Aurender

I can't speak the the I2S issues raised by the OP, but with regard to the AES/EBU interface being limited to 192khz/24 bits, that is because that is the limit according to the AES/EBU specification.  Due to this limit, Dual AES was developed to support higher resolutions.  While you can of course bypass this limitation by using USB, some DACs seem to perform better with AES.  At least, that has been my experience, using an Aurender N20 with a dCS Bartok.

just like any aspect of the hifi system building game, people speak about their journey, their experience, their system -- with a certain baseline of expectations, skill, experience and budget

people find happiness and excellent sound at many various levels of expense and expertise... that happiness is found at modest levels of system building is a blessing for those who achieve this, while others may push push push, with ever more effort, learning and expense trying to achieve ever higher levels of sonic quality (as they perceive it) ... there is no right or wrong either way, we all enjoy the pursuit our own way, subject to our time, energy, wallet, and disposition

i think the key is no one should judge where anyone else is on the journey and how they achieve musical happiness, how they spend the money and effort and the sonic result achieved... if you are fully satisfied with a bluesound node with an added lps, power to you - but don’t tell others that if they have a grimm, an innuos zen or a roon core+optical rendu that theirs isn’t better (and vice versa) ... let’s just celebrate that everyone can find their ’happy place’

@baylinor 

I appreciate the invite. I would love to connect with you and listen to your amazing system next time I visit Austin. My point of engagement was not to cast doubt on what you’re hearing with Node 2, which is a great performer for the money and even better with upgraded power supply. Bottom line, if you’re satisfied with what you’ve put together then it shouldn’t matter what else out there. 

I used to own Vault 2 so I can say from my experience, Aurender streamers offers a substantial upgrade in sound over Node albeit at higher price of admission. Streamer is just one piece of the pie, so one needs to ensure your rest of the system is up to the task. My impressions of Node vs Aurender are in the context of my system (listed here under my moniker). 

You’re welcome to stop by next time you’re in Houston. 

@lalitk 

It's a deal!

Lots of beautiful equipment in a very nicely treated listening room. I would be a fool not to take you up on the offer. I don't go to Houston often but will let you know when I do. Take care.

Great topic, many valuable opinions, Thank you!

I have an N20. I also have the Holo May KTE DAC.

I can say without hesitation the Aurender Conductor App has been a very good experience. I owned a Lumen D2 and the Naim Streamer DAC solutions prior to my current setup. In both cases, the Conductor App has been more intuitive and reliable, IOS and Android are prevalent in my home, neither have been an issue.

Finding the right combination Aurender settings an interconnects has been the challenge. With all the variables (DSD to PCM, AES, USB, LOW Pass Filter, Upsampling level options, etc..)  It is literally picking a lock! I have purchased many different interconnects, all very good. I,ve found many times sound quality depends on the recording, not the Conductor settings or interconnects. 

I have spoken to both Tim at Holo and Ari at Aurender, great guys, experts in their respective verticals, but hesitant to recommend a comprehensive setting or interconnect configuration.

I am not technical, the science is too broad.  There is so much content and expertise on this thread. If anyone cares to potentially narrow down a couple best in class settings to recommend, I would really appreciate it, I.E. Low Pass Filter Setting, DSD to PCM or not, upsample or not,  interconnect, etc...

Much Appreciated 

@mkdm11

I enjoyed my time with N20 immensely (paired with EMM Labs DA2). I believe N20 holds a sweet spot if you can utilize all of its brilliant features. As far as settings goes, my recommendation would be to play with each setting and keep what sounds best to your ears. The same applies to digital output, AES vs USB. All of these choices are subjective…I guess my point is it would be a shame to not explore all the features on a transport like N20 :-)

When I had my N20, I did not prefer any upsampling or DSD conversion. I had my N20 connected using both AES (for files upto 24bit/192kHz) and USB for DSD’s. Another thing I really appreciated was CLM (critical listening mode) in N20. It further drops the noise floor and allows you appreciate quiet passages and space between instruments.

