Best cost no object tube phono

What about adding subs to the Quad set up ? Would they integrate well ?

@rauliruegas - sorry to have confused things. I am not equating the electrostatic with the horn in any way except midrange clarity. Impedance, amp demands, etc. all different. I do run my original Quad 57s, which I have owned since around 1973-4 in another system in another room, they were restored, along with a pair of Quad II amps that date from 1961, also restored with primo glass in them. Totally different character, but the midrange on the Quad-- oohla,la. And the horn gives me the clarity, with dynamics, and by adding big subs to the woofer system of the Duo, I get bass impact. The thing that really gelled with these was a switch in cartridges from the Airtight or Lyra to Koetsu stone bodies-- bass with body. Who knew?

Dear @whart  : Normally planar speakers are not high sensitivity and are far away from your horns.

Marbe you can make some research to find out if a planar small speaker can works for you and the Lamm amplifiers working as satellite speakers with your subs handling frequencies from 90hz-100hz and lower. In this way the Lammas will " see " frequencies over 100hz and with out the low bass range you could have headroom to handle the planar speakers.

Other alternative could be the Kerr K300 speakers that comes with a planar tweeter crossing at 1.95khz that means it handle a wide frequency range and along that the K300 is a transmision line design that's has really low distortions neare the performance of planar speakers. So that  you can get that immediacy  and take advantage too of those subs that will handled the frequency below 80-90hz, sensitivity of the K300 is 89db.

Btw, your Avantgarde are very fine speakers, the distributor here ( not any more. ) was a friend of mine and I had several sessions with because not only in his demo rooms but at his home he has those Avantgarde in his system. very nice.

R.

Dear @issak121212 :  ""  Obviously , you seem to know every thing about Hi Fi & already can decide what is the best for music lovers all over the world. ""

Your statement is totally wrong or a total misunderstood for your part. No one know everything about audio and certainly me neither, I'm only a music lover/audiophile lookind for learn to improe my low knowledge levels and ceratinly too I can't dedide what any audio customer buy because that is his exclusive privilege and no one can does what you states.

Sorry but you are wrong.

R.

Hi rauliruegas,
I have just seen your post.
Obviously , you seem to know every thing about Hi Fi & already can decide what is the best for music lovers all over the world.
I will answer you in detail very soon. 
Fawzy

Dear @whart  :  I understand you because that's what I'm doing: listen more and more MUSIC. It's time to enjoy the software and not behind the hardware.

I never owned FM Acoustics but listened several times and as a fact and along other good phono stages the FM was one of my electronics reference when we were in the Essential 3150 phonolinepreamp.

About the EMT I can't understand why audiophiles put their money with. It's not only high end but even mid-fi and this is to say something in favor of it.

R.

By the way, unlike Bill, with age I am more and more into the sound quality. I would hunt obscure and unreleased master tape dubs too, though, if I could. Maybe later. There were many concerts, including and beginning with famous musicians, that were never released. But they were recorded. Some of those, or parts of those, you can sometimes find on youtube.

There is FM Acoustics phono stage for sale on Audiogon. Why don't someone get it and then report back ? It's not expensive. Would be interesting to compare to some tube phono stages.
There is an opinion that whatever else you do, phono stage must always be tube not SS. First step in amplification is most important, that's why.

Hi @rauliruegas - thanks, I'm not in the market, I was curious about the EMT b/c I know a few people who have the unit but never heard it. @syntax thought it was colored.

It is. The EMT is old school sound from the 50's and beyond, it lacks the speed and transparency of most of the top phonos. The MC inputs are hampered by SUT's that restrict the performance of many MC's.

Hi @rauliruegas - thanks, I'm not in the market, I was curious about the EMT b/c I know a few people who have the unit but never heard it. @syntax thought it was colored.
The FM Acoustics line was always very expensive. At this point in my life, with my system, I'm not looking for the best in the world-- the system is very good and to my liking. I have been buying more recherché records and prefer to put my money into music, mainly older, often obscure vinyl. I like finding stuff off the beaten path. Sometimes, I strike gold, musically and sonically.
If I do any gear upgrades, I may eventually change out my Avantgarde Duos which are getting long in the tooth. Because I'm partial to the sound of the Lamm ML2 amp, I need a very sensitive speaker. As a long time electrostatic listener, I was able to quickly adapt to horns, which have an immediacy like a good electrostatic with a different set of trade-offs. I'll leave the FM Acoustics stuff for those still on the climb. Me-- I'm getting older and less in acquisition or upgrade mode -- much love for the old records, though. Thanks for your thoughts....

