Best Record Cleaning Fluid

RECORD TIME Cleaning Fluid for LPs/45s/78s from Musical Surroundings has been my goto. Cuts thru the toughest grim & leaves no residue.

Virgin vinyl is the primary reason Japanese LPs are so quiet.  I do not own more than a few MFSL pressings.  Originals often sound superior despite their higher record noise.  I'll take a V.S.O.P. reissue any day over an MFSL from the 80s. 

Oh, I forgot to mention It was noted by several materials science people that polyimides would make a much better record than PVC but would require a different process to manufacture. So If MFSL really wanted to knock it out of the ball park they could create the process and make Polyimide records. Then they could charge $1000 for a record:)

Here is the best dissertation I could find on the subject in layperson's terms.   http://pspatialaudio.com/pvc.htm 
As Regan said, "Facts are funny things." MFSL is a marketing firm. I have purchased their stuff since the early 80's. I have the completes Beatles set and the complete Stones Set as well as several UHQ discs like Crime of the century. Their game was to try and use virgin vinyl and better pressing plants so they could lower the gain so everybody's cartridge had an easy time tracking, and boost the bass which a lot of us complained about. Unfortunately, the lower gain created records that got unacceptably noisy if treated anything but absolutely perfect. Today's MFSL when compared to Analog Productions and a lot of the old European classical stuff is second rate. It is better than routine stuff for sure but it is not the last word and I certainly do not plan on buying any of the new UHQ records for that kind of money especially when I can get most of the stuff the market in high def digital down loads. However their PVC is compounded makes no difference. The very small quantity of carbon black added to PVC 0.2% makes absolutely no difference in the quality of the sound so using a substitute probably means nothing. As long as virgin vinyl is used the quality of the pressing is determined more by technique and cleanliness.  By the way as you can read in the link above most of the stuff compounded into the vinyl has nothing to do with sound quality but rather to prevent problems that occur with the process. 

That's the famous JVC vinyl that MFSL used early on. Now they have a somewhat different composition with their latest formula. It'll cost you.

I have several MSFLs that are similar to many of my Japanese LPs where they look black/dark but when held up to a light, are almost transparent with an amber coloration.

@bdp24 

You're wastin' you're time.

Liz, baby, to not wash a used LP is like to deep kiss a stranger: you don’t know where that mouth/LP has been ;-) . The Record Doctor RCM can be had for only $199.

WoW!

I hardly ever vacuum clean my records....such a pia.....  I use a Hunt record brush which takes off the dust and am good to go. 

Ok Cleeds. How do you know that? Just because Steve Hoffman say it does not mean it is true. Trust me on this one. Nobody at MFSL is a materials scientist. They are way more interested in marketing. With the original releases they cut the gain so nobody would miss track and boosted the bass which made things sound more dynamic if odd. The materials scientists all say we would be better off using a polyimide and toss the PVC.  I have been up and down the internet getting a better picture of the chemistry as I had always assumed that there was nothing but carbon black and PVC in record vinyl as that is how it was always presented to me and I have been in a pressing plant and watched the process. Assumptions are the mother of all fuck ups and I got caught in it. I have always said making mistakes is the best way to learn. I'm learning now.
Most SuperVinyls are just virgin vinyl that has no recycle in it perhaps using a plant that is more fastidious about its process. After they trim the record edges the excess and all the contaminants it has been exposed to get thrown back into the pot. Most records are 20-30% recycled vinyl. The plants are usually a mess. Just cleaning up helps. The Japanese have proven that 
There is nothing wrong with carbon black in the very small amount used something like 0.05%. It is true if the percentage gets too high the record will develop a hiss. But carbon black has other specific advantages. It makes the vinyl tougher and more slippery according to what I have read. I have EMI and Decca records that are dead silent and they say nothing about SuperVinyl on them. However there are probably tweeks that could improve PVC. On the other other hand if you really wanted to improve records you would bite the bullet and accept the higher cost of a polyimide which according to several sources would make a significantly better record. ljgerens probably knows more about this than I do. 

