has some customers with high end systems that are beyond anything that you would see on Audiogon. Massive horn systems, top of the line dynamic speakers. He knows how his turntable sounds by listening to it in multiple environments with purpose built state of the art systems.

This was several years ago, but years after I purchased the turntable. I went to the Munich Audio Show and visited TW, and did some sight seeing in Europe and visited my other halfs family in Holland which was very close to TW's office.

Dev,

As for the calibration of my custom made suspension for my turntable. One thing I want to emphasize is that once I changed from the AC to the BN I needed to make more space on my rack. I had to remove some devises I had on rack that acted as a ballast and really brought the resonant frequency very low. It involved some major changes. I was able to remove and add springs in different locations to get it correct but it took some effort.

Similar to matching a tonearm to a cartridge to get the resonant frequency in the right range.

It doesn't sound like your Minus K was optimized for your BN. Sorry. That is how I see it. No insults, I just bet your AC worked better than your BN based on your descriptions.

Dev, if I remember correctly, you mentioned once that you bought a Minus-K that was customed ordered to fit Raven AC-3. When you bought BN, Minus-K was too small and you had to add a larger platform on top to accomodate BN. I don't remember all the detail now but that's what I remembered. Raven AC-3 is 49 kg not including controller unit. BN is 60 kg not including controller unit. If you have to add a bigger shelf, overall load is going to be quite a bit higher. Standard Minus-K usually has on specific weight range of around 10-15 kg max so it may be possible that BN may not be ideal match for your specific Minus-K. I don't know if you account for the weight difference already or not.

Dev,

Now for the wonderful watch story. I never bashed the dealer on this one although I was very unhappy that the cartridge in question had a compliance that varied from sample to sample. I had a loaner sample from a friend that worked perfectly on an SME V and was just magical. It was resonating at 10Hz. Can't ask much better.

So I made a deal. The one I received was completely different in terms of suspension and didn't work well in my SME V. I was very disappointed. I never bad talked and I am still not. Anyhow, the deal wasn't smooth. Namely the watch he wanted only came on leather strap and expected it on Alligator. But it just doesn't come that way and was never alluded to coming that way. And furthermore, it could not be ordered as they don't make it. And everything was brand new.

I have sold a few friends watches. After I purchased equipment from them. I do believe that fine watches and analogue kind of relate. Don't you?


Maybe you understand this and maybe you don't. Lashon Ha Rah won't get you anywhere.

I can give you several experiences where manufacturers have not lived up to all my expectations. But some have exceeded them. But I don't make it my mission in life to Bad Talk.

On a very positive note, I bought a Harmony One remote. The Lithium battery died and swelled up inside so I couldn't change it. I called them to see if I could send it back and pay to get the battery changed. They told me 3 things. They mentioned had my remote for 3 years. It was no longer under warranty.

AND the third thing, They sent me a new remote free of charge. What amazing service. My VTL preamp and my Apple TV remote and my EMM all are controlled by it. Great company. I hear they aren't doing that well with the remotes anymore. But so few of us take the time to mention anything good, just the bad.

So people wonder why TW owners defend their product so highly. I guess it is due to the excellent service from the people at the top. The forum that allows people to exchange ideas. They create a loyalty by providing an excellent product and service to go along with it. Unfortunately some people seek to destroy this and of course it would be upsetting.

It's unfortunate the turn this thread has taken. It's a pity that most TW threads end up this way. The OP asked an innocent question regarding a comparison between two reputable brands. I suspect he had no clue this would lead to so much bile.
A little over a year ago I was happily plying my TW AC1 when I turned for upgrade advice to Dgad and Dev, the only two known practioners /owners of the TW Black Night on Agon.Thanks largely to the sensible advice and encouragement from these Gentlemen I took the plunge and added the Black Night 3 way motor and PSU to my TW AC. It was an expensive decision and I am happy that I made. It would be churlish of me not to thank and acknowledge Dev's fulsome praise for the TW BN combo and for nudging me in this direction along with Dgad.
I am unable to fathom what went so wrong......?

Dgad said;

Dev,

You purchased a second hand unit. And had no direct dealer support. Not from Jeff and not from TW.

THAT'S AN OUT RIGHT LIE, who told you that CRAP! You need to get your information correct before posting such malicious false information.

