I’ve spend the last few days searching and reading about record cleaning fluids for my cleaning machine (Okki Nikki). Wow - there are a lot of options out there. Many more than I originally thought. Some real esoteric stuff that costs a pretty penny. I’m currently going through my entire collection, cleaning it, listening to it and adding it to a Discogs DB. Want to finally know how many I have and have a list of them. But doing this has resulted in me going through cleaning fluid rather quickly.
So many options, so many perspectives on what are the best fluids. What do you all say. I understand that alcohol is a no-no for fluids, but I can’t find out if some of them include alcohol or not. Currently using up the fluid that came with the machine, but no where can I read it if has bad ingredients.
The 2-stage or 3-stage cleaning systems are not going to happen. I did get a bottle of Revolv that I was told was good, and use if for new high quality pressings (as opposed to those I bought in high school).
Anyway, would appreciate some perspectives on good quality record cleaning fluids that don’t bust the bank. Thanks for keeping the sarcasm in check.
Having worked in the plastics industry most of my career I can confidently say that if you are doing a patent field search to find the ingredients in a vinyl resin formulation you will not get an accurate understanding of what’s actually being used by a processor.
A lot of additives, like some of the one’s used to make the surface of the vinyl play quietly, are trade secrets and thus not disclosed.
I will just disagree that all vinyl resin pellets used to make the bisquit are 100% virgin vinyl. As such I will minimize my use of alcohol on the records I truly care about. I hope you can handle this.
LOL - I searched MelodyMate and received a bunch of Porn weblinks!
Back to the point... Lots of discussion about rinsing. It seems that rinsing is cleaning product dependent - would you agree? Maybe it is a good idea for all cleaning, but I'm quite lazy and really don't want to go through a three step process, or having to do a rinse.
Confirmed with the Okki Nokki people that their cleaning fluid is 4% alcohol. I'm going back to ask what kind of alcohol. I assume that is is Isopropyl, which sounds fine from all the counsel in this post. Then we get into splitting hairs on what the potency of the alcohol is.
You can tell I still haven't made up my mind what to purchase next. I figure at the rate that I am spinning LPs that I need something in bulk, not the 4oz bottle product.
voiceofvinyl, that is exactly the thread I commented on before. It is quoting old patent applications. None of that stuff is used in the commercial industry. Look at the comments below in that thread. It is all a big joke. The only stuff in PVC pellets is PVC and Carbon Black. If there were other additives you would be able to find 1000 threads on line about what that stuff is and you can't because I just spent an hour looking to make sure I was not FOS. You also did not read my comment on the Tergitol. Tergitol is an alcohol! All the record cleaning companies want you to know alcohol is bad for your records so you will buy their stuff. Don't fall for it. Cleeds, It is Mr Kirmuss who says that not me. Ultrasound is perfectly safe. Look at your stylus carefully from the side. If you have not bent your cantilever and your tonearm is parallel to the record your stylus vertical axis will be angled around 20 degrees with the tip pointed back towards the tonearm bearing. If it is not I would send it back and ask for a refund. It is angled like that because that is the angle the cutting chisel makes. As for the pressure a stylus exerts on the record that is simple math. You just have to know the combined area of the two contact patches. Use a weight of 2 grams then just convert the whole mess into pounds per square inch. Why don't you figure it out for us. As to whether of not vinyl goes liquid at that pressure I sort of doubt it. As you suggest friction and pressure generate heat. But I know of no infrared thermometer with resolution high enough to read the contact patch of a phonograph stylus. At any rate the vinyl recovers and the wear rate under clean conditions is pretty slow all things considered.
Sorry, but there are many additives used when formulating the pvc resin pellets for molding vinyl records, including plasticizers. These are not applied to the stampers, they are formulated when making the pellets for vinyl records.
Quote: “Most of the added (non-polymer) plasticizers are solvent soluble. Studies by preservationists on PVC artifacts has shown plasticizer extraction with solvents, including alcohol (at concentrations 60% and higher) *6. Hence, it is reasonable to keep alcohol (and other solvent) concentrations as low as possible in cleaning solutions.”