Dear @whart  : If you have the money the best you can do for your MUSIC listen pleasure is at least buy the 123:

https://www.fmacoustics.com/products/phono-linearizers/fm-123/

As phono stage no tube electronics can't do it including Allnic or the one you can name it.

Only by " curiosity "  could be interesting the technical transistor bulletin and know whom is FM Acoustics:

https://www.fmacoustics.com/download-1/technical-bulletins/

The challenge to design and manufacture a true first rate SS phonolinepreamp is a huge challenge and that's why does not exist " hundreds " of different manufacturers with that kind of quality but with tubes things are a lot more easy and that's why are hundreds of manufacturers and thousands and thousands of people using tube electronics but not because are better.

Anyway, you can give you an opportunity through the FM Acoustics new experiences for your self.

Just an opinion,

R.

Dear @syntax  :  Thank's to posted that because was and is the best audio experiences in my life.

That tour in USA gave me the rare opportunity to meet over 100 fabolous audio and MUSIC lovers/true audiophiles and through the tour I meet really incredible gentlemans: audiophiles, professional reviewers, audio manufacturers, an audio associatioon meeting and the biggest audio dealer in the San Diego area hosted my presentation. This dealer was a big one with 4 good demo rooms and even a small theater/auditory where we had terrific time. A learning experiences for all of us.
The tour gave me at the same time another rare opportunity that was to listen way different home systems from around 40K to over 300K and know/learn the quality level those gentlemans are accustom to listen the MUSIC reproduction. Almost all room/systems were with tubes electronics.
 Inclusive we had the opportunity  to have a dedicated shootout vs Dartzeel phonolinepreamp.

After the tour and in different dates two of those gentleamns started threads where not only the ones I meeted but several other agoners did it. You can read those threads.

I'm not an audio manufacturer I'm a hobbist about and even that after that tour 7 gentlemans unknowed for me bougth the Essential 3150/3160, they live in Asia, Europe and USA.

Formidable experiences, unforgetable no matters what.

Btw, I named my personal unit Essential 3180 because it has at least two important upgrades from the 3160. All those customers are satisfied with.

And you know what: unfortunatelly you will never have the experience to listen/own the 3180. You can't even imagine those quality high levels. Such is life.

Thank's again and enjoy what the life gives you every single day. Stay calm, don't distress because is bad for your health.

R.

@syntax said "for ME, it is like a „Equalizer“ ..after listening, I closed that chapter and never looked back"-- 


Interesting. What are you using now as your main phono stage? I still have the Allnic, only rolled the rectifier. It really works well in my system, although some looking for "more detail" find it "burnished."

Raúl,
stop picking on me... your own promotion tour for your phonopreamp was a disaster and what some told me, they were glad when you left the house..I never had such a „feedback“

I don't think that you want a tube phono stage for great sound. In fact I run an amplification set up that is entirely tubes, but use a solid state phono stage simply because it is better than any tube phono stage I have heard.  (my tube phono stage was relegated to the second system).

Nice post by @rauliruegas, BTW.

Dear @syntax : Over several years I never readed from you a good opinion/comment in electronics units other that the ones you own, so it’s not a surprise what you posted here about FM but I know that any other you always will have a not good enough comment. But each his own.

"" Very analytic, aggressive, pale ....far away from a real thing reproduction. ""

Btw, I doný like it to much that analog rig of your friend. Now live MUSIC certainly is agressive and especially at near field position where the recording microphones are " seated " and I can tell you that these microphones pick-up source information in different way than our ears and that analytic does not came from the electronics.

Rigth now it’s not possible to do it but you need to live more experiences of live MUSIC seated at near field position and then you can attest that MUSIC even can be sometimes ( depending of to which instruments you are listening. ) harsh as with a trumpet or other kind of horns but cymballs too.