So you THINK you know so much who did I buy mine from?

Even if it was purchased second hand which it wasn't what happen to all of the praise from owners on threads saying that both Jeff and Thomas stand behind the TW product, what a laugh that is. You are just digging TW further into a hole and I must address such when you try to discredit me.

How many TW's BN tables do you think there were sold when I purchased mine that made their way to Unit States threw JEFF?

Jeff is the North American guy right or are there other ways like back door deals so Jeff doesn't get his ridiculous chunk of change.

As you wrote you purchase direct, shouldn't of yours gone threw a dealer out your way.

In the end non of this has to do with the merits of the tables them selves does it.

In relation to the Minus K which I still own, the remarks made clearly demonstrate lack of knowledge.

The bearing in my BN table was not similar to the one in my AC3 and I have personally seen three different ones.

Dgad, I really don't care but there is allot more to the watch story than that which is going around. I'm sure you paid allot less for your table than what I did.

Amazing how you heard IMPROVEMENTS once you had your controller changed "upgraded" and admit it would only hold 4 hours on battery and would not hold accurate speed but once done hear differences.

I suppose that goes against all the other remarks in this thread from others suggesting I didn't and couldn't and trying to discredit and freaking out about it.

As mentioned I did send my controller unit back to Thomas of TW "ON WARRANTY" and said he changed the board and batteries.

Look I understand any product will have changes, hopefully for the better and these forums are suppose to be for end users sharing information but for what ever reason TW owners specifically "some not all" freak out if anything is mentioned.

You whom will know still have yet to answer my other questions but when you asked I did, why is that?

Is there something to hide?

Many seem to make reference to Syntax who does have allot of knowledge but no mention to trolls such as Ebm with their one liners whom post on many different threads making reference to TW being the best which is crap! Firstly there is no best, secondly when he post specifically in reference to TW never constructive adding anything. All one had to do is read his past threads hear and on other topics threads and can clearly see. Like I stated before all praise for me from him but once I made any comments in relation to the TW product FLAWS only replies with iodic remarks as some above which clearly demonstrates his lack of credibility.

I laugh when I read some write;

You are clueless in setting up a TW table but that same person also writes he had his set-up for him.

So who is the clueless one.

I'm sure his controller is an older version but can't even hear as both Dgad and I have stated, what a joke! :-)

What really disgusts me is that especially one bigmouth is trying to derail always and every thread, in which the words TW Acustic or Raven are mentioned. And he is almost everytime successfull. In this thread he led dev and dgad to a sideshow. He is very knowledgable, but he is also a troll [--> red herring]. He has not any / *none* personal longterm experience in listening to a TW Acustic turntable (yes, syntax, we all know that some your buddies had/have a Raven turntable, e.g. kha...).

Yes, I'm also a satisfied customer of TW Acustic. I'm a happy owner of a Raven AC turntable and am very happy with Thomas' great service. To clarify: My rant has nothing to do with my ownership of a Raven turntable. It's just based on syntax' negative, destructive participation in *every* TW Acustic thread at A'gon and in many other audio forums. I also dislike syntax' hype on some of his friends audio products or products his friends are trying to sell. Synax is not in audio business, but he is - from my observations - very active in viral marketing...

P.S. Syntax: how is your Apolyt turntable project going? Any progress in the last two years? *pressing thumbs*

Hi Sunnyboy1956,

thx, it's great to read you are enjoying.

You asked what has gone wrong .....?

Obviously directing towards me, nothing really. Just sharing my findings with others but then some "mostly TW owners" take such as a personal attack on their credibility and do their normal thing by replying as one can clearly read above in some of the postings.

Then you have others that feel one can't hear the difference if the speed is not locked in and try to discredit, for the life of me just makes me laugh. If they can't hear what I or others can "Syntax" what can I say.

Dgad even in his postings above has clearly stated he could hear the differences once locked in on the proper speed.

I originally enjoyed my BN table "gorgeous appearance wise" but quickly found there were flaws upon set-up and usage and addressed such directly with both Jeff and Thomas which mostly went on death ears.

Well that's not totally true I did receive a very rude reply back with not so nice language from Thomas when I was addressing the issue with my controller and not being able to keep an accurate speed and what I was hearing and another one from Jeff suggesting it's "arm" not being set-up properly.

