As much as I try, I just don't get it........

I tried to ask one why he thought we could hear what it sounded like.  Apparently my comment lost something in translation, because he thanked me, profusely.

@millercarbon has ears made of tin

" how can you seriously argue that sonic characteristics can be accurately conveyed through a budget recording made with dubious mic placement and streamed over WiFi?"

Probably where the confusion lies, as I don't believe that's what's being argued. I think everyone would understand they are making an extrapolation based on what they are hearing. You guys are holding to absolutes and others, cognizant of the limitations, are still finding value... value, not accuracy, not a replacement for live demo, not even close, but useful information nonetheless. Like many arguments on AG, there are valid points on both sides, and neither is wrong.

@eganmedia has it right, IMO. Do the mics in the video capture a sonic difference between the three different speakers? Sure, especially going from the stand-mounts to the full-range. But what's lacking is the character of those changes, aside from the floorstander sounding fuller and more recessed, and the Focal sounding brighter. But the clip tells us nothing about the image presented in the soundstage (I'm listening through Audeze LCD-Xs). There's no information about the depth or height of the image, where the instruments are placed within the soundstage, the tonal differences in Adele's voice, or the piano, from speaker to speaker. I've always assumed that audio demos on YT had zero value from an audiophile POV and I'm quite surprised to hear people on this forum advocating for them. If you're the kind of person who spends substantial sums on power cables, cable risers, TT cartridges, digital transports, and hi res files to get the absolute best performance out of your system, how can you seriously argue that sonic characteristics can be accurately conveyed through a budget recording made with dubious mic placement and streamed over WiFi? I'm dumbfounded that people here whose opinions I highly respect seem to think so.

Daj says:

Nice. To me, this blows up the argument of uselessness.

The fact that the mics are better than a camera mic moving around the room doesn't mitigate the fact that Rode are, at best, "meh" microphones.  Nevertheless there is a baseline established and maintained.  That's a step above.  But the placement of the mics lets you know how each of those speakers sound off-axis only, not what the on-axis sound is like at what would be a typical listening position.  Even with a single set of speakers A/Bing them miked from the position shown in the video with mics placed at the apex of a triangle typical to a home listening setup would sound at least as different from one another as multiple speakers miked the way they are in the video.  Position those same mics like that on an electrostatic speaker and it would sound absolutely nothing like how it would to a person in the sweet spot.  At the distance in the video most cardioid mics are still pretty beamy and the distance between drivers of the floor standing speakers will definitely affect what gets picked up.  The stand mounted speakers look to have their drivers more or less equidistant from the microphones so they might well have the advantage of less phase cancellation.

Come to think of it, geoffkait's Teleportation Tweak was years ahead of schedule.

It could improve the YouTube sound, too, I guess.

MrD,
I can't agree more.  There are persons who legitimately believe they
can discern differences in audio equipment over the telephone. This is as bizarre as it gets for me.  YT is no better, how many variables and how many times has this been bisected. I'm sorry, but for all the bloviating about you must hear this piece in your own space and now suddenly anyone putting up vids on YT can influence you...OMG.

That's not to say that I enjoy some of those vids!  Have a nice evening.

Regards,
barts 

+1 isochronism  

What do you think of the *comparative* nature of this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0YkKlEMe8w 

Nice. To me, this blows up the argument of uselessness. To say it's useless is to miss the point. I believe there are plenty of examples on YT where audiophile SQ is indicated and can be distinguished from non-audiophile SQ. That's "indicated" not ascertained. The point is obviously not definitive evaluation. It's one bit of information where the alternative may be no information aside from specs, opinion, visual, etc. 

I'd say that video disproves "By the time you hear a recording of a component or loudspeaker on Youtube, all that's really left to judge critically is how it looks". To me, this is a misunderstanding of what's on offer by way of a YT vid.

I'd go for the Rubicon 6s BTW.