No, FM Acoustics is a reference units no matters your opinion. Do it a favor and ask your friend for the 223 and you will learn about and will help you to be aware of many " things " that are not so good as you can think in your room/system. The 223 is a way useful tool to put naked the room/system " anomalies ".

With all respect you tube electronics makes any one laugh against the 223. Look the main subject for what exist a phono preamp is to have a unit that can perfectly accurated an inverse RIAA eq. that can mimic the recording RIAA eq. Well the 223 ( both channels. ) deviation of that RIAA eq. is the outstanding 0.05db over the RIAA frequency range, I know only one unit over the world that beats that number and I’m an owner of that unit. ). Any of the units you own are with a swing of over 1db , go figure: can’t mimic that recording RIAA eq and you can be sure that all your units each channel has different frequecy response/deviation of that RIAA eq.

FM Acoustics electronics puts you nearer to the recording that any electronics you own or owned in your audio life.

So, what are you talking about? A expensive room/system means nothing, knowledge true high levels in audio/MUSIC is what it counts, money always help but that know-how is way more important subject.

R.

... EMT.... yes

for ME, it is like a „Equalizer“ ..after listening, I closed that chapter and never looked back

@syntax - Syn - have you heard the EMT? 

I got a invitation from an Audiophile to listen to his FM Acoustics System... 223 Phono, the biggest preamp and FM mono amps linked to Grand Utopia Speakers. Turntable was Techdas AF1, Graham and Techdas Cart.
It was not a pleasure to listen to. Very analytic, aggressive, pale ....far away from a real thing reproduction. But each his own ...

@rauliruegas i agree, the 223 is the one to go for and probably the finest phono stage in the world. I have the 123, and hope to one day have the 223. Unfortunately, it is MIGHTY expensive. And the 123 is entirely satisfying.
reading through that data sheet, what the FM lacks in flash and flair, is made up for by an incredible knowledge and passion by the man behind it.

Dear @issak121212 : Thöress is in reality a parametric equalizer with many faults no matters what the owners post in sites as WBF and the like.

Audio Note silver parts are not guarantee of anything about quality level performance but only a " candies " for poor knowledge level people, same of those " paper on oil " caps that were used in the radios 70 years ago and the Tantalum named. All those are a kind of BS marketing and nothing else.  
About the silver wire I can tell you that in my system all the electronics external power wires connected to the electrical source are KCAG by Kimber Kable. I’m not talking inside the electronics but the power cables.


""" you must have a valve or tube in the signal ( in at least one component) to get this beautiful sound """

Which beautiful sound?

First mistake in the unit you are talking about is that is not a true balanced design but single ended.

All what you posted is only bla,bla, bla. and we music lover/audiophiles needs some facts so where are the specs at least of the inverse RIAA eq. deviation and noise levels as frequency response.

Certainly something wrong with its other designs because in the new one decided for hybrid one.

75K for that equalizer? come on and ve serious.

Btw, do you read the FM Acoustics link I posted ? if not do it you a favor and do it and please download its data sheet at the end of the link pages. We all need to learn, including me.

R.

Nagra new classic phono stage with psu power supply is absolutely stunning it does it all perfect balance!

Well, IMHO, you must have a valve or tube in the signal ( in at least one component) to get this beautiful sound
I have pretty good system with 4 arms including Axiom & Kuzma14 inch.
Cartridges including Clearaudio Goldfinger..etc.
Phono stages include Burmester 100 & Thoress Phono Enhancer MK2, which has 6 inputs & Equalizer . It is one of the best. Now it is Mk3 & it has 3 valves  ( down from 5 valves in MK 2). It is Hybrid Design & have been told  it is even better than the excellent MK2
However, the reason, i am giving you this boring introduction, is to inform you about the new Thoress Silver phono Signature Enhancer
It has the following ;
1. 2 separate boxes, each one channel with its own power supply.
2. 6 inputs , obviously with different loading to suit individual customers.
3. Equalizer to adjust the sound according to your system
4. All Resisitors , even in the power supply, are Audio Note Silver Tantalum each including VAT is 70 US$.
5. All Signal Caps are all Audio note Silver , 5 Caps in each box ( 10 in Total) , the most expensive of them is 2000 US $
6 . All wires are silver soldered by hand  & all of them , including the power supply are 5N Silver
7. All Phone inputs & outputs are made of  Silver
8. Power Caps are massive Paper in Oil Caps good enough for signal path 
9. each box has 3 valves
10 Hybrid Design
11. Isolation; the feet of each box are Stillpoint Ultra 6, Each box has 4 Ultra 6, each retail for over 1000 US$ ( 8000 US $ for the feet or isolation)
More information From info@thoeress.com
The price is not yet fixed.but it will be 75,000 US $ PLUS
Fawzy Issa

