Willie, I think that what you have may be genuine. I bought a bunch from Isolate-It, which seems to be what you are describing. Isolate-It is a legitimate Sorbothane distributor.
Are You Sorbothane Experienced?
I couldn't find any discussions on user experiences with sorbothane isolation feet, so decided to start one. I recently purchased a set of 4 40mm sorbothane feet for my Music Hall mmf-5 turntable.
Setup was less than favourably a one-man affair, so it was a rather precarious endeavour.
One thing that adds to the difficulty of what I imagined would be an entirely straightforward installation, is the fact that the sorbothane feet easily distort under the slightest off-centre loading. That means you have to adjust them incessantly at both top and bottom contact points until you miraculously have all 4 perfectly vertically loaded perpendicular to your turntable's factory feet as well as your shelf. In my case the shelf is by Salamander.
Once you've managed all this and justifiably rather pleased with yourself, guess what? Your turntable may or may not be level as it was prior to the installation. So, level the TT at the shelf rather than at the adjustable feet, as are standard on the MH, because adjusting the feet would upset those super squishy sorbothane isolation pucks.
The listening verdict: I honestly can't say that I can hear any difference during before & after playback of Jimmy Cliff's Wonderful World, Beautiful People.
I'm curious to learn of your experiences, if any. Cheers!
Setup was less than favourably a one-man affair, so it was a rather precarious endeavour.
One thing that adds to the difficulty of what I imagined would be an entirely straightforward installation, is the fact that the sorbothane feet easily distort under the slightest off-centre loading. That means you have to adjust them incessantly at both top and bottom contact points until you miraculously have all 4 perfectly vertically loaded perpendicular to your turntable's factory feet as well as your shelf. In my case the shelf is by Salamander.
Once you've managed all this and justifiably rather pleased with yourself, guess what? Your turntable may or may not be level as it was prior to the installation. So, level the TT at the shelf rather than at the adjustable feet, as are standard on the MH, because adjusting the feet would upset those super squishy sorbothane isolation pucks.
The listening verdict: I honestly can't say that I can hear any difference during before & after playback of Jimmy Cliff's Wonderful World, Beautiful People.
I'm curious to learn of your experiences, if any. Cheers!
63 responses Add your response
Beware "fake sorbothane"? I've used sorbothane sheets for many years - originally purchased it from a local supplier - they used in AC applications to dampen vibration noise on AC ductwork. I use it on most of my components for isolation - especially the feet But it definitely is a case of less is better - I only use 1/10" thick sheet. I tried thicker but the SQ gt worse. I purchased a couple of sheets off the web last year (I don't remember the vendor). The issue I have with these newer sheets is that they leave a slight residue (almost greasy) on the components they are attached too. My original purchase left no residue at all. So I'm wondering if these latest sheets are actually a knock-off of the "real thing" I'll be more attentive in future Cheers |
Like a couple of others in this thread, I've had good luck with my Sorbothane table mat (an Audioquest). Used it on a Rega Planar 2 and now have it on my vintage Pioneer PL 15D II. Made a bigger difference on the Pioneer because of its flimsy aluminum platter. My Sota never needed anything; one of the best suspensions out there. Both of my tables are also in an exceptionally massive built-in cabinet rig. Footfalls and the like simply don't propagate much, if at all. Never liked the idea of accessory isolation feet. They just seem like too much of an engineering compromise. My 2 cents, anyway. |
Generally speaking Sorbothane is good for absorbing shock but the same reason that makes it good for insoles of walking shoes makes it bad for the sound - it absorbs and stores energy. Super balls, on the other hand, those little high bouncing multicolored rubber balls about 1" diameter you can get in bubble gum machines at the supermarket work much better, I.e., sound much better. They don’t store energy, they release it. It's the same thing with the Happy Balls and Sad Balls from Edmund Scientific. One is good for the sound, the other isn't. |
Of all of the many tweaks I have experimented with, this was the least favorite. As noted, these damm things distort and are generally a pain to install. Once installed they are NOT attractive nor could I hear any improvement whatsoever. Mine went back with a note that these things were not at all pleasing. |
geoff is right about the plethora of different materials and devices on the market as well as some you might pick up at a well stocked hardware store. After messing with many of these over the years I have found Steve and Robert Herbelin (Herbie's Audio Lab) to provide very sober yet sane advice. You can always give them a call or email them, describe your issue and see what they might recommend to deal with it. I have had fine results with both their regular and stiff Tenderfeet. They have other devices to discuss as well. |
