Dear @syntax : Over several years I never readed from you a good opinion/comment in electronics units other that the ones you own, so it’s not a surprise what you posted here about FM but I know that any other you always will have a not good enough comment. But each his own.
"" Very analytic, aggressive, pale ....far away from a real thing reproduction. ""
Btw, I doný like it to much that analog rig of your friend. Now live MUSIC certainly is agressive and especially at near field position where the recording microphones are " seated " and I can tell you that these microphones pick-up source information in different way than our ears and that analytic does not came from the electronics.
Rigth now it’s not possible to do it but you need to live more experiences of live MUSIC seated at near field position and then you can attest that MUSIC even can be sometimes ( depending of to which instruments you are listening. ) harsh as with a trumpet or other kind of horns but cymballs too.
No, FM Acoustics is a reference units no matters your opinion. Do it a favor and ask your friend for the 223 and you will learn about and will help you to be aware of many " things " that are not so good as you can think in your room/system. The 223 is a way useful tool to put naked the room/system " anomalies ".
With all respect you tube electronics makes any one laugh against the 223. Look the main subject for what exist a phono preamp is to have a unit that can perfectly accurated an inverse RIAA eq. that can mimic the recording RIAA eq. Well the 223 ( both channels. ) deviation of that RIAA eq. is the outstanding 0.05db over the RIAA frequency range, I know only one unit over the world that beats that number and I’m an owner of that unit. ). Any of the units you own are with a swing of over 1db , go figure: can’t mimic that recording RIAA eq and you can be sure that all your units each channel has different frequecy response/deviation of that RIAA eq.
FM Acoustics electronics puts you nearer to the recording that any electronics you own or owned in your audio life.
So, what are you talking about? A expensive room/system means nothing, knowledge true high levels in audio/MUSIC is what it counts, money always help but that know-how is way more important subject.
R.
|
I don't think that you want a tube phono stage for great sound. In fact I run an amplification set up that is entirely tubes, but use a solid state phono stage simply because it is better than any tube phono stage I have heard. (my tube phono stage was relegated to the second system).
Nice post by @rauliruegas, BTW. |
Raúl,
stop picking on me... your own promotion tour for your phonopreamp was a disaster and what some told me, they were glad when you left the house..I never had such a „feedback“ |
@syntax said "for ME, it is like a „Equalizer“ ..after listening, I closed that chapter and never looked back"--
Interesting. What are you using now as your main phono stage? I still have the Allnic, only rolled the rectifier. It really works well in my system, although some looking for "more detail" find it "burnished."
|
Dear @syntax : Thank's to posted that because was and is the best audio experiences in my life.
That tour in USA gave me the rare opportunity to meet over 100 fabolous audio and MUSIC lovers/true audiophiles and through the tour I meet really incredible gentlemans: audiophiles, professional reviewers, audio manufacturers, an audio associatioon meeting and the biggest audio dealer in the San Diego area hosted my presentation. This dealer was a big one with 4 good demo rooms and even a small theater/auditory where we had terrific time. A learning experiences for all of us.
The tour gave me at the same time another rare opportunity that was to listen way different home systems from around 40K to over 300K and know/learn the quality level those gentlemans are accustom to listen the MUSIC reproduction. Almost all room/systems were with tubes electronics.
Inclusive we had the opportunity to have a dedicated shootout vs Dartzeel phonolinepreamp.
After the tour and in different dates two of those gentleamns started threads where not only the ones I meeted but several other agoners did it. You can read those threads.
I'm not an audio manufacturer I'm a hobbist about and even that after that tour 7 gentlemans unknowed for me bougth the Essential 3150/3160, they live in Asia, Europe and USA.
Formidable experiences, unforgetable no matters what.
Btw, I named my personal unit Essential 3180 because it has at least two important upgrades from the 3160. All those customers are satisfied with.
And you know what: unfortunatelly you will never have the experience to listen/own the 3180. You can't even imagine those quality high levels. Such is life.
Thank's again and enjoy what the life gives you every single day. Stay calm, don't distress because is bad for your health.
R. |
Dear @whart : If you have the money the best you can do for your MUSIC listen pleasure is at least buy the 123: https://www.fmacoustics.com/products/phono-linearizers/fm-123/As phono stage no tube electronics can't do it including Allnic or the one you can name it. Only by " curiosity " could be interesting the technical transistor bulletin and know whom is FM Acoustics: https://www.fmacoustics.com/download-1/technical-bulletins/The challenge to design and manufacture a true first rate SS phonolinepreamp is a huge challenge and that's why does not exist " hundreds " of different manufacturers with that kind of quality but with tubes things are a lot more easy and that's why are hundreds of manufacturers and thousands and thousands of people using tube electronics but not because are better. Anyway, you can give you an opportunity through the FM Acoustics new experiences for your self. Just an opinion, R. |
Hi @rauliruegas - thanks, I'm not in the market, I was curious about the EMT b/c I know a few people who have the unit but never heard it. @syntax thought it was colored.