... stick with your distilled water and ultrasound. But you'd
better be careful because according to Mr Kirmuss if you use the wrong
frequency you could damage your record!
My LPs have suffered no damage at all. I've actually tested the US cleaning method: I subjected two different LPs to a 30-min cleaning cycle, which is much, much longer than I use in practice. I then compared recorded waveforms (one made before cleaning, the other after) and found no difference at all.
A record will take several thousand pounds per square inch of
stylus trying to dig into it at a rake angle of 20 degrees but it can't
handle ultrasonic water bubbles?
At 20 degrees, you're confusing "rake angle" (SRA) with VTA. VTA would commonly be around 20 degrees; SRA would be about 90 degrees. This notion that a stylus exerts "several thousand pounds per square inch" has been often repeated, but I've never seen any math to support it. It would be tricky to calculate, because not all of the VTF is applied to the stylus tip - some of it is transferred from the sides of the stylus onto the groove wall. Some others believe that there is extraordinary heat generated at the stylus tip. I've never seen any documentation to support that, either. Measurements I've made with an infrared thermometer don't support the claim.
cleeds, by all means stick with your distilled water and ultrasound. But you'd better be careful because according to Mr Kirmuss if you use the wrong frequency you could damage your record! Lets think about this for a second. A record will take several thousand pounds per square inch of stylus trying to dig into it at a rake angle of 20 degrees but it can't handle ultrasonic water bubbles? Boggles the mind doesn't it?
Black records sound better and last longer because the carbon black makes the vinyl harder (less compressible) and supposedly there are trace amounts of lead in it that act as a lubricant making the vinyl more slippery. I could only find one post on this. There is a post on Vinyl Engine that is a beautifully written sort of hoax where a guy named Vince comes up with a lot of old patents aimed at making vinyl records better by adding this that and the other. None of this was ever done on a commercial basis. The bit about heated PVC making HCL is the funniest part. My guess is that these myths about records were generated by people and companies that make record cleaning stuff as a reason to buy their stuff. I also forget to mention that Tergitol which as voiceofvinyl related earlier is used by the Smithsonian to clean record has a hydroxyl group stuck to the end of it:))) That would make it.......an ALCOHOL. Noe I have to figure out a way to get clearthink to use brake cleaning fluid on his records:)
I use MelodyMate, Australian made, not sure if available and can be purchased outside Australia. I use MelodyMate in my VPI RCM, replaced the VPI fluid and does as good a job. I apply MelodyMate, use the VPI supplied brush, vacuum, then repeat the process with distilled water for a final rinse and vacuum.
I couldn’t read all comments but went through enough, and to the original poster ; I have been using homemade solution for years now that really works and I sell it to folks in MN. It is just amazing stuff and pint jar will last you long long time as you should only use few drops of it and scrub the record. You do have to rinse well. I use the 50$ n under process and my solution by using 1 1/4 shop vac with my own homemade wand and a wooden lazy Susan with dowel rod in the middle for the record and I will say nothing and I mean nothing will beat that setup as I have used multiple systems including spin clean and machines and etc. So if you want to preserve and hear the best from your records then contact me and I will send you some for maybe a trade or work something out. Oh and by the way mofi....poster you should ALWAYS CLEAN your new records as they have pressing dust on them from the factory and static. If anyone wants more information and details contact me. Take care everyone !!
I developed a system about 20 years ago using Disc Doctor fluid and brushes coupled with a vacuum type record cleaner like the VPI. Using a USB microscope, I see none of the debris on the stylus that Dr Kirmuss claims you'll always have unless you use his ultra-sonic system.
Thanks for the tip on the antistatic record cleaning arm. In my low humidity, desert environment, especially in the winter, static is a big issue. I had to modify my turntable motor power supply during the driest times since static discharge at the stylus would cause the turntable to change speeds from 33 to 45RPM.
Oh for accuracy's sake there is one additive to the PVC and that is the colorant which usually is carbon black. Unexpanded PVC is clear, expanded PVC is white (plumbing).
