Best cost no object tube phono

''The best'' assume comparison in the sense of ''quantification'':

''All x are Fx & Gx''. If there is one x which does not satisfy

conditions F&G than the statement is not true.

Who has inspected  ''all cartridges'' (Raul?). 

Mulveling, if 65db is not enough gain via the MC inputs, you can use a SUT into the MM inputs. And since you can have anywhere from 50 to 65db gain thru the MM inputs , plus the voltage gain added by a SUT, there is absolutely no cartridge on earth that has too low a voltage output for the Steelhead. I have run my AT ART7 with an output of 0.12mV via the Steelhead with no SUT. I am currently running my Ortofon MC2000 into the MM inputs using a pre preamp to boost cartridge output.

$10K is not cheap. The build quality is very decent but some capacitors in the signal path could be upgraded. I’ve done so in mine. No preamp on earth is worth $90K. I don’t care how many chassis’ are needed for stereo. Steelhead is frequently mentioned here, so I don’t know why you think it’s under the radar.

I wander why the Steelhead is not mentioned more often since it is a USA product.

Some guesses:
It’s been around a long time without any superficially visible new versions. The ultra high-end segment seems to love either "brand NEW version Alpha Centauri Mk MCXIII SE+ Prime Sigma RED, only {$$$MEGA BUX$$$}!", or really really vintage. Also $10K is no longer attention grabbing in the ultra segment, and yet it’s too pricey for most ordinary folk. Are there even many Manley dealers anymore? They seemed to be a lot more available and talked about in hifi circles in the 2000s.

It also tops out at 65dB, which is a bit low compared to some other ultra phono stages’ 70dB+. I wouldn’t want to run a 0.2mV on 65dB. Personally I like to have 70dB on tap.

I’d still love to try one someday. It was a tantalizing fruit, well beyond my reach when I first got into vinyl.

What it might sound as an unfair comparison, I own a Manly Steelhead and when I compare it my CH P1 (one for each channel) with two X1 power supplies, I can’t stop getting amazed on how well the Steelhead sounds.

Yes the CH P1 is better at everything and would not replace it with a Steelhead, BUT I cant stop to be amazed at how well the Steelhead sounds.

Following some advice from some users here some guts were replaced with better quality, but not much, which transformed the Steelhead for the better.

The Steelhead is $10k ($10800 with the modification), the CH about $90k and I have no problem listening to the Steelhead all day long. I just wish Manley did use a few better components and not be cheap in a $10K phono stage, but my hat to them specially since this design is pretty old.

I wander why the Steelhead is not mentioned more often since it is a USA product.

I bet that's expensive, given the pretentious descriptive passages on the website.

https://ariesceratespana.com/pages/talos-mk2-ref-phono-stage/

@reimarc 

Since the hum has been in two phono sections so far, I am suspicious they are not the problem. It might be that there is a problem with the tonearm cable and/or wiring. Or it could be an issue where the phono section is too close to a hum source like a power transformer from an associated component. I would certainly test these possibilities before proceeding with any other equipment!

@lewm 

Yeah, no ideas on those 2 weird issues he's having. Just pointing out that his pairing of the LPS with other gear made me think "woah, I wouldn't do that".

Problem with an LPS into a 1:15 SUT is you end up with the cartridge seeing a 209ohm impedance. That could audibly attenuate treble, assuming a 47K ohm load resistance across the phono inputs, but Reimac was not complaining about that. The mismatch would not cause excessive hum or noise.

@reimarc

I’m surprised / impressed you able to balance the 16g LPS on a ProJect arm, but this is probably a case of too much cartridge for your deck.

I have an LPS in my collection and felt it wasn’t a great match for a SUT - I’ve tried several, all ratios. My phono stage is a VAC Renaissance (internal SUT), which makes all my OTHER cartridges sound by far their best (especially with a better matched outboard SUT), but the LPS is the odd man out here. I would indeed be looking at an ARC Reference if I were tying to optimally match the LPS. I can hear many things the LPS does well on my Graham Phantom and Hagerman Trumpet MC, and it’s great, but not quite up to the levels I can reach with other cartridges (including lower Benzes) on my VAC phono.

The lower Benz Ebony L and Zebrawood L (not the Ruby) models are far, far easier to work with because of their normal body weight and low impedance coils with a good output level. And they sound wonderful! They’re stellar with a SUT in the range of 15x (Zebra) - 30x (Ebony). In my system the Ebony and Zebra get lots of play, while the LPS simply rests waiting for a better phono match - which quite honestly may not be happening anytime soon (I don’t have any room for both an ARC and the VAC lol).