When I had issues I asked numerous others experienced individuals whom I know for assistance, those issues I had never changed with them either.

Still have the emails.

Table

-Not being able to lock it in and hold an accurate speed

-The three pulleys on the motor

-The nipples for attaching the feet

-Controller battery issue

and lastly the 10.5 arm.

What's ironic is when I sold the arm to a new owner because of my dissatisfaction this person actually started a thread.

He also found there were issues, one being the magnet was reversed. I and others who assisted missed that one upon trying to figure out what's going on, I received copies of his conversations with both Thomas and Jeff and one that stands out suggested CLEARLY saying the original owner must have switched the magnet around. How hilarious is that.

Dev,
You mention BACK DOOR DEALS so Jeff doesn't get his ridiculous chunk of change.
I'm curious did you get your VAC electronics through the BACK DOOR so the dealer can be bi-passed or does your VAC dealer and the maker of your other components deserve their ridiculous chunk of change.
I have know idea what may have happened but it seems like this is really a vendetta against one of the recognized GOOD GUYS in this industry.

Dev ,You may have cash but ALWAYS talk TRASH!!

Goldeneraguy,

what a stupid post and again clearly demonstrates what I have wrote above, you obvious have no clue when I wrote such do you but Dgad and some others do.

VAC, purchased using a Vac dealer whom has been such for years which I've also dealt with for years. Same goes with the rest of the product I own except for my recent purchase of a used pair of EA MM3 speakers.

Emb, your posting above is so full of crap and not true. You and others have a problem being challenged, you try to BS others.

Just look at the OP's posting and the first reply being yours saying;

04-07-13: Ebm
TW Acustic best sonding best made.

What do you call that? Joke!

Dev,

I don't live in the US. Hence I have no dealer or support. So I purchased direct. Anyhow. Tired of this thread. You have my email if you want to take it off line. If it goes up a notch it will only get more dirty. Sad to see you we're that so unhappy to go this far. TW or Jeff must have done something terrible to you.

Glad you get along and agree with Syntax. I don't agree with much of what he has to say although he can be knowledgable at times. But, his superiority complex is something that insults me and many others here. You obviously can accept it.

Since I did answer your questions I am lost what you are going on about. Also curious what bearings as I have seen a few at shows and the two that owned. They were all convex.

You are welcome to visit in Aruba and have a few drinks and hear a properly set up turntable. I am sure my system will be very different In sound from yours as you have some very fine equipment that probably is more to your liking.

I just don't get it. My table sounds amazing. My biggest limitation is the lack of good vinyl. The invitation truly stands. I know it is cold where you live.

Hi Blammy,

well aren't you just doing the same thing but in actual fact worse because your not being constructive, what makes you different.

I recall sometime "years" back that your name came up in conversation, don't you write for a German analog mag.

One would think that you should disclose such, was your table a long term loaner. Did you purchase outright prior or did Thomas provide such for you to try.

Dev the king of sour grapes.Keep on trucking JERK!!

Dgad,

I recall where you live and thx for the invite. As I wrote early we have had numerous great conversations.

Weather, it's spring time where I live so it's up and down but I'm currently in my place in Hawaii so it's very nice indeed! :-)

TW product, it's two fold, see below;

One being that it get tiresome reading misleading posts from TW owners suggesting such sounds the best and built the best as per Ebm first posting on this thread.

It's just not true

Second being I'm just providing first hand experience be it good or bad just as others do about other products in general but I find allot of TW owners appear to take it so personally as an attack.

It's only product, you even mentioned numerous changes to your existing product was a positive.

Bearing talk;

The bearing in my BN had a ball bearing on top and inside the platter the fitting at the top portion was green. The AC table I owned and others I have seen where not the same and had different bearings. The Raven one had a complete bearing change over also and couldn't be upgraded, same goes for the AC tables. Easier to just purchase a new table. I wonder just how many variances there are.

I'm curious about the BN tables mainly because of what you mentioned saying the bearing was the same in his AC table, when I purchased my BN due to my prior knowledge which was never openly disclosed by TW "Jeff or Thomas" or any owners I had asked wanting confirmation the table was the latest design and nothing in the works in relation to changes specially the bearing.