Clearthink, I never intended that we should all use brake cleaning fluid to clean our records. I know for a fact that there are no plasticizers on vinyl records. For fun I used the strongest non polar solvent that I knew would not melt the record to see if I could remove anything from the surface of an old Byrds Record (I have a digital copy) that I had never cleaned. I could not and the record was not damaged at all by the process. I performed an experiment for fun. Voiceofvinyl, the plasticizer thing is a myth. You can see how records are pressed in a number of videos. Raw PVC pellets are heated to the melting point and shaped into a puck at 300 degrees F. That puck is placed into the center of the press with the labels and several tons of pressure are used to form the record. Nothing is sprayed on the stampers. There is no "mold release" and there are no "plasticisers" added to the PVC. Vinyl has to withstand a huge amount of pressure from the stylus, thousands of pounds per square inch. The last thing you would want to do is soften it. Alcohol and even brake cleaning fluid remove absolutely nothing from records.
What's missing from the article that's causing the scanning electron microscope kerfuffle is that in order to look at it with the SEM the record is first electroplated. It has to be, because being an electron microscope it uses electrons.
As for me I still say the best liquid so far is the Scuttlebutt.
Audio Intelligent three step (Enzyme, Super Clean, Pure Water) when they first enter my collection on my VPI 16.5 machine. Place in a new inner sleeve and usually good for years to come.
Can we please get back to experiences with off the shelf products. There have been some helpful posts about several products. Would like to hear from a few others about their experiences. I do respect and understand those that have commented that they have tried many products and found them quite similar. I think that is a valid point.
I am not saying use the stylus to clean, I am saying, most do not need cleaning, the stylus stays essentially clean, meanwhile grub on the stylus will reveal those that do need cleaning.
Voiceofvinyl, plasticizer molecules? Another myth.
Sorry, a plasticizer is an additive to the vinyl formulation that keeps it soft and flexible and the right amount of it helps keep the surface of the vinyl, where it contacts the stylus- just soft enough to help minimize noise while not deforming while under normal stylus/cartridge/arm forces.
I have been told alcohol dries out this additive and increases running noise.
What a load of fantastic, imaginitive, misleading nonsense this guy does not know what he is talking about!
Huh?...this article talks about using a SEM and actually has pictures. It mentions: "
Because records are so dark, they absorb light. So we switched to the Scanning Electron Microscope."
scott69"Many years ago I had the opportunity to evaluate record fluids and brushes. I found little to no differences in the cleaning effects of the 6 fluids I checked. Methodology - I sectioned a dirty record, cleaned them with commercial record cleaners borrowed from a nearby audio dealer and then evaluated the number of particulates per unit of area with a SEM (Scanning Electron Microscope)."
What a load of fantastic, imaginitive, misleading nonsense this guy does not know what he is talking about! One of my companies actually has one of these microscopes so I have talked with my engineering and scientific staff about how it might be used for this purpose because if anyone knows anything at all about SEMS they know they only work on electrically conductive surfaces! You will get all kind of errors and bad data otherwise this is just how they work! You could use an ESEM but they have their own problems mostly related to the pressure the sample is under this guy is bogus so I wouldn't belief anything he says.
mijostyn"You can take brake cleaning fluid and spray it all over a record and rub the crap out of it with a white cotton cloth and you will not see any residue on the cloth (assuming the record was clean) and there will be absolutely no damage to the record. I know that for a fact because I am listening to the one I just did that too!!"
This advise is reckless, dangerous, and uniformed brake cleaning fluid is not intended for use on vinyl just read the warning lable on the product why would anyone take advise from this guy?? That mijostyn does not see any residue on the cloth does not mean that there is no residue on the cloth and to state without reservation, limitation, or qualification that brake cleaner does "absolutely no damage" to vinyl is not supported by any evidence presently offered by this user who seems to think that his simple observations carry any weight, value or authority this guy would benefit from an Introduction to Basic Science course perhaps he will get one when he reaches high school in a few years.
