Best digital format (non streaming)

You are completely right (and wrong) by saying 'cart before the horse'. 40 years ago when I got into 'music', we already found ourselves 'putting the cart before the horse'. We (handful of friends) found ourselves with a decent stack of CLASSIC music (16-20 year olds !!!). Why? Because back then, rock/pop recordings were JUNK, and we soon found that using those to evaluate our systems was USELESS. And yes, back then and to large extend now again, I (engineer) like hardware part game (constantly evolving, comparing, improving) at LEAST as intriguing as the RESULT (listening to a song or a piece). 

I find this behavior not really that unusual; it is almost the standard for example in my other (performance cars) hobby, where everyone is constantly tinkering with the car to improve the performance, yet no one really spends a lot of time to HARVEST the improved performance (for example spending hours per week on the racetrack). 

But yes, there is NO question that I (and those like me) have the cart before the horse !!! 

With that said: can you recommend some really (technically) good 5.1 SACD classical recordings?

 

@kraftwerkturbo 

 

I listen exclusively to Classical and would be willing to help you, but aren't you putting the cart before the horse?  For me the music is the thing and gear is meant to reproduce it.  I wouldn't however, change my listening tastes just because a certain type of genre sounds better on my system.  However, we always need new Classical listeners

Darn! The better my system gets, the more I find it difficult to listen to 'old favorites' that are just recorded horribly. And lesser and lesser recordings 'make it' into the 'play list'. Now starting to look into classical music hoping to find some 'worthy' material. And relegate the 'old favorites' to play over a bluetooth box and computer speakers :-) 

Likely, there are some (crazy expansive) specialty outlets that let you buy and download high res files? 

Yes, there are but prices and repertoire vary.  I am generally familiar with classical offerings.

And only storage media will be computer/harddrive/USB/DVD-R/SSD? 

That's my preference since it is easier to store, organize, access and play than physical discs.

Or can I buy Dark Side of the Moon or Brothersin Arms in high res on physical media?

You can.  I did.

That is what I suspect. The difference was too obvious to be explained with a bad DAC in the CD player (vs. the Modi 3). I need to read the (exhaustive) manual of the receiver and its setting to ensure comparability. 

 

Every digital format out there, whether CD, DVD, SACD, or streaming in any format CD or greater is as good as you are, you being a human being, and better than your speakers by a fair amount. Stop worrying about the format, and start worrying about the recording. There could be 10 different versions of a recording, one of them may only be on CD. It will be the best one, not because it is CD, but because it is the best mix. Same could be true on SACD.  Same could be true with a streamed version. I would suggest learning to stream locally. You can rip CDs perfectly using a computer. The computer can take multiple passes to reduce errors. You can purchase and download some SACD recordings.

@kraftwerkturbo if there is a big difference in the analog in of the receiver and digital, then you are using a processing mode of the receiver, not pure amplification. The levels are likely to be different which makes a difference in the sound.

The difference was so obvious, that I actaully start to suspecdt that the RECEIVER is treating the analog in different (maybe has some 'sound enhancing' switched on) compared to the digital in from the CD player. I will repeat the test in 2 different ways: 

a) use the CD player ANALOG in the receiver and compare to digital input

b) use CD player ANALOG and compare with Modi 3 analog (again, identical CD and ripped CD). 

"CD is best": I have a decent (for my level/aspirations) receiver with a DAC. And my CD player has also a built in DAC.

As a first 'try', I would like to compare the CD player analog into receiver vs. CD player digital out (and conversion in the receiver), using (depending on which CD player I uses) digital coax, optical or HDMI (?) to feed into the receiver. 

Is that a practical test? 

I was utterly surprised when I listened to my ripped CD played from my laptop via 25 ft USB C cable via Schiit Modi 3 analog into the receiver, vs CD player into receiver (computer sounde a LOT better). 

 

CD is best 

I have compared uncompressed FLAC to the WAV file and I can't hear the difference.

I noted down the referenced sites for hi res downloads. I will visit and check out what they have (and cost). Thanks for posting.

 

+1@ @arcticdeth. With the caveat that it’d be a cd transport and separate DAC.
My McIntosh MCT also accepts large capacity usb thumb drives. Helps me play my DSD files that don’t play natively through my Bluesound node. 

Presto Classical doesn't off DSD but has a huge selection of other HiRes downloads.  HDTT is another site and they off DSD

CDs ripped and then played from a hard drive, connected to a dac with an s/pdif converter.  IMHO it would sound better than almost all transports connected to the same dac via coax.