Dear friends: Many information in the FM Acoustics data sheet is an " open eyes " interesting for any one of us and take a look to the last 2 pages of the data sheet that’s where the unit specs comes and you will know what means a true cost no object design. You can download at the end of the link pages.

No one SS/Tube electronics units at even higher prices that FM Acoustics units comes with that high knowledge levels information and probably several if not all manufacturers not even " imagine " about.

R.

Dear @gmercer : Agree, this is the one to go for:

https://www.fmacoustics.com/products/phono-linearizers/fm-223/

R.

If you are now interested in SS phono cost no object, I cannot recommend FM Acoustics highly enough. If there is one FM piece to have, in my opinion, it is their phono stage. 

If you are still on tubes, my cost no object in tubes would be Conrad Johnson. Though that VAC Statement is pure eye candy. 

Maybe not the most expensive, but the Tavish adagio is a great phono preamp. 

I would be interested to know with paralleled tube circuits, how can you ensure the tube sections parallelled are matched, and stay matched over a reasonable time. If they are not perfectly matched, then I would assume smearing of signal occurs.

It turns out that they don't have to be matched so much as screened for low noise. The paralleled sections behave as a single tube section so there isn't any 'smearing'.


By using a cascode you can easily get the gain needed for LOMC and getting bandwidth isn't an issue.

realworld, I am an admirer of Hagerman, have long been interested in his Trumpet phono stage, yet I never heard of the Violin phono stage.  You imply it is no longer available.  When was it made, during what period of time?  Have you got a schematic?  Thanks.
While I am also an admirer of the Wavestream Kinetics, I think the need (not the occasional usefulness) of all the extra equalization filters is over-rated, at least with respect to my own LP collection, which mostly post-dates the use of anything other than RIAA.
This is an interesting topic, as it forces one to conjure up old time highpoints in audio design and designers.

Wavestream Kinetic link offers to truly take care of you...

"For those less technical, we can help you select EQs if you can provide us with:

• Record label
• Year or matrix number
• Images of the markings in the label surround (groove run-out area)

Yet another alternative would be to send us a sample record for testing at The Audio Archive."

Adding the SUT will just kick dynamics into a whole new gear.. their combination is just superb!

Low gear. SUT's have phase shifts that vary across the frequency spectrum. They cannot preserve accurate time & phase relationships across the full frequency spectrum accurately. They can achieve high gain/low noise, but they cannot preserve speed and coherency. Their endemic phase shifts and colourations provide a rose tinted view of the world, but not accurate reproduction of the signal.

This solution is not cost no object (cost always matters;). It is a non-plus ultra scenario for realistic people. Perhaps the best designed phono stage that had more thought put into it than money-oriented no object designs. Adding the SUT will just kick dynamics into a whole new gear.. their combination is just superb!

I see this path as a straight ticket to audio heaven: Expressive Technologies step up transformer + Hagerman Violin phono stage (tubed, with choke input dual power supplies and separate filament supply. You can choose between 4 RIAA curves, and it has polarity switch, so listening in correct polarity is not an issue anymore). The Violin is an extremely unerrated phono stage, never got fame because Jim sold it waaaay under its performance value. He had to stop making it because he did not break even. Still, the price tag was not cheap, but it was what the unit packs... opposed to "cost no object pricing", inflating the real value by a factor of x10 - x20, and spending more on a shiny chassis than for the goods and technology contained. Just a sad fact of life...I’m always on the look out for "thought no object" designs, where there was serious thought about realistic performance, instead of breaking barriers on unavailability. 

@atmasphere 

I would be interested to know with paralleled tube circuits, how can you ensure the tube sections parallelled are matched, and stay matched over a reasonable time. If they are not perfectly matched, then I would assume smearing of signal occurs.

