Boutique caps in oil... reliable?

@erik_squires 

There was a thread that I contributed to just yesterday where I mentioned that I had an expensive Duelund capacitor that leaked, and I got no satisfaction from Duelund or Parts Connexion. I had discovered the leak when I opened the DAC to change a tube. I left it in after cleaning up the leaked oil, and a few years later when I sent the DAC in for an upgrade, there was no more leaked oil, and the technician tested the cap, and i was still up to spec, so no harm done, I guess.

Erik,

As you mentioned wax, no issues with Jupiter HT.

Running now for 9 years and are close to signal tubes.

No experience with oils.

      Back when they were a couple hundred bucks each; I replaced the four coupling caps, in my tubed monoblocks, with Duelund's .22uF 630V, CAST PIO, pure Cu foil's.

      Within six months I noticed a tiny puddle under one of the amps and called Parts Connexion, who instructed me to return all four.

      Apparently: Duelund had a bad run and was replacing any parts from that batch gratis.

      Returned the baddies and received the new caps within the same week.

      I was absolutely happy with their caps and issue resolution.

                                It's hard to be perfect all the time! 

     Some may remember the Black Gate caps from Rubycon.   MAN, how I miss those babies!

      Anyway: here's a funny, cap-failure flashback, related to Rubycon (an EXCELLENT manufacturer), their non-solid, aluminum electrolytics and a major industrial espionage fail:

                            

     btw: It's been a few years (at least eight) since those Duelunds were replaced.

                     Still: wonderful reproduction/no need for Pampers.

@rodman99999 btw: It's been a few years (at least eight) since those Duelunds were replaced.

                     Still: wonderful reproduction/no need for Pampers

Understood. I’ve had the Duelund CAST PIO copper foil capacitors in my speakers and DAC for about 10 years and have experienced zero problems with them. They sound splendid!

@rodman99999 

What makes the Blackgate capacitors special ? I know that they are held in high esteem by many. I lack any experience with them.

Charles

Check out this variety of caps from Jupiter Condenser.

For a vintage sound paper-in-oil capacitor, you might look at their VitaminQ or Comet caps.  According to Jupiter:

These capacitors utilize the same polymerized impregnation fluid developed by Sprague in the 1940s.  Hermetically Sealed and processed under a deep vacuum for several days.  Hermetic sealing keeps oil from leaking out and provides protection from ingress of moisture to ensure long life.  Glass to metal end seals are soldered into tin-plated brass tubes to form leak-tight joints.  Jupiter Aluminum Foil Vitamin-Q capacitors are built to Mil-Spec standards yet developed and refined for beautiful sound.

I have had their Copper Foil Paper & Wax Capacitors 600V in a preamp for around the past 8 years with no problems.

However, I once owned a BAT VK-51SE that leaked out of one of the Bat-Packs.

I have nothing but good to say about the sonic performance of the Duelunds. Organic, beautiful, and zero electronic signature. Well worth the (gulp) price. 

I've never had a Mundorf or V-Cap leak on me.

@roxy54 

I have nothing but good to say about the sonic performance of the Duelunds. Organic, beautiful, and zero electronic signature. Well worth the (gulp) price.

Yes, very impressive natural presentation of music. V-Caps are also very good, it just depends on what one is seeking sonically. I’ve used the Teflon tin foil V-Caps in the past. Duelund CAST is my preference. YMMV.

Charles

I have a dealer that has been looking for a long time for paper in oil caps for my speaker.  The particular caps are probably 70 years old or so.  They can last a very long time, and some vintage caps do deliver sonically.

Only issue I've had with oil caps over many years was Jensen copper foil in Cary amp, well known issue with those caps. Duelund CAST is now my preference by large margin vs others.

@charles1dad -

What makes the Blackgate capacitors special ?

     I can state, as a certainty, when they were used to upgrade existing electrolytics: the component's performance was enhanced.  In my experience: very few ever disputed that.

     What MADE them so special would be more apropos, as they were discontinued about 15-20 years ago, much to my dismay.    When that happened: the remaining stocks were quickly snatched up.

     Far as what made them different/better/special: something about the use of graphite impregnated paper as the cathode and the oxide that formed on the aluminum foil (anode) becoming the dielectric.    Probably why they took forever to settle into their ultimate, wonderful presentation.    At least: that's how it seemed, whenever used in an audio signal path.

     The catalog of the Black Gates was extensive.    Just about everything/anything in electrolytics a POOGEr (ala Walt Jung) could ever need/want, to enhance their listening experience.

