Count me as a fan of the vast majority of your posts in this forum, but I’m afraid this isn’t one of them. Taylor Swift’s songs about the vicissitudes of young love are at least as interesting--to cite a random example--as Fleetwood Mac’s, and many of her tunes are nearly as catchy.
The popularity of any given music is certainly not proof of its artistic merit, but neither is it proof of the lack of it. Swift writes catchy tunes that resonate with her target audience--which isn’t you or me, though on her better songs it’s not that hard to remember when.
My daughter finally got me to give her a try last summer, and I was surprised by how quickly my reflexive resistance to her music was worn down with repeated exposure to it. Before long, I found myself wanting to hear this song or that.
Sure, it can get a little syrupy in places. Young love and heartache can do that to a person, however talented and well-meaning. I’ll probably make a best-of when I have more free time this summer and enjoy the hell out of it.
It really helps if you have a relentless teenage daughter begging you to give it a try. In this case, I'm glad she prevailed. In other cases, not so much. I don't guess I'll ever love Imagine Dragons the way I should.
Thanks for the "new" music suggestions. I've created an "AudioGon" playlist on Tidal and added these. Hopefully, something there will resemble something like Carol King, Supertramp, and America tossed into a blender?
@tylermunnslook, I'm not arguing that we as a society are attracted by the superficial and hollow (and yes, I do lisyen to swift and have seen a few shows), but again, labeling her fans as vapid is snobbery at its finest.
Are you without fault? Do you have no superficial and shallow interests? If not, you must be a total bore to hang out with.
@simaoI said the music was vapid. If you want to take that personally and take it as though I'm saying YOU are vapid, I have no control over that, that's on you.
I watch "Farting Preacher" videos on YouTube very often.
Is that "shallow" enough for you?
It seems odd to me that you would describe as "boring" the hypothetical person who eschews superficial and shallow things (presumably in favor of exciting/interesting/smart things). I find stupid, trite, cliche-mongering things to be, at best, boring. At worst, a punishing experience.
"Personally, I think if somebody likes it, it's good, even if it's just good for that one person. Can't negate somebody else's experience..."
I appreciate what you're getting at, but do you really, I mean...really believe that?
Cyber-speak can often impart unintended tone and fail to represent tone accurately, so I'm going to emphasize that the above question is sincere, not laced with contempt, sarcasm, condescension or anything like that.
I'll further clarify the question: lots of people think unspeakable violent acts of cruelty are "good." These people end up in prison. If they think those things are "good," does it actually make them "good?"
Your musical references are all things that I like a lot. They are all very singular in their sound. So based upon that, here are a few things to try that you might like:
Woods - Strange to Explain
Vetiver - Up on High
Real Estate - Daniel
MGMT - Loss of Life
J Mascis - Elastic Days
Those Unfortunates - Welcome to Woodbury Down
Bryan Ferry - Mamouna
Steven Wilson - The Harmony Codex
Jonathan Wilson - Rare Birds
The Clientele - Bonfires on the Heath
Waxahatchee - Tigers Blood
Angel Olsen - Forever Means
Tennis - Yours Conditionally
Hope you get a chance to hear some of these and enjoy them as much as I do.
@tylermunns- Hi! Oh, I took it that your question was sincere, and I do really believe that. Not that I like everything; there's a lot of music I can't stand! 🤣
These are not violent acts we're talking about here - it's musical taste...
@tylermunnsBuddy, you can semantically parse your words all you want but, yes, you are enforcing a completely arbitrary and arrogant gateway for what can be considered legitimate art. I'm sorry, that's your opinion and I guess you're entitled to it but, again, you come across as holier-than-thou.
Rest assured I don't take anything you say personally (I mean, why would I? Though judging by the sheer amount of your own word salad you're tossing, you seem to invest a lot of emotion in this forum). But, yes, your earlier comment about
"It seems odd to me that you would describe as "boring" the hypothetical person who eschews superficial and shallow things (presumably in favor of exciting/interesting/smart things)"
reinforces my point about snobbery. Your "exciting/interesting/smart" (whatever the hell that last descriptor means) things are to millions boring, meaningless, and uninspiring.