The FM Acoustics line was always very expensive. At this point in my life, with my system, I'm not looking for the best in the world-- the system is very good and to my liking. I have been buying more recherché records and prefer to put my money into music, mainly older, often obscure vinyl. I like finding stuff off the beaten path. Sometimes, I strike gold, musically and sonically.
If I do any gear upgrades, I may eventually change out my Avantgarde Duos which are getting long in the tooth. Because I'm partial to the sound of the Lamm ML2 amp, I need a very sensitive speaker. As a long time electrostatic listener, I was able to quickly adapt to horns, which have an immediacy like a good electrostatic with a different set of trade-offs. I'll leave the FM Acoustics stuff for those still on the climb. Me-- I'm getting older and less in acquisition or upgrade mode -- much love for the old records, though. Thanks for your thoughts.... |
Hi @rauliruegas - thanks, I'm not in the market, I was curious about the EMT b/c I know a few people who have the unit but never heard it. @syntax thought it was colored. It is. The EMT is old school sound from the 50's and beyond, it lacks the speed and transparency of most of the top phonos. The MC inputs are hampered by SUT's that restrict the performance of many MC's. |
There is FM Acoustics phono stage for sale on Audiogon. Why don't someone get it and then report back ? It's not expensive. Would be interesting to compare to some tube phono stages.
There is an opinion that whatever else you do, phono stage must always be tube not SS. First step in amplification is most important, that's why. |
By the way, unlike Bill, with age I am more and more into the sound quality. I would hunt obscure and unreleased master tape dubs too, though, if I could. Maybe later. There were many concerts, including and beginning with famous musicians, that were never released. But they were recorded. Some of those, or parts of those, you can sometimes find on youtube. |
Dear @whart : I understand you because that's what I'm doing: listen more and more MUSIC. It's time to enjoy the software and not behind the hardware.
I never owned FM Acoustics but listened several times and as a fact and along other good phono stages the FM was one of my electronics reference when we were in the Essential 3150 phonolinepreamp.
About the EMT I can't understand why audiophiles put their money with. It's not only high end but even mid-fi and this is to say something in favor of it.
R. |
Hi rauliruegas,
I have just seen your post. Obviously , you seem to know every thing about Hi Fi & already can decide what is the best for music lovers all over the world. I will answer you in detail very soon. Fawzy |
Dear @issak121212 : ""
Obviously , you seem to know every thing about Hi Fi & already can decide what is the best for music lovers all over the world. ""
Your statement is totally wrong or a total misunderstood for your part. No one know everything about audio and certainly me neither, I'm only a music lover/audiophile lookind for learn to improe my low knowledge levels and ceratinly too I can't dedide what any audio customer buy because that is his exclusive privilege and no one can does what you states.
Sorry but you are wrong.
R. |
Dear @whart : Normally planar speakers are not high sensitivity and are far away from your horns.
Marbe you can make some research to find out if a planar small speaker can works for you and the Lamm amplifiers working as satellite speakers with your subs handling frequencies from 90hz-100hz and lower. In this way the Lammas will " see " frequencies over 100hz and with out the low bass range you could have headroom to handle the planar speakers.
Other alternative could be the Kerr K300 speakers that comes with a planar tweeter crossing at 1.95khz that means it handle a wide frequency range and along that the K300 is a transmision line design that's has really low distortions neare the performance of planar speakers. So that you can get that immediacy and take advantage too of those subs that will handled the frequency below 80-90hz, sensitivity of the K300 is 89db.
Btw, your Avantgarde are very fine speakers, the distributor here ( not any more. ) was a friend of mine and I had several sessions with because not only in his demo rooms but at his home he has those Avantgarde in his system. very nice.
R. |
@rauliruegas - sorry to have confused things. I am not equating the electrostatic with the horn in any way except midrange clarity. Impedance, amp demands, etc. all different. I do run my original Quad 57s, which I have owned since around 1973-4 in another system in another room, they were restored, along with a pair of Quad II amps that date from 1961, also restored with primo glass in them. Totally different character, but the midrange on the Quad-- oohla,la. And the horn gives me the clarity, with dynamics, and by adding big subs to the woofer system of the Duo, I get bass impact. The thing that really gelled with these was a switch in cartridges from the Airtight or Lyra to Koetsu stone bodies-- bass with body. Who knew? |
What about adding subs to the Quad set up ? Would they integrate well ? |
@inna-- been there. I've had this pair since the mid-70s, set up at one point as a mini-HQD system. I boxed them in 1990 when I bought a pair of Crosby-Quads. I promised myself that at some point I would restore the 57s and when I moved, I had the opportunity. They got shipped off to Electrostatic Solutions, and when he finished his work, they were shipped to me in Texas. I put them back on the stock feet. I'm good with them- this is how I first used them back in the '70s, and learned to listen through this speaker. It's cool to have owned gear for almost 50 years that is still delivering the goods. Not a speaker meant for all purposes, but for what it does well, it's a classic. If I want to go big, I use the bigger system upstairs. That thing can now deliver serious bass, coupled with the horns mid and top and I'm happy.
