Are cables really worth their high price because of their geometry?
They’re some pricey cables that have claim to fame because of the high tech geometry used in their cables. Many of these cables have patents on specific geometry patterns used in their cables and use this as a reason their cables sound so good. For that reason, many say the reason their cables cost so much is they’re so complex . The man hours to make a pr results in their high price. That maybe true for some cables, but I’ve seen very pricey cables using the same geometry reason that look like a thin piece of wire rapped in outer jacket no thicker than a pencil. So,Is all this geometry just another way to justify their cost or is it true science that we are paying in the end?
ALL cables have a "geometry" - it refers the manner in which the wires
in a cable are situated with respect to each other inside the cable
sleeve (if it has one). Some examples of geometry are...
Teo audio's audio cables don't have a geometry, per se.
They don't mechanistically and/or quantumly or atomically possess the ability to respond or integrate with signal -like wire does.
Everything involving a liquid metal and signal, as a living breathing pair, is different than that of wire and integration with signal.
That is why it (liquid metal) has it's own wholly different areas in fundamental physics, as compared to 'wire'. Areas in fundamental physics which are, at this point viewed as almost infinitely more complex than that of wire.
Areas that remain mathematically and theoretically unsolved. Proposed and tested and math developed for some of it, but not verified by experiment. Ie, still unbounded.
Are cables really worth their high price because of their geometry?
For me, cables really worth their high price because of their sound in my system. IMO, one's paying for someone's SKILL and KNOWLEDGE in building cables that fit's your taste and NOT from raw materials.
I made some DIY cables that sound very very good and bested many expensive ones. Ultimately my recipe was no match and had to open my wallet for some expensive ones.
The lower the signal a cable carries, the more important its SHIELDING becomes. If the geometry helps to achieve that and/or reduce stray capacitance and/or inductance, then maybe it is worth the extra cost, but NOT by much. I bought a $10 phono shielded cable from Amazon ( https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B016QVZF06/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 ) and compared it to another shielded phono cable costing in excess of $400 and there was absolutely NO difference in the sound except the $390.
As the amount of current the cables carry increase, the geometry matters less and less. In that situation about the only criteria that matters is to reduce the resistance of the wire by choosing it to be thicker.
Investing in decent interconnects has saved me big bucks in the long run. They have enabled me to hear and enjoy almost exactly what I am buying upstream, not some filtered, dynamically compressed facsimile thereof. Had I not, I could have made some choices I would have regretted later down the track.
@b4icuIf If you want to find out about audio cable design from a rather scientific point of view, I suggest reading the Iconoclast “white papers - design briefs” where a seasoned cable designer/engineer shares his process/methodology of his designing Iconoclast cables using the resources/equipment of the large cable company Belden.https://www.iconoclastcable.com/story/
Sorry, you just used an old trick to deverse me to a website of no significance at all. There is no science involved in that site. BS? a lot!
You really look for science? The cable's character that matters is its resistance. As the cable is an extension of the Amp's Ro (DF) it's value of resistance shall be low, to keep the DF as close to it's given figures.
That can be calculated. It will differ from system to system, by the Amp's DF and required cable length.
Belden is a respected raw cable manufacturer. They do not make Audio speaker cables. They make spools of cables: all kinds. When I was with a VOA (Voice Of America) station RFP, they asked for Belden. They said specifically what cable (P/N) and how to treat it. None was regarding
Audio speaker cables.
@b4icu Which part of the white papers do you disagree on? Did even read the white papers?
Your saying “The cable’s character that matters is its resistance.” so only resistance matters, but this seasoned cable engineer says that “A standard approach to any problem in audio cabling begins with some fundamental measurable attributes of wire and cable: R (resistance), L (inductance) and C (capacitance).”. Where’s your proof that this engineer is wrong?
And no, Belden is not “just” a raw cable manufacturer, they’re the company that manufacturers the Iconoclast cables. If you don’t know this, seems obvious that you didn’t even bother to look at the white papers.
I’ve got no skin in the game but I’m open minded to look at the evidence.
I mentioned Belden because this engineer has access to many expensive measuring, manufacturing, and other equipment that the typical audio cable manufacturer cannot afford.
I looked at your arguments and the engineers and frankly given his specific expertise and experience in designing and manufacturing cables I’d say the professional’s word in the field has more weight.
