Best cost no object tube phono

@no_regrets can I inquire what the price is of the Wavestream Kinetic Level 5 Reference phono unit?

@rsf507 If I remember correctly, Scott had said that the price for the Wavestream Kinetics Deluxe Phono Amp has remained the same since 2013 at roughly $9000. This is just another testament to the great character of Scott Franklin... to keep the price of admission the same for this fantastic piece for the last 8 years, all while making continuous improvements! Especially when you see other manufacturers increasing their prices every year, outpacing the rate of inflation by leaps and bounds.

The current Wavestream Deluxe is actually in it’s Level 5 Reference iteration. Levels 1-3 were 5 tube configurations offering 60 dB of gain. The upgrade to Level 4 changed from 5 tubes to a 6 tube circuit using 4 x 6DJ8 & 2 x 12AX7. He said that there are several benefits over the previous 5-tube circuit....

1. Reduced crosstalk between channels gives more precise localization of images in complex material. The crosstalk was due to the shared 12AX7 in the 5 tube circuit.

2. Increased headroom allows bigger peak inputs without compression or harshness.

3. High-frequency bandwidth is extended to 50kHz. This improves leading edge transients (high-frequency detail, speed and air).

4. The output impedance has been reduced. This helps to cancel the adverse effects of cable capacitance and amplifier impedance. By the same means, the load presented by the RIAA network is isolated from the outside world.

5. Upgraded signal coupling caps provide better definition and a more natural tonal balance.

6. Both power supply regulators have been improved to optimize transient response.

I believe he said that the previous 5 tube units can be upgraded to the Level 4, six tube circuit with an upgraded audio board, numerous parts and power supply upgrades for about $2850. You will want to confirm this with Scott.

The current Level 5 Reference also now has an outboard power supply which I believe reduces the already impressive noise floor even lower.

I’m really excited and looking forward to having this as a major part of my vinyl system.

Wishing you all the very best of health, love and happiness!
Don

In the other side the " tale " about those " tick and pop " is just that a tale that can't be proved it happens.

Sure it can. I have to admit though the first time I encountered this it had me floored. That was a bit over 30 years ago. Since then I've seen it plenty of times.


There's plenty of sound engineering reason why this happens. The electrical resonance between the LOMC cartridge and the tonearm cable can be a peak of **30dB**. If the cartridge is making 0.5mV, this means that the peak could be half a volt! Many phono sections that can handle a LOMC cartridge will simply be overloaded by that much input. In solid state preamps in particular, the RFI can be rectified at the base of the very first stage of gain, resulting in a burst of noise for a very short period of time- a tick or a pop results from the circuit being overloaded.


This isn't hard to prove; we can inject a 0.5V RF signal at 1 or 2MHz into a preamp and see what happens. Often it isn't pretty. The idea that somehow this 'can't be proved it happens' is ridiculous on its face.

I've never heard the atmasphere phono product (I heard a set of their mono amps decades ago and liked them) but note it also uses balanced inputs. I reckon it is a fully balanced product like the Accuphase.

@ivanj It is, and has the distinction of being the first balanced line preamp made for home use back in 1989. People don't think about it as so weird now, but back then people looked at the MP-1 crosseyed because it used XLR connections for the phono input.

@rauliruegas 
You don't "distress" me, you irritate sometimes Raul. This is a thread about tube phono stages, and you have come here to provoke and promote your holy grail SS phonostage ! It is your usual modus operandi, you like to promote some idea or concept of perfect sound that has captured your attention at the time, like your long fascination with MM cartridges. Often using long quotes from other people. You always make claims of absolute truth, and then change your mind a year or two later, it just gets tiresome. Discussing with you is like fighting windmills, you have unlimited time, and little sense of proportions. When you repeatedly get banned from forums, you should start wondering why !

Dear @kps25sc : I don’t promote " your..SS phono stage ".

SS did not captured my attention " at the time ".

I started my audio life with Japan/USA SS electronics ( Crown, Pioneer, Sansui, Luxman, Denon, Mckintosh, etc, etc ), then and due that I started to read " underground magazynes " I switched to tubes because reading on those magazynes " convince me " that no other alternative can outperforms it: at least is what said it there.

Years latter and after I learned I returned to SS electronics but now not because audio magazynes " high experts opinions " but because I learned by first hand experiences and no return to tubes never again.

