Best cost no object tube phono

Hello there: I came across this thread this morning, after a sleepless night fussing about the "new" Pass Labs XP-25 I installed yesterday into my system. I hope this thread is still alive. My question concerns the XP-25 phono stage, and what I am perhaps doing wrong with it, because - contrary to all the glowing reviews - it does not should good. I hope some of you Audiogoners have a personal experience with this instrument, and can tell me where my problem might originate.  here is some background:

I use a Linkwitz LX521.4 loudspeaker pair, which produces an extraordinarily deep soundstage with pin-point accuracy of the instruments, singers, percussion, etc. on that stage. The late Siegfried Linkwitz was a good friend and my wife and I spent many delightful hours at his home listening to his latest creations, of which this one is the last (https://www.linkwitzlab.com). I bought the speaker kit from Frank Brenner in Germany, together with his integrated Powerbox amps (https://www.linkwitz.com), and built the speakers myself using the precisely matched SEAS cones. There are two central points to the eprformance of these speakers: first, they are open-baffle designs, where the peculiar shape of the baffle creates a circular sound wave between the front and rear of each speaker. Second, each speaker cone is driven by its own dedicated amplifier after the signal is split up in an active crossover (part of the Powerboxes) to match the optimal response curves of the individual speakers (4 channels/ 6 cones). Moreover, the Powerboxes (one needs one for each channel) are integrated with a DAC and preamp. The result is first of all fatigue-less listening and seamless frequency reproduction. I use a MSB CD transport and DAC (Platinum Signature), which does a fine job keeping the digital information sounding as "natural" as it gets; I use the analog signal from the MSB DAC, bypassing the one in the Power Boxes. My analog end is a ProJect 10 Carbon tt with a Benz-Micro LPS MC cartridge (37 Ohm inner resistance). And here's where the rubber meets the road: my first phono stage was a Lehmann Black Box SE II, which came highly recommended by Mr. Fremer. It sounded fine and gave me some idea what my speakers would be capable of in terms of staging. And it was completely quiet! But reading through many blogs and other Stereophile recommendations, I decided to have Dave Slagle build me a custom-wired SUT (1:15 all copper) and use the Lehmann in MM mode. Expectedly, that gave me more of everything: larger images, wider (but not deeper) soundstage and a fuller midrange. And yet I still had this strange modulation in the highs (my wife calls it "buzz") which to me sounded like a load/impedance mismatch of sorts. Especially soprano voice (I am a Callas fan) came across almost shrill in the coloratura passages.  So, I was happy to I read Herb Reichert's review about the Japanese Sunvalley SQ1616 tubed phono stage (https://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-42-sunvalley-audio-sv-eq1616d-phono-equalizer) and its sound characteristics. Maybe a tubed front-end was the solution. So I purchased a brand-new unit from the Canadian importer Victor Kung, who equipped it with a German set of NOS Telefunken tubes and a large ELROG ER274B rectifier (by itself a $1,200 item). In any case: the sound was a two edged sword: the soundstage became even deeper and the performers, whether opera, orchestra, or Pink Floyd appeared with very sharp focus, almost holographically. In this sense this little wonder showed wonderful synergy with the LX speakers. But: there was a distinct and persistent  hum, regardless where I would put the ground lug from my TT. And on top of it, the sharpness in the highs was now even more emphasized. Bummer! So I kept reading about the other phono stage options out there, which would not need me to takeout  a mortgage on our house. So the Ypsilons, CH Precisions or FM Acoustics, even Boulder were out of the question (for now, at least), but two others came up consistently in various fora and reviews: Audio Research and Pass Labs XP-25. I remembered the AR from a previous Rocky Mountain Audio Fest, where I found it too "sharp" for lack of a better word. The Pass, on the other hand, had consistently great reviews and J.R. Boisclair of WAM Engineering, who helped my with the proper set up of my Benz cartridge, called it spectacular, using one in his own rig. So, when a used XP-25 came up on US Audiomart, I went for it. It arrived two days ago, and the seller wanted me to try it out before either paying for it or sending it back. The two-box unit looks new and the contacts are shiny. So, I replaced my Sunvalley/EMIA combo with the XP-25 and .... it hums! One of the things all reviewers pointed out was the "complete silence" of this phono stage, but this sample has a low, but distinct hum, no matter how I ground the TT. That was a real downer, but even worse: my priced deep and articulate sound stage collapsed. First, I felt moving in the concert venue from y favorite row 12 to row 5, but even so, the soundstage stayed between my speakers, and did not open up behind it, leading to a wide rendering of Callas' occupying the entire center, almost like a cut-out. What the hell is going on here? I am lost for ideas. Now, the XP-25 allows for almost countless permutations of resistance- and capacitance loadings in combo with three gain setting, and by spending several hours of switch-and-listen, I came up with a setting that eliminated the "buzz" in the highs, however, again with a cost: the sound is now much "thicker" and also too warm, making a soprano voice sound almost like a Mezzo. Anyway: I am sorry for the lengthy contribution to this exquisite audience, but you know how it is once you fell into the Rabbit Hole: I literally could not sleep last night, pondering what I might have done wrong or overlooked. So, please, help!      Happy Holidays!