TLDR; you should have got a Zebrawood L with 0.4mV output and 12 ohm coils (not the ruby-plate Zebra, the iron-cross one)

Good grief reimarc!

Might be helpful to start a new thread and keep the concern short and concise.

I lost interest in reading midway thru.

Reimarc, You need an in-home evaluation by another experienced and knowledgeable audiophile. Your story is much too complex to be addressed by anyone who hasn’t been in your listening room. I assume Dave Slagle knew you were using a cartridge with a 37 ohm internal resistance. Because pairing that with a 1:15 SUT is tricky. Of course, now you are presumably not using the SUT with the XP25. And your issue is not with the XP25 so much as it is that you are surprised the XP25 did not cure your pre-existing problem(s). Can you boil down your lengthy story to one or two sentences? That usually gets better results here. By the way, no one "needs" a $30,000 and up phono stage, like any of those you apologized for not being able to afford, in order to enjoy noise-free vinyl.

Hello there: I came across this thread this morning, after a sleepless night fussing about the "new" Pass Labs XP-25 I installed yesterday into my system. I hope this thread is still alive. My question concerns the XP-25 phono stage, and what I am perhaps doing wrong with it, because - contrary to all the glowing reviews - it does not should good. I hope some of you Audiogoners have a personal experience with this instrument, and can tell me where my problem might originate.  here is some background:

I use a Linkwitz LX521.4 loudspeaker pair, which produces an extraordinarily deep soundstage with pin-point accuracy of the instruments, singers, percussion, etc. on that stage. The late Siegfried Linkwitz was a good friend and my wife and I spent many delightful hours at his home listening to his latest creations, of which this one is the last (https://www.linkwitzlab.com). I bought the speaker kit from Frank Brenner in Germany, together with his integrated Powerbox amps (https://www.linkwitz.com), and built the speakers myself using the precisely matched SEAS cones. There are two central points to the eprformance of these speakers: first, they are open-baffle designs, where the peculiar shape of the baffle creates a circular sound wave between the front and rear of each speaker. Second, each speaker cone is driven by its own dedicated amplifier after the signal is split up in an active crossover (part of the Powerboxes) to match the optimal response curves of the individual speakers (4 channels/ 6 cones). Moreover, the Powerboxes (one needs one for each channel) are integrated with a DAC and preamp. The result is first of all fatigue-less listening and seamless frequency reproduction. I use a MSB CD transport and DAC (Platinum Signature), which does a fine job keeping the digital information sounding as "natural" as it gets; I use the analog signal from the MSB DAC, bypassing the one in the Power Boxes. My analog end is a ProJect 10 Carbon tt with a Benz-Micro LPS MC cartridge (37 Ohm inner resistance). And here's where the rubber meets the road: my first phono stage was a Lehmann Black Box SE II, which came highly recommended by Mr. Fremer. It sounded fine and gave me some idea what my speakers would be capable of in terms of staging. And it was completely quiet! But reading through many blogs and other Stereophile recommendations, I decided to have Dave Slagle build me a custom-wired SUT (1:15 all copper) and use the Lehmann in MM mode. Expectedly, that gave me more of everything: larger images, wider (but not deeper) soundstage and a fuller midrange. And yet I still had this strange modulation in the highs (my wife calls it "buzz") which to me sounded like a load/impedance mismatch of sorts. Especially soprano voice (I am a Callas fan) came across almost shrill in the coloratura passages.  So, I was happy to I read Herb Reichert's review about the Japanese Sunvalley SQ1616 tubed phono stage (https://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-42-sunvalley-audio-sv-eq1616d-phono-equalizer) and its sound characteristics. Maybe a tubed front-end was the solution. So I purchased a brand-new unit from the Canadian importer Victor Kung, who equipped it with a German set of NOS Telefunken tubes and a large ELROG ER274B rectifier (by itself a $1,200 item). In any case: the sound was a two edged sword: the soundstage became even deeper and the performers, whether opera, orchestra, or Pink Floyd appeared with very sharp focus, almost holographically. In this sense this little wonder showed wonderful synergy with the LX speakers. But: there was a distinct and persistent  hum, regardless where I would put the ground lug from my TT. And on top of it, the sharpness in the highs was now even more emphasized. Bummer! So I kept reading about the other phono stage options out there, which would not need me to takeout  a mortgage on our house. So the Ypsilons, CH Precisions or FM Acoustics, even Boulder were out of the question (for now, at least), but two others came up consistently in various fora and reviews: Audio Research and Pass Labs XP-25. I remembered the AR from a previous Rocky Mountain Audio Fest, where I found it too "sharp" for lack of a better word. The Pass, on the other hand, had consistently great reviews and J.R. Boisclair of WAM Engineering, who helped my with the proper set up of my Benz cartridge, called it spectacular, using one in his own rig. So, when a used XP-25 came up on US Audiomart, I went for it. It arrived two days ago, and the seller wanted me to try it out before either paying for it or sending it back. The two-box unit looks new and the contacts are shiny. So, I replaced my Sunvalley/EMIA combo with the XP-25 and .... it hums! One of the things all reviewers pointed out was the "complete silence" of this phono stage, but this sample has a low, but distinct hum, no matter how I ground the TT. That was a real downer, but even worse: my priced deep and articulate sound stage collapsed. First, I felt moving in the concert venue from y favorite row 12 to row 5, but even so, the soundstage stayed between my speakers, and did not open up behind it, leading to a wide rendering of Callas' occupying the entire center, almost like a cut-out. What the hell is going on here? I am lost for ideas. Now, the XP-25 allows for almost countless permutations of resistance- and capacitance loadings in combo with three gain setting, and by spending several hours of switch-and-listen, I came up with a setting that eliminated the "buzz" in the highs, however, again with a cost: the sound is now much "thicker" and also too warm, making a soprano voice sound almost like a Mezzo. Anyway: I am sorry for the lengthy contribution to this exquisite audience, but you know how it is once you fell into the Rabbit Hole: I literally could not sleep last night, pondering what I might have done wrong or overlooked. So, please, help!      Happy Holidays!