Whoops! I forgot to add the link in my last comment. Here it is
https://www.yoursoundmatters.com/is-it-safe-to-clean-vinyl-records-with-alcohol/
I just ordered a bottle of Triton X ,  99% isopropyl alcohol and benzalkonium chloride. I am going to experiment with a 10% alcohol solution and an undetermined  quantity of Triton X and benzalkonium chloride. I'll probably start with 0.5% Triton and 0.1% benzalkonium chloride. The Triton is a cationic detergent and surfactant. The benzalkonium chloride kills fungus and is supposed to lubricate the groove. The general consensus is that up to 10% alcohol is perfectly safe. One article related that over 60% is certainly dangerous. My usual mix was 25%.  

mijostyn

Obviously I was wrong ... Carbon Black is obviously added to all black records and I have read that it contains lead which acts as a stabilizer ...

You really need to start relying on facts rather than speculation, because this claim is also completely mistaken. MFSL's "SuperVinyl" uses a carbonless die, for example, and it's likely MFSL is not the only one doing this.

Here is an interesting and non committed article I found. I love the bit about isopropyl alcohol evaporating too fast. That is why we use it in solution with distilled water. You can adjust the vapor pressure by adjusting the concentration of the alcohol. For cleaning car windows I use 75% isopropyl in distilled water. It cleans great and dries fast. For records I use 25% isopropyl in distilled water. It dries a bit slower. There is no residue in medical grade alcohol and there should not be any in distilled water. I filled a sparkling clean wine glass with the 25% mixture and let it evaporate. The glass was just as clean afterwards so there is no visible residue. 

I just opened a conversation with ThermoFisher Scientific. They are a materials science firm. Perhaps they can let us know how record PVC is formulated.

Thanx for the explanation ljergens. Obviously I was wrong. I believe during the stamping process PVC temperatures reach 300 F. Carbon Black is obviously added to all black records and I have read that it contains lead which acts as a stabilizer.Medical PVC has the phthalate DEHP in it which has been studies intensively for side effects in animals. I believe phthalates are the most common plasticizers but I can not find any mention of them being added to PVC for records. The PVC for records comes in bags of pellets that are premixed with carbon black and whatever else is in there. I am trying to find out who supplies the pellets to firm up the list of compounds added to the PVC and their concentrations. The next question is will Isopropyl alcohol damage records. I believe this is a myth. I have an old record sitting in a tub of 91% isopropyl alcohol now. It has been in it for 3 days.  
Very creative Terry9. At least you know what is in there unlike all the audiophile stuff. 

back in the 1990s myles astor did a survey of rcf's for sounds like magazine. he examined the chemistry behind the formulations and conducted listening tests. the top fluid was vpi, followed by nitty gritty purifier 2.
you can't go wrong with any of the name fluids like nitty gritty, vpi, mofi, disc doctor etc.

Several people have written about the importance of rinsing, if you use a surfactant. I agree.

I use a commercial US cleaner. It's better and cheaper than many audiophile alternatives. I also use lab grade surfactant for a whole bunch of reasons, like it actually is what the documentation says it is.

VersaClean from Fisher Scientific, especially formulated for plastics.

Yes if the copper chloride is perfectly dry it is a yellow-brown color but in the presence of moisture it easily forms the dihydrate which is a green color. This is what you typically see due to moisture in the atmosphere. Copper chloride is always hydrated to some extent on exposure to atmosphere and forms green crystals.

Unstabilized PVC undergoes dehydrohalogenation very readily on exposure to UV or heat. The dehydrohalogenation process releases HCl. I studied this extensively using Photoelectron Spectroscopy as I stated before. The added stabilizers slow down the process but do not completely eliminate it.

The dehydrohalogenation processs takes place at the surface initially (the upper 5 to 10 nanometers) and slowly works its way into the bulk. This initial process which occurs within minutes of UV exposure can only be detected with a surface analysis technique like Photoelectron Spectroscopy or Static Secondary Ion Mass Spectrometry. 