The MM adventure was a re-discovery of a decent cartridge alternative that because those " underground magazynes " was a " sacrilege " to listen through any non LOMC cartridge.
This adventure was and is truly learning and I can tell you that 2-4 of those hundreds of vintage MM/MI/IM/electrect cartridges are good enough to compete not with your LPS but even with higher quality LOMC cartridges.
Today the 70% of my analog listening is through top LOMC cartridges but always I left mounted/set up the top of the top MM/MI cartridge because it’s really good and a pleasure to listen its little different sound signature. What’s wrong with all that?.

Learning is the audio name of the game. Not to stay sticked for ever because as in the day by day life everything is changing and sometimes for the better and that’s part of my day hunting and always willing to learn from any gentleman even from new comers.

I took those " long opinions " from other gentlemans when necessary with the subject I’m talking about when other opinions coincide with mine or that are from by point of view came.

Btw, I provoke the wbt " banned " on purpose and I let to know it to gentlemans that through the wbt inside private emails gave me their support to follow posting and told that I don’t wanted anymore to stay where the owner is " hunting me " and few days latter I posted something to and that’s how things happened.

Curious, here in Ago moderators are unbiased gentlemans that do not post in the forum and in wbt exist " hundreds " of moderators that their main characteristic is that are gentlemans that post and post really often in the wbt forums: they are audiophiles, audio distributors or the owners. All those gentlemans are heavy biased in favor or against several things and even they have audiophiles under " their protection ": untoachables. There when some one " cry " because one word in a post that post is deleted or reported to the owner whom just banned that gentleman.
Here you can cry all what you want it but if any one don’t insult directly with a untrue insult you can’t be banned.
In wbt lagonda " insult " all agoners ( including you. ) when posted that " low knowledge levels here " and you know what no single Agoner but me ( and there are many Agoners posting in wbt ) puts a " stop " to lagonda. Where was a moderator about in wbt?

I posted in other forums, important ones, where on purpose you have not some one " behind you " like my first hand experieces in wbt .

Btw, I respect your opinion even that I disagree with many aspects of what you posted to me. In the other side, I read that your dream TT is the AS2000: really?

R.

lagonda: "" as on Audiogon where the level of knowledge is a lot lower. ""

I can see that your prefered Phono stage is the I/O. I already posted about.

R.

Btw, I provoke the wbt " banned " on purpose and I let to know it to gentlemans that through the wbt inside private emails gave me their support to follow posting and told that I don’t wanted anymore to stay where the owner is " hunting me " and few days latter I posted something to and that’s how things happened.

What actually happened is Raul violated the WTB posting rules (by making personal attacks on other posters), that after having been banned 7 years prior. His re-reinstatement lasted about 2 weeks.

Raul, the real magic in audio happens somewhere between listening and measuring, that is why so many audiophiles love tube phonos, for the engaging sound !

Dear kps25sc :  ""   them to have the same patience as on Audiogon where the level of knowledge is a lot lower.  ""

That's what you posted in wbt, yes you are Lagonda and not disclosed when I named here, pity for say the least.

In that wbt thread you " posted " /agree with what Bazelio posted:


""  Raul, please continue to come to WBF and inject your viewpoints. The "ad print" (not) was relevant to the discussion and very interesting to read. At times, WBF tends to "rathole" off topic in its threads. Typically the thread starter (or tima) requests order and folks fall in line. Don't take it the wrong way or let it dissuade you from providing unique perspective. Feel free to open new threads as spin offs to start new conversation to avoid derailing existing threads as well. That's all.

 Reactions:howiebrou, mountainjoe, Lagonda and 2 others


Btw, those " reactions " are people that are in agreement with that post. Is the way wbt function about.

Your " reaction " to my post against what you posted about that Agon member to low knowledge levels was an : agreement with my answer.

In the other side your amps are SS not tubes and seems to me that your up-dated/improved Maplenol TT is superior to the 2000 that you like it, this one has almost the same problem than the vintage MS ones.

R.