You can buy high resolution files from a lot of different places, I typically buy from HDtracks and Pro Studio Masters. Occasionally I also buy from Bandcamp. Between the three I can typically find what I am looking for.

As a manufacturer, the transport and DAC still sound better than any streaming device we have tested.  It is close though and getting closer.  What we found for better sound quality is the equipment.  I can modify a transport (CDP) and DAC, but we have not ventured into a streamer at this time.  Upgrading the power supply in many components really helps the sound quality from our experience.  The benefit of having a streamer with all your recorded music is a big convenience though.

Happy Listening.

And still the question (IF the 'raw material' is 'worthy' of high res processing/recording): where and how do I GET the high res file? I assume the streaming outlets only let you listen, but not SAVE the file. Likely, there are some (crazy expansive) specialty outlets that let you buy and download high res files? 

And only storage media will be computer/harddrive/USB/DVD-R/SSD? 

Or can I buy Dark Side of the Moon or Brothersin Arms in high res on physical media?

For now, I will tray give multichannel a first try, using a Sony X700 via HDMI to my Onkyo. I do NOT know what the signal format will be with this combination, but found it the only way (bought 2 SACD 'capable' players initially only to learn that they don't play true multichannel SACD only read the CD side) using HDMI with a Sony player. Not sure if receiver supports DSD, or if it will be LPCM or PCM. Receiver is Onkyo TX-RX810: 

Processing Features

• HDMI support for 4K/60 Hz, 3D, ARC, Deep Color, x.v.Color, Lip Sync, Dolby Atmos, Dolby TrueHD, DTS:X (with future firmware update), DTS-HD Master Audio, DVD-Audio, SACD, multichannel PCM, and CEC
• HDCP 2.2 supported on HDMI inputs 1-3, main out, and sub out
• Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio decoding
• AK4458 384 kHz/32-bit DAC (8 channels x 1)
• 32-bit digital signal processing engines
• Four DSP gaming modes: Rock, Sports, Action, and RPG
• Theater-dimensional virtual surround function
• Direct Mode and PureAudio Mode

• Atmos, TrueHD, Dolby Digital Plus DAC: AK4458 384 kHz/32-bit

  DTS-HD Master Audio DTS:X via future firmware update

+1 @drmuso and @kr4 

 

A great multichannel mix can add so much to Symphonic recordings, and in two channel a DAC that can accept the DSD output is also special

Think of a multi-lane motorway/freeway. The number of lanes would represent the bandwidth, and the cars going along the road would be the data, so too many cars and not enough lanes=problem. 

DSF over FLAC, never proprietary ALAC.

Assuming context of a high-quality studio master.

It depends on genres of music you are listening to.

For "simple" music, e.g. "a girl and an acoustic guitar", majority of pop songs, 16/44.1 CD format is more than sufficient.

To cover "complex", e.g. prog rock, classical, PCM 24/192 or DSD128 would be better.

For "extreme", such as symphonies requiring 120+ players, PCM 32/384 or DSD256 may be called for.

For storage efficiency, losslessly compress with FLAC or ALAC.

When you have a poor recording , there is only so much you can do, CD or High Res. But if you have a good recording, High Res can sound amazing! Also, a lot has to do with your setup. That Boombox from the Seventies isn’t going to be able to reproduce the dynamic range. But a good Transport, DAC, Amplifier and speakers in a well setup room, no that’s another story.

Now that I've heard SACDs played with their DSD resolution, I would rank the media as follows:

SACD

DVD or Blu-Ray

HDCD

CD

This is based on playing them all through the same transport and DAC.  So, basically, the higher the resolution, the better the sound if you're listening to the same recording.  Before I heard SACDs in DSD, I wasn't impressed with SACDs that were converted to 24/192 PCM.

The difference I hear is that higher-res sounds more analog--smoother with less digital glare or shrillness. 

Now, there are some CDs that were very well-recorded that can sound comparable to higher-res media of other recordings, but they are in the minority, in my experience--mostly audiophile labels like Chesky, Bainbridge, Telarc.

Once you start listening to higher res recordings- And, I might add, recordings that were recorded at high res-you will hear the difference over Redbook.

My caveat refers to old recordings that have been resampled.

B

Glad to hear that CD resolution still 'cuts it', since I am NOT and likely won't be for a long time a 'streamer'. And also came to find out that some 'remixes' (likely with much better resolution) and therefore 'better' are just not the same as the one made available to the public (for example on the original CD). 