I was told it was and nothing was in the works, still have the emails from both Jeff and Thomas for confirmation.

Ebm,

your last posting is the usual one liners because you have nothing constructive to offer and only offer sarcasm and clearly demonstrates your character.


Don't forget to take your meds, did you get your left hearing aid or is it your right one checked as of yet, maybe that's what your problem is I'm not sure. I'm sure your controller has the same FLAWS as both Dgad and I have mentioned with ours, time to send it in but if you can't hear the difference really doesn't matter does it.

Hmmm.. I found a review of KAB strobe on 6moon that claimed that KAB strobe error is +- 0.03%, that's +- 0.001 rpm so any turntable that is measured ok on KAB strobe should have a speed of 33.333+-0.01 rpm or 33.323-33.343.
Pitchwise, to change a semitone, you need 6% error, so KAB strobe would give maximum of half a cent off (you get 100 cent between each semitone). Some author claims threshold for audibility difference in pitch is about 5-6 cents, one study on student musicians showed threshold of +- 12 cents.

Timing wise, about +- 0.3 second for a 20 minute tracks.

Typo above, +-0.01 rpm, not +-0.001 rpm as I typed in one place.

Dev , We all try to save money and where or how you purchased your TT is not an issue.Your remark that you didn't want Jeff to get his ridiculous chunk of change and yet was willing to give your VAC dealer his commision shows you have something against Jeff.
What is also puzzling is that although your TW table was purchased through diverted channels you would then ask Jeff or Thomas for assistance.
You have an outstanding system,I wish you many tears of enjoyment
As for your mention above that my question was a stupid post I'll just chalk it up to you having a bad day.

Goldeneraguy,

can you read, your assumptions are just that and not facts, you are in lala land like allot of the other TW fans.

See below what I wrote in response to Dgad.

Now read it slowly;

THAT'S AN OUT RIGHT LIE, who told you that CRAP! You need to get your information correct before posting such malicious false information.

So you THINK you know so much who did I buy mine from?

Dev,Mr Wonderful thanks again you may kiss my A--.

.... Dev had a lovely supper ....

wrong timing :-)

times were always tough ...

Dear dev,

I recall sometime "years" back that your name came up in conversation, don't you write for a German analog mag.

One would think that you should disclose such, was your table a long term loaner. Did you purchase outright prior or did Thomas provide such for you to try

Huh? I have never written and I will not write for any audio mag. I'm just a simple guy who likes to read in some audio forums. And I have no relations to Thomas Woschnik, except that I am a customer of TW Acustic.

Or as you would say / you said to another participant of this thread:

...your assumptions are just that and not facts...

and

Now read it slowly;

THAT'S AN OUT RIGHT LIE, who told you that CRAP! You need to get your information correct before posting such malicious false information.

So you THINK you know so much who did I buy mine from?

Move Along, Nothing To See Here. ;)
Sincerely
Blam!

Dev,Really!! Of course I can read.And by the way comprehend
also.Which is what you fail to do.
This has nothing to do with your reply to Dgad.
I'm now starting to wonder if your temperment allows you to appreciate the music.
Calm down and try to fully understand what posters are saying.
Syntax isn't upset

Those commenting on TW Acustic are a lively bunch. Where are the Brinkmann devotees? And what about the original question?

Goldeneraguy,

if you can read and comprehend then why make such ridiculous false accusations asking again when I have already addressed such.

If you know so much tell me and others whom I purchased my TW product from if it was not from a TW dealer, if you can't then shut up already about this.

It really isn't all that tuff you know;

1- Thomas is the manufacture of the TW product correct.
2- The product supposedly is manufactured in Germany and ships from there to the US correct.
3- The product would be shipped to Jeff for any North American sales and he wouldn't just pass it along without getting his cut right.
4- So who would I have gotten my BN table and TW product including 10.5 arm from if Jeff wasn't the US source.
5- Thomas wouldn't do any back door deals would he.
6- If Thomas doesn't then the source would have to be Jeff right

Hello, it really make me wonder about some of you guys. :-)


Yes I love my music do you, who are you to preach to me when you make such ridiculous lame accusations. I really don't care what you or others are saying because most have no clue and just ramble on with no actual facts, I have been to many members places after reading their rave postings to only be disappointed left wondering.