I am a YT creator (small time). My channel is about audiophile and coffee related topics. I agree with the OP. YT is not the place for serious sound evaluation. Here is another thought though. It is my only way to give people a sense of what it sounds like. Even if it’s not ideal, people really appreciate it. I do always explain that it is useless. It will not sound like in your room. But compared to no sound impression at all, it is still better. Also, with so many serious audiophile shops dissapearing (some countries are really poorly stocked with shops) it is a way, for those people, to get some experience with different equipment. So don’t dismiss this method yet. That said, I don’t believe YT is the medium for serious evaluation of dacs or powercables or... Just my two cents

So .... the only way to witness how good the Zenith picture actually is (through the commercial) you need a TV at least as good as the Zenith. Their pitch is that it's the best! You need to buy one just to prove them wrong!! 

When I was young in the 60's, and my Dad and I would see a Zenith Television commercial. The spokesperson would say "look how sharp that picture is" showing their newest model. My Dad sarcastically comment's to me how great is certainly is.. (on our old 16"" black & white)

I do find some of these recordings of speakers playing in spaces to be interesting. I don't expect to hear something great, but I am surprised at times how well it comes through, how little room coloration seems to be degrading the sound. If I'm hearing good tone with extended smooth bass and sparkly highs from microphones placed at the listening position it tells me there's got to be pretty good sonics happening in that room. I've also felt at times I could hear the sonic signature of the speakers interacting with the room in a way that was quite compelling, like a very pleasing filter effect, making the same song file played straight through my speakers seem somewhat on the dry side. I don't expect to hear differences from things like cables or pre-amps. However, if they did leave every setting and microphone and speaker placement the same and level adjusted to 0.1db, it would be quite interesting if someone could demonstrate a difference a change in amplifier or cable made. That would prove that something very significant had changed.

At best, you can say there is a difference, at worst you hear no change.  Audiophilia as a hobby is an experiential voyage.  The best and final place to make certain a change is great is your own system at home.  The second best place is a dealer showroom that is not crammed full of speakers in the room.  If you want to purchase your system from your armchair it is a crapshoot at best.  I have seen so many well-meaning aficionados bamboozled by changes in sound, not better sound.  Online auditioning represents the worst of this practice.  Again, find a quality dealer and trust him.

I appreciate all of the feedback. I did make a point stating there are many YT videos I actually enjoy listening to, and yes, YT is a great way to learn about new and unfamiliar music. However, if anyone can gauge the qualitive nature of a 3K power cord or a 15K power amp, using any one of the videos I am specifically talking about, more power to you. I simply would not trust any of it to make a purchase decision. I do have an assortment of headphones, including Stax, Sony Pro and AKG........YouTube > optical out of my 65 inch LG > dac > pre / power / headphone amp / speakers ( this is my bedroom system, as my main system is audio only ). I hear everything on these videos and what you folks are talking about.....I just cannot make a decision or decipher the value of a piece of gear this way. This is me. As much as I agree that headphones are a wonderful way to hear details, these YT channels I speak of, are imo, poor sounding, and not everything on YT is poor sounding. Again, thank you all for the feedback....Enjoy, be well and stay safe. MrD.

@eganmedia  you have it exactly correct.  I concur 100%.

Also, the store that used an MP3 file connected via a phone does indeed make for a baseline of comparison.  However, for a store to use that as a source to demonstrate products of such a high quality is shameful.  I went through a very similar experience in Los Angeles recently.  The salesman using that lousy source did such an injustice to beautiful speakers that I was shopping for.  I bought speakers two weeks later, from another dealer, who demonstrated them properly.  I bought a brand different from the ones at the poor demonstration store.  So, even those brands from that store lost potential of a good sale due to a cheezy demonstration.  YT as a reference is even worse!
Just my two cents on the matter.

The most important item to audition prior to buying is the loudspeaker. If they work tolerable well in the store you should be able to get them to work even better at home where you have control over the acoustics. Unless you are lucky and have a store that will allow you to audition equipment at home you generally stick to what has worked for you in the past. Then there is the reputation of the equipment. There are pieces that stand above the rest. In many cases you go on reputation alone because there is no way for you to audition the piece even in a store. I bought my JC-1's that way and happily I am thrilled by them. They are the first amps I have owned that handily surpassed my old Krell KMA 100's. Then sometimes there is the old educated guess with which I have had many failures and a few successes.   

@eganmedia
    I concur,100%.

