Are audiophiles still out of their minds?
facten561 posts06-13-2016 9:40pmdracule1 - too each his own, you spend your money on what you find works for you and let others spend theirs as suits their needs. facten, You normally make very thoughtful posts but your logic in this case is lost on me. Under your approach, how would Drac work on his self-image? There is little here about cables? Nothing else explain this insanity. |
JMc, Who are you quoting? Not me I think I don’t recall ever saying anyone specifically spent too much money. It’s completely up to them what they choose to buy obviously. I am supporting the argument in general though that there may be less expensive alternatives to some more expensive products that may perform as well or better. That’s good news for those on a limited budget and for the audio industry that might like to have more potential customers. . For those who are not, price does not matter and I’m sure their wires sound great. I’ve heard some very good systems with some very expensive wires. I did say God bless everyone who is happy with their music. What else can I say there? Does this then make some people "out of their mind" as proposed? That’s strictly a judgement call that can’t be controlled, but it should not bother those who knowingly arrived wherever they are and are happy being there. Trying to be rational about it. Of course one could always turn to good quality pro audio wires and avoid the high end audio murk altogether, but that's another story....
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dracule1 " I buy based on what sounds good to me within my means" So the question then to you is why do you demean the purchasing decisions of others that do likewise but at a different price point? " So if you’re loking down on me because I can’t afford some of the rediculously priced items you can afford" . Not sure I've read anyone looking down on you, rather they are taking a different position that you can't seem to get over. What difference does it really make to you if folkfreak or anyone else is in a position to possibly spend more on cables than either you can or choose too? If you think for instance that Signal Cables does the trick for you great; I've had them in my system and they were "okay" at best so I replaced them. So what! " People like you who can afford expensive........... have lost touch with people of lesser means". Come on man, if someone can afford to spend more than you or someone else they shouldn't? Sounds like sour grapes |
We're all as mad as hatters regarding this tinker. If one's budget has the bandwidth to accomodate expensive equipment, or cabling -more power to you. (Wow, there's a couple of unintended associated references...) I've been disappointed by a few of my gear purchases over the years but I've yet to utterly regret any I've made. As I've moved up the proverbial food chain I've experienced "wow" moments and "wtf?