And your earlier comment:
"Whether there is any merit to exposing oneself to a significant swath of Top 40 music in 2024"
has been adapted by many and applied to just about any year of pop music over the past half century or more. As if Top 40 music of 1994 or 1984 or 2004 had more or less merit.
@simaoAllow me to once again issue semantic gymnastics and snobbishly parse out words:
“…enforcing a completely arbitrary and arrogant gateway for what can be considered legitimate art…”
Come again?
“gateway?” “enforcing” said gateway?
What is this crap?
Ay yi yi…
Who said anything about “legitimate art?” Not me. That was you.
I said I think the vast majority of the most popular music today is utter trash (that includes Swift, though I wouldn’t put her in the upper tier of the most egregious offenders). It appears my opinion has struck a nerve, as though you’ve somehow taken this as some personal affront.
It’s just a personal opinion. You’re free to disagree.
I wish I could be so flattered to think I had the power to be a “cultural gate-keeper” and “enforce a gateway” to the whole of the music-listening population, but I don’t.
You’re giving me waaaaaaaaay too much power, bud.
Again, it’s just 1 out of 8,000,000,000 opinions.
I’m not sitting here as though I’m some God-like bouncer at some Studio 54-esque gate, checking everyone’s music collection and saying, “nope, sorry, you can’t come in…too lame…you can’t enter the world of music fandom.”
Just. A. Guy.
You referenced this sentence of mine, “ - Whether there is any merit to exposing oneself to a significant swath of Top 40 music in 2024.”
Not sure if you just totally missed the point or if you were taking my words out of context or some combination of both.
That was something I wrote in a previous post here, a bullet-point-thing merely illustrating the various topics I’d addressed here (there was a knucklehead who chose to join the forum and just start firing away Yosemite Sam-style with the political trolling, and he foolishly tried to insinuate my contributions to the thread were of the same nature, so I just listed the various topics I’d addressed, all of which were relevant to this thread on Taylor Swift, none of the topics remotely close political candidates or Bible sales)
It was a question, not a statement either way.
I’m not really sure what your last sentence is getting at
@tylermunnsNothing of what you've blathered about has struck a nerve save for the unctuous manner in which you blather. At least millercarbon had a sense of humor.
And yes, I did say "legitimate art" as that's the conclusion one can reach about your opinions on the manner.
I cannot have an opinion because i never listen to her "consciously"...
I had not listened consciously to no popular music after Bob Dylan Leonard Cohen old men and singers (Billie Holiday Joan Baez) of a past era now...
I am old i guess...
But i really think that this tylermunns claims as a musician himself must contain some truth because of my virtual visceral indifference to almost all popular music nowadays from North america since decades:
I said I think the vast majority of the most popular music today is utter trash
Now saying that ask for courage or taste for provocation...
Anyway there is so much tremendous music in the past and on earth that listening actual popular music of North america dont enter my mind not my ears too very often ... There is for sure exception as perhaps Taylor Swift is one but i did not even know her nor ever heard her ... I had no opinion about her in particular... I dont like Celine Dion and it is a good singer and like me she is from my country but i never could really like what she does at all even if i recognised his talent for sure... but what about Lady Gaga and othgers popular singers ? i cannot stand any of them for more than three minutes...😁
I must be "snob" ...😁
I like popular music of Abida Parveen especially ( the bigger voice) and Naseebo Lal though if i want to be provocative ... it is popular music by the way ...😊 and poetical and musical for me ...
I Like poetry ....And music ...
Try it
Speaking of popular music , i own more than 100 albums of Fado ... it sound good to me ... 😊
@tylermunnsat the risk of being unctuous myself, the term is "good'un", not 'goodin'
Sheesh, along with the "That dog dont bite", you're about as folksy as a credit card.
Anyhow, I can tell that you're defensive and thin-skinned, so I'm going to bow out of this conversation. I'll let you get the last word in as you are bound to do anyway. I would advise you to learn to take criticism and not associate pushback with attack.
@simaoI said, “that dog won’t hunt,” not, “that dog don’t bite.”