Use best digital cables you can afford. And lastly, if you have not yet; tweak your Ethernet signal with a passive filter from Network Acoustics’s ENO or Muon. They will further relax the sound and take off any digital edge or grunge.

I intentionally held back my feedback on one of the most important feature of N20, the clock input. PM me if you are curious about the master clock input. 

Would you please share rest of your system?

Lalita,

Thank you for the response/insight.

I don`t domuch upsampling, I am having better success with NOS at the DAC (44k) via USB. THE Aurender is set similarly at basic levels.  (I guess thats where my confusion originates. (Tons of options,, basic sounds best,, concerned I am overlooking something). I have AES "Front Row", USB AQ Coffee and Nodost SPDIF. From the Modem Small Green Computer to Fibre, back to ethernet to English Switch, AQ Vodka to N20.

Pre BAT REX II, AMP PASS XA60.8, 2 REL S510`s, Paradigm Persona F7, All Frey 2, Equi-Tek power conditioner.

Ted Smith, the PS Audio engineer/designer/educator cleared up my I2s misconceptions.  Paul has promoted I2s as being superior because of the shared clock..at least this was my interpretation of what he said.  Ted explained that USB and I2s are processed the same.  Any clock signal supplied by I2s is ignored.  The main downside to USB is the noise created by the power running parallel to the data line.  I contacted Tim at Kitsune HiFi and it seems that USB/I2s are handled by the Holo the same way.

op

we can use any hard drive as per the teac ripper it doesnt add much to the cost and having a ripper can be nice addition.

Carlsbad you do need cpu horsepower to run roon the aurender cpu is not capable  of running Roon got that directly from aurender at axponna a few years ago.

it is not a matter of performance some of the worlds best servers run Roon including the $35,000.00  Taiko Extreme the innous statement the 432EVO servers 

all of these products are cores and endpoints in one 

Dave and Troy

Audio intellect nj

roon server experts

@lordmelton with all due respect, from two of this threads contributors, it was my understanding that using a NAS defeated the main premise of Aurender’s proprietary “signal” path. I don’t think what I said was “incorrect” as you put it but if you’re ok with how Aurender handles its signal chain then this may be your component. For me, I don’t need or want proprietary built in HDDs. I like the flexibility of a NAS, and not something that’s proprietary. So like I said, I’d look elsewhere, and Lumin fits fits my needs if I wanted to throw more money at this situation. For now, a Node with an external linear power supply, a great digital interconnect, my DAC and a NAS gives me audiophile bliss. What’s wrong with that?

@ronrags ​​​​​​Why you telling me? I don't care.  Better addressed to the forum.

My Aurender had no problem finding my Vault and PC on the network

“For now, a Node with an external linear power supply, a great digital interconnect, my DAC and a NAS gives me audiophile bliss. What’s wrong with that?”

@dinov

There is nothing wrong with the your current system. But your previous statement on Aurender being not NAS friendly is inaccurate. My Aurender can access music stored on its internal drives or as well as external NAS on my network.

@lalitk thanks but let’s just agree to disagree. 

@dinov Thank you for sending me SEVEN notifications that I had corrected your inaccurate and grossly misleading post.

Aurenders can utilise NAS, but as I said internal drives sound better. I have 4000 CDs (FLAC & WAV) and a few hundred SACDs on a 4tb SSD removable internal drive and it’s only half full.

If you are content with your system, enjoy and good luck to you, nobody is disputing that. However there are continuously 4 or 5 threads enquiring about Aurenders - that says something.

@vonhelmholtz 

As said previously I have explored I2s in depth and I wouldn't get hung up on it and think you are buying into older tech such as USB, AES and SPDIF.

The USB powerline interference has been mitigated by DACs using Amanero USB Boards, which receive power directly from the DAC's power supply, not from the host via USB cable.

I use electrical tape to tape over the +positive line at both ends. This prevents EMI/RFI interference and stops the wire acting as an aerial, if you only tape one end. Don't tape the -negative line as this is the ground. Many instructions online.

The Amanero Board is why USB can outperform AES/SPDIF in many systems, various manufacturers use standard and modified versions.