My experience in the past was not satisfactory in adding woofers. I suspect Maggie bass panels might work, I know some have advocated open baffle designs, or other types of bass augmentation. The old Quad can give you the impression of big bass given the size of the panel, but it isn't terribly deep and won't play loud. It isn't meant for Sabbath, but it's great for jazz, voice, folk, etc. |
I see. They just want to play the way they were designed to play.
Your horns are Lamm tube powered but subs are SS powered, I understand. How would it all sound if subs were driven by tubes as well, I wonder ? And how many tubes would it take? |
Dear @whart : This was my mix-up, sorry:
"
may eventually change out my Avantgarde Duos "
My friend Guillermo has in a second room ( like you ) the 57s and yes .the mid-range is something to listen it, unfortunatelly both extreme frequency ranges are not at the same level. My friend uses an extrenal tweeter/supertweeter.
R. |
Thomas Mayer (vinylsavor.com) has 3 models single ended tube LCR (10K, 14k and 23K euros full silver) and 2 models fully differential LCR (28K and 75K euros full silver) phono preamplifier. Each are custom build to order. All his LCR transformers are Lundahl and Lundahl silver. I heard the his entry level once while I was in France quite some time ago, and could not compare it to anything then. |
Btw, I named my personal unit Essential 3180 because it has at least two
important upgrades from the 3160. All those customers are satisfied
with.
And you know what: unfortunatelly you will never have the
experience to listen/own the 3180. You can't even imagine those quality
high levels. Such is life. This is a textbook example of trolling. 'No-one can get what I got and its the best'... Sheesh. I see people that run junk shops do exactly this sort of thing. |
@inna- the real step forward wouldn’t be the amps on the bass it would be to use horn loaded bass. And for that Avantgarde charges a couple Porsches-- not the cheap ones, either.
That’s why, if and when, I may look elsewhere-- I don’t have room for the Trio in my room anyway. Maybe the Everest. But, then I have to bi-amp and that raises another host of issues in terms of amps. David Karmeli has done it using the older M2 JBL and stacks of ML2s. The Lamm amp isn’t crazy money used. But, I’m not there yet. I do like Avantgarde it’s jut that the prices Euro to dollar as Jim Smith has said, don’t make it easy. I think he quit distributing the line, so he said, b/c he couldn’t do it and lower the price sufficiently to make it attractive. The Duo Mezzo is over 65K. For that kind of money, I’d want more even though I can get an accommodation. We’ll see. I’m not in need yet. Just anticipating that’s the next thing I’ll need to change as the system ages.... |
@lewm side question, which 12at7 you are using on your mp-1 the stock? Have you tried the 12at7-z by any chance?
|
Have you heard the Everest ? Must be very powerful engaging sound with the right amps. "Stacks of ML-2's"...How would Lamm compare to that ?
But, this thread is mostly about super phono stages. What about this ? Would it make sense to go even higher in Allnic line or perhaps in some other brand ? |
@atmasphere , obviously you are way wrong about. Please do not brought your high frustration here and against me.
I already know that you have not the knowledge and skills levels to design a SS unit that not outperform the 3160 but not even it and certainly your designs can’t compete with or with FM Acoustics or Gryphon or any other top SS design.
Even an audiophile that owns your phonolinepreamp makes modification at the SS input stage that outperformed yours one and he is not a SS designer or manufactuerr of audio items.
As the technology you are sticked with you are just archaic. It’s what you showed and shows because is from where comes your way of lif$. I don’t care what you do and I’m posting because you are wrong when refers in that way of my person.
Stay calm, enjoy what the life give you each day. Let your frustrations in home . Do it a favor and please don't come back for more by me. I really don't like what I post here but you obligate to do it. Have fun, is better or maybe this is the way that you have fun.
R. |
Raul, perhaps take your trolling elsewhere. In case you read it, this thread is about tube phono sections, not some solid state unknown as you seem to always push; the one that you have that no-one else can get; that is a cheap junk store technique. Show some class.