Geez, there are so many different materials: variations of the same type of material like Sorbothane and similar viscoelastic material, lead, ceramics, many different types of hardwoods, including Mpingo, maple, but also granite, slate, bluestone, air bladders of various designs, racquet balls, squash balls, tennis balls, brass cones, steel cones, aluminum cones, springs, cryo’d springs, suspensions, magnetic levitation, sandboxes, glass microbeads, roller bearing assemblies, negative stiffness isolation, dual layer mass on spring platforms. And permutations and combinations thereof. Who can evaluate and compare them all? |
I did hundreds of tests a few years ago that included sorbothane. I was inspired to try Sorbothane by Chris Orchard's positive experiences designing the excellent, but long gone, Rivelin Eclipse turntable (loved by malcolm Steward). Here are some of the results: http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/vibra_iso_pt1_e.html http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/vibra_iso_pt2_e.html http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/vibra_iso_pt3_e.html http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/vibra_iso_pt4_e.html http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/vibra_iso_pt6_e.html I don't test sorbo specifically in these tests as my sorbo sheets were not an audio product. The unnamed devices in the test were RDC cones and Deflex blobs, which they did not want reviewing; RDC were comprehensively beaten by PolyChrystal and Deflex blobs were slightly behind Isonodes. My findings were mixed for sorbothane, useful as a big sheet (reduced horizontal compliance, but excellent damping) and as a sheet under a brick on top of a component (but not as good as Isonodes in same place). See picture at top of this article to see how far you can go http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/aaaa5_e.html |
sorry my experiences with Sorbothane have always been negative , even when i tried the clearlight audio RDC 4 cones with the sorbothane layer i found it kills the dynamics of the music , but if you wish to try it look out for a set of clearlight audio RDC 4 cones I prefer the RDC 1.2 cones with bases around 50gbp for a set of 4 no sorbothane in them or theres a German company called BFLY they build platforms using different layers of various materials and sorbothane is one of them , the do a 3 platform range i think which can all be leveled and they also sell isolation feet using the multi layer various material idea , i have tried the probase two around 500gbp i found the results a mixed bag so i didnt buy but your situation may be different good luck |
if you want to completely isolate your TT from its surroundings down to at least 4hz i would check out a Townshend audio seismic isolation platform they, come in various sizes and can be built for the exact weight of the equipment it would be supporting and can be leveled once the TT has been successfully placed on top of it. if the platform is out of your budget take a look at the Townshend audio seismic pods you can use 3 or 4 and they are also adjustable so leveling your TT is very easy , theres been some great reviews in the uk regarding the seismic isolation products , the seismic podiums are platforms designed for you speakers to be placed on the results are absolutely incredible . |
The Sorbothane folk at isolateit! make it explicitly clear that for their material to work effectively simple calculations need be made to order what is needed. Determine the total weight to be decoupled from whatever it is placed upon-that will tell you how many isolation devices need be used and the durometer rating they should be ordered in. i have a 44 lb granite slab upon which my 20 lb table sits (64 lbs total) which has 10 1 1/2" diameter x 3/4" tall Sorbothane isolating hemispheres used by me as feet placed between the granite and the stand working in conjunction with each other to provide proper isolation. Each of these 10 feet were ordered with a duro load rating 30, which provides isolation for a load of 4 lbs to 7 pounds each. Thus 64 lbs divided by 7 pounds each thus needed 10 of them. Yes they are compressed when in position bearing that load, but function perfectly. No wonder they did not work out well in some of the applications described. Duro ratings of higher than 30 support additional weight each so the determination can be made to get the proper fitment for the load to be isolated. Have photos of my application of these but am a newbie here on AudiogoN and don't know how to get them posted here. Sorry, hope this extended information gives some needed guidance. |