@mijostyn

+1

Great point, miller, in your last post.

I was trying a new power cord, but wasn't sure where I
wanted to place it.  In the end, it "didn't cut it."
But in the process, I switched the positions of the
pc to the amp with the one to the cdp (different manufacturers). 
That did the trick!  Just through a willingness to satisfy my curiosity,
"what would happen if..."

What do you think of the *comparative* nature of this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0YkKlEMe8w

Nothing about youtube, but about the above statement. On two occassions, at Harman store when asking to hear different Revel speakers, the source was.......mp3s from a Samsung phone connected via 3.5mm headphone output.

As long as the other speakers you're comparing use a similar source you have a baseline.  There is zero baseline on Youtube videos.  It's impossible to tell if the person who shot the video was using the ultra cheap microphone built into their camera or the one in their phone.  It is ridiculous on its face.  But then so much of this hobby is. 

I have a perspective a lot of folks here don't in that I've been a professional recording engineer for over 30 years.  I listen to sources, I choose their placement in a given room (which often makes a HUGE difference), I choose the microphone that either flatters the sound of the source I'd like to spotlight in the finished recording, or one that is flat and neutral.  I also choose one that has the polar pickup pattern that works best for the source, where it is in the room, the mic's distance from the source, and what else is playing in the room. What does their projection sound like from the microphone's point of view and how does it alter the sound of the source as heard by that microphone?  Sometimes I process that signal on the way in to the recording system, but more often than not I leave those decisions for the mix.

So when I see a Youtube video shot on a phone or a camcorder with ultra-cheap electret condenser mics and a ton of onboard processing with auto gain and limiting built in, moving around a room picking up the sound of a loudspeaker from a distance where room reflections become a critical component of the sound, I know only that I am *not* hearing anything more than a lousy recording, vaguely evocative of how the speaker sounds in that locations through those crappy mics.  And then it goes through the camera's codec and Youtube's codec afterward.  Then I listen back through the coloration of *my* speakers.  By the time you hear a recording of a component or loudspeaker on Youtube, all that's really left to judge critically is how it looks,  which seems to be how many audiophiles tend to listen anyway- with their eyes.

Get yourself a great headphone and then listen . It makes a world of difference . I got me some planar headphone from HiFiMan and I'm really enjoying the music on YT . I can even hear the difference between the recordings and systems according to the quality .

You can't audition components on Youtube or in dealer showrooms. And it's fun to go crazy at an audio conference having heard that next, great thing that whets your appetite. But you're right--all of our systems are snowflakes, each different. Add the same component to each of our systems and it'll typically be a different experience. So, we buy and we try and sometimes we return. But it's not like we try every amp or interconnect or DAC and then make a choice. Round trip shipping plus 5% restocking fee on thousands of dollars--it adds up. If it were only as easy as going to car dealers and test-driving all the mini SUVs and then making an educated choice. Instead, we research, listen to friends, listen to folks on here and then maybe try one or three amps/speakers/interconnects in our system. No wonder we wonder if cryogenically freezing wire makes a difference. Or maybe cryogenically freezing THAT cable is really what I want. Does it come in silver? I guess it leaves me in a state of not really knowing...I love my system but had I test-driven the Hegel or the Wilson Maxx or the Classe or the Chord, would I have loved them more? I don't know. I never will. If I had millions I might know better but never conclusively. All of our systems are snowflakes and we're in this game because it's fun to research, to tweak, to upgrade, and most of all to listen to the music. I just bought an amazing power amp--it's so much better than my previous amp. I'm truly enjoying it. And I'm also thinking, is there something I'm missing even with this? Probably, and I'm exhausted! :-)  

To what others have said... headphones make all the difference for starters, and yes, you can become educated over time listening to various things and learning what music sounds like. (I know that is an odd statement, but true) I am a drummer, I listen and buy cymbals at times, based on YT videos. I’ve heard enough cymbals in my day to know what I am listening for, and what I need from the sound. Snare drums are similar, but are slightly more challenging. I have an “educated” ear in that regard and can discern very well what I prefer and don’t. Stereo gear is not much different. The more you listen to recorded music, become familiar with how it sound as a whole, you can start to pull out the good and bad from various “systems” on video.