 

Sure there are higher resolution formats available but most recordings come only in 1 or 2.  If you want that music, the format is not in question.  Besides, you have to convince yourself that you can hear any difference with the higher resolution medium. 

FWIW, I listen to recordings in my collection which range from CD resolution (16/44.1) to PCM 32/384 or DSD256 and I cannot recall a time when I've selected by resolution except when testing or trying to impress someone.  Choosing between stereo and multichannel?  Well, that's another story.

I thought 'bandwith issue' was referring having to transfer all that 'stuff' through the 'airwaves' for 'streaming', and that is referred to BANDWIDTH (capacity to transfer data). 

It should not (hopefully) not be confused with reslution (24/192 etc). 

So rephrasing the question: best audio format/quality NOT streamed. 

Those pointing ad CD: is there really no better (higher resolution) media/files (commonly) available for purchase (for example through download and stored)?

 

kraftwerkturbo

So if you take 'bandwidth' (I assume to stream music) and/or file size issues out of the picture: what is the best available digital format of music ...

That's an odd question, because there's a common correlation between bandwidth and audio quality.

Good quality CD player and descent rca cables.
speaker quality

 

recording quality of CDs.

quality preamp/receiver. Everything snug in all connections

a good CD player, hard to beat, for quality music reproduction.

always had great sound, bass, mids, crystal highs with a good CD player.

granted, reliability is the hard part. Gone through 8-9 players since mid late 80’s

i listened to streaming at local audio shop, with a good dac, compared to cd,

back and forth with same few songs, I thought the cd had a little crunchier midrange guitar, and more realistic cymbals, and womens singing voices lee Aaron,    
heart, Linda ronstadt, Etta James, zed yago, acid, hellion, some goth band….

and. Newest 2 releases from Jenny darrin, amaranth, vixen, 

then on to other: riot, Gary Moore, uli jon Roth, vandenberg, testament, Def Leppard,pyromania and hysteria metallica master puppets (both have great mastering and great tight fast Kick drum,)

humble pie, American dog, vanden plas, Lillian axe, queensryche, Judas Priest, Dio, Black Sabbath, metal church, thin lizzy, empyrium, UFO,Rory Gallagher, and a few more, the guy was pretty stringy, and didn’t like me handling the volume an player, “dude, I have a very nice system at my house, all taken very good care of, I’ve had my eldest 2 technics SL-1200mkII TT’s longer th you have been Ali young man, they are still in extremely amazing condition for being over 30+ years old, 

he just made a light grunt and sigh, and let me do my thing, and would speak up ) loudly if I forgot (purposely) to turn down volume before changing CDs and changing rca cables, he about blew out his spleen and rectum, when I pulled the CD player to use my own rca cables, I kept quiet, and sullen whole time, as a professional auditioning great equipment, when I went to my truck to grab my Sunfire 600, he looked like I asked him to cut my grass and cut my bushes in a 98 degree humid  summer  day,I laughed inside, trying to not smirk my lips, not easy, he was like a 14 year old kid being asked to come up from his moms basement and turn off his  Xbox to do chores  

anyway' we went th a lot of music, loud, soft, metal, rock, blues, switching from CD player to streaming dac using his player as transport, music hall I think it was, ….no Cambridge transport, 

affter 2 hours, I started with the questions , and still hooking up my amp to his preamps, and cables, etc etc  he was one  crabby ,whiny basement troll.

Another 1 1/2 goes playing music, I brought a good box of CDs with me, still comparing the dac with his music player, and cd players   

I did buy a pair of mid level audioquest rca cables.so   Didn’t feel it a total loss of his precious time.

the streaming sounded about exactly as the good CD player, minus a hint of top sparkle and bass was tighter and deeper with CD player  

mcintosh, Parasound, nad, preamps

parasound, Rotel, Mcintosh amps and receivers  

Cambridge transport, dac I forget, mcintosh music hall, nad CD players 

plus my Sunfire amp and low level audioquest rcas, Belden rcas

had a goood time, always like auditioning audio, slacks, nice shirt, o  loo the part  😎 

 

good times  

this was a few months ago, maybe go again after Christmas and check for sales

 

my .02

Totally agree. Easy answer…

Good quality CD player and descent rca cables. 
speaker quality

 

recording quality of CDs. 
 

quality preamp/receiver. Everything snug in all connections 

a good CD player, hard to beat, for quality music reproduction.

 

my .02