As far as heat, the surface dehydrohalogenation begins to occur at temperatures of 70 to 90 degrees C (160 to 190 F).

The combination of UV and elevated temperatures (greater than 100 degrees F) speeds up the process significantly.

Right on cleeds. There is a method to handling records. As cleeds relates do not touch the playing surface. ljgerens you are right in regards to oils. They are very fugitive however if you wash your hands before handling the records the transfer of skin oils to the record is minimal if you are handling the record correctly. But if you like wearing clean room gloves and get them cheap why not. I have never worn clean room gloves and you will never find a finger print on any of my records. 
CuCL2 is brown. It absorbs moisture to form the dihydrate which is light blue. To form Malachite or Brochantite, both green, copper is fully oxidized then on exposure to atmospheric contaminants forms these compounds also termed patina.  Chlorine is not involved. The only references I can find in regard to PVC releasing HCL relate this to the PVC being burned like in a house fire. 

I have used the VPI 16.5 for 37 years now.   Back in the 90s I used Torumat fluid with very good results, from Brooks Berdan, where I purchased my analog front end and cleaning machine.  Then an acquaintance Brian made a formula which included drinking alcohol, ethanol.  It was superb.  He passed and since about 2005, I've used Record Doctor.  Sometimes, cleaning the grooves results in a noisier LP due to uncovering gunk which has resulted in damaged grooves.  Overall, I like the Record Doctor using two additional rinses using either RO or distilled water.  

I have 7,000 78s and Record Doctor is recommended for them.  It apparently does not use any type of alcohol.  

I like the Kirmuss idea but don't trust the guy.  MF said it can take 30 minutes per disc to make it absolutely pristine (including multiple passes through the machine and fungus/etc. hand brush removal).

It is not overkill. Even if you handle the edges, oils from your fingers migrate onto the outer edge of the playing surface of the LP. I always had boxes of clean room gloves in my lab so they were readily available. 

ljgerens

... I used clean room gloves to handle my LPs. The worst thing to try to remove from an LP surface are the proteins, amino acids, lipids and salts from your skin contact.

That seems rather like overkill. It's possible to handle an LP without ever touching the playing surface by simply touching only the LP edge and the label.

... the best cleaning method that I found was deionized/distilled water and an ultrasonic bath.

Same here.

I've been using L'Art Du Son for a while now. I'm on my 2nd bottle and a bottle lasts a while as it's concentrate you mix with distilled water. Before that I mostly used DIY alcohol based solutions. On my Okki Nokki, I have to spin 3 revolutions with now to vacuum when I only used 2 for DIY solution. The other issue I've noticed with L'Art Du Son is that the velvet pads on the arm don't seem to dry off as fast. With alcohol based solutions, the pads were dry after each record. With L'Art Du Son there seems to be a cumulative effect. If I clean about 5 records, the pads stay wet during the vacuuming process. Before that I don't really have a problem. What happens is the wet pads just push the fluid over the surface of the record instead of being sucked into the tube. It's not a deal breaker for me, but, it is an annoyance that I've come to accept.

I no longer play LPs, but when I did I used clean room gloves to handle my LPs. The worst thing to try to remove from an LP surface are the 
proteins, amino acids, lipids and salts from your skin contact. If you handle your LPs carefully with no skin contact than the best cleaning method that I found was deionized/distilled water and an ultrasonic bath. If your LPs  have some fingerprints, Isopropyl alcohol can be used to clean them first followed by an ultrasonic bath in deionized/distilled water. 

As someone said earlier, all cleaning agents used on LPs leave a residue. It may not be visible to the naked eye but it is there. You want to try to minimize that residue. 