Looking back voiceofvinyl obviously has a lot more experience cleaning records than I do. Tergitol would certainly be a reasonable additive to distilled water and it is quite true that certain fungi will grow on records. Down in Florida I saw many records that were stored in high humidity conditions destroyed by the stuff. You could see it on the records and sleeves not to mention smell it. I suppose if the growth were not that bad you might be able to bring them back. But in reality this is a record storage and handling problem. Records should be stored below 75 degrees in relative humidities no greater than 50%. They should be stored in clean plastic sleeves, upright under pressure by which I mean you should just have a little trouble getting another record in there. The classic orange crate works great until you can design record storage shelves which you can see in any Michael Fremer video. You should never leave your records flat or leaning. Ideally a record should go right from the shelf to the turntable preferably with a dust cover and grounded sweep arm (
https://www.sleevecityusa.com/Antistatic-Record-Cleaning-Arm-p/tac-01.htm) then returned to to the sleeve and the shelf immediately after. The grounded sweep arm has been downplayed by various members on this forum. It does two things. It sweeps incidental dust out of the way of the stylus and discharges the record while it is playing so that the record never collects a static charge. The static charge is created by the stylus rubbing in the groove. Play a record without the brush and if you position yourself in the light right, as you remove the disc from your table you will see dust fly right to the record along with smoke and anything else that happens to be in the air at the time. Play a record with the brush and nothing flies to the record. The only way to improve on this is to play your records in a clean room. The brush is a little finicky in ways. The spindle to bearing distance has to be just right or it will not track the record correctly. Same if it is not clean. I have a piece of felt stuck to the table that I wipe it off on between plays and every so often I'll clean the felt with alcohol and a standard record brush. In 50 years of doing this I have not found a more effective way of keeping records clean in my hands anyway. I do not have a record cleaning machine. No need for one. For the rare outside or used record I use a spin clean with distilled water and alcohol. Anbody who thinks isopropyl alcohol damages records....how should I be politically correct about this. How's about," is susceptible to Marxist marketing schemes." I should also note in regards to my previous post that there are different kinds of brake cleaning fluid. The one I used was one of the old fashioned chlorofluorocarbon type (Freon). Some of the newer ones might melt your record.
The force of a stylus in a groove is tremendous, it will dig any grub out ...
Nonsense. You will not get a dirty LP clean by playing it - even if the stylus is perfectly clean when you start. I’ve become increasingly convinced that many listeners have never heard a truly clean, pristine record, even after using the alcohol and other potions for which they have such faith.
The force of a stylus in a groove is tremendous, it will dig any grub out.
Play, keep em clean, leave em alone, UNLESS, when you check your stylus, it is grubby. Then, clean that one. I need to clean VERY FEW.
I got a batch of Jazz records when young, been in a flood, mold, mildew, yuck. I filled the sink with soapy water, washed them with a soft sponge, rinse with tap water, let them drip dry in the dishwasher rack. Made a bath of distilled water, rinsed them, back in the dishwasher rack to drip dry.
1st play, a few had junk dug out by the stylus for me. Next play, wonderful. That was my free intro to Jazz.
Nothing like having an SEM at your disposal. scott69 how were you cleaning the records? A lot of people are going to say if you did it one way or another you would not have gotten the same results particularly the ultrasonic people. Since you are a chemist do you have any comments to make about PVC and "plastasizers?" My understanding is that PVC is very inert stuff. I find it hard to believe that there is anything that could somehow change the molecular characteristics of PVC to say make it more durable under the 4000 lbs per square inch that it is subjected to every time a stylus passes over it.
Many years ago I had the opportunity to evaluate record fluids and brushes. I found little to no differences in the cleaning effects of the 6 fluids I checked. Methodology - I sectioned a dirty record, cleaned them with commercial record cleaners borrowed from a nearby audio dealer and then evaluated the number of particulates per unit of area with a SEM (Scanning Electron Microscope). Be careful with Alconox, especially solid Alconox as it is very concentrated and will need extensive dilution or rinsing to eliminate the possibility of leaving a residue. And yes, I am a chemist.