Raul when i "like" a post in WBF, it can mean i agree, it can also mean the poster has made a good argument even if i don’t agree , i also generally "like" any post from people responding directly to any previous post from me or anything made with a good sense of humor. I am a very generous with my "likes" they don’t charge me extra for "likes". I certainly stand by my comment about the knowledge level on Audiogon it is generally much lower than what you see on WBF, here its all about this is better than that, and what budget equipment is a "giant killer", and a lot of characters with budget systems claiming ultimate knowledge about equipment they have read an article about. On WBF a lot of very polite people try to educate each other in a humorous way, and a lot of them are manufacturers, reviewers and very expensive system owners. I consider David Karmeli the maker of the AS 2000 TT a good friend, that has helped and guided me on many occasions and his TT is definitely my favorite Turntable, i have personally never heard a DD TT that delivered the magic the way a old school heavy platter air-bearing TT does, i like LT's too, David hates those, we don't agree on everything. I find an occasional thread on Audiogon that i find interesting, but in general i just don’t have the patience for the way things often progress here, we all have our preferences !

Dear kps25sc : I don't know  why you insist in something you can't prove it. Tomorrow I will give you a list of Agoners where several of them have even higher knowledge levels than you and all at least at your not to high ( as you could think on you. ) knowledge levels too. 

In the mean time you obligate me to re-link what I already posted here. This link on a wbf interesting thread where the OP is one of the wbf " champs " with high knowledge levels that you said in your last post:

"  and a lot of them are manufacturers, reviewers and very expensive system owners. I consider David Karmeli the maker of the AS 2000 TT  "

Even I received wbf private emails by very well know gentlemans down there with a warning about not " touch " Carmeli because he is to agressive in some of his answers with some posts.
WBF has him as an " industry expert ":

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/thorens-goldmund-reference-turntables-european-expressions-of...

please read starting with the post 53 and look for his responses and mines.

What happened down there: first I did not learned nothing from him and his " touted " knowledge levels were in evidence that are not to high as people ( like you ) in wbf can think. At least was what he showed in that thread in that specific audio subject.

In the other side, you can read each single of the different threads where I posted and you can see that no gentleman there " defeated " my so so knowledge levels.  No I'm not brag about, facts speaks by it self. Btw, you partuicipated in some of those threads.

So, then what you are talking about and insit in something that  you can't prove it ( as I did it. ) then you are posting a lie/misunderstood/false or named as you wish.

I think that you can't diminish the gentlemans in Agon one and again when you have not the level to do it.  With out doubt ack could do it, one of the best down there and I know for sure that he ( even if could be true that it is not. ) never will post something similar not only about Agon but any other internet forum.

Did ask  your self how I took in count that you was lagonda?, no no one told me.


R.

Raul, audio is not a contest, nobody wins or looses and i have never claimed great knowledge, the absolute truths you are looking for are subjective qualities for most of us, we like something, or we don’t, sometimes measuring helps, but often you get subjective better sound with something that does not measure "the best ". I don’t see you writing much about music, it seems audio is a comparative/competitive sport for you. Some of us love the music, and don’t care how we connect to it, as long as we do, again probably why many people like tubes. Don’t bother with a list of knowledgeable people posting on Audiogon, i know there are some, but the general direction of this forum is on a much lower level than WBF, and there is nothing wrong with that, you like educating willing participants with you knowledge , this is a good niche for you. As for figuring out i am Lagonda, kudos to you, but i am probably the only one in the whole world with MBL speakers and Martin Logan Statement subwoofer towers that also uses a old Maplenoll turntable, how hard was it ?

Dear @kps25sc : Of course is not a contest and I posted exactly that in wbt, here was only an example that the very high knowledge levels there that you think and insist on it was not enough or not showed in the several threads I participated.

Of course too that I'm a music lover and audiophile not only because I own 0ver 6K´LPs and attend very often to live events ( ovboiously not in this hard times. ).

"""   and very expensive system owners... ""

Yes but money even that's important and helps  to build a room/system the main issue with any audiophile is his true knowledge levels and skills, this is the main subject that with out the rigth levels that money  can't do it nothing. A good example is a gentleman that is an analog newcomer ( the  OP in this thread. ), he has money but almost zero analog knowledge levels and his to fast and different choices and changes " day by day " almost are were big mistakes.

Now, several owners of those wbt " expensive systems " not even turn its " face " to look humble cartridges as the ART 9XA that outperforms or at least at the same levels that their very expensive ones. Again, not adequated knowledge levels.