@vonhelmholtz 

You may be interested in watching this video from Suncoast Audio where they discuss all things Aurender with Ari Margolis - he is the face of Aurender here in the states. It'll bring you up to date on Aurender and what they are doing, including why they use their own proprietary software, best sounding outputs, etc. 

(13) In Stereo with Mike & Rick - Episode 4 - Ari Margolis with Aurender - YouTube

I've owned an Aurender N10 for four years now. I can say that the Conductor software is very easy to use and I've really had no meaningful problems with it, just works every time. So for the few users who have had problems, I wonder if it is not with the actual machine itself or some other issue? My dealer has/had nearly all the different models in stock and I don't ever remember him having a problem with one. To be forthcoming, I've only used Aurender streamers in my system. I've also played with several DACs that have a streamer built in at my dealers shop, but none of them, even the top $$ tier brands don't have a user interface that is as useful or as easy to use.

I've followed along on the Taiko threads on a different forum. At least one member, who has both the Taiko Extreme and an N30 sold the Taiko as they enjoyed using the Conductor software more on the N30.

A note on Roon, I know a person on this forum that can use both Roon and Conductor and they prefer Conductor. Also, there's a thread, again, on another forum, that is about the different updates to Roon. Apparently, each iteration of Roon can be different sounding and some much better than others. Though Taiko uses Roon, they are in middle of an upgrade to their own XDMS software, and all users in that forum that have tried both Roon and XDMS say that XDMS is far superior.

+1 @pokey77 on the Aurender N30SA over the Taiko. There are a few other threads on other forums that cover this. Not only does it sound better, the N30SA costs $10K less. 

@pokey77 

Thanks for the info.

Roon can exhibit functional issues due to seemingly minor network issues.  For example, don't use a smart switch unless you know what you are doing.  Perhaps, some Conductor users suffer the same fate.

Roon musicality claims are all over the map.  I wonder if this can be traced back to Roon Core implementation.

“Not only does it sound better, the N30SA costs $10K less”
@blisshifi

Have you compared Taiko running on XDMS with N30 in your system?

@lalitk Unfortunately no, when I did compare it was in someone else’s system and Taiko was running Roon. At that point the units have the same level of body and natural delivery (which is significant compared to any other streamer / server I’ve ever heard), but the N30SA had better clarity and separation. Maybe XDMS puts the Taiko up a notch, but for a $10K difference, I’m wondering if the SQ improvement from the software alone would justify the price difference.

What I would also say is that while I do have the N30SA, it is hooked up to the T+A SDV 3100 HV Reference Streaming DAC Preamp. I’ve spent a lot of time comparing the two, and it is really close. The N30SA does still beat the SDV’s streamer just ever so slightly with body and detail, but I have to try really hard to tell the difference. I’d like to try hooking up a simple fanless NAS, thinking of getting a QNAP HS-264 to try, putting one of my SSDs and a linear power supply to connect via Ethernet into the SDV and compare it to the N30SA’s local library. If the SDV is close, that really makes it a killer unit as its preamp and DAC sections are also the best I’ve ever heard.

And again, in full transparency I am both an Aurender and T+A dealer, so feel free to take my comments with a grain of salt despite these being my honest convictions compared to all other gear I’ve heard. 

lalik innous servers ajrun an older inferior processor so they are having Roon issues Sense is much less resource intensive.

432EVO uses a much newer and more powerful processor then Innous also unlike Innous we run Roon in its own core on the cpu

it took frederic vanden pool the evos designer five years to develop a totally unique operating system designed to run Roon properly

Fredeic is a master linux programer

so his operating system actually employs three cores of the processor.

One core runs Roon

One core runs machine operations

one core handles music files all run on a fast yet low noise processor.

combine this proprirtary operating sstem with great hardware you can produce a superior sounding Roon server.

Dave and Troy

audio intellect NJ.

US importers 432EVo music servers

@blisshifi

You’re probably right! If I am faced with the decision to pick between Taiko + XDMS with marginal gains over N30SA, I am very likely to keep the $10K savings.