if your looking for inexpensive ways to isolate id suggest a talk with your local head stone maker ( possibly counter top maker as well) and get a granite / marble etc slab semi ruff cut its smooth but not shiny see the one under my table in my profile ( its bigger then you need at 3"x24"x18" and 165lbs but you get the idea). it cost me $60. then make a simple braced wall mount for it and you will be shocked at how much better it will sound. shouldn't cost much more then $150 total with a little leg work and simple fab work. if you want more details let me know. then get some cones/ pin points like others suggested and boom your in turntable glory. or buy a turntable wall mounting kit and be done with it. oh yes I used to have that 165lb slab on a wall mount...can't unfortunately in this place i'm in now though. I had that big slab in a corner though so got extra bracing there, all on some 1.5"x0.5" wood slats. It looked great by the way. i'll have to dig up a pic someday. |
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Geoffkait - I'm embarrassed to admit I'd never before known anything about J. C. Verdier Turntables. This collection of user experiences has been a tremendously illuminating read: http://www.astrasuite.com/astrablog/j-c-verdier-turntable-reviews-1/ |
avdesigns OP Nov. 14, 2013 Blog post on S.A.P. Relaxa Isolation Platform http://www.mykindofmusic.com/s-a-p-relaxa-isolation-platform/ Is there an echo in here? I mentioned the Relaxa three days ago. |
Nov. 14, 2013 Blog post on S.A.P. Relaxa Isolation Platform http://www.mykindofmusic.com/s-a-p-relaxa-isolation-platform/ |
Just discovered something important, in case you are really looking at sorbothane. I looked up my order history and found out I got the 50 duro sorbothane feet. They are only 1" domes: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00516DGIG/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 These really compressed and deformed under my power supply (which is not as heavy as a turntable!!). I figured you'd want to know. Probably best to try to get a 70 duro if you get sorbothane.. I'm sure there are better ways to go. |
I have a set of old heavy duty Sorbothane feet under my tube amp…these aren't as nearly squishy as Vibrapods which I use elsewhere. The residue is no biggie for me, and the heavier Vibrapods in use under my speakers work very well in decoupling them from my wood floor…highly recommended. I have some "real special" metal alloy cones under my preamp mostly because they keep air circulating under it, and because I discovered them in a box of old audio stuff and thought hey…those look pretty cool, and make me seem like I give a crap. |
@dentdog Hello Dent. I used a sticky, jelly stuff known as 'MOONGEL Damper Pads'. It comes in thin strips about 1" x 1.5", and is mainly used to tune drum kits by changing the resonance patterns. Pieces on the Tomahawk wand above the cartridge, and at several points along the wand, work wonders. A few pieces on the saddle also help. The sound becomes more focussed and precise, but at the expense of some sweetness. This can be corrected electronically by changing the dielectric on RIAA capacitors, especially if you are using teflon, or by a marginal increase in the RIAA values. |
Terry9 - I'm frugal but also risk averse, so I always hire professionals. The wiring was mostly addressed during the home inspection & was the responsibility of the seller (the original honeowner). But her contractor could not "see" everything, so my contractor uncovered additional issues, which he resolved (more or less). Still other issues remain to be addressed. |
AV, you said you were frugal, so I mention that in some jurisdictions, it is perfectly legal for a homeowner to do his own wiring. Just make sure that you memorize the relevant sections of the applicable electric code, hire a good electrician to walk you through the first day, and make certain that every circuit is inspected before you energize. Never work on a live circuit. Check with a multimeter, every time. Don't work alone. Please follow the law exactly here - no shortcuts. It protects you and yours from a hundred horsepower hidden behind the walls. You will need rubber soled shoes, assorted screwdrivers, pliers, wire stripper, and a decent multimeter, like a less expensive Fluke. Good luck!! |
Did you say '40-year-old home'? I don't recall the exact dates, but it was around that time that aluminum wiring was used instead of copper. This was a terrible idea because aluminum is a little hard to terminate, and poor workmanship resulted in fires. You might want to consider checking the wiring. Your best audio investment may be in improved wiring - copper or copper, one size heavier than code (code usually specifies 14 AWG for a circuit, so use 12 AWG for audio circuits, and industrial quality sockets). I use a subpanel on the other side of the house, fed by a fat 2 AWG cable, which powers isolation transformers for the audio. |
I bought a McIntosh MX130 preamp here on Audiogon several years ago. It had an audible hum that was not heard through the speakers. Someone on this forum suggested using sorbothane feet to reduce the hum. I did, and it worked! I also loosened the screws on the sides slightly and the hum completely disappeared. |
Timely tip: generally speaking you will get more traction by abandoning soft, pliant materials in favor of real isolation, I.e., mass-on-spring techniques, with minimal internal damping, using very stiff and hard materials such as diamond hardness ceramics to interface to both the top plate and directly to the floor, plus thick granite, maple or bluestone slabs for the top plate. |