I mention deionized/distilled water as I found it to leave less residue than plain distilled water. For most people plain distilled water is fine.

barbapapa, are you kidding me? Look how PVC is made. If everyone here was so concerned about the environment we would all stop buying vinyl immediately and toss our turntables in the garbage. I'm more worried about what we will make our records out of once all the oil is gone:( The best way to keep your records clean is not to let them get dirty. I started collecting records when I was 13. I did not have my act together in terms of record care until I was 17 when I made a hinging dust cover for my TD 124. At about the same time I replaced the ADC Pritchard tonearm the table came with with an SME. I modified the ADC Pritchard by mounting an artist's brush head in the head shell.The idea came as a result of using a Stanton cartridge with the brush up front. Talking about skating force! It worked great except boy did it make static electricity. I got shocked every time I changed a record. So I wrapped the brush with fine copper wire almost down to the end and connected it to the green head shell wire which was connected to ground. I have been using a grounded record brush ever since. The older records had to be cleaned but remain noisy. All the later records have never been cleaned and are all as good as the day I bought them (except for the rare accident.) 
If you have dirty records I think the best way to clean them is an ultrasonic cleaner with distilled water. Unfortunately, a lot of pollutants inside a house are non polar molecules from cooking. Water as a polar solvent has a hard time dissolving these molecules without the help of Ultrasound so in every other type of cleaning machine you need something in the water that will dissolve them. I like isopropyl alcohol.
It is a relatively weak solvent but it evaporates quickly and leaves absolutely no residue. With a little agitation like in a Spin Clean it works fine. If people want to spend their money on all that other magic stuff that is their prerogative. Me? The only time my records are exposed to the environment is the 30 seconds it takes to go the three feet from where the record is removed from it's rice paper sleeve to the turntable, needle and brush drop, Dust cover down. Then of course back again to the sleeve.  https://www.sleevecityusa.com/Antistatic-Record-Cleaning-Arm-p/tac-01.htm

mijostyn - The copper turning green is due to oxidation. 

Copper oxide is not green. The copper +1 oxide (Cu2O) is red and the copper +2 oxide (CuO) is black. Copper turning green is due to the formation of copper chloride. If it turns a blue or aqua color it is due to the formation of copper sulfate.

Yes all PVC has stabilizers to minimize degradation, even the PVC in LPs. They are not always 100% effective but do slow down the  degradation process. 

I do not think you have to be too concerned with degradation of PVC in LPs unless you leave them siting out in sunlight for days or heat them to high temperatures. Most LPs are a copolymer of PVC and PVA and with the added stabilizers and carbon black as a filler, the degradation of PVC is minimized.

And it is a natural product who respects the environment.

I used several.
L’art du Son
Keith Monks
walker 4 steps active Enzymes
AIVS (3 steps and n.6).
I am back to l’Art du Son now with 2 minutes bathing.
if the record is is not over dirty it is good enough for very serious cleaning. If very dirty you can do it twice.
It smells good and sounds very good transparent and, more importantly, balanced without any part of the spectrums more prominent than another.
I also have KLAudio.

ljgerens, thank you for the explanation.The copper turning green is due to oxidation. PVC like siding which is exposed continuously to high temps and UV light has stabilizers in it. The PVC used in records is exposed to high heat once for only a short period of time and gets hardly any UV exposure because it spends the vast majority of its time in its jacket. The lead in the carbon black acts as a stabilizer but other than that I can find no evidence anywhere that PVC used for the manufacture of records has anything in it but carbon black. I would love to see evidence to the contrary. 

Many years ago people observed their Monster Speaker Cable turning green through the clear PVC jacket. This was due to dehydrohalogenation of the PVC jacket producing HCl which reacted with the copper conductor forming copper chloride

I was always told that the crusty green powder was caused by the oxidation of the copper in the wire.  This was way before the days of oxygen free copper, (in audio cables anyway).

ljgerens

Many years ago people observed their Monster Speaker Cable turning green through the clear PVC jacket. This was due to dehydrohalogenation of the PVC jacket producing HCl which reacted with the copper conductor forming copper chloride.