It's important to provide information for others reading so they can see both sides know what they are in for.

How many of you knew what I have conveyed, obviously TW knew there were issues otherwise why such dramatic changes and not just simple tweaks, some of you guys are just puppets on strings and so naïve.

I'm replying my personal findings that I found while owning TW product, numerous individuals have been trying to discredited and switch over to another topic just as you are in your last postings.

Lets keep to the facts at hand which I have mention, I will gladly debate. Even Dgad another BN owner was nice enough to admitted some of my findings "short falls of the BN" are true. "Speed issue and battery" Reading I think he may not have the latest version bearing either which would mean ...

I know it sucks to find these things out when some of you feel you have the best but that's life, don't take it so personally it's only product. If you are happy then why worry, be happy and enjoy listening :-)

Dev,

Ball bearing? My BN does not. Green inside the platter but my bearing is similar to my AC which is a steel shaft that is convex on top. Are you sure you had a ball bearing?

Any photos. From what I understand they are all the same design and the shaft can be changed but the platter is more difficult to change the sleeve.

Aside from your troubles with design, you did mention liking the sound a lot originally. What changed. L

My experience has been either cartridge setup or phono stage loading make a huge difference. As for my turntable, one thing I found is if the spring based suspension system I custom made was loaded wrong it would collapse the entire analogue experience. Bass would muddy and highs would lose extension. The key is that the music must not travel into the arm and effect the performance of the cartridge.

I have redone the set up on a few friends systems and the improvement in sound was incredible. I feel that you can bring the best turntable and compare it to a simple Rega and the Rega will outperform of the setup allows for such.

Peterayer,
The whole post is Brinkmanship, you just have to look at it with a sense of humour. I suspect the Brinkmann owners are busy listening to music.

The funny thing is nobody seems to get the point that Dev had a Raven or 3, went to an old Micro. Do the Raven owners club seriously think someone would upgrade to a turntable that sounds worse ?

Same with Syntax, he can obviously afford a Raven, if it was better than what he has he'd buy it.

The funny thing is nobody seems to get the point that Dev had a Raven or 3, went to an old Micro. Do the Raven owners club seriously think someone would upgrade to a turntable that sounds worse ?

Yes Dover.....that is a 'funny thing'.
There are many posts on this Forum from Dev 'pushing' the whole TW turntable menu.....from the Raven 1, the AC1, the AC3 to the Black Knight.
And the costs involved in this exercise are quite considerable.
You would have to believe that Dev had heard many other turntables before investing in the Raven brand........from his numerous posts, you can see that he had.
So the Ravens at many stages.....sounded better to him than other turntables?
Then suddenly.....not?
That's fair enough.
We all grow in our 'upgrading' quest.
Yet peculiarly I don't find many posters who 'rubbish' the equipment they owned along the way?
If the Ravens sounded better than other turntables at a previous stage in Dev's development.......perhaps the old Micro will meet the same fate at a future time?......perhaps when Dev's infatuation with Syntax subsides?
In any case.......how can you trust his fickleness?

Halcro -
Yes I do agree with you. I have seen some audiophiles go complete circles in TT's, finally ending up where they started.
Unfortunately analogue is a "sum of the parts" scenario, and I have seen too many mismatched TT's/arms/cartridges, notwithstanding poor set up from even experienced audiophiles such that dissatisfaction sets in. What happens is they "upgrade" but the cycle of discontent from mismatching and poor set up starts all over again.

When I read his thread I am reminded of the middle ages when someone (!) discovered that earth is not flat. I think the guy used a spyglass (Timeline) for his discovery a least it supported his research. Learning from some postings in this thread questioning the ability of the Timeline or of some units with deviances (??? just assumptions, never proved) couldn't it be that the leaders of the defense line are slipping into the same role as the FLAT supporters in those days did?

It is the spyglass which is the problem! Isn't it? Damn it!

I have seen some audiophiles go complete circles in TT's, finally ending up where they started

Good point, I've met a few such owners. But don't judge them, not everyone is really looking for the best possible reproduction, they all say, they do (they need a reason for spending money and that is ok) but they also want something they "like". Be it the color, be it the Design, be it a listing in Stereophile Class A, be it a price the neighbor can't afford, be it a limited Edition...be it the ambition to be a respected Audiophile member because the turntable is 45k and everyone congratulates ...