Thanks lads, you have given me so much to consider. Far more than I anticipated actually, and I know there must be so much more to learn. I'm above all else a music and movie lover and although I'm notorioisly frugal (my mum says "cheap" lol) I maintain 5 entertainment systems and I'm willing to spend $ where and when I have to. I've just purchased a 40-yr old home, so trying to get everything setup to the point of perhaps preempting an unpleasant experience. So far, my experience has been all positive, apart for some concern over my bouncy floor. If one of these suggestions proves to be a winning solution I will revisit the topic to share that experience. Thanks, once agan. Cheers! |
Sorbothane is a material like any other, and it must be used in the right place in the right way. That means engineering calculations. The sorbothane website is a good place to start. IMO, feet are not the right place. Spikes give much better performance in both the TT which form my testbeds - sound is more focussed and precise, while sorbothane feet sound mushy. Where sorbothane shines is in motor isolation. But again, it's not often used correctly. According to the website, you need inches of low durometer material to isolate the typical AC TT motor. That describes my DIY units - but not many others. Of course, there are other valid approaches, like SME. The key here is how much noise is transmitted into the TT plinth from the floor. If you live in a railroad switch yard, you will need as much isolation as you can get. The SME solution is made for you. IMO. If you live on rock, miles from the nearest industry, highway or railway, you probably don't need any isolation at all. The latter is my situation, which is why spikes without any isolation device work for me. As noted, YMMV. |
avdesigns - You might consider starting a new thread in the analog forum for feedback from members with more experience with your particular turntable - but given that you can't hear any difference with the sorbothane pads, I will say this: If you want to tweak and try different things, that's great as long as you enjoy it - that's part of the fun - but be careful and realize that upgrades and tweaking can become a slippery slope and I've seen many here spend more in "upgrades" than on the actual device they're trying to upgrade (with cables, isolation platforms, platters, weights, etc. etc.) The fact that you can't hear ay difference with the new sorbothane is a good sign- shows that you aren't all that susceptible to "wishful thinking" -that's a good thing. You have a great table for the money, you should enjoy it and if you see a problem and you can fix it? Go for it - otherwise, don't go chasing your tail unnecessarily - your Music Hall should deliver great results as-is and if you think that you have isolation or resonance problems, chances are, the solutions aren't going to ever be solved by some silver bullet "tweak". Just my $.02 Greg |
That link was just an example. See this: They do have a variety of different sizes and durometer values for sorbothane feet. However, I don't know what is best for a turntable. These look interesting for 1.5" And I can't tell you what the optimum durometer would be for your situation. Maybe the above 50 Duro 1.5" washers with cone spikes underneath? |
You might try felt bottom footers for your table's feet. Another option would be a separate plinth under your table that you could isolate independently and then level your table in the usual way. I have mine on 3/4" acrylic with isolation spikes - works well and even looks good. I'm sure that you'll come up with something that ultimately works for you. Take care Greg |
AVDesigns - According to the literature on your turntable, they say: "Viso-elastic cones separate the platforms and act as superb dampening devices. The result: Quieter, more detailed playback that benefits from advanced vibration control, dynamic balances, and properly alignment of key components." Granted, that's the description for the 5.1, but the MMF5 has the same thing. Are you sure that you need additional isolation? Just curious. Greg |
Wall mount is ideal. that said I had a discussion open a couple months ago and got many ideas. and not one was sorbothane. there is many better solutions out there. google isolation feet. but from what I tested a solid pinpoint on hard surface worked best under my Garrard. mind you that will not take out the larger vibrations like moving floors ie, foot falls and building movement, that’s why wall mount is the best. I found after testing the soft feet made the sound mushy sort of the hard pinpoints made the sound more focused and the detail better. hope that helps. |
I have some old school Audioquest Sorbothane Feet (the large ones), 8 of them that I've had for years. They are squishy and do leave stains that are very hard to get rid of, especially if you stack one component on top of another - a no-no but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do...... Never knew they came in different levels of firmness. I just set them and forget them. I guess they make some difference but its more like piece of mind than anything else. For a turntable, I'd use points, not sorbothane feet - the points are much better. Anyone remember the Mod Squad Tip Toes? Those were the best and only $7 a piece! |