I mentioned you specifically because I assumed in your previous post you were asking for additional info/proof. But it seems your promoting your thread/ideas which implies you’re not open minded but rather opinionated. My intention was to help you. Apologies if I missed the mark.
A thick cable's resistance is so low, that the inductance and capacitance are negligible. So is the Ro of a high DF Amp. Is that you confront me, or is an engineer at a white something website?
I was very opened minded. I'd found it. I know what makes a good cable better. I tried it myself. I made a few cables to my friends: they loved the results. And I came up on Audiogon, in 2018, did an experiment and the results were all on my favorit: stunning.
All industries says on cable:
Directional, Cryo treated, Bi wire, Pure copper, Silver over copper, Skin effect, Geometry, Snake's oil
They were all checked (Open minded you claim) and found none relevant. All were deception to make people pay for something that do nothing. You may think that the Snake's oil is the worst. No! its only the most obvious. The rest need a bit brain to dissolve. None of your idea of "open minded" do not show any engineering or physical explanation, nor a compare to a conventional cable. They are all stories. like the bible. I'm happy that on the cables you didn't gave the credit to God! Not to say, that according to my religion, God is off on Shabbat. Well what about yourself sir, are you open minded to check mine?
Please don‘t hijack this thread and resurrect that tired old thread here. I think it has run its course. We already know you are the kenjit of speaker cables.
Audio cable companies are such a small subset of the wire electrical wire industry that it is highly unlikely that a manufacturer of cable will be able to justify the cost of producing a different weave of the stranding of the cable. I had a Coda Fet 02b preamp which made a noise on one input when changing selections. I contacted Coda and they told me it was an impedance mismatch with the cable. I moved the cable to a different input and the noise moved to the other input selection. I bought Innersound RCA cable for $50 for a meter pair and used them the noise disappeared.
(Innersound manufactures electrostatic speakers) Mr. Sanders from Innersound wrote a white paper about cables and he claimed that if a cable is manufactured correctly there will be no sonic difference between cables. After that I stopped looking for the perfect cable and used Innersound. They have since stopped making cables so I have gone with Blue Jeans cables from Seattle Washington. They are high quality and don't break the bank.
Measure with your ears. If it gets you where you like the sound be happy and roll with. My cables make a difference they are upon and the highS are clear and extended. So fir my ear I’m happy all that matters
This is good when you are happy with the sound...game over for you. Good luck Chuck.
But for one who is chasing that happiness, how many tries and errors, with large cash spendings he need to get through?
Well, randomly, checking cables that sound better than the previous (compare with a far memory...think that your ears are a measuring instrument and relay on that?) Or, ask for a calc. and go straight to the right cable. More simple and way less costly.
If I would be from the cables industry (I'm not), I would definitely recommend and encourage your way. Every time you try again, it's a profit in my wallet. Good for me. Not so good for you...
😉
If cables have been in place for a long time oxidation or other bi-metal effects can cause resistance and/or other reactance which is audible and usually not desirable. Simply de-mating and mating the connectors often makes an audible difference.
Please excuse my obvious lack of electrical engineering or math; can someone please give answers to below: 1. The discussions above re inductance and capacitance, does this cable suitability refer to speaker cables only or does it include Inter Connects. Please elaborate differences if they exist and how. 2. I have the lower end Kimber Select (all copper)ICs in my system, linking Plinius amp to pre and linking Oppo 95 to pre. Is it my ear that will tell if I jump to Analysis Plus Apex Silver, that this was a good spend to upgrade my musical experience? Thanks A
I have the lower end Kimber Select (all copper)ICs in my system, linking Plinius amp to pre and linking Oppo 95 to pre. Is it my ear that will tell if I jump to Analysis Plus Apex Silver, that this was a good spend to upgrade my musical experience? Thanks A
Considering that they and your bank balance are the only things that will be affected after their purchase, I would definitely say yes. If they offer a more open window to the musical performance that you feel is commensurate with, or (if you are lucky) exceeds their cost buy them. Try some alternatives before you make your final decision.
I always look for an interconnect that is dynamically unconstrained and has the transparency which allows my system to exhibit chameleon like properties with respect to different components and recordings. The best cable I have in that regard is some ungodly expensive Nordstrom interconnect I luckily got for a song, which effectively does the disappearing act to tee. To those who think that all wire sounds the same, you are lucky.