      First thing I searched for, when I bought my Cary monoblocks, was an appropriate octet of their WKz caps, that were dynamite in tube amp power supplies.

                              UNOBTAINIUM/BUMMER!

 

I once balked on purchasing Jensen PIO caps due to reports of leakage/failure, but this was approx. 20 years ago.

They are still around, so I assume that it was just a bad production run that made it to market.

 

DeKay

@rodman99999 

Thanks, I appreciate the additional information. I’m curious as an Abbas DAC 3.2 SE is being built for me in the Ukraine by Abbas Zulfugarov. He said he’ll utilized some Blackgate capacitors, Audio Note Tantalum resistors and other selected parts. He holds the Blackgates (Within appropriate moderation he said) in similar regard as you. I always appreciate your informative posts on this forum.

Charles

@charles1dad 

Hi Charles,

I never hears of this DAC before, so I looked it up. I looks amazing, and right away reminded me of Audio Note, although reading the text it appears that it is its own thing, although I was glad to see that there was no oversampling, because I think that is where the magic begins.

What led you to choose it?

@roxy54

I became aware of Abbas via a What’s best audio forum thread. From owner and listener comments I became intrigued. Once I began reading the Abbas website (Russian but used chrome for translation) his philosophy, technical skill and approach reeled me in. We exchanged numerous emails and that sealed the deal.

I’ve happily owned my Yamamoto DAC for 12 years due to its natural sound quality and realistic tonality. I’ve heard many “modern “ high tech DACs (Upsampling/over sampling/filters/algorithms etc.) just not for me. I strongly suspect that the Abbas 3.2SE will go beyond the excellent Yamamoto. We’ll see.

Charles

@charles1dad -

     When @roxy54 mentioned Audio Note, it rang a bell in my empty head and I did a little search.

     Mr Qvortrup also started using Black Gates back in the 80's

     Beside that tidbit: the following is an interesting article:

           https://www.audionote.in/the-black-gate-story

     As I mentioned: BGs take a LOOONG time to reach their prime, so- be patient when you get your new DAC.   

                                    btw: Thanks for the props!     

                It's good to know, I'm helping someone in their quest.

                                          Happy listening!

@charles1dad I will be very curious to hear your thoughts on the Abbas Dac vs your Yamamoto I've heard of Abbas and from what I can tell they, like Sw1x, are emulating the Audio Note philosophy. Having heard both Yamamoto and AN I definitely think there are similarities in sound presentation if not technology, Abbas would seem to be of a similar mindset.

@charles1dad 

 

I also look forward to your comments on the Abbas 3.2SE dac.  I never of them before, but did some reading and find his attitude towards design and parts so darn fresh and wonderful.  A true artist!  Most intriguing. 
 

I use the Audio Note Kaisei caps in power supplies where space is an issue.  They sound great. Bass is deep and punchy in a good way. Mids are nice also.  
 

Nice choice Charles! 

@jond 

I came very close to buying an Audio Note( AN) prior to settling on the Yamamoto YDA-1 DAC. Back in 2010 Venus Hifi was the USA distrubutor for Yamamoto. He was a former AN dealer and loved their products but said they had so many models for every component in their line.He admired the AN DACs but he told me the at the time the relatively new Yamamoto was a legitimate sonic competitor up to the level of the AN 3 series (His words). 

I trusted him as he used to provide AN components for 6 Moons reviews back then. So long story short I got the Yamamoto as it was considerably less expensive. He said I'd have no regrets. He was right about that, 12 years later and I enjoy it as much as I ever have. I am certain I'd had been every bit as happy with an AN DAC. He said musically and sonically the two DACs were cut from the same cloth. Jon, based on your ownership of both, I believe he was correct. Not identical, but very similar priorities of naturalness/tone/timbre/music flow/pace etc.

Charles 

@grannyring  Nice choice Charles! 

Thanks Bill.

i will definitely let you know my thoughts and impressions. Abbas said it requires 3 months to complete the built, but I suspect it will be a longer wait and that’s okay. His approach and attention to the analog stage, I/V conversion and power supply is methodical and each step based on much listening assessment.

Charles

Most now have oil impregnated in the paper , they still have a few with oil 

they are hermetically sealed  and seem to be fine .it was the older Audio note,

land Jensen that used to have leaking issues ,in bat gear in the past issues were the Jensen oil caps ,they are no longer made though.  Buy a Duelund copper foil oiled paper great caps ,never a issue .