The T+A SDV3100 scenario you shared is what I find most interesting. If you have to try really hard to tell the difference between SDV3100 streaming client and N30SA, then my hats off to T+A. But I know there is little bit more to the story, the T+A interface for Qobuz / Tidal is not very user friendly (you can’t have it all, right). A close friend of mine who owns SDV3100 actually prefers Taiko over SDV3100 internal streaming client.

You gotta love the subjective nature of our hobby :-) I do appreciate your candid feedback, thank you!

@lalitk I would agree the UI for the native T+A streaming platform isn’t as mature as Roon or Conductor, but I would anticipate that knowing T+A hasn’t been a company completely dedicated to designing digital sources like others have. Of all the platforms out there, Roon is my favorite one to use, but in my experience it’s not always the best sounding. The Grimm MU1 and Taiko SGM are two that are truly exceptional with Roon. Pink Faun is up there as well. 

@blisshifi

Pink Faun has developed fully customized OS called Euphony Stylus. The end users can switch between Roon and Stylus depending on one’s preferences in playback quality and UI experience. You can also add Merging Technologies +player to above list. The implementation of ROON in their +player is just as remarkable not to mention the adoption of RAVENNA which allows streaming upto DSD256 over Ethernet.

The Suncoast Audio video was informative. They clearly stated that streaming services, streamed internal and NAS are processed and sound the same. All files are loaded to cache and played locally from cache. Given that some of you can hear a difference suggest that some difference in background processes must exist.

They clearly believe that the N20 is the sweet spot, but that the N200 is the best transport value for USB only. The choice depends upon how your DAC handles USB vs coax/AES.

All of the transports, except the battery powered W20SE have been updated within the last couple of years.  All now have transformer isolated ethernet inputs and the newer lower powered Intel chipset.

This video was a really good Aurender sales presentation.

@lalitk Nice to know about Euphony Stylus on Pink Faun. I recall when Euphony first came out there was a lot of chatter about how it sounded better than Roon. I have one friend that still uses it, but I never personally owned a hardware solution that ran it. Thanks for sharing. 

@vonhelmholtz Yes, while the streaming processes and protocols may be the same, the quality of the power supply, clock l, and isolation in the design of the circuits and components (isolation overall by chassis, isolation inside across individual components, etc) are the main reasons why each unit sounds the same. 

@blisshifi 

Just to make sure that I understand..The better clock is integral to providing the ultra low jitter Coax/AES output, but is not central to USB output, thus for USB only the N200 is sufficient.

@mkdm11

My replacement Holo May DAC KTE will be here on Wednesday. I’m interpreting your post to say that AES/Coax vs USB performance is very close With the Holo. If this is correct, then USB would certainly provide you with the added ability to listen to high bitrate PCM and DSD, but given the fact that you are struggling with interconnects, my interpretation of your remarks might be off.

I used to own a N100H and a separate CD transport which to me sounded great. In the interest of going to a one box solution, I picked up an ACS10 which I run via USB into my Holo Audio May. The Conductor app allows me to flip between Tidal and my stored music easily and seamlessly. I use a dedicated iPad as my interface and scratch my head at why anyone would want a subscription to listen to music? The cost of the iPad is half that of a lifetime Roon subscription so it makes perfect sense (screw using a phone!). The sound is fantastic and Ari has always been very helpful whenever I have questions. I couldn't be happier! 

@vonhelmholtz To respond your assumption, the answer is "typically yes, but not always".

As oddiofyl mentions, he still prefers the coax out from the Aurender to the USB. While the higher end Aurenders have even better clocks, the N200's coax may still be better than the USB interface to your Holo. You would have to experiment and decide.

Sometimes, but rarely, even with USB, some DACs can be set to prefer the internal clock of the source vs in the DAC. Very, very rare.

And in the case of T+A DACs, both the SDV 3100 HV and the DAC 200 both have some masterclock functionality built in, so it still optimizes the clocking coming in from the Aurender when using coax/AES.