You have no engineering expertise by your own admission; for you to declare what knowledge that someone else has whom you've not even met is gross hubris and simply absurd on several levels. You keep talking about your 3160 thingy but its obvious you didn't have anything to do with its design.
Put another way, if you can't get out there and show the rest of us how its done, then sit down and shut up.
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Thanks Ralph, you echo my sentiments. I absolutely detest audio arrogance and absolutism, so unbecoming but even more, irritating. The diversity of opinion and experience is what makes this hobby satisfying. |
I have experience with
tron seven. that's ok very decent 8000++ usd preamp and phonostage.
zesto ultra. I think better more setting capability. it's used in million dollar system locally. and sound awesome.
everything comes down to system integration so.. can't really say it's the best but more like more loading options better internal stepup transformer will be more important. I heard horrible examples and awesome examples of both of the phonostage.. for what's its worth
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Dear @tubegroover : Why stay quiet and suddenly you have a " voice " to post something about.
Arrogance?, far away from there. I only post true facts that maybe you don't like it.
" "
The diversity of opinion and experience is what makes this hobby satisfying. " "
I can see that you can't honor your statement because my posts are my opinions.
R. |
atmasphere : "
then sit down and shut up "
Whom do you think you are? you are only another agon member and nothing more.
""
if you can't get out there and show the rest of us how its done ""
It's not me who needs to show it but you that are an audio manufacturer and I know you can't do it because you have not the adequated knowledge levels with SS designs. I posted that exist, at least , two humble audiophiles that their modifications to your unit at the SS input stage outperformed your design easily ! ! Go figure: just audiophiles ! !
You live in the average audio world and nothing more and your frustration to can't aspire to be at the very top with names as FM Acoustics and the like is what makes you post again and again against me but you know what:
the frustrated man is you not me. Every time you do the same against me you make my day because I just confirm that your frustration levels goes high and high.
This is a free forum but perhaps the best you can do is not read my posts and this way you will not distress that always is very bad for your health. Of course that you always can return " for more ".
R. |
Why don't you both stop this infantile nonsense ? Let us continue the discussion. |
It's not me who needs to show it but you that are an audio manufacturer
and I know you can't do it because you have not the adequated knowledge
levels with SS designs. So I've been making all tube preamps for over 30 years, with two patents in that field, just got another patent a year ago in the field of class D amplifiers, which generally speaking are solid state and employ opamps :) ... We're right now building a run of our beta production class D amps, which are not based on anyone else's design or modules. Just so you know, there's quite a bit of math that goes into making something like that work properly (google 'oscillation criteria'), far more than building a solid state phono section and you're trying to say that you know what knowledge I possess and what I don't. Sheesh. @innaLet us continue the discussion. This thread is about tube phono sections, right? Not a defunct 3160 solid state thingy that no-one can get or has ever seen, right? I do high end audio because I like it, and not for any other reason- that's why I'm here. I'm fine with people not agreeing with me- you and I have not seen eye to eye in the past apparently; that sort of thing is normal on the web. Unlike Raul you don't seem to derail threads on a regular basis or make the thread all about you. But Raul makes false statements, he makes personal attacks and if you don't call him out, other people might think that what he says is real. Do you think his misinformation should go uncorrected? Because we can do that, but this thread won't be about tube phono sections anymore... |
Dear @inna : You are rigth but I was not who started but him who attack me telling: take your trolling.... and many other things.
I have a voice too so I need it to gave an anwser.
Btw, atmasphere I don’t care about class D amps. I was very specific about: design of SS phonolinepreamps. Come on 2 audiophiles beats you in your own design in that SS first gain stage and your next statement is false:
" no-one .... or has ever seen, right? "
well you are wrong you only need to read my response to syntax by coincidence one of the gentlemans that beats your design is an owner of the Essential and an Agoner too. Btw, no misinformation from me but you ! ! Tha's why I need to post about.
Never mind and as I said please don’t read my posts or not post refering tome. Peace.