Lagonda, your are lucky that your above post has not been 'sanitized'...i certainly believe it should be. Both Raul and I have the same opinion -- you clearly have a high level of frustration, distress and anger...that doesn't belong here.

Yes Davey you and Raul might have been invited, but where obviously also disinvited on several occasions. You have a grudge against WBF and expressed that grudge in the Wilson V thread as late as yesterday, that why i commented on your previous shenanigans. I did sign up to Audiogon with kps25sc, back in 2007 for buying equipment, long before joining WBF, but did not post in this forum until much later. I can post in both forums, not like you ! I do prefer WBF by a wide margin, maybe because they sanitize it from classy people like you and Raul, you two obviously belong together !

kps, certainly you like to show and confirm the stupidity levels:

"  the place people go when they get kicked out of WBF. First Raul, ""

I don't came here because I never left Agon and I'm an Agoner way before wbf exist as a fact I was there before by an expressily/specific wbf invitation.

Btw, your touted " high knowlege levels in wbf " is not what you showed here and there and that's your high frustration, distress and anger.

 be happy and return to that cage.

R.

Dear @mcmprov  : I think that your Accuphase can gives you over 20 db of gain, so 76+ db of gain with the added FM is way enough for any MC cartridge.

""   how important it is to optimize gain between the phono stage and the cartridge.  ""

It's important because if the cartridge output is to high can overload the phono stage, fortunatelly today almost any decent PS has very good overload levels.

Now at the other side of the gain " range " the trouble we can have to use the phono stage volume wide open is that noise level could be a little higher but this trouble certainly you just have to forgeret because does not appears with those two very good SS designs: Accuphase and FM Acoustics that develops really low noise levels that you or any one can't detect under playing conditions.

In reality you and your cartridge quality level performance will be totally safe about that issue mentioned by you.

R.

@rauliruegas Thanks for bringing to our attention the member from WBF who goes by Lagonda (kps25sc over here). As you well know, he is a major besotted disciple of the guru over there. As you also mentioned, seems like Lagonda had the temerity to state that there were more experienced members on that forum...LOL!

Thanks Raul.  Good to know.  That will be great it they can customize the gain.  