Reimarc, You need an in-home evaluation by another experienced and knowledgeable audiophile. Your story is much too complex to be addressed by anyone who hasn’t been in your listening room. I assume Dave Slagle knew you were using a cartridge with a 37 ohm internal resistance. Because pairing that with a 1:15 SUT is tricky. Of course, now you are presumably not using the SUT with the XP25. And your issue is not with the XP25 so much as it is that you are surprised the XP25 did not cure your pre-existing problem(s). Can you boil down your lengthy story to one or two sentences? That usually gets better results here. By the way, no one "needs" a $30,000 and up phono stage, like any of those you apologized for not being able to afford, in order to enjoy noise-free vinyl.

Good grief reimarc!

Might be helpful to start a new thread and keep the concern short and concise.

I lost interest in reading midway thru.

@reimarc

I’m surprised / impressed you able to balance the 16g LPS on a ProJect arm, but this is probably a case of too much cartridge for your deck.

I have an LPS in my collection and felt it wasn’t a great match for a SUT - I’ve tried several, all ratios. My phono stage is a VAC Renaissance (internal SUT), which makes all my OTHER cartridges sound by far their best (especially with a better matched outboard SUT), but the LPS is the odd man out here. I would indeed be looking at an ARC Reference if I were tying to optimally match the LPS. I can hear many things the LPS does well on my Graham Phantom and Hagerman Trumpet MC, and it’s great, but not quite up to the levels I can reach with other cartridges (including lower Benzes) on my VAC phono.

The lower Benz Ebony L and Zebrawood L (not the Ruby) models are far, far easier to work with because of their normal body weight and low impedance coils with a good output level. And they sound wonderful! They’re stellar with a SUT in the range of 15x (Zebra) - 30x (Ebony). In my system the Ebony and Zebra get lots of play, while the LPS simply rests waiting for a better phono match - which quite honestly may not be happening anytime soon (I don’t have any room for both an ARC and the VAC lol).

TLDR; you should have got a Zebrawood L with 0.4mV output and 12 ohm coils (not the ruby-plate Zebra, the iron-cross one)

Problem with an LPS into a 1:15 SUT is you end up with the cartridge seeing a 209ohm impedance. That could audibly attenuate treble, assuming a 47K ohm load resistance across the phono inputs, but Reimac was not complaining about that. The mismatch would not cause excessive hum or noise.

@lewm 

Yeah, no ideas on those 2 weird issues he's having. Just pointing out that his pairing of the LPS with other gear made me think "woah, I wouldn't do that".

@reimarc 

Since the hum has been in two phono sections so far, I am suspicious they are not the problem. It might be that there is a problem with the tonearm cable and/or wiring. Or it could be an issue where the phono section is too close to a hum source like a power transformer from an associated component. I would certainly test these possibilities before proceeding with any other equipment!

https://ariesceratespana.com/pages/talos-mk2-ref-phono-stage/

I bet that's expensive, given the pretentious descriptive passages on the website.

What it might sound as an unfair comparison, I own a Manly Steelhead and when I compare it my CH P1 (one for each channel) with two X1 power supplies, I can’t stop getting amazed on how well the Steelhead sounds.

Yes the CH P1 is better at everything and would not replace it with a Steelhead, BUT I cant stop to be amazed at how well the Steelhead sounds.

Following some advice from some users here some guts were replaced with better quality, but not much, which transformed the Steelhead for the better.

The Steelhead is $10k ($10800 with the modification), the CH about $90k and I have no problem listening to the Steelhead all day long. I just wish Manley did use a few better components and not be cheap in a $10K phono stage, but my hat to them specially since this design is pretty old.

I wander why the Steelhead is not mentioned more often since it is a USA product.

I wander why the Steelhead is not mentioned more often since it is a USA product.

Some guesses:
It’s been around a long time without any superficially visible new versions. The ultra high-end segment seems to love either "brand NEW version Alpha Centauri Mk MCXIII SE+ Prime Sigma RED, only {$$$MEGA BUX$$$}!", or really really vintage. Also $10K is no longer attention grabbing in the ultra segment, and yet it’s too pricey for most ordinary folk. Are there even many Manley dealers anymore? They seemed to be a lot more available and talked about in hifi circles in the 2000s.

It also tops out at 65dB, which is a bit low compared to some other ultra phono stages’ 70dB+. I wouldn’t want to run a 0.2mV on 65dB. Personally I like to have 70dB on tap.

I’d still love to try one someday. It was a tantalizing fruit, well beyond my reach when I first got into vinyl.

$10K is not cheap. The build quality is very decent but some capacitors in the signal path could be upgraded. I’ve done so in mine. No preamp on earth is worth $90K. I don’t care how many chassis’ are needed for stereo. Steelhead is frequently mentioned here, so I don’t know why you think it’s under the radar.

Mulveling, if 65db is not enough gain via the MC inputs, you can use a SUT into the MM inputs. And since you can have anywhere from 50 to 65db gain thru the MM inputs , plus the voltage gain added by a SUT, there is absolutely no cartridge on earth that has too low a voltage output for the Steelhead. I have run my AT ART7 with an output of 0.12mV via the Steelhead with no SUT. I am currently running my Ortofon MC2000 into the MM inputs using a pre preamp to boost cartridge output.

''The best'' assume comparison in the sense of ''quantification'':

''All x are Fx & Gx''. If there is one x which does not satisfy

conditions F&G than the statement is not true.

Who has inspected  ''all cartridges'' (Raul?).