R. |
Btw, atmasphere I don’t care about class D amps. I was very specific about: design of SS phonolinepreamps. Of course you don't - that would not help your argument. The bigger point here is the need to be right for the sake of it, rather than being factual. While you may 'not care about class D amps' the simple fact that we can make one that is of our own design, and that we can get a patent in the field, is enough for anyone to know that if we wanted to make a solid state phono section, we could and with ease. *****************Back on track: One advantage tubes have over solid state in phono preamps in particular is that of overload due to the electrical resonance caused by the cartridge and tonearm cable (inductance and capacitance in parallel; please ask me if you don't know what I'm talking about here). In solid state circuits, if this resonance goes into excitation (oscillation) the resulting RFI can overload the input circuit. This can result in a tick or a pop, and is part of the reason that many people think that ticks and pops are endemic to LPs. But when a producer makes a recording on LP, he gets what is called a 'test pressing' which he listens to to see if its alright. A form accompanies the test pressing, and the producer has to sign off on it, approving the test, saying that the stamper is good and the LP production can proceed. One of the things producers listen for is ticks and pops in the LP. So when they sign off, its on something that shouldn't have any ticks or pops. If your phono section is immune to the RFI generated by a LOMC cartridge and the tonearm cable, its common to hear entire LP sides with no ticks or pops at all (unless the LP clearly has a scratch). (For this reason, I frequently get asked at shows if I'm playing a CD- I just point to the turntable.) This immunity comes from four things- preventing the RFI from getting in, making sure that each stage can't oscillate (with tubes or discrete devices, a 'stopping resistor' is used for this purpose), the circuit has enough high frequency overload margin that the RFI can't overload it (keeping in mind that the RFI is a peak of 20-30dB) and finally that the circuit does not rectify the RF energy. With tube circuits, if a tube is at the input directly (as opposed to an SUT) the RFI won't be likely to overload it. It might send it into oscillation if a stopping resistor isn't present, but if its there, then overload won't occur. (A fundamental difference between solid state and tube phono sections is where the overload occurs if a strong signal is applied to the input of the phono. With solid state, the overload can occur right at the input. With tubes, its likely one or two stages downstream.) Normally a 'cartridge loading resistor' is used to detune the RF resonance of the LOMC cartridge and tonearm cable. Eliminating RFI from audio circuits can affect how they sound; this is part of why you hear differences with loading vs no loading (although it can affect tracking too). But if you have a tube preamp, its far more common that loading simply won't be needed (SUTs excepted- that's a different set of conditions). Its much harder to get a solid state phono section to behave in this regard since semiconductors have diode junctions in them, and these junctions can rectify RF energy. For this reason, solid state phono sections that don't need cartridge loading are less common than they are with tube phono sections. If the RFI is rectified, this sits in the noise floor- and because of its structure, prevents the ear from penetrating the noise floor to extract more detail (natural hiss is one of the very few exceptions to the ear's masking rule). If your preamp has loading options built-in for LOMC cartridges, its a good bet that the designer didn't deal with the RF resonance. If he had, the performance would be better. So while tubes might be a bit noisier than solid state overall, you can more easily have less ticks and pops which to me is preferable. And as long as the phono noise is less than that of the cartridge tracking a silent groove on the LP, you won't hear it. That's very doable with cartridges of 0.2mV, which is about as low as cartridge outputs go with very few exceptions. |
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@mijostyn IIRC the MAT02 used in that circuit is nla. But I think you can make a MAT12 work. Most of the frame-grid triode family (includes the 6DJ8/6922) tend to have microphonic problems. So you really have to screen them.
|
The OP is nowhere to be found. Maybe he is thinking about getting RTR deck and whatever master tape dubs he can find. Well, at least he should be seeking out direct to disc recorded performances.
With unlimited funds I would do what I previously said - I would ask someone to make me a custom phono stage or at least standard design but absolutely very best parts. |
The OP is nowhere to be found
Likely listening to music. |
I have loved this hobby for decades and 2 years ago finally got my system to where I feel that the failings do not distract me from the wonder of reproducing music in my home at such a level that I can greatly enjoy the experience. I have every now and then wanted to give something back to others who may benefit from my experience and to share our common passion but have not been looking on and participating on Audiogon for a while. And this thread reminds me of why. One person, a legend in his own mind, comes on and preaches and condemns from on high, with no basis for his self anointed authority, and with so much pointed arrogance and aggression upsetting many.
I believe wholeheartedly in what I have achieved but when communicating one needs to be modest, respectful, open to other's opinions as we can all learn and sometimes realise that there is a better path to travel, and willing to tolerate other opinions - all in the spirit of friendship and sharing in what should be an enjoyable hobby.
Which unfortunately leads me to question why one would post and subject oneself to @rauliruegas .
And just to raise the hackles so that I can hear the screech from on high, I love my Acoustical Systems OMNIGON!
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Dear @bluewolf : Good for you that through your post discharged your anger against me. No problem.
Look, in all my audio life my main attitude aim to help all kind of audiophiles through what I learned from other audiophiles and through my first hand experiences.
I have respect for any human been even that gentlemans as you could think the other way around.
I'm truly direct/straigth in what I say trying to help but if ( example. ) I told you through a post or at your place that an item in the room/system is not up to the task I not only tell you something is wrong but why is wrong and when I listen the other part answer sometimes the one that was wrong was me and when this happens or someone post here that I'm wrong far away to been angry I really appreciated that and ask to him why I'm wrong and this manner I can fix my mistake kearn and improve my audio/music knowledge/skills levels.