In the other side at one time all of us, no matters what, where audio new comers that some way or the other need it advice/support to learn and grow-up and in Agon comes several new comers looking for help but in forums as wbt when a new comer looks 300K-500K systems just were " intimidated " for and don't post there.

Audio forums are places to learn and support any kind of audiophile looking for help looking for advice. I know several of the gentlemans in wbt and several of their post helps for no body and helps to almost nothing. Humor is not the main reason exist audio forums.

As I said it was not who lost nothing not trying to help tomeny audiophuiles that need with " urgence " down there.

I always try to help and always I'm starigth in my coments/opinions no matters what and certainly no matters if one decided to banned from that forum.

My aim always is to share my first hand experiences that comes through many years and that comes through the learning lessons by several great audiophiles and MUSIC lovers with very high knowledge levels.

I'm not biased or entilted ( as many gentlemans think. ) to any audio subject, I'm totally biased with MUSIC and nothing more.

R.

""   Don’t bother with a list of knowledgeable people posting on Audiogon, i know there are som3....""

there are not some but hundreds, some don't post to often today as in the past but you can invite any of them to participate in something you want to learn. Here only a few of them with their monikers and that I know are not posting in wbt. In no importance order::

quiddity, t-bone, tonywinsc, kirkus, dgarretson,dlaloum,fleib,timeltel, frogman, dover, fm-login, wynp, almarg, catcher10, fcrowder rushton, vetterone, eriksquires, grannyring,ferrari275,lewm,fleschler,mosin,cyny123,alexberger,ramtubes,berlintas,mijostyn,luckyx02,cal3713,bdp24,dougdeacon,tobes,jlin,richardkrebs, cd318,oregonpapa, etc, etc,

and as I told you there are hundreds of them with many with superior knowledge levls than ack or gentlemans of  his caliber at wbt.

" No contest "  and all willing to help.

R.

@rauliruegas  Al (almarg) and Roger (ramtubes) have both passed on, RIP.

Ralph's(atmasphere)  and Mike Levine's names should definitely be on that list !

@kps25sc : "  and that I know are not posting in wbt  ""

R.

Dear @kps25sc :  Carmeli posted in wbt:

" most elusive elements of reproduction are bass, sense of space and portrayal of scale to get right if you want "natural" and this is where the 3012-r is unmatched by any other tonearm I've owned and heard. Everything is just right with this arm. "  ( including vintage internal wiring. ).

Tango 500K+ system has mounted more than one 3012  along SAT ones

Several other high knowlegedg$$ gentlemans " die for ". Go figure.

R.

I have SME 3012R mounted too Raul, a wonderful arm with the right cartridge, it does something really right in the bass, not too analytical, very musical. My Maplenoll LT arm with a front mounted silicone trough on the same TT digs a little deeper but is also more analytical, i alternate depending on records. Tango has gotten rid of the 2 SAT arms he had, he prefers the 3012R and his SAEC 508 on his favorite TT the AS 2000. He also owns 3 other top tables, but almost never uses them after getting the AS 2000, he also has almost every top cartridge. I trust his ears ! And he has a great sense of humor !

I suggest a conversation with Tom Vu at Triangle Art. He will help open your eyes (and your ears). I have his cell phone number if you can't reach him through normal means. His P200...all I have to say until you hear it for yourself. Not inexpensive, but you did say the best and cost is not part of the equation...just hope the TT and, especially, the cartridge are up to muster...Tom will direct you there, too!

I forgot: neonknight, antinn, tomwh, millercarbon, cleeds, loahnimal, rodman999, billstevenson, david-ten, moonglum, bluewolf, larryi, rgordonpf, eldartford, sdrsdrsdr, has2be, stitrain, etc, etc,

Dear @kps25sc : I don't know from where comes out the bass range that you or carmelli/tango touted as " natural, very musical..."

Very musical is an atracttive audiophile adjective as " natural " but both expressions means only added distortions. Your SME/LPS combination puts the resonance frequency at 7hz ( same as the tango combination . ). Other than that the 3012R has a lot of not good enough design characteriscis that latter on SME fixed through its now " old " 5 model.

The only home audio alternative that can puts all of us truer to the recording in that  3012 " touted " bass range is the digital alternative that's the must natural one other than the live MUSIC.

Then, that some of you like the same kind of high distortions levels those not means is rigth as carmeli posted.

