But for me, without timbre music reproduction can be compared to food which lacks flavour or a modern movie with washed out colours. Occasionally interesting, but rarely engaging.
So my question is, what are your loudspeaker candidates if you are looking for a 'Technicolor' sound?
I know many use tube amps solely for this aim, but perhaps they are a subject deserving an entirely separate discussion.
This is a ridiculous post. There is no such thing as a speaker that is good at reproducing timbre.
Sure there is.
All sorts of speakers can be better or worse at reproducing accurate, or realistic instrumental timbre. If you play a good recording (in this sense meant to maintain the natural sound of the instrument) then there are all sorts of distortions and frequency deviations by which a speaker can screw up the timbre. That’s obvious isn’t it? Regardless of the fact other components can screw up the sound as well, that’s true of speakers.
Yes there are "rich" sounding speakers but that is not necessarily going to reproduce all instruments naturally.
Yup. I think everyone acknowledges that.
But then even the most accurate speaker isn’t going to reproduce all instruments naturally, because there is so much variation in recording quality and styles. So you don’t win that way either, if you listen to a broad range of recordings as most people do.
So this problem can reasonably motivate someone to look for a speaker that produces a certain characteristic one likes with much of what one listens to.
For instance, one of the aspects of reproduced sound through most systems is, I find, a diminution of body and presence of voices and instruments. So that might be an aspect of sound I want to "get back" with the speaker I choose, within the limitations of budget, size room constraints, etc. (If you have the money and room size, well then no doubt the type of limitations I’m talking about can be transcended, but many of us are dealing with compromises).
To use the example I’ve given of the Devore speakers: They manage, to my ears, to reproduce sound with a generally fuller sense of body than the other speakers I’ve heard in that price range/size. It sounds "more real and natural" in that respect to me. I don’t know for sure that it’s a coloration or simply an aspect of sound reproduction better produced by the design, but even if it’s an added coloration, it’s one that enhances a broad spectrum of recordings to a more believable satisfying presentation than some other well regarded speakers I’ve heard. (This is of course just my own perception and taste, not some objective claim that Devore speakers are "better" - I'm just bringing them in as an example).
Would such a coloration actually impede in some other areas or recordings, making for instance some elements timbrally "too rich?" Sure, most likely. But that’s a trade off, just like a really accurate system will often have you experiencing the trade off of thin recordings giving you unnatural, synthetic sounding instruments and voices.
But in any case, there is nothing wrong at all with discussing the contribution of one type of component - speakers - and *their particular effect in the chain* even if as we all know it’s one part of the chain.
@prof "I'm pretty nuts about correct, organic sounding timbre so that's always been job one for any speaker I have owned. The problem has been for me that instrumental timbre often doesn't sound organic, but more glazed and electronic/plastic through most speaker systems. I had usually found the best I could do was pick a speaker (and with judicious amp choice) that had traits consonant with what I like about real life sounds. A number of speakers I've owned and ones I've liked have had a somewhat "woody" character or timbral tone because that at least imparted an organic quality to sounds that helped many things sound more "real" to me - from acoustic guitars, string instruments, even the "woodiness" of the reed in a saxophone. Or drum sticks, and even to some degree voices. (I'm not talking about some ridiculous level of woody coloration, but more the sense that the sound is made of organic material, vs plastic, steel, and electrons).
The Devores are one of those speakers that to my ears has a canny bit of coloration that is very consonant with how real sounds impress me, so in that sense they often sound more "natural" to me than other strictly more neutral (or other non-neutral) speakers.
The Joseph speakers are more like the Hales speakers I have owned (and still own), where I get the sense of much reduced distortion/coloration revealing timbral qualities. So I find the sound a bit more varied from such speakers. But then, they also sometimes miss some of the particularly papery, organic sense of touch from the Devores, and some of the realistic fullness and weight. So....it's always compromises."
Yes this woody" character or timbral tone that at least imparts an organic quality to the sound is also my starting point for choosing a loudspeaker (or headphones) and has been for years. That "glazed and electronic/plastic" sound emanating from far too many speakers bores me quickly.
However, unlike your good self I have been unable to progress beyond this point, instead promising myself to perhaps dabble with tubes one day when the kids are older. Especially after reading some of the wonderful articles by the late Harvey "Gizmo" Rosenberg.
After owning various Tannoy loudspeakers, including 15 inch DCs I get the impression that the DeVore speakers might share some of the DNA with the classic Tannoys. More of the same perhaps slightly more refined. It's great to know that others are also looking further in this particular direction.
Thanks again for your pointers and putting into words what, for me at least, still remains largely uncharted territory.
Yes I think we get what each other is talking about.
I haven’t spent a lot of time with much of the Tannoy line, with the exception of the Tannoy Dimension TD10, which my pal had for a while.They definitely had the "warm woody" thing going for timbre, string sections sound especially warm and gorgeous. (The big Tannoy Churchill speakers I heard long ago also struck me the same way IIRC).