W-o-w! I never knew that! I used the original Monster Cable speaker cable in a biamplified Infinity 2.5 speaker system back in the very early '80s, so I had a lot of the stuff. It was a great sounding system but that is exactly what happened to the cable - I'd never seen anything like it before or since. The green color actually creeped me out a little and I threw the cable in the garbage.

mijostyn - The bit about heated PVC making HCL is the funniest part.

The kinetics and mechanism of dehydrohalogenation of PVC is well documented in the scientific literature. I had the opportunity to study the surface chemistry of UV induced dehydrohalogenation of PVC many years ago using photoelectron spectroscopy. The dehydrohalogenation process can be induced thermally or via UV exposure and does produce HCl. That is one reason stabilizers are used in PVC.

Many years ago people observed their Monster Speaker Cable turning green through the clear PVC jacket. This was due to dehydrohalogenation of the PVC jacket producing HCl which reacted with the copper conductor forming copper chloride.

On my VPI 16.5 of 17 years I've settled on MoFi Super Record Wash with the MoFi brush. On used or soiled records I start with MoFi Super Deep Cleaner. The vinyl sparkles and the sound is enhanced. I had used Disc Doctor's Miracle Record Cleaner with a water rinse for years, though never noticed a Heightening of the sonics. Before that a home brew of water, alcohol and Photo-Flo, which I determined was not as good.

I have been buying records since 1970, and as was typical, used a Discwasher.  In the early 1980s, I bought a used VPI, and converted it to the 16.5.  Mostly, I have used distilled water with about 20% isopropanol, and a couple of drops of Kodak Photo-Flo, a mild detergent used when processing film.  I spreads out well on the records, and there is occasionally enough vacuum to cause some bubbles as the fluid is sucked off by the (be still, my heart) velvet lips.  I have never noted any residue.  Then (not to open up another can of worms), I use LAST on each side.  Since it bonds to the vinyl irreversibly, it sometimes can pick up dust that the machine didn't get the first time.  Then, I can clean it again...I am not a fan of the MOFI fluids, if only because they don't really wet the record, seemingly just blobbing above the grooves due to its very high surface tension.  
     There is absolutely no question that the ultrasonic cleaners work better (just ask your dentist), but they do come with a pretty steep toll if you want it automated;  If you don't, you can probably buy a large enough one on ebay, and fabricate something to  hold the records solidly while they spin in the water bath.  Then, they have to dry, so the money you save is more than taken up in the time it takes to clean them.

I use Record Doctor cleaning fluid.  You can buy the concentrated variety and mix it with distilled water.  This is one of the few cleaning fluids that doesn’t bead on the record surface

All records are dirty. Even brand new. Have you ever toured a pressing plant, or seen videos of one? Records are not produced in laboratory style clean room, but more like a factory situation. So clean all records new or used for best results. Also, do not put records back into the sleeves they come in, especially if they are just plain paper sleeves. These shed and scratch every time the LP is removed or replaced.For off the shelf cleaners I have tried:Nitty Gritty, VPI, Last, Super Cleaner, Premier, and a few others.
All did at least a good job, but Torumat was my favorite, until I found Audio Intelligence. Now I use an Ultra Sonic cleaning machine (sort of home made, not a $4k one). With only distilled water it does great, but with distilled water and the Audio Disc cleaner it does an even better job. And for the best I have heard, I use the Audio Intelligence 3 step mentioned above after the ultra sonic clean.YMMV, but this is my 2 cents.Good listening,

I like the Audio Intelligent #6. 
Spreads great. LP ‘s are dead silent after cleaning. 
I use the MOFI brush with Record Doctor rcm. 
Follow the directions for best results. 