"I guess people like the sound of compressed cell phone videos over quagly computer speakers."

Nothing about youtube, but about the above statement. On two occassions, at Harman store when asking to hear different Revel speakers, the source was.......mp3s from a Samsung phone connected via 3.5mm headphone output.

When a place that has access to some decent products (Mark Levinson, Revel, JBL) demoes them that way, no wonder YouTube videos are sufficient to evaluate the sound of tube amplifiers and what not. For some.

You just make your mind up in advance, frequently heavily influenced by price, and then convince yourself that what you hear via laptop is what you want. Win-win-win. (wallet-ego-seller).

@millercarbon That was a really nice, graduated ladder of listening growth -- the audiophile's bildungsroman. Another poster here with really great ears also uses YT, but not to evaluate anything in an absolute sense; rather, he does what you describe (I think), namely to "see in" to the system on YT, to grok its personality.

Right. There’s no such thing as evaluating anything in the absolute sense anyway. All we can do is evaluate relative. That’s why its so important to be willing to change things. The biggest waste of time in audio is to drive to a dealer or show or friend or whatever and listen the the system and not change anything. Which is of course what everyone does. What you must do instead is have them change something. Anything. Almost does not matter.
Easiest and maybe best is to bring along one of your interconnects. Ask to compare to one of theirs. Then you hear what was in the system, yours, and theirs. Three comparisons! Or ask about the power cord or IC in the system, what do they have for less or more, and try that. Seriously. Almost does not matter what it is. Point is the minute you hear one thing change like that you immediately get a handle on the whole system.

All you can really hear by the way is the relative difference between the two power cords. There’s no such thing as an "absolute" anything. Its all relative. All the same, its a tremendous advantage to listen and compare. Total game-changer.

That’s the real reason why when I have audiophiles over I like to remove the cable elevators. Or turn active shielding off. Its not to demo the elevators. Its not to test the listeners. Its to give them the chance to hear and learn.

To me its shocking how few people try these things. But then given that is the case, its no surprise the number who never advance past that second intermediate level, can’t find any value in YT videos. These things go hand in hand you know.

Another one, whining and blaming the room and setup for not being able to evaluate what they heard at a show. As if there is some reference room somewhere we all use, and only the show room is different! Stalled out at Level II....

I complained about this on Facebook, where these "audiophiles" would record their Pioneer speakers with their cell phones and post it to the world as the greatest sound ever.  I was severely criticized for my comments - even given the old "OK Boomer" line.  I guess people like the sound of compressed cell phone videos over quagly computer speakers.

There is unintended value to these "sound demo" videos.  I have been introduced to many new artists and songs via this medium. Examples for me include; Leonard Cohen, Yao Si Ting and Niles Lofgren.  It is always interesting to hear what specific music another audiophile likes, irrespective if I also like it or not.

Mark

@millercarbon That was a really nice, graduated ladder of listening growth -- the audiophile's bildungsroman. Another poster here with really great ears also uses YT, but not to evaluate anything in an absolute sense; rather, he does what you describe (I think), namely to "see in" to the system on YT, to grok its personality.

I'm not listening to these YouTube videos to audition equipment. I'm checking out somebody's system. There are so many with terrible sound. And it's not representative of listening at home.

Sometimes I trade audio files with a friend thru email. He knows my system and I know his. 

I wish some of these posters would practice what they preach!
As for using YT for evaluating an audio component (listening), what a joke. You really can't go to a dealer and listen to a set of speakers and think they will sound like that in your home, in your room, with your components. Same goes for an amp/dac/preamp, you need to evaluate these components using your system to see how the synergy is between the components.
This is like test driving a car from a YT video. Impossible!
YT as well as on the web, you can read reviews and check out how people are using the product you are evaluating/looking at, but even then, you don't know how smart the guy is that is presenting.

Mr Decibel, you are absolutely correct. Listening to these videos or files is a complete waste of time. It is a blatantly unsatisfactory way to make any determination about anything. 

This is crazy broad strokes, but there's a progression audiophiles tend to go through en route to becoming a good listener/evaluator. 