Mr.
alextobi7
My say regards speaker cables. For interconnect, capacitance and inductance do matter. But I'm not into IC cables. For speaker cables, I'll stick to my ground. When most cable makers, sale #14 to #12 cables, just because it is more convenient to make them - capacitance and inductance may influence. But when you use a #4 awg or thicker, the series resistance is so low, that capacitance and inductance are negligible.
You have already started your own SECOND thread on this subject ‘How to Select a Good Speaker Cable’ in case anybody is interested. Just because hardly anybody has shown any real interest there doesn’t mean they will show any here. Why don’t you leave discussions on your obsession back on your own thread where they belong and quit hijacking this one?
This guy is completely wrong on his idiotic attempt recommending speaker cables. The effective DF has as much to do with the speaker motor, crossovers and FR than any cable. DF is figured by source, load and wire resistance the least of these is wire resistance. You don't need a battery cable for short cable runs it's nonsense.
Ever so agree with what you say. At least you seem to have the knack using words that pass the moderators.
I hadn’t, by mentioning the possible influence of a hearing aid in assessing the recommended results by e.g. advising battery/starter type automotive cables.
Been there done that some 25 years ago - but actually have moved on since that time, as the results proved there was no perceivable change in SQ. At all. Eish! 😏 Michélle
I have found that different cables work differently which I assume has a lot to do with system interface. I had been running a Shunyata Venom RCA interconnect from Pre (ARC ref 5se) to amp (sanders Magtech). Other cabling (source and speaker) remained the same. I heard very distinct and noticeable improvements including detail and, surprisingly, imaging enhancement when I swapped in a slightly shorter length (1 vs. 2 meter) of Wireworld Eclipse 8 (base ohno copper version, not silver or gold reference). Why I don’t know but the benefit was apparent.
It's my understanding and experience that damping factor doesn't matter unless it's really low like on some tube amps. I have a vintage krell amp that only has a damping factor of 120 but it produces bass very well, better than a lot of amps that have damping factors far greater.
NO if you can solder VH Audio for example sells the very best purity Litz a OCC Copper and porous thin Teflon wire around. loudspeaker, or Interconnect , WBT, or Furutech connectors . email Chris . I have compared them to $2k cables no BS the proof is in the-listening, he also will finish them for $2-400 depending on interconnect or Loudspeaker cables , the loudspeaker cable is not listed you need to inquire. esoteric $$ cables are maybe a bit better if you have several $$k more to spend . I personally don’t have $10k for-interconnects and a 6 ft pair of Speaker cables.
For your say: "
Power cords have one purpose: deliver 120 volts a few feet from a wall outlet".
In my country as well as in many other, its 230V @ 50Hz. Power cables are tested as so:
Take that "super expensive and fancy" new power cable and exchange with it, your kitchen kettle cord. Boil some water and make yourself a cup of tea. If that taste any better than the one you made with the original cable ($ 1.50), than the
"super expensive and fancy" worth its weight in gold! But if not, it worth just as much as $ 1.50...
I just put a Michelin Pilot Super Sport low Profile tire on my wheelbarrow and it didn‘t make any difference to its performance at all. What a con ! All expensive tires are snake oil.
I find that hard to believe. What pressure are you running?
All you car nuts are just the same - refusing to accept the reality that a set of Walmart Bridgestones will perform just as well as a your fancy low profile European imports.
Geometry, purity, gauge, network box, direction, coating/dielectric, termination, damping........one pill makes you larger and one pill makes you small, and the ones that mother gives you, don't do anything at all - it all makes a bit of difference but not anywhere near as much as the marketing department would have you believe. However, a good marketing department leads to a happy accounting department.
Could you believe, that such a marketing really works? after all, it's just some snake oil. No evidence, No spec. No measurement results, Nothing! If accounting is happy, consumer is stupid and well ripped off.. By Albert Einstein, only stupidity is infinite.
I was auditioning some speakers in a shop. A man joined me. After 5 mins he said he had that sound. The salesman asked what system he had - he said “Sony boom box.” Go figure.
Mr.
madcow Sorry to ruin your sales. COVID-19 and now me... Bad economy. Even President Trump dislikes it.
But there is no difference in a PC whatever is the task that the electricity on the other end does. If you think otherwise, keep salling power cables with snake oil and way overpriced. You are still miles away from the truth. You make a living by deceiving people, and sale them nothing for plenty of $. There are names for that in the English language.
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