I look forward to the edification and growth I may be so blessed to attain in a future meeting with the sage-like simao.
I don't think being old has anything to do with liking or not like Swift or Gaga or any contemporary music any more than being a 20-something has anything to do with loving Nina Simone or Julie London or Jean-Luc Ponty. For you it seems more a question of style and being comfortable with what you enjoy, rather than making an effort to make room for new voices.
Forgive me for being didactic here, but it's like making friends as you get older: it's harder to do because everyone already has pretty much filled their social lives. And yet every now and then we make room.
Like, I discovered Jasmine Sandlas, a Punjabi hip-hop artist, a few years ago and made room for her catalog in my listening. But a friend tried to get me into Muse and I just couldn't make room for them. Yet. Maybe in a few years, but probably not.
And not to be cliche, but my mom would always blast Amalia Rodriguez when I was growing up - got me to make room for Fado early on.
In my humble (not so much) opinion , there is two type of "popular music"...
---One popular music is rooted in deep soil of a country and in poetry as Bob Dylan An example taken at random,😉
---And there is "popular music" fabricated and manufactured in studio as in a chain of automobile assembly parts ( Lady Gaga ) .. It is not even bad, lady Gaga is very talentuous... It is just without "soul" nor any past roots...no attraction at all for me...
Then i am not a snob i like all popular music on earth save the one fabricated in North America ...I guess tylermunns is not wrong about popular music being trash even if the word trash is not the one i would have used ...
Between the two types of popular music i indicated above, there exist a third type which is a mix of the past roots of India and of the POP culture... I dont like as much this third type ...Bollywood Jasmine Sandlas so talented she was and she is please me way much less than Abida Parveen ... Because Abida is nearer his roots and sufi poetry and less POP in an American sense ...
@mahgister I sometimes look at it this way: how much of the music I listen to now do I think I'll still be listening to in 5 or 10 or even 15 years? And I think some music is perfectly fine to recognize as being of the five-year variety and then I'll let that music go because it has done its job and I'll move on to and consume another type of music that will last another 5 years.
But I think when we were younger we tend to pack a lot of music that does last for 15 20 25 years or longer, like even 50 or longer, and the more we have of that music the less patience we have for a lot of the stuff that comes after it. Like I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on Lady Gaga who is incredibly insightful and personal in her lyrics and music and is definitely not a manufactured, controlled mass produced artist. Not at all.
But then again, I remember a few years ago so and told me that Rihanna had a really good voice, and I remember saying something to the effect of how could you tell because she sounds the same as a lot of other singers. Which of course she doesn't and I know that but I'm not invested enough to actually discern her voice and approach to music among all the other artists who I think are similar.
And I think some music is perfectly fine to recognize as being of the five-year variety
i dont have music i like for couple of years only sorry ,...It never happened to me even under 20 ...
All music i ever loved in my life since 13 years old i like it today as much...
I discovered new forms of music but i never changed in the reason why i love a piece of music or not ...
It must be grounded in poetry and the words beauty...i begins with choral music when i was a baby....
Music must be grounded in deep roots of a soul and country spirit ...
The country dont matter ...
If is is a fabricated well make product with no real roots in poetry and a country soul a cultural tradition , i would not like it enough to listen to it a second time ...It will be an artificial artefact like a flying saucer passing in the sky for me ...Or an industrial repeated product... Artificial anyway ... Even if the artist is a genius...
Lady Gaga is very talented as i said but i cannot live with his product and she is a genius able to create one product...
Fado for example is not a product but is deply root in portuguese soul and popular poetry ...I cannot be bored by fado...
Lady Gaga bore me after 3 minutes of my admiration for his genius... I am sincere she is a very talented artist ... But i prefer the folk roots of Joan Baez for example or the roots of Billie Holiday who sing with his soul and for his people ...
Art must be rooted in human culture traditions and history...music as poetry...
Guess why Gaudi is the greatest modern architect: he is rooted...
Guess why most modern architecture if not hideous is without soul : no roots and on the opposite modern architecture is the same as pop music on all earth it uproot man from his own culture it extract him from his soil...