You would have to believe that Dev had heard many other turntables before investing in the Raven brand........from his numerous posts, you can see that he had.
So the Ravens at many stages.....sounded better to him than other turntables?
Then suddenly.....not?
That's fair enough.

I think, everyone of us starts with the same positive feeling, or hope when buying something (no one buys something when he knows before that it is nothing special)...after some time the splitting begins, but that is an individual one, some still like what they have (for whatever reason) and some discover after some time that the unit has some flaws which can disturb more and more (I am one of those, I am not Jesus and of course, my priorities are not shared from everyone. But there is a difference between "don't like it" or "there is definitely something which is done better from other manufacturers").
That is normally a basement for discussions which can show a way for the reader he can use. It is his decision anyway.

What happens is they "upgrade" but the cycle of discontent from mismatching and poor set up starts all over again.

That is very common to say (the owner is too unexperienced, too stupid, he has 10 left thumbs ) but from my experience in the last 15 years, it is not matching. Except you have a real problematic design like the LP12 with its wood frame, springs etc. but the most units out there are the way they are. Maybe you can win a bit with leveling :-), but not 50% gain in Performance when a turntable is level and running.
What sounds bad is normally bad.
What sounds wrong is normally wrong.
(Same with demos .. room is so bad...mains is so lousy... I heard demos at exhibition shows which were stunning... just an example, I never heard a Mark Levinson demo which made me sit longer than 3 minutes but they sell / sold a lot. So, I am simply not the right customer for it. The difference is probably, that I can say why I don't like it and what kind of electronics can do that better, but that is my opinion. Can be shared or not.
It is very, very difficult to go back, to be honest to yourself, saying," oh man, I burned 30k with my whatever". Had this situation 12 years ago when I got an invitation from a record collector and I got a demo I never heard before... and no DIY stuff, no ultra rare units, all with available brands.. but simply with units which were able to mere the curtain... all the hours when driving home I thought about it and to make the story short, I knew, there are only 2 ways:
To deny what I heard (would save me a lot of money) or to realize what went on (costing me min. 70K)...I made my decision.

I also know an example from an experienced (say, he spent thousands of $$$$) Audiophile, sitting in a top demo and finally he said: "this kind of soundstage is filled with so many information, it does confuse me. I don't like it".

Anyway, I think it is a difference to read about design solutions which have some serious flaws (the reader has also 2 choices, he can deny it, or he can check it) or you get these competent 1-Liners from Ebm.
Well no. We are Audiophiles, that means, there is always a third option. A Dgad option, always avoiding to talk about a problem, instead to move the discussion in a total different direction (Personal Problems, Hate, nice guy being treated badly, wrong delivered, Set Up made from uncertified Set Up Specialists, not owning the latest version (it is the 8th version from an identical product but there are differences only a few know) and so on and on...
Don't get me wrong: I love all 3 versions, but for MY decision I have only one.

Dgad

Funny you mention your spring suspension being off with muddy bass. Sounded a bit like mine but I mentioned slow bass.
I put 2 additional springs under my platform to make 6 and the improvement in the bass is substantional. A lot tighter giving more detail through the mids and upper frequencies. Overall the table is a lot more enjoyable playing music.

This just goes to show the double edged sword of high end analog audio. All a bit frustrating really as I am sure there is better performance available.

Considering the TW turntables (& lots of others), Is there a isolation system that either TW recommends or that users out there believe is the best to get the most out of the TW or any non suspended turntable?

Cheers

Thuchan, I definitely would like to hear your view as well regarding Timeline. I am not denying that TW does not pass Timeline test. Syntax has been avoiding a direct question that I asked a couple of time but may be you could answer it then if you think I am blaming Timeline. Nowhere did I state that Timeline is inaccurate and it is definitely has less tolerance than Kab Strobe. However, it was proposed that TW problem is that it does not have adequate speed accuracy because it does not pass Timeline test eventhough it acheives speed accuracy within tolerance of Kab Strobe.
If this is true, wouldn't you say that most people who are listening to turntable before Timeline's invention are most likely not hearing proper speed either. How would you achieve speed precision on a turntable to the level of Timeline before it was invented. Was there any other way to calibrate turntable to such level. Even now, not everybody is using Timeline to calibrate their turntables. Is that mean that people with no Timeline are not hearing their turntable properly and are just as clueless as TW owner?
I tried Timeline on Micro Seiki SX-777 Air and compared its built in strobe to Timeline and it also failed Timeline test just like TW. Is that mean Micro Seiki is also worthless until Timeline comes along?