I will never told you everything is fine with your system only to be " frendly " because if I do that way then I'm not helping you but only that attitude goes against you.
No one likes that other person puts his finger where " damage " the more our each one self steem.
About you phono stage unfortunatelly is not a good one and certainly can't justify its price.
That unit is a copy of a very old French design the (Anzai) SRPP phono preamp, pity for say the least. The gentleman from where you buy/manufacture in that design was a copy-cat.
Never mind, is only for your records. Enjoy it.
R. |
C-47 Accuphase. Balanced and single ended inputs. Adjust loading etc. from your listening seat. Its predecessor was the closest device we have measured to a SWWG.
I've never heard the atmasphere phono product (I heard a set of their mono amps decades ago and liked them) but note it also uses balanced inputs. I reckon it is a fully balanced product like the Accuphase.
If you are afraid of RF and EM noise have Benchmark Media make you up a set of their (balanced) cables. Take a look at the video on their site about their cables versus regular cables concerning noise penetration. I'm sure they would work with the atmasphere product also. |
Dear friends : Overall there is no single advantage on tube alternative over SS good designs specially with phono stages that's the worst place to use tubes and for very good reasons. In the other side the " tale " about those " tick and pop " is just that a tale that can't be proved it happens. Please read this thread from where I learned why is only a tale/false/misinformation: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/a-question-of-loadingRegards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear
rauliruegas;
I am going to answer your attack on Thoress Phono Enhancer & myself;
1. you said Sic *
Thöress is in reality a parametric equalizer with many faults no matters what the owners post in sites as WBF and the like.
This statement is absolutely wrong ( in fact is total rubbish). it is definitely, Phono Stage with highest calibre , with the facility to offer
more versatile on-the-fly adjustment of the phono equalization curve. There is 3 rotatory knobs
You can leave them in default
(clearly marked) positions to use a standard RIAA equalization and never even touch them. If you want to change the sound using this facility, you would not degrade the sound , as, it is using a net of resistors ( in this case the ultimate resistors AN TANT SILVER) & at any balance or adjustment , only 3 resistors , which , is the same for the standard RIAA.
2. A. * Sic* Audio Note silver parts are not guarantee of anything about quality level performance.
I agree with this statement.
B. * Sic*
but only a " candies " for poor knowledge level people, same of those " paper on oil " caps that were used in the radios 70 years ago and the Tantalum named. All those are a kind of BS marketing and nothing else
I found this statement to be a rather general & only come out from people with big mouth & lack finesse in sharing thoughts & opinion . in my view , it is total BS.
3. * Sic*
About the silver wire I can tell you that in my system all the electronics external power wires connected to the electrical source are KCAG by Kimber Kable. I’m not talking inside the electronics but the power cable
So, It is okay for you to use Silver Power cables & in this case you are right. Or you are suggesting that silver is only for power cables. I do not know what , I can say. But words like hypocrisy & / or BS.
4. *Sic*
""" you must have a valve or tube in the signal ( in at least one component) to get this beautiful sound """
This is actually not only my opinion, but, opinion of some of the best known names in Audiophile Community e.g, Mike Freeman, has the same opinion
*Sic* Which beautiful sound?
I am not going to waste your time & mine on this subject. However in short a beautiful or good or fantastic sound , whatever , adjective you like to use, is the sound , which , meet the needs of the listener.
5. *Sic*
First mistake in the unit you are talking about is that is not a true balanced design but single ended
Wow, what you are talking about here. Some of the best sounds are only single ended e.g, Audio note. Balanced or single ended depend on the design , its execution , including the parts .
This sweeping statement , usually mean...
6. *Sic*
All what you posted is only bla,bla, bla. and we music lover/audiophiles needs some facts so where are the specs at least of the inverse RIAA eq. deviation and noise levels as frequency response.
The product is not fully built yet ( only few weeks for final version) . Prototype , with the basic components sounded Fantastic. the specs will be available , I expect after the final production.
7. *Sic* Certainly something wrong with its other designs because in the new one decided for hybrid one.
Thoress Phono Enhance is Hybrid Design from the beginning.
MK1, MK2 MK3 & the new Silver Signature are all Hybrid Design. Please, check your facts , before attack.
8. *Sic* 75K for that equalizer? come on and ve serious.
Well , you are right to question this price. However, the cost of any finished audio component , which is not a mass production, involve the price of design, components, manufacturing costs ...etc. if the cost of components is 1000US$ , it usually , translate to 8 to 10 K, RRP
The Price of resistors & Silver Caps is more than 25,000 plus US$. still ,all silver wires . all phono input ( 11 pair ) pure silver.