Voiceofvinyl, plasticizer molecules? Another myth. You can take brake cleaning fluid and spray it all over a record and rub the crap out of it with a white cotton cloth and you will not see any residue on the cloth (assuming the record was clean) and there will be absolutely no damage to the record. I know that for a fact because I am listening to the one I just did that too!! Damn clean to but the stuff stinks. No residue!! That is it! The best record cleaning is Brake cleaning fluid. Dirt cheap, just spray it on and blast it off with a little compressed air. Do wear a mask.
bdp24, I beg to differ. The only pathetic vinyl collection is no collection. I have stated my position that the best way to keep clean records is don't let them get dirty in the first place. It is an approach that has worked perfectly for myself and several acquaintances for decades with the caveat of used records and the rare occasional salsa food fight. Having said this the single most important characteristic in any cleaning fluid is that it leave absolutely no residue. Distilled water, no residue. Isopropyl alcholol, no residue except when cleeds uses it because it causes him to melt into the record. Oh by the way cleeds there is a difference between a study where you are looking for an effect in a cohort and a simple experiment where you are trying to prove or disprove a simple hypothesis like does isopropyl alcohol damage records. The study needs controls. The simple experiment does not. Right, no residue. A modern stylus can pick up an irregularity in the vinyl down to 0.1 microns. It is hard to do that if your stylus is piled up with gunk. Clean your stylus well with whatever you favorite stylus cleaning stuff is. I use 50/50 distilled water and 91% isopropyl. Isopropyl will not at all harm cured epoxy or any of the modern UV cured adhesives. ( If it did all of cleeds teeth would fall out every time he had a scotch and soda.) Works great, dries fast. Play a record and look at the stylus under magnification. There should be very little if anything on there after just one side. If you have a glob on there you have a problem be it with just goopy records from exposure to smoke or cooking fumes or the stuff left behind by your record cleaner. There is very little magic to cleaners and solvents. It seems to me all these "magic" formulas for cleaning records (Have you noticed how no one wants to tell you what is in there?) are just another audiophile scam. If I were up for a record cleaner I would go for one of those distilled water only ultrasonic guys. Tatyana69, get off the train. Mix 3/4 cup distilled water with 1/4 cup 91% isopropyl alcohol from CVS, Rite Aid or whatever pharmacy you use. Clean an old record with it and see what you think. Let us know.
I don’t have a fancy cleaning machine but I use Lasermedia VNC-8 Professional Vinyl Record Cleaning Fluid 8 Oz Spray Bottle by TME https://www.amazon.com/dp/B017U7LK40/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_rAxqDb8SJYTS2 For $19 and some microfiber cloths like koala cloths it has been the best solution for me. No residue, and makes my vinyl audibly sparkle.
Quite a few responses about home made stuff. but not relative opinion on off the shelf purchases - maybe 2 recommendations? For a simple person like me I can only glean one or two options, when the original poster though there were many off the shelf options, but needed relative comments. I have an Okki Nokki too and notice different effectiveness from each different one I try, but by the time I finish the bottle I cannot remember the name of the one I preferred maybe 2 bottles back! I seem to remember the original fluid was one of the most effective for me (a concentrate then doing a simple add distilled water) but cannot remember if that was an Okko Nokki version or something that I picked up at the time. If someone says I should take detailed notes of each ... I would say I don't have the obsession needed for that to take place. I ask my dealer and he says try them and see what you think. Fair enough but the old memory box is a bit deficient to monitor all the nuances of each product over many years
In the late 70's-early 80's, Los Angeles resident, chemical engineer, and audiophile Toy Shigekawa developed his Torumat TM-7 Record Cleaning Fluid, and sold it though audiophile hi-fi shops until his death in the 90's. He was a regular at Brooks Berdan Ltd. in Monrovia, California, where I often saw him. Brooks sold Torumat, and used it in the shops' VPI, Nitty Gritty, and Keith Monks Vacuum machines, all of which he sold. Brooks also used it at home, on his legendary, insane LP collection, the largest I have even seen in the flesh. It made my 5,000 LP collection look pathetic!