Main advantage and main difference between analog and digital ( everything the same )  belongs to the bass range in favor of digital.

The 3012 wbt episode was exactly as a " stampede " when one start to run in panic ( no panic here. ) followed for hundreds of similar audiophiles and when one audiophile ask to other: " hey why are you running? the other says: never mind don't ask and keep running.

As you said: "  we all have our preferences ! "

R.

The stampede was towards a affordable arm that performed subjectivity as good as the high priced SAT arm at 1/10 of the cost. It was purchased on faith for a lot of us, but would not have been keepers if it had not performed well. Digital has in my opinion never gotten the treble, and rhythm right, it is in my opinion never as engaging as really good vinyl. As for bass yes digital in general has the number on both channel separation and lowest octave, but in the very important mid-bass region vinyl just sounds more natural and engaging with the right equipment in my opinion, with the gear i have heard, and with all those other disclaimers. I do think audio choices are very system and taste dependent, there are no absolute truths, or measurements that tell the whole story.

@kps25sc : Seem to me that maybe the op will not come back to his thread.

wbf: I read for the first time all the Peter/OP GC thread that I posted here the link and obviously re-read my posts there and all the posted answers to and found out that even that I really " push " hard and " crushed " with real explanations why the 3012 was and is a bad tonearm ( of course that you posted there too. ) no one in the stampede including the one that started posted nothing in favor of the 3012 or against what I posted.

The OP was " shocked " for what I posted about his 3012 and with nothing to argue/say because he never read it in that forum nothing but only " glorious " posts in favor of the 3012 ( all subjective ones, no facts. ) and I noted his anger looking for some one of you ( members: tang, david, you or some one else. Btw, David posted something in agreement with me about a cartridge issue. ) gave him some kind of " support "/hel because he felts alone and with out arguments in favor of.


You posted here on the 3012r:

" that performed subjectivity as good.. SAT...."

when any audiophile use the subjectivity word ( as you did it. ) the dialogue is closed and always the gentleman that uses that word is rigth because it’s not a fact but only a subjective opinion and no one can argue against that other human bean subjectivity.

Exactly as here:

"" Tango has gotten rid of the 2 SAT arms he had, he prefers the 3012R "

Tango has no facts that can explain in objective terms that superiority ( only good humor. ), as you posted: " he prefers ", subjective, end of the dialogue and:

End of the wbf episode.

R.

Raul when i like  a product after hearing it and keep it, that trumps any argument against it from someone i don't know on the internet, sorry. And that nobody bothers discussing with you on a thread in WBF could also mean they don't want to bother fighting windmills !

What did you not understand : " end of wbf...?

Yes, this is a free world and you can go on and on on your " windmills."


R.

You mean you are finished quoting yourself and other people from WBF in this thread about " Cost no object tube amps" ? Wonderful !

kps25sc : ""    quoting yourself and other people from WBF in this thread ""

    It's incredible because with out " touch " you in this thread your first post here was a direct " attack " to  me:


""  At least he stays away from WBF when he can post on Audiogon.  ""

and when I gave you an answer to your " no sense " post and mentioned that some one with a lagonda moniker in wbf ( I don't brought here wbf was you. ) insulted to Agon community you will followed posting and don't disclosed that was you and this is dishonest for say the least. That's what you showed here, at least I'm not dishonest or a lier.

Even that you just followed and follow, maybe to have the last word. Good.

R.

What moniker i use in another forum is really none of your business Raul ! You really are like a Chihuahua with a bone !

Insult the Agon community using your moniker ( in other forum. ) it's. Shame of you.

R.

You insult the whole audio community with your every day antics, Perro ! That is why they keep kicking you out of forums !

Btw, I enjoy to stay laug but for respect to Agoners I recomend to you try to stay calm and forgeret of your personal problems..

R.

Waste of time and energy, bye bye Raul  !