Voiceofvinyl, there have been many approaches to making records mostly adjusting gain, various compression schemes and adjusting the weight of the puck. Wickipedia has a long article on this and it does talk about all of RCA's meanderings. Columbia was another company that tried various approaches in competition with RCA. I have several JVC Super Vinyl records, excuse me they are JVC Direct Discs, the three Lee Ritenour records, Gentle Thoughts, Sugar Loaf Express and Friendship.
They are great records. I terms of quality they used a thicker puck and the Japanese are a lot more fastidious about their pressing technique and cleanliness so their pressings are very quiet. You will notice that all the highest quality discs are done on black plastic. The carbon black does have lead in it and if you have ever handled raw lead it is slippery and feels sort of greasy. Other colored discs are noisier. My own experience backs this up. Having said all this the absolute quietest discs I have are British! Older EMIs , Decca and Mercury pressings are just wonderful. Only Analog Productions comes close to that level of quality. I suspect it is due to things like cleanliness, less or no recycled vinyl and changing the stampers more frequently. 

I am still using a Nitty Gritty cleaning machine that I have owned for many years with the cleaning solution from Nitty Gritty. It seems to do the job pretty well I think. I haven't had any reason to upgrade this to a different machine or use a different cleaning solution. If anyone out there uses a Nitty Gritty machine but knows of a better cleaning solution to use with it then I would be interested to know about it.

Indeed, some labels tout their own unique formulation, so I'm inclined to agree with you.

Yes. Remember “Quiex II”, “Quiex SV” and JVC’s Super Vinyl among others? They play very quietly. It takes more than minimizing re-grind to get records to play black quiet.

I would mention that the Dynaflex pvc was (allegedly) formulated to play quietly, and generally they do, but my source is unreliable. To my knowledge RCA has never gone public with the use of an additive for those pressings.

As far as patents including claims or embodiments that never get implemented....it’s smart (defensive) Intellectual Property strategy- claim as much land around your preferred embodiment as you can afford to defend.

Cleeds, I am saying this independently of my other posts so that when you report me to the moderator he doesn't erase all the really important self serving stuff I have typed about elsewhere. Is your stylus aimed in the right direction? 20 degrees is pitiful. I doubt it would work at that angle. You might try some lube. 

Very few records are made of 100% virgin vinyl. The industry standard is 70% virgin and 30% recycled. The recycled is coming from the trim pieces created during the pressing process. A small amount of PVC is extruded beyond the 12 inch circumference of the record. This is trimmed off and recycled. Problem is that it is exposed to possible contamination which might make the next record noisier. There are several videos that show this process. The so called virgin vinyl records have none of this remix in them. But still, this is a complicated process which can be contaminated at many levels. It is very difficult to maintain an absolutely clean process and remain commercially viable. 
In regards to additives I would be happy to see absolute proof that anybody is adding anything to the PVC other than colorant. Additives would only increase the cost of the vinyl and so far have only created inferior product as far as I can tell. I would be willing to bet that all the pressing plants are getting their PVC from one or two sources that make pellets specifically for the purpose of pressing records. Unique formulations? My back side. These people have a hard enough time keeping the vinyl clean and noise free. PVC needs no help doing its job otherwise. All those patents have been ignored by the industry. Call up a pressing plant and ask them where they get their PVC pellets from then call that company and ask if they add anything to the PVC other than colorant. Provide us with the companies and their phone numbers so we can verify the information. Prove me wrong. Make me learn something. I hate hidden secrets and all this mystery. 

voiceofvinyl

... if you are doing a patent field search to find the ingredients in a vinyl resin formulation you will not get an accurate understanding of what’s actually being used by a processor. A lot of additives, like some of the one’s used to make the surface of the vinyl play quietly, are trade secrets and thus not disclosed.

That makes sense to me. But there are some people who are convinced that every fact known to man can be found within an hour or so using Google and the Internet.

I will just disagree that all vinyl resin pellets used to make the bisquit are 100% virgin vinyl.

Indeed, some labels tout their own unique formulation, so I'm inclined to agree with you.

As such I will minimize my use of alcohol on the records I truly care about. 

I stopped using any of the magic cleaners, potions, and alcohol-based solutions when I went to US cleaning. I've needed nothing but distilled water since. I'm not sure why some people think they need brake cleaner to clean an LP - yet at the same time, others seem to think a stylus will gouge all of the dirt from the groove.