Do you think that the majority of records since its inception has been produced to the tolerance of Timeline's precision?

I don't deny precision of Timeline but question its real world's value. May be Syntax should start a holy war against Kab strobes and I assume most other strobes in general and preach that Timeline is the only acceptable tool but for some reasons, he seems to be keeping Timeline as a tool against TW only. I wonder why?

Dear Suteetat: This is one of my posts in this thread that not only has to do with speed deviations but on the Timeline:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1365275848&openflup&101&4#101

I would like to know if any one of those " Timweline perfect " TT already try that " experience " I explain in the post.

It is not only for understand that the myth of Timeline ( that a TT must be inside Timeline. ) but to undertsand what you are hearing over time.

I urge you all of you to do it, belieme me it's worth to do it. There is nothing more rewarded that learn, anything but learn. As better information we have as better audio decicions we can take and certainly not because Timeline that's a good toy but IMHO not the one that define which TT is good or not. As I said in the post: this is an error.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Suteetat,
I use Timeline, Allnic Strobe, Kuzma on my tables. Timeline is by far the most accurate but also very difficult to reach strobe. I wouldn't say that small deviations with the Timeline mean in any case that the table is not working precisely. But if you go for absolut speed control - and we know this is only one parameter - Timeline is by far the best.
I have tested eg. my Micros (SX 8000 and SX 8000 II) with the Timeline. When using the VPI SPS in my flywheel configuration I can reach a stable flashing on one spot.

Proper speed is not an issue of if you are using Timeline or not. I learned that turntable design always concentrated on this important parameter reaching accurat speed or not. Nevertheless I got to known a guy who loved his benchmark system while playing his table with far too slow speed. But he loved this sound. So how should we comment? People sometimes love their systems not knowing what they are doing maybe and like in the dark ages of our history if you tell them they need starting corrections they offend.

Downunder, I am using a Vibraplane under my SUSPENDED SME 30/12 and it makes a very positive improvement. I'm sure it would do the same for UNsuspended turntables like the TW Acustic.

Suteetat, I watched a Timeline demonstration in which the speed was shown to be accurate when the Timeline red dot was on the wall 12" behind the table. As soon as the dot was moved to a surface four feet away, it was no longer accurate. When we discuss the Timeline, I strongly feel that some standard conditions for using the device are agreed upon and followed. I can't afford the Timeline, so I use a KAB strobe disk.

Regarding pitch control: SME turntables and many other belt drive turntables are criticized for not being speed accurate. There are at least five top classical conductors and 10-20 professional musicians in Europe who own SME tables and the dealer from whom they bought their tables recently told me that not one has ever complained about the his table having pitch problems. And this is a group of owners who know how music sounds. I just think that is an interesting observation.

Regarding pitch control: SME turntables and many other belt drive turntables are criticized for not being speed accurate. There are at least five top classical conductors and 10-20 professional musicians in Europe who own SME tables and the dealer from whom they bought their tables recently told me that not one has ever complained about the his table having pitch problems. And this is a group of owners who know how music sounds. I just think that is an interesting observation.

I can't say anything about SME and speed but you find for everything a matching example. May I tell you a little story, it is a bit different, but in a way comparable. A few years ago I was in a group of BMW M5 drivers, some were really fanatic (not me, they were worse), they read the test reports about the car in the car mags (acceleration and so on ). went on the highway in the night and drove all those tests with their own cars...
All were slower. Far away from the test specs...They went to their car dealer who said "Hey, we sold now 50 of them and you are the only ones who are critical.." and shut the door. They didn't accept that, they went with their cars on the dyne for a test ride. At 100mph the engine stopped accelerating. there was an internal program in the car software that "knew" that someone wants to know how many HP the engine has (not all wheels rolling). Normally that story was done. But, they went to a Dyno Manufacturer who also delivered BMW / MB / Porsche and they knew the programming :-) Long story short:
None of those cars had the HP in reality. They went back to their dealer and said, Buddy, we paid for 408 HP and we got 360, max. speed lacks for 15%...acceleration is 1 s slower.... And don't try to tell us some stories, here are the reports and when you don't believe us, then bring us the M5 which was used in the mags for the tests...
Anyway... these guys ALL won, they all got new engines.
The other 45 not.