8 StillPoins Ultra 6 ( in Germany , they Cost more than 10000 US $. please, do the Math
9. *Sic*
Btw, do you read the FM Acoustics link I posted ? if not do it you a favor and do it and please download its data sheet at the end of the link pages. We all need to learn, including me.
I agree,
We all need to learn, including you
FM is a brilliant Company with , long history of excellence.
I listened always to FM System in Munich Hi Fi Show, 2018 & 2019 ( Marriott hotel) 7 although it sounded good, I preferred my own system. I know it can sound better , as many Hi fi Shows do not produce the best sound. please , see , the thread in this discussion by syntax2. *SIC*
I got a invitation from an Audiophile to listen to his FM Acoustics System... 223 Phono, the biggest preamp and FM mono amps linked to Grand Utopia Speakers. Turntable was Techdas AF1, Graham and Techdas Cart.
It was not a pleasure to listen to. Very analytic, aggressive, pale ....far away from a real thing reproduction. But each his own .
I am sure, it might sound better if he uses
KCAG by Kimber Kable as power cable
Enough said
Fawzy
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Dear @issak121212 : First than all it was not an attack to that phono stage, just an audiophile opinion.
Obviously it's a phono satge, it handled the inverse RIAA eq.
What is totally BS are those " paper on oil " caps .
About silver wire what I'm trying to say is that's it's not something to " die for " when I use even in power cables. Silver wires is very good choice any where we want use it.
Beautiful sound is the one that "
meet the needs of the listener. ". That's your opinion, mine is the one that meets MUSIC reproduction needs. So a " little " different.
SS can do that in a way better than tubes when we are talking of phonolinepreamps. We not nonly not need tubes for that but we have to avoid tubes on that specific and very special application/job.
I know very well the Audio Note Ongaku On that I listened in my own system several times. As a fact over 10 years I was a tube lover ( from somete years now I'm a MUSIC lover and that's why I choosed SS to do it. There is no return. ) and listened/owned from Jolida to Audio Note, you can name it and can be sure that I listened.
Now, everything the same SS or tube designs but in special with phono stages balanced is always a superior alternative.
Yes, my mistake because I took a very fast look inside the unit and I did not see those FETs. Sorry.
Of course I need to learn more and I'm always willing to do it. I know very well the FM Acoustics quality level performance ( listened many times as a fact FM was my reference in phono stages. ) and is obvious that you prefered your own system but that is a subjective and not objective opinion and as you I have no time to go deeper in this issue. Btw, syntax is not a good reference not for FM Acoustics and for other audio subjects. You can read my answers to him in this thread.
Btw, M.Huber is very emphatic not use any other cables but the PIT by FMA.
Here what Huber says about balanced phono stage design :
By design, all phono cartridges are balanced sources.
The term "balanced" describes a system in which the
audio signal is transferred via two shielded
symmetrical conductors, neither of which is
connected to ground (see Fig. 1). (For general
information on balancing consult Technical Bulletin
No. 31).
In an unbalanced system one of the signal paths is
carried by the shield or is exposing the signal to the
ground carrier. Because of this, interference signals
such as hum, RF, noise etc. are picked up by the shield
and can thereby enter the audio circuitry. The lower the
signal level and/or the more ambient interference
present, the greater is the danger of degradation
allowed by an unbalanced (single ended) interface.
To this day the interconnection of phono cartridges
has been done "unbalanced" (a few pseudo-balanced
phono preamps are available):
ANY DISTURBANCES THAT MANAGE TO
PENETRATE THE GROUNDED SHIELD WILL
ACT UPON THE TWO ANTI-PHASE SIGNALS
IN THE SAME WAY.
AS INTERFERENCE REJECTION IS OPTIMAL
THE COMMON MODE SIGNALS ARE CANCELLED.
CHASSIS AND CHASSIS AND
TONEARM SYSTEM GROUND
Fig. 1 THE INPUT STAGE OF THE FM 223 HAS AN EXTREMELY HIGH
IMMUNITY ( 100 dB!) TO ANY NOISE AND INTERFERENCE THAT MAY BE
PRESENT IN THE SHIELD AND GROUND SYSTEM.
Considering the extremely-low signal levels of cartridges, it becomes obvious that a true balanced
signal interface to the preamplifier is a huge
improvement over presently available designs.
Unfortunately, such an elegant system was always
faced with a number of technical challenges.
In the FM 223 these limitations have been overcome
entirely.
The FM 223 is the only phono preamplifier which
assure true balanced interconnection of cartridges*.
Fig. 1 shows a balanced interface. Such a balanced
interconnection of the phono cartridge has major
advantages:
- increased dynamics
- higher headroom
- elimination of non-musical signals (interferences)
- lower hum and noise
- etc.