@erik_squires, I've used some oil caps in x-overs without failures, but some context might be helpful as to what you application is. I've considered them for DC coupling in amps but never soldered any in that position. Fun post. Some solder most don't. Peace.

@charles1dad Fantastic and good on for 12 years with same DAC, next year will be just ten for me. I too am interested in your thoughts after listening.

Erik - I run a bevy of Russian PIO in a heavily modified MC240 for 4 years, zero issues…. 

Well my applications are in speaker crossovers as well as line level high pass filters.

Right now I am prototyping a little switch that will let me:

1. Switch my HT preamp outs to my Luxman without my need to use the Luxman’s bypass switch
2. High pass all signals to the Luxman amp
3. Provide sub outs

The idea being to integrate my HT and subwoofer seamlessly with my 2 channel system. :) I will need 0.047 caps, relatively physically small so no Coke can sized caps here! :D

you might take a look at the Vandersteen high pass. There are 3 models in relatively small form factor boxes. As you go up the line cap quality improves. All have battery bias to keep the caps formed. I use a Teflon model w my Treo  / sub 3 system and the M7 amps have a built in HP filter. As i am sure you might surmise, beware creating a tanking circuit…. You can see a picture of some of the internals on the Vandy website.

Best to you - keep after the DIY projects, they sharpen the mind and tge ear.

• I was planning a DIY high pass but instead recently added a Marchand XM46 XLR Passive Line Level Balanced Crossover between my preamp/buffer and my amplifiers, which rolls off my main speakers at about 45Hz.  I cannot hear any noise or other ill effects from having the Marchand crossover in my system, but it does result in improved bass.

  

Thanks for the recommendations. The complexity for me is not the high pass filter. It’s a circuit that works on the AVR’s 12V trigger and lets me integrate the sub into both the Anthem AVR and Luxman Integrated.  I think I pretty much have it figured out, but need to shop for nice sounding caps to use.

@charles1dad Thanks I had no idea you were considering AN when you bought your Yamamoto. And did a bit of reading on the Abbas site he credits Andy Grove from AN UK for a lot of his background knowledge and the George Slawa of Sw1x is his protege. A small incestuous design world I have to say I love manufacturers sharing ideas like that. Apologies to @erik_squires for the thread hijack and please create a thread for your Abbas Dac impressions Charles.

The only oil caps that I’ve seen leak (I’m sure there are others) was Jensen oil caps. The Jensen copper foil paper and oil were notorious for leaking within 5-10 years. I never really cared for their sound anyway but after replacing one after another for people I definitely wouldn’t recommend them. Some leaked within 2 years.
V-Caps are amazing and never seen a problem with them. I’ve also seen most Vitamin Q caps still working even at 15-20 years. Not that they sound great but they are good cheap oil caps.
Of course it’s all about the cost you want to put into equipment and sound taste.

We've sampled a number of oil filled caps over the years. I've not seen a type that didn't develop electrical leakage, although I'm sure they exist.

Electrical leakage is where the cap takes on some of the properties of a resistor- a voltage can be dropped across it. If a cap with this problem is placed in a circuit driving a tube or transistor, the voltage that will show up at its output will affect the operating point of the active device.

If that active device happens to be a power tube it could overheat and be damaged. It'd be a real shame if that was a $1200 211 or some such! In a loudspeaker this is likely of no consequence.

Being an OTL manufacturer we had to demonstrate that our amps were really reliable, since the Futterman and other amps prior to our showing up hadn't been so good in this department. So we had the nearly Sisyphean task of convincing the market that OTLs could be as reliable as any other amp. For that reason we simple didn't and don't use oil filled caps.

How about foil paper & wax capacitors Ralph?  Have you seen problems with capacitors using wax? 

I believe you use V-caps which are foil and fluoropolymer film so I assume you do not have problems with them.  I also noticed VH Audio makes an oil impregnated metallized polypropylene film capacitor, that they market as,  “one of the most transparent and musical oil capacitors ever made.”

@atmasphere

Thanks for your perspective. My current needs are as line level high pass filters, so even if there was DC leakage I don’t think I’d care.

I’m a little curious though, is oil-filled the same as oil impregnated?

When I think of oil-filled, I think of big cans from the old days.

I’m a little curious though, is oil-filled the same as oil impregnated?

When I think of oil-filled, I think of big cans from the old days.

AFAIK they are the same. Oil is used to reduce damage from arcing.