After Brooks passing, shop employee Joe Knight and Brooks' widow (and now shop manager) Sheila Berdan arranged with Toy's estate to put the solution back into production, and formed Groovy Hi-Fi Solutions to do just that. Joe is himself an engineer (as well as a vintage tube expert, collector, and dealer), and he developed a slightly updated version of the alcohol-free Torumat, new model designation TM-8. Great stuff, the best I've used in my own VPI HW-17F RCM. I also have gallon jugs of Last, Nitty Gritty, and VPI RCM fluids, all of which are very good.
BTW...Surfactants and Detergents are not quite the same. Photoflo is a surfactant with limited ability to dissolve oils and grease. It’s purpose is to break the surface tension (wetting) of the fluid it is added to and minimize the appearance of film deposits.
Dawn dishwashing liquid, Tergitol and Liquinox are detergents. They dissolve a lot of the nasty stuff in/on the record. They also have some “wetting ability” like photoflo but I have found I you use distilled water I don’t get spots.
I use a KAB EV-1/Nitty Gritty with Tergitol too, then a rinse with distilled water. Just like @voiceofvinyl said, the Smithsonian uses it, and if that’s the case, it’s good enough for me too. I’m sure they did their research, as did I. No residue, and a super clean n’ shiny LP after the rinse.
I use Tergitol surfactants from TALAS (talasonline.com), put 10-20 drops per each into a gallon of distilled water to form a solution. This is what the Smithsonian uses to preserve records for their archives. No residue.
I rinse with Distilled water.
I do not use isopropyl alcohol because a chemist friend claims alcohol dissolves plasticizer molecules and can make the surface of the record brittle raising the noise floor. I also found that using alcohol increases record static.
I use a device I designed and prototyped myself using a special bristle material that I prefer. It’s a mechanical agitation system.
Sometimes, for moldy records, I use TTVJ Vinyl-Zyme Gold. It helps quiet records by removing light mold infestation. It will not fix mold damage.
I believe Liquinox (from Alconox) is a concentrated, anionic detergent good for manual and ultrasonic cleaning. I talked to a tech rep at Alconox and he said it is perfect for vinyl record cleaning.
cflayton has an excellent suggestion. I have no experience with Alconox but am quite familiar with Photoflo, also a surfactant which reduces the surface tension of a liquid. It comes in liquid form so no need to dissolve a solid substance. It is a product produced by Kodak meant to eliminate drying spots and residue on films. Can be easily found on the net or at most any place that sells photographic supplies.
Decades ago I was discussing this topic with an audiophile record store owner near Ohio State. He had a chemist friend who came up with the following formula: 1 gal of distilled water 90 ml of isopropyl alcohol 1 tsp of Alconox (a surfactant frequently used for cleaning labware; Photoflo should also work)
If you use Alconox, slowly add water to it and stir to get it to dissolve without clumps.
He claimed that the chemists tested the records after cleaning and that there was no residue. As I recall, the alcohol was sufficiently diluted to not worry about any potential damage to the vinyl.
Decades ago I was discussing this topic with an audiophile record store owner near Ohio State. He had a chemist friend who came up with the following formula: 1 gal of distilled water 90 ml of isopropyl alcohol 1 tsp of Alconox (a surfactant frequently used for cleaning labware; Photoflo should also work)
If you use Alconox, slowly add water to it and stir to get it to dissolve without clumps.
He claimed that the chemists tested the records after cleaning and that there was no residue. As I recall, the alcohol was sufficiently diluted to not worry about any potential damage to the vinyl.
I have tried a couple of the MOFI fluids and they were fine. I have never heard of Revolv, so I had to look it up. Never used the Okki Nokki fluid either.
Anybody have experience with the Okki Nokki record cleaning fluid? How about Mobile Fidelity or the Revolv that I mentioned? Sometimes I think they are all about the same. Hard to do a comparison because, one the LP is clean, well, uh, it is clean.
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