Why did i love so much australian didgeridoo music with 40 albums ? Yes i confess ... 😁
it is rooted in deep soil and in dream spirit of 60,000 years history...
here is an encounter between two instruments from two rooted cultures i love it :
@tylermunns- Please forgive me for not being explicit that I was talking about artistic taste in a thread about Taylor Swift, not political violence....
@larsmanFor one, I didn’t say anything about “political violence” either.
Again, I was merely using an analogy to challenge the notion, “if someone likes it, it’s good.”
My younger daughter is a fan of a Korean K-Pop boy band called BTS and introduced me to it. They are the TSwift equivalent of Korea, it appears. I am sure they write young people lyrics like Swift as well (with some cheese and sap). When it is simplistic lyrics that I don’t care to understand, I am glad it’s in a different language that I can’t understand.
But, when I listen to some of BTS’s stuff, I feel like dancin like there’s no tomorrow. I like these boys....Swift’s stuff doesn’t amuse me enough, a bit meh... doesn’t awaken my dancing spirit.
Having a personal opinion may not necessarily be “not having an open mind.”
If a person makes grand sweeping statements about stuff they haven’t exposed themselves to, well, yeah…that’s certainly not having an open mind.
If a person takes the time to expose themselves to something and says, “I don’t like it,” that’s just having a personal opinion.
If someone handed you a plate of the best preparation of a particular food that was ever prepared for that food, and you ate it and said, “I don’t like it,” is that “not having an open mind”?
The person that eats it and says, “this is the best thing I’ve ever eaten” may not necessarily have “a more open mind,” but merely a different experience.
I agree with you overall, for instance, your food analogy is a good one. But sometimes you have to try something 3-4 times to learn to enjoy it. Wine is a good example. Some people don't like wine, but when asked, they'll say "Well I tried it once and I don't like it." Or they will have tried a really cheap wine. And then as you say, some people have tried it many times, and still don't like it. My son has tried wine several times and still doesn't appreciate it. I myself tried Chardonnay a few years back and decided I didn't like it. Then someone gave me a good one and I realized I just had a bad wine the first time. Music is the same. Who liked Miles or The Grateful Dead the first time they listened to it? I would guess very few, I know I didn't, but I tried both several times and I appreciate their music.
Same goes for music, there are types of music that you have to listen to more then once, or listen to a really good artist. Rap is a good example because some of it is really bad. But there are many people out there that have heard one song and that was the end of it for them. I also understand those who don't like the lyrics (killing cops, calling women names, drug use, etc), but when I mention there are rock songs that do the same, they just come back and say "That's different." - not sure how, but OK. I myself rarely listen to Rap, but there is some really good Rap music out there.
I have read that back in Mozart's day, young ladies would throw their scarfs or gloves or underthings (I can't find the reference) at Mozart. Scandalous! How dare these young people listen to such trash! And more current, let's not forget the outrage about Elvis, or the Dead Kennedy's and their song Kill the Poor?
Music experience is not innate taste merely and only, it is about educating ourselves about the world music richness and about our own body reaction ..
I am not born to like sarangi or tanbur over rap... 😊
I learned it ...
The fact that some rap is not bad ( after all it is mostly poetry and i like poetry by the way ) dont means that it is enough to hear mostly rap...
thats my point ..
Some music elevate the soul some not so much... It is my main criteria...
I prefer yoruba speaking drums by far to most rap try it :
Intelligent people should just stop responding to the haters much like the broadcast people quit showing idiots running onto the field. They only do it it for attention. Dear Haters, why can't you just say "It's not my cup of tea" and move on, then go vote for trump (I couldn't resist).
@deadhead1000You’re right.
Openmindedness certainly entails not shutting off completely an entire thing based on only a small sample size.
People’s tastes change and one may be surprised trying something again how much they like it.
In other words, don’t be a Green Eggs & Ham kinda guy.
@roxy54, jeez, I figured that the subject matter and comment would also include the obvious inference of sarcasm/cynicism. Why is everyone so SERIOUS all the time?? AB
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