The problem with such a coloration for me is not going too far. I’ve had a few speakers that had that woody, warm timbre that made me instantly like them - I’m thinking at the moment of the long forgotten Audio Physic Libras, and a couple Meadowlark Audio speakers I had. The issue I had was over the long haul it was just a little too much coloration, making the sound a bit too predictable, even if comfy.
The Thiel speakers I own now (I had the 3.7s and now have the 2.7s) are more neutral in that regard, definitely doing organic timbres like wood and voices really well, but not obviously overlaying everything with that flavor. So they feel like a more satisfying speaker for a longer haul to me.
It’s hard for me to know if the Devores would prove to be more like the previous speakers I mentioned and grow tiring, or not. My impressions from auditioning the Devores is that they strike a really nice balance between the richness I like in the midrange/upper bass while sounding quite neutral and open beyond that.
But...there are so many speakers out there!
(The most realistic piano sound I can remember hearing was through the Kef Blades at an audio show. Blew me away!)
@prof some very well thought out posts previous. While I recommend Tannoy frequently to folks with this kind of question, I myself am one of those who had a pair for numerous years but then moved on. Basically for the reasons you cited earlier, you start to notice a warm colouration in all pieces of music that is being imposed by the speaker. It does sound lovely with lotta music though. while I like the sound of the Devore it strikes me as one of those types of speakers. I could be wrong, I haven't spent a ton of time in front of them.
“There is no such thing as a speaker that is good at reproducing timbre”
This comment is a bit misleading. A speaker is nothing more than a combination of assembled parts. The parts themselves are good or less good at delivering accurate or true timbre. Capacitors vary greatly in this ability. Ditto for resistors and inductors. Wire also plays a role in timbre. What about those drivers, magnets, the cabinet design etc.... Now bringing all of these parts together is truly both an art and science when trying to deliver pure timbre. Timbre is found right down to the individual part in addition to how they all interact together.
That being said we still listen to systems.....not speakers. Timbre will, in the end, be a result of the complete system including the room and speaker placement.
Differences between caps you can measure? Sure, if the capacitors are of different values. But what if they are the same value and the same tolerance but sound different? What then?
Pop quiz: are (non polarized) capacitors directional? You know, since the wire is directional.
Wow! You completely sidestepped the whole issue of why some caps that measure the same sound different. Of course you would since it shoots down your entire raison d’etre. Never mind. Besides the caps I’m taking about are *symmetrical*. I have no idea what you’re talking about. Furthermore, it must have something to do with wire directionality since all wire is directional. Hel-loo!
Are you all sure this isn't a troll? I mean, the question, as posed, is pretty much the same as asking "Best Loudspeakers for Good Sound." Not sure why you all are wasting time answering.
All wire is directional. You’re in denial as usual. Not only that you still don’t even know what directionally is. Have you considered going back and getting your GED?
audiotroy writes:So the reason why timbre is so difficult is that all systems are colored
and true accuracy accross all freqencies is very hard to achieve.
True enough as stated, but I submit that the speaker/room interaction and the resulting radiating patterns have a profound influence on timbre. It also has a profound influence when speakers have radiating diaphragms that approximate the instruments they are reproducing. In my experience, the X.7i series Magnepans with their large dipolar radiating surfaces reproduce piano better for less money than just about any other speaker I've heard, including earlier Maggies. I grew up in a live music environment; my mom was church organist and pianist for 20+ years; so was my sister. Her son competed in the Tchaikovsky piano competition. I used to hear him practice extensively on their family's grand piano. In 1991-3 I worked part time at a mega piano store that carried Steinway, Boesendorfer, Schimmel, Seiler, Falcone, and Mason & Hamlin concert grands. They also were skilled piano restorers, and I heard plenty of 100 to 180 yr. old restored grand pianos.
A well-recorded grand piano played through my Magnepan 1.7s astounds me every time. A part of it is the radiating surface size, but so is the radiating pattern and how the audio output energizes the room as a piano would. If you disagree, fine. YMMV.
Lots of things aren’t huge radiating surfaces. Flutes. Horns. Human voices. I certainly think dipole speakers have advantages you can’t get any other way, but they have disadvantages unlike any other speaker too.
Well, the funny thing about my 1.7s is how well it reproduces the very things you cite--flutes, horns, and voices. I first noticed it when--soon after installing my 1.7s, I played the LP version of Holly Cole’s "Temptation" album. The song, "The Briar and the Rose," is accompanied by the Canadian Brass. The rendition of this brass ensemble was stunning, the best I’ve ever heard in my house, and only (maybe) bettered by a demo I heard of the Wilson Alexandrias. The Magnepans are more than just dipoles. They are boxless panel speakers. They are also line sources, and their radiating patterns have nulls to the sides, keeping the rooms side walls largely out of the equation (true also of other dipoles). There are several things about the Magnepan x.7 series that supersede all the dogma about previous maggies--grainy, lack of low level detail, hard to drive, etc. The first in the current series, the 1.7 wound up being the proof of concept of the new generation, and soon Magnepan offered the .7, 3.7, and 20.7, and a few years later, the very ambitious 30.7. Whatever the new Maggies do for piano reproduction (which is hard to ignore), it does not affect their ability to provide stunning reproductions of a wide selection of instruments and voices. I have been listening to mine almost daily for nearly 5 years.