And again, with the N200 vs the higher ends via USB, what you are still getting in the other units are a more robust power supply and better isolation that will give you additional tonal density and clarity. I would say something like the N20 would give you more body and meat on the bones in the same way your new phono stage does, where as the N200 will sound just a bit leaner/neutral. The N200 gets very close to the N20, but there is still an audible improvement in the N20 (say 20% better) but at double the price. The N20 is the sweet spot for near end game at its price point, but the N200 is probably Aurender's best unit for price/performance ratio.

@falconquest

I use Roon to broadcast to my 2 channel and 11.2 rooms. Others have many other Roon endpoints. For me, this flexibility would not prevent me from moving to Aurender/Conductor, but it is a consideration.

@blisshifi 

Just to be fair, I was not implying that the N30SA was better, I've never heard the N30SA or the Taiko. But I have read at least a few that have gone on the record saying that they preferred the N30. My impression on the two compared is that they are more similar than not. With the $10k+ savings on the N30, and the fact that the software is fully dialed in and easy to use, the N30SA makes solid logical sense. -blisshifi, I appreciate your comments.

@vonhelmholtz 

I think with the exception of the W20SE, all other Aurender streamers have been updated or introduced in the last two years. The W20SE was introduced in late 2019, so isn't all that far beyond the newer streamers.

BTW, I love T+A gear. Heard it many times and it came down to my second choice. Love the looks and the sound quality. The SACD player they have is amazing and it has a built-in streamer that sounds amazing. But the software, at least last time I heard it four years ago, was very poor operationally. I hope it is much better now. But this is certainly where Aurender shines in having such a seamless and easy-to-use software interface. And not only is it easy to operate, it has phenomenal sound quality as well. 

@pokey77 Your stance is accurate. I wasn’t implying you yourself had heard the two and had a preference, but was just acknowledging the sentiment between the two. Both are exceptional and endgame. While I had a preference sonically for the N30SA, one’s system synergy might sway the decision. But I do also agree that Aurender is a simpler solution in terms of usability. Glad to hear of your affinity for T+A and as above acknowledge your sentiment on their software interface. I would say that despite any lack of maturity T+A has over a more mature platform, it is nice to adjust most settings like DAC filters, preamp source display names, etc for many of their units over their mobile app. 

I have two N100H for my two systems. One feeds a Devialet 220 Pro to Raidhos X3. The Devialet has all kinds of inputs for streaming.: Ethernet, upnp, spotify etc.. The Aurender is so much cleaner it is hard to believe. So II bought one for that system. In the other, the Aurender goes to a Denafrips Pontus USB. 

One of the two units, cloned from the first one, had a stange bug of filling its queue by repeating the playlist. The USA team , Kelly and Ari, did not let me down and had their team in Korea work on it in remote mode until it was fixed. 

Also, I like their conductor app which accesses Qobuz beautifully. i mean the sound is indistinguishable from the same song on the hard disk, in Hi res.

I just whish they could access Apple Music internally like Qobuz. Maybe some day.

I have the Aurender's USB connected to my RME DAC which I use in a headphone set up.  The RME doesn't care about the source clock, it uses it's internal clock for all inputs

Keep in mind thats just a USB 2.0 cable, nothing special.   I think my Lab 12 does sound better via coax,  I haven't A/B 'd the two extensively,  could sound better with a purpose designed USB audio cable , not sure.    Like everything,  it's all subjective 

I'm holding off on any further cable purchases until I get my new pre.    I just picked up some DH Lab Air Matrix Cryo RCA and they are super high quality .  I will eventually pick up the DH Labs USB and revisit .

I am really loving my N200,    As lucmichaude said, stored content is indistinguishable from the original.   Support from Aurender is great too... Im glad I stretched my budget on this one , it's such a slick way to stream, and store music.  

Agree with ofdiofyl, the upgrade in sound is noticeable. Something I wasn’t expecting with N150. <was using modright oppo205 with cd collection and bluesound to Musical Paradise DAC; now using Aurender to Musical Paradise DAC.

The Aurender now comes with free 2 month trial to use ROON.