There are a few threads on this. As Raul points out it is very difficult to get very low noise in an all tube phono stage.

Difficult but not impossible. To get low noise with tubes you do some of the same things that are done in solid state preamp- particularly those that have opamps:
1) have a tightly regulated power supply2) use differential inputs3) use effective constant current sources for those differential circuits
In addition you simply parallel tube sections as part of your means of reducing noise.

The reason differential gain stages are used in solid state (and in some tube phono sections) is that for every stage of gain that is differential, theoretically you get 6dB less noise. This adds up- if you have two stages of differential gain, that's 12dB lower noise. But to that theoretical limit the constant current source really has to work.


If you do this then its no worries getting a phono stage to work fine with a cartridge of 0.2mV with gain to spare.

Here’s a 22 tubed unit. Lots of reviews on the web here's some discussion in these forums. We'll under $10000.
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/review-new-valve-order-spa-ii-tube-preamp

Here is another phono stage worthy of consideration. Not tube though

https://www.lejonklou.com/products/singularity/

These are all child toys. Cost no object who gives a damn phono stage is custom built for you. Choose any designer. Some won’t do for less than $1 million. Too much ? In any case, any aligned and calibrated Studer with master tape dub will outperform any million dollar phono stage along with that funny 300 pounds rotating platter.
Don’t waste your money, even if it is your money. Get any of those for double the cost of your cartridge and that will do it.
And if you want real high performance - that’s tape, my man.

EAR-Yoshino 912, which throws in a line stage for free. Read the 5-man tribute to EAR designer-builder Tim de Paravicini in the new Stereophile.

One more to consider,  however I have not owned this particular unit is the too of the line VAC phono.

One was available here on Agon, however,  I didn't buy it....

Respectfully, 
Jose

I have personal experience with the following;  please consider the following, 

Boulder 2008 or 2108
Ypsilon , all silver if possible. 
DSA Phono - full of features.

You won't regret either one of these. 

Respectfully, 
Jose

A couple people who live on your side of the planet have this unit. I have not heard it, it is quite expensive, and but as Ferris Bueller said, "if you have the means...": http://emt-international.ch/e/jpa66.php 

Look at the top-end preamps from BottleHead

lewm8,595 posts02-14-2021 11:42amTeo, nice piece of writing. You realize it’s all assertions on your part, I’m sure.

Tell us what you really think lewm :-)

Implementation is everything and it is very easy to measure these claimed distortions. At these signal levels, wide open loop bandwidths with SS provide more than enough gain to cancel out distortion.  Remember tubes and the listed SS devices are only linear because of inherent feedback. 

You said you miss the mid range sweetness.   Know one so far has address that.  Do your self a favor and have Dave Slagle  build you a LCR all tube phono.  I had accuphase integraded  100 watt amp for 25 years.  Not even close to my All DHT 4 stage all interstaged transformer push pull 845 amps.

Enjoy the ride
Tom

I have to say I have heard Trons at shows and they are superb.
if you have multiple arms/carts get urself a Thoress.
what is in the rest of the system?

Air Tight ATE-3011 copper Wire
Kondo GE-10 Silver Wire
both need SUT .

@tablejockey I have the Icon PS2 MM Pre in my system and it is fantastic.

Have Thorens TD145 with a MP200 cartridge.

Great combination.

I have the vendetta - I have stopped looking

The best phono stages I have ever heard are the Atma-sphere MP1, Raul’s and Jose’s 3160 phono line preamp, and the Ypsilon phono stage, if you only need enough gain for MM cartridges. With modifications to its output stage, I would add the Manley steelhead version 2.0 to that list. I have never heard the Wave Kinetics phono stage, and I looked hard to find one on the used market the last time I was shopping, but I would sure like to hear it.
So on my list I have all-tube, all-ss, and hybrid designs. I have heard the Io, the Dolshi (not the latest), and a few other highly regarded ones, and in my opinion they fall a little short of the ones I like best, mostly due to noise. I have also owned two different examples of the MFA luminescence, and those did not rise to the highest level. I never heard the “legendary” CTC blowtorch or the Vendetta.