Dear Dev: These are statements you posted through the thread where you stated that " seep accuracy " issue:

" I'm sorry but to me if you own a table and it can't hold an accurate speed it's flawed, no matter what else you do latter really doesn't matter because the speed needs to be accurate. "

" it wasn't just because not being able to produce ACCURATE SPEED.

," have friends whom also own TW AC's and not one can hold an accurate speed using the TimeLine so go figure. "

" any of you guys actually owned and lived with both TW's AC3 and Black Knight tables and used a TimeLine on either to set-up the speed? "

" The controller does not allow fine tuning so one can not get the speed bang on "

" Dgad mentioned his table now is locked in on the 33.3 speed "

" Then you have others that feel one can't hear the difference if the speed is not locked in and try to discredit, for the life of me just makes me laugh. "

" when I was addressing the issue with my controller and not being able to keep an accurate speed and what I was hearing "

all those information came from 8 different posts.

I asked which was value/quantity of the TT speed deviations, example: from 33.333 to 33.37 or to 33.28 rpm or what ever and till now you did not give us an answer. You always talked on non speed accuracy but seems to me with out knowing what we are talking about: how higher was that TW speed deviation, even you don't speak if that deviation was a constant one or if it has short term fluctuations.

IMHO speak of speed inacuracies is not a fact but to know which kind of speed deviaitions we have: this means we need to measure it if not why are you using the Timeline as the tool to state the TW speed accuracy?

I'm not questioning your very high sensitivity to tiny changes on TW speed, good that you have it. What I'm trying to figure is what in a hell you was hearing on your TW TTs because that tiny speed deviations when before you owned the TW TT probably you already had with your other TTs?

Your main subject is: non accurate speed, fine. I posted that there is no single audio item that's perfect and that all audio items have some kind of virtues and some defects. I posted too that you never mentioned not even one TW virtue and my question is:

is so bad that has not a single performance virtue?, if from your point of view it has some virtues: why did not mentioned?, could you?

The other subject is that you put 90% of the TW culprit to that non accurate speed and that could be a little unfair because TT speed accuracy is only one factor/parameter involved on the whole quality performance level, there are " hundred " of factors ( other than speed. ) that could be easily the culprit of your dissatisfaction on what you heard it.

In the other side, you are talking of " accuracy " when your system goes around non-accurate tube technology trhough the system electronics even at phono stage. IMHO you have more unaccuracies there than on that TW speed deviations ( that today we don't know about the " magnitude " you are blamed it. ).

No I don't want to open the tube technology subject and please don't open it: you only can lose with.

Peterayer posted:

" Regarding pitch control: SME turntables and many other belt drive turntables are criticized for not being speed accurate. There are at least five top classical conductors and 10-20 professional musicians in Europe who own SME tables and the dealer from whom they bought their tables recently told me that not one has ever complained about the his table having pitch problems. And this is a group of owners who know how music sounds. "

yes some one of us could be even more sensitive than musicians/composers and the like of speed deviations and I'm glad to know that you are one of those priviliged audiophiles.

++" In the end as long as you are enjoying what ever it may be that's all that matters " ++++++

Agree with you.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

I think we can all agree that it is possible for a turntable to be "Timeline speed accurate" and sound bad, for other reasons. It is also possible for a turntable to be slightly inaccurate for speed under load and still sound great.

Dear Raul, Your cabeza is como un rock when it comes to tubes vs transistors, but could you not at least admit that the "distortion" (your word for everything that is not perfect) due to "tubes" would be qualitatively categorically different from distortion due to turntable speed aberration. So, why do you even bring it up on this thread? The subject is not relevant.

Dear Lewm: Sorry nto disturb you. IMHO is relevant because Dev is talkind about one critical audio subject: accuracy and things are that he owns tube technology that IMHO is not really accurat Nothing against tubes as you could think, only a " coincidence " and not because SS.

Regrads and enjoy the music,
R.