We start off being able to notice tone, frequency, and volume. When you hear people talk about cables being tone controls, this is where its coming from. You can tell the level of the audiophile by the language used. 

Next they start to notice things like dynamics, and that there's a sound stage. Dynamics is harder to differentiate than you might think, because there's things like bass extension and hyped treble can trick you into thinking its more dynamic. Also there's the obvious body slam impact aspect of dynamics, and then there's micro-dynamics, the subtle quiver or tremolo of a voice or string or whatever that triggers that hair on the back of the neck "this is real" kind of feeling. 

Usually most audiophiles up to this point are pretty well convinced of the need to have certain "reference tracks" they play at "reference volume" on something called a "reference system." They need to keep it simple because they haven't yet learned to differentiate, let alone mentally correct for, the effects of these things. 

For sure this is triggering some "aha" moments and recognition of a lot of what goes on around here. 

This is about where most stop, and its understandable, because its tough. The scope of what we're hearing expands into hard to describe things like timbre, attack and decay, air (most everyone blows this one), and the list goes on and on.  

Practice makes perfect. Here's another one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWp48WzlkMoThere's a whole bunch of them on this channel. They're great because even though the records change there's a bunch with the same table, cart and phono stage, and even DAC, and when these things change he lets you know.  

Keep in mind at this stage of the game you're simply trying to notice the similarities. You're not trying to figure out what these things sound like in any kind of absolute sense. What they would sound like in your system. Forget that. Just listen and try and get a handle on what's the same. Patience helps. I probably listened to that Christopher Cross a dozen times now. 

Listening thru headphones is a better experience.

But I would consider the source; who is producing the video. Is it an amateur or a professional? Try listening to the Deja Vu Audio videos. They sell high-end components and also do custom builds. I really get a sense of the SQ of their audio setups.

And I agree with MC; use all the experience you have learned in listening to music. There are tonal qualities, dynamics, nuances in reproducing music. I know you have what it takes to be a good listener based upon your postings.

Listen through good headphones.  A world of difference.

Is a sailing video like sailing? Nope. By the way Mr.D, I'm getting a pair of Heresy IVs soon and as I compare 'em to my IIIs they won't have  damped mid horns! DAMN...and I don't have any more of the damping stuff you pressured me into...damn again...oh well, I guess I'll be undamped for a while but please, don't hold it against me...

Bear in mind these guys all have a little bit different audience. The vast majority range in terms of knowledge and experience from utter noobs to advanced novice or maybe intermediate level. Even the ones who do know a lot, that is their audience, beginners.

The part about sound, the value of listening to a system on YT, in other words a laptop, I find a lot more value in that than anything any of these guys has to say.

You just need to learn how to listen, and evaluate what you’re hearing. This gets more complicated when recording the sound of a system in a room, because on top of all the usual problems of having all the same equipment we have the additional challenge of microphone placement that all by itself can swamp everything else. Still, even with all that, there’s things we can hear that can make it worthwhile.

Just to give you some idea what I mean, I’ve now bought three different components that were at least partially based on listening to them on YT. That’s right. I did all the research the usual way, and then also listened to them. Lo and behold, when I got them home they ALL sounded EXACTLY as I had come to expect from hearing them on my laptop. My freaking laptop!

The first was a Koetsu Black Goldline. That’s right. There’s a YT channel where all the guy does is spin a record. Not one word. You just know the cartridge, arm, turntable, and phono stage. You hear the feed from the phono stage. There’s a couple different Koetsu carts, a couple different tables, usually the same Herron phono stage, but never the same record. Normal audiophile would say has to be all the same stuff, certainly all the same record, too many changes, totally invalid. I had no problem evaluating what was what. Even used this same channel to buy the next component, the Herron VTPH2A.

The third one, Tekton Moab speakers. Besides the Moabs I "listened to" Ulfberhts on YT.

Hard to explain what to listen for. All I can say, the information is there. It is of value. You just need to learn how to evaluate it. 

Here you go-  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXtS7hApoSE Hit Show More for the component list. Listen to a few of these. See if you can spot the similarities between the ones with the same cart and phono stage.