I am very interested in the FM Acoustics 123.  However, I wonder about the gain settings, either 46 dB or 56 dB for the 122 (assuming 123 is about the same, I couldn't find data).  For which cartridges would these settings be optimal?  Perhaps, such figures are meaningless and not comparable with other manufacturers.  I notice that most manufactures offer a setting in the mid 60s dB range, which would be suitable for many of today's top cartridges.  I have a variety of cartridges, turntables, and tonearms.  I'd probably have in mind to use EMT OFD 15, 25, 65 & JSD with FM Acoustics...to easily take advantage of the EQ curves, as I have many 78s.  But for this kind of money, I would really like to have a solid state unit that can be used with a great variety of cartridges.   I also own Lyra Etna, My Sonic Labs Signature Platinum, Ortofon SPU Century, & Benz LPS, each of which would appear to need more than 56 dB of gain.  My solid state system is Accuphase C3800 and A46, both of which have flexible gain settings.  As such, I am optimistic about being able to get sensible volume levels.  As such, I am really asking experienced audiophiles about how important it is to optimize gain between the phono stage and the cartridge.  I would really appreciate any insight.  All the best, Mark

I thought this was a discussion about phono stages.😉
I like certain parts of wbf in particular the science based and acoustics section.
Wbf does go a tad ‘I spent a lot so it must be good’ Audiogon tends to try and compare £50 bargains with £8000 components and say it’s better... 

Don’t know why web designer made this huge QUOTE button above the dialog window if some of the oldest audiogon members still have no clue how to use it ! And their huge passages are impossible to read, impossible to understand with those pieces of text from other people passages they are using.

When you quote someone, please select fragment of text you like and then click first button above your dialog window:

it will help us to read a quote, OK ?

At least we can separate quotes from actual post, very easy !

Dear @mcmprov : Great cartridges youown. Normally FM can gives you the unit with higher gain but I?m not totally sure.

The best you can do is tocontact RM here: 

https://www.fmacoustics.com/contact/

R.

I'd probably have in mind to use EMT OFD 15, 25, 65 & JSD with FM Acoustics...to easily take advantage of the EQ curves, as I have many 78s.

@mcmprov Do you have cartridges with 78rpm styli as well? The larger stylus makes less noise in the groove!

Thanks Ralph.  Yes, I have the EMT OFD 65, and the Miyajima Infinity Mono 3 mil for 78s as well.  Aside from noise, I'd worry that the wide grooves of 78s might mess up my microgrove mono cartridges (OFD 15 / 25, Miyajima 1.0 mil).  Anyway, you might be pleased to know that I also have the AtmaSphere MP1...I'm your customer from California who asked for the mods so that I can use reel to reel tapes (IEC / NAB).  I should send my unit in for an update to the latest version...when funds permit.  I hope all is well, and I really appreciate the insight you share on these forums.  All the best, Mark

Thanks Raul.  Good to know.  That will be great it they can customize the gain.  

@rauliruegas Thanks for bringing to our attention the member from WBF who goes by Lagonda (kps25sc over here). As you well know, he is a major besotted disciple of the guru over there. As you also mentioned, seems like Lagonda had the temerity to state that there were more experienced members on that forum...LOL!

Dear @mcmprov  : I think that your Accuphase can gives you over 20 db of gain, so 76+ db of gain with the added FM is way enough for any MC cartridge.

""   how important it is to optimize gain between the phono stage and the cartridge.  ""

It's important because if the cartridge output is to high can overload the phono stage, fortunatelly today almost any decent PS has very good overload levels.

Now at the other side of the gain " range " the trouble we can have to use the phono stage volume wide open is that noise level could be a little higher but this trouble certainly you just have to forgeret because does not appears with those two very good SS designs: Accuphase and FM Acoustics that develops really low noise levels that you or any one can't detect under playing conditions.

In reality you and your cartridge quality level performance will be totally safe about that issue mentioned by you.

R.

kps, certainly you like to show and confirm the stupidity levels:

"  the place people go when they get kicked out of WBF. First Raul, ""

I don't came here because I never left Agon and I'm an Agoner way before wbf exist as a fact I was there before by an expressily/specific wbf invitation.

Btw, your touted " high knowlege levels in wbf " is not what you showed here and there and that's your high frustration, distress and anger.

 be happy and return to that cage.

R.

Yes Davey you and Raul might have been invited, but where obviously also disinvited on several occasions. You have a grudge against WBF and expressed that grudge in the Wilson V thread as late as yesterday, that why i commented on your previous shenanigans. I did sign up to Audiogon with kps25sc, back in 2007 for buying equipment, long before joining WBF, but did not post in this forum until much later. I can post in both forums, not like you ! I do prefer WBF by a wide margin, maybe because they sanitize it from classy people like you and Raul, you two obviously belong together !