The signal lines from the cartridge are directly
connected to the true balanced input stages and have
no connection to the shield. Thus, the shield can
function optimally, conducting all interference signals
directly to ground. The ground, of course, must be
separate from the electric ground of the circuits (in
many other so-called "balanced" products this is not
the case).
*True balancing requires more than just XLR connectors on the
preamplifier's inputs and outputs. It is the interference rejection
ratio) that defines the accuracy of balancing and with it the
suppression of disturbing non-audio signals. This is one of the
characteristics that exemplifies the tremendous difference between the FM 223 and other so-called "balanced" phono stages.
Thank's to take your time with your post. I will wait that your unit be finished to look for those main specs.
Btw, why hybrid if you are a tube believer?, S.Farkland designed the all tube WaveStream Kinetics phono and for tubes it's an achievement.
R.
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Raúl is like a broken record. Best Audiogon time was when he got banned...... I guess, he was so desperate in his real life he begged the mods to come back...
Always his “religion”, his “knowledge” which isn’t’ a knowledge to move something in a better direction and the difference now is based on his age ( he is high in his age and his ability to listen and to understand is very limited. It never was good but now it is replaced with promoting data sheets from whoever.....
“knowledge” transfer from Mexico .... a pain for brain.... |
A broken record playing backwards ! At least he stays away from WBF when he can post on Audiogon. I'm surprised how much trolling he gets away with here, meanwhile this post will probably be removed. Go figure ! |
You really have to hear Allnic. |
Anyway you slice it... (whether it be pure tubed, SUT/tube, FET/tube, and yes even with some solid state devices, etc... ) I truly believe that we should try and remember that we, as vinyl lovers, should all feel thankful and blessed that we have so many great and talented designers who are able to provide us with a plethora of fantastic options that are available to us at so many different price points that it allows us all to have the opportunity to be able to enjoy the great sonics that vinyl can provide :)
As to the question of what is the "Best Cost No Object ’Tube’ Phono", I don’t understand how any one person would be able to know the answer to that question without being able to hear each and every option out there, in their own system, trying to keep all the many variables to a minimum. Likewise, I do not understand how anyone would be able to categorically deny the worthiness of a component that they may have never even heard in their own system, simply because of a certain capacitor, wire, passive/active device, etc... that is being employed. I’ve always believed that the worthiness of a component is a combination of the entire circuit design and the sum of all the parts working together seamlessly vs just one sole aspect of the component in question... not to mention the importance of system synergy.
However, I believe that we can all certainly give "suggestions" as to what we would consider as being "contenders" to being the best... as I do love reading about peoples experiences with brands that I haven’t had the opportunity to be able to hear myself :) We are all individuals, with our own set of ears, with our own unique way of hearing sounds. We all have our own set of listening preferences and sonic priorities. What is important to one, may not be to another. But, what we all "mostly" have in common is the love of music and being able to reproduce that in our homes :)
I have no idea what phono stage could be exalted so high as to carry the Title of being The Best Cost No Object. However, in the spirit of offering a "contender" to the list, I would suggest the Wavestream Kinetics Deluxe Phono Amp. I have admired Scott Frankland’s audio design work (phono, preamps, amplifiers) for decades but was never in a financial position to afford them. However, over the last couple of years, I have suffered 5 unexplained strokes and have recently been diagnosed with two cancerous tumors. I have come to realize that we may not get any mulligan’s in this game of life.
So, on Feb 17, I placed a deposit with Scott for his Wavestream Kinetic Level 5 Reference phono amp. His phono amp has always been on my "bucket list". It is an all tube design currently using (2 x 12AX7, 4 x 6DJ8); with extremely low noise ( I believe with the external power supply, noise is below 1uV (one-millionth of a volt ); providing 3 front panel selectable inputs = two MC at 62 dB of gain (without the use of SUT’s or FETS) with a useful cartridge range of 0.2mV to 1.2mV and one MM output at 42dB (you are able to choose your MM gain or you can have 3 MC ); having both balanced and RCA inputs and outputs; adjustable loading available on the back panel via custom loading plugs; and an essentially flat RIAA EQ curve within one tenth of a dB (.1dB) from 3 Hz to 40 Khz. *** The above specs are from the best of my recollection - if you have interest, please consult with Scott Frankland to confirm. He is wonderful to communicate with. ***
I have not received it yet, but I can certainly say that I am very excited to be able to hear it in my system. Scott is not only an excellent and talented designer, but is also a true gentleman and what I believe to be an asset to the audiophile community.
Wishing you all the very best of health, love and happiness!
Don
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Dear @syntax : Seems that you like masochism, always return for more but this time just re-read my posts to you in this thread for you can increment your frustration levels that you love it !
I'm always willing to give you what you like but not this time. Was enough.
Enjoy your day.
R.
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