I'm glad you both brought up the issue of that "warm woody" sound. What prof writes about DeVores I found also applies to many of the larger Tannoys (even the slim floor standing Revolution 3s share this quality. When you first hear it you immediately think it must be wrong, too much mid bass, too warm, can't be right, and yet...it sounds so lovely, so real that convinces you that most other speakers must be wrong.
I have to agree that the line 'you start to notice a warm colouration in all pieces of music that is being imposed by the speaker.' also applies to my experience. It's just that it's so emotionally satisfying, especially with some classic EMI 1950s and 60s recordings where it feels like everything has aligned and this is as close to perfect as you're gonna get!).
In my experience this is the best I have heard at home and almost the best anywhere else. However things might change as I'm hoping to get to the Audio Show 2018 next month at Leamington Spa. It will my first in about a decade and the good news is that Vivid Audio and Audio Note UK will be there.
If we get to hear some exotic US brands at the show, well that would be the 'living end'. Yes, I know, I have read too many Stan Lee comics.
It's just that it's [playback through the larger Tannoys] so emotionally satisfying, especially with some
classic EMI 1950s and 60s recordings where it feels like everything has
aligned and this is as close to perfect as you're gonna get!).
An astute observation. Perhaps a factor in this sonic chemistry is that the EMI recordings were likely monitored and mixed on large Tannoys, such that the recordings and the playback speakers are figuratively speaking the same "language."
I heard the AN-E's and O/93's the same day, albeit in different environments. In terms of sheer purity of timbre, I'd definitely give it to the Audio Notes.
Klipschorns, with updated crossovers and other tweaks, such as horn damping and additional cabinet bracing ( and of course, 2 excellent and similar corners ), are very hard to beat, and, especially at the prices they are going for. The simple fact they have been selling longer than anything else, does say something. Admittedly, I am partial, and feel justified having my own opinion on the subject. ( BTW, I own modified Lascalas, as they are not slouches in any area ). Enjoy ! MrD.
I have as new old wood boxes filled with under-felt AKAI SWT1, popped with a good xover and some skytronics 10's, some good mid's and silk tops. AR8 with QST/QSC drivers, the outer cm is not ribbed so it delivers some mids and the silk tops balances the setup well.Also have JBL control 1's which are not power hungry like my boston A23's.. prefer the C1's, they rock for such small speakers.One can never end when it comes to speakers...all i can say is 3 systems running from the Rotel rdd980 and rcd980 at the same time fills the home, garden and the neighbors...Law enforcement + Police often pop in for a frostie or some coffee!
@colin44ct357 yes the JBL C1s are very lively and amazing for the size and money. Not a final speaker (if there is such a thing!) but great fun.
They use some in the community centre and you think, is all that sound really coming from them? Did sound slightly sharp but that might have been the mic setup etc.
Talking of final speakers has anyone heard any of the Linkwitz speakers? If anyone could get accurate timbre out if a design, I guess Siegfried Linkwitz might.
So many good points in this discussion. I can’t resist tossing in: for sheer melodiousness, a system I had years ago, now often available used at good prices, was Vandersteen 3A Sigs with 2wq subwoofers. Whether “rich” or “accurate” or both I don’t know, but what I do know is that that sweet sound is still coursing through my veins years and systems later. I replaced them only for reasons of limited power handling. Cheers to all. Jim Heckman
Having experimented with various speakers that I like. When it comes to midrange richness, some models of ProAc Speakers do the job. I have the Response Five model. There also seems to be richness in upper areas of the bass range.
Dave or Tory (or both) This post is not ridiculous, cd318 is expressing what many of us have experienced. Most speakers sound artificial regardless of what is fed to them. In my experience some speakers are capable of sounding like a human voice or acoustic instrument, some simply dont have that potential regardless of source, signal or eq.
Ribbons and planars are very good, but take some getting used to, because of the lack of distortion that cone drivers have.
They definitely sound less "loud", which I imagine comes from the improved transparency and reduced distortions. Now that I am used to them, cones drivers sound very coloured in sound.
They do have a more realistic warmth, if the recording is "warm" sounding.
ProAcs are getting a few mentions. I've only heard the Future One's many years ago but they did sound good to me on the end of some Marantz gear. It was at a London show and Ken Ishiwata was there.
The Future One's were slightly pyramid shaped floorstanders with an open back behind the midrange unit!
Some of the people with me thought they sounded fabulous, the best in show. I was in such a hurry to hear everything else that I didn't stay too long to listen to this strange looking expensive speaker from this unknown brand!!
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