Thanks Ralph.  Yes, I have the EMT OFD 65, and the Miyajima Infinity Mono 3 mil for 78s as well.  Aside from noise, I'd worry that the wide grooves of 78s might mess up my microgrove mono cartridges (OFD 15 / 25, Miyajima 1.0 mil).  Anyway, you might be pleased to know that I also have the AtmaSphere MP1...I'm your customer from California who asked for the mods so that I can use reel to reel tapes (IEC / NAB).  I should send my unit in for an update to the latest version...when funds permit.  I hope all is well, and I really appreciate the insight you share on these forums.  All the best, Mark

I'd probably have in mind to use EMT OFD 15, 25, 65 & JSD with FM Acoustics...to easily take advantage of the EQ curves, as I have many 78s.

@mcmprov Do you have cartridges with 78rpm styli as well? The larger stylus makes less noise in the groove!

Dear @mcmprov : Great cartridges youown. Normally FM can gives you the unit with higher gain but I?m not totally sure.

The best you can do is tocontact RM here: 

https://www.fmacoustics.com/contact/

R.

Don’t know why web designer made this huge QUOTE button above the dialog window if some of the oldest audiogon members still have no clue how to use it ! And their huge passages are impossible to read, impossible to understand with those pieces of text from other people passages they are using.

When you quote someone, please select fragment of text you like and then click first button above your dialog window:

it will help us to read a quote, OK ?

At least we can separate quotes from actual post, very easy !

I thought this was a discussion about phono stages.😉
I like certain parts of wbf in particular the science based and acoustics section.
Wbf does go a tad ‘I spent a lot so it must be good’ Audiogon tends to try and compare £50 bargains with £8000 components and say it’s better... 

I am very interested in the FM Acoustics 123.  However, I wonder about the gain settings, either 46 dB or 56 dB for the 122 (assuming 123 is about the same, I couldn't find data).  For which cartridges would these settings be optimal?  Perhaps, such figures are meaningless and not comparable with other manufacturers.  I notice that most manufactures offer a setting in the mid 60s dB range, which would be suitable for many of today's top cartridges.  I have a variety of cartridges, turntables, and tonearms.  I'd probably have in mind to use EMT OFD 15, 25, 65 & JSD with FM Acoustics...to easily take advantage of the EQ curves, as I have many 78s.  But for this kind of money, I would really like to have a solid state unit that can be used with a great variety of cartridges.   I also own Lyra Etna, My Sonic Labs Signature Platinum, Ortofon SPU Century, & Benz LPS, each of which would appear to need more than 56 dB of gain.  My solid state system is Accuphase C3800 and A46, both of which have flexible gain settings.  As such, I am optimistic about being able to get sensible volume levels.  As such, I am really asking experienced audiophiles about how important it is to optimize gain between the phono stage and the cartridge.  I would really appreciate any insight.  All the best, Mark

Waste of time and energy, bye bye Raul  !

Btw, I enjoy to stay laug but for respect to Agoners I recomend to you try to stay calm and forgeret of your personal problems..

R.

You insult the whole audio community with your every day antics, Perro ! That is why they keep kicking you out of forums !

Insult the Agon community using your moniker ( in other forum. ) it's. Shame of you.

R.

What moniker i use in another forum is really none of your business Raul ! You really are like a Chihuahua with a bone !

kps25sc : ""    quoting yourself and other people from WBF in this thread ""

    It's incredible because with out " touch " you in this thread your first post here was a direct " attack " to  me:


""  At least he stays away from WBF when he can post on Audiogon.  ""

and when I gave you an answer to your " no sense " post and mentioned that some one with a lagonda moniker in wbf ( I don't brought here wbf was you. ) insulted to Agon community you will followed posting and don't disclosed that was you and this is dishonest for say the least. That's what you showed here, at least I'm not dishonest or a lier.

Even that you just followed and follow, maybe to have the last word. Good.

R.

You mean you are finished quoting yourself and other people from WBF in this thread about " Cost no object tube amps" ? Wonderful !

What did you not understand : " end of wbf...?

Yes, this is a free world and you can go on and on on your " windmills."


R.

Raul when i like  a product after hearing it and keep it, that trumps any argument against it from someone i don't know on the internet, sorry. And that nobody bothers discussing with you on a thread in WBF could also mean they don't want to bother fighting windmills !

@kps25sc : Seem to me that maybe the op will not come back to his thread.

wbf: I read for the first time all the Peter/OP GC thread that I posted here the link and obviously re-read my posts there and all the posted answers to and found out that even that I really " push " hard and " crushed " with real explanations why the 3012 was and is a bad tonearm ( of course that you posted there too. ) no one in the stampede including the one that started posted nothing in favor of the 3012 or against what I posted.

The OP was " shocked " for what I posted about his 3012 and with nothing to argue/say because he never read it in that forum nothing but only " glorious " posts in favor of the 3012 ( all subjective ones, no facts. ) and I noted his anger looking for some one of you ( members: tang, david, you or some one else. Btw, David posted something in agreement with me about a cartridge issue. ) gave him some kind of " support "/hel because he felts alone and with out arguments in favor of.


You posted here on the 3012r:

" that performed subjectivity as good.. SAT...."

when any audiophile use the subjectivity word ( as you did it. ) the dialogue is closed and always the gentleman that uses that word is rigth because it’s not a fact but only a subjective opinion and no one can argue against that other human bean subjectivity.

Exactly as here:

"" Tango has gotten rid of the 2 SAT arms he had, he prefers the 3012R "

Tango has no facts that can explain in objective terms that superiority ( only good humor. ), as you posted: " he prefers ", subjective, end of the dialogue and:

End of the wbf episode.

R.

The stampede was towards a affordable arm that performed subjectivity as good as the high priced SAT arm at 1/10 of the cost. It was purchased on faith for a lot of us, but would not have been keepers if it had not performed well. Digital has in my opinion never gotten the treble, and rhythm right, it is in my opinion never as engaging as really good vinyl. As for bass yes digital in general has the number on both channel separation and lowest octave, but in the very important mid-bass region vinyl just sounds more natural and engaging with the right equipment in my opinion, with the gear i have heard, and with all those other disclaimers. I do think audio choices are very system and taste dependent, there are no absolute truths, or measurements that tell the whole story.

Dear @kps25sc : I don't know from where comes out the bass range that you or carmelli/tango touted as " natural, very musical..."

Very musical is an atracttive audiophile adjective as " natural " but both expressions means only added distortions. Your SME/LPS combination puts the resonance frequency at 7hz ( same as the tango combination . ). Other than that the 3012R has a lot of not good enough design characteriscis that latter on SME fixed through its now " old " 5 model.

The only home audio alternative that can puts all of us truer to the recording in that  3012 " touted " bass range is the digital alternative that's the must natural one other than the live MUSIC.

Then, that some of you like the same kind of high distortions levels those not means is rigth as carmeli posted.

Main advantage and main difference between analog and digital ( everything the same )  belongs to the bass range in favor of digital.

The 3012 wbt episode was exactly as a " stampede " when one start to run in panic ( no panic here. ) followed for hundreds of similar audiophiles and when one audiophile ask to other: " hey why are you running? the other says: never mind don't ask and keep running.

As you said: "  we all have our preferences ! "

R.

I forgot: neonknight, antinn, tomwh, millercarbon, cleeds, loahnimal, rodman999, billstevenson, david-ten, moonglum, bluewolf, larryi, rgordonpf, eldartford, sdrsdrsdr, has2be, stitrain, etc, etc,

I suggest a conversation with Tom Vu at Triangle Art. He will help open your eyes (and your ears). I have his cell phone number if you can't reach him through normal means. His P200...all I have to say until you hear it for yourself. Not inexpensive, but you did say the best and cost is not part of the equation...just hope the TT and, especially, the cartridge are up to muster...Tom will direct you there, too!

I have SME 3012R mounted too Raul, a wonderful arm with the right cartridge, it does something really right in the bass, not too analytical, very musical. My Maplenoll LT arm with a front mounted silicone trough on the same TT digs a little deeper but is also more analytical, i alternate depending on records. Tango has gotten rid of the 2 SAT arms he had, he prefers the 3012R and his SAEC 508 on his favorite TT the AS 2000. He also owns 3 other top tables, but almost never uses them after getting the AS 2000, he also has almost every top cartridge. I trust his ears ! And he has a great sense of humor !

Dear @kps25sc :  Carmeli posted in wbt:

" most elusive elements of reproduction are bass, sense of space and portrayal of scale to get right if you want "natural" and this is where the 3012-r is unmatched by any other tonearm I've owned and heard. Everything is just right with this arm. "  ( including vintage internal wiring. ).

Tango 500K+ system has mounted more than one 3012  along SAT ones

Several other high knowlegedg$$ gentlemans " die for ". Go figure.

R.

@kps25sc : "  and that I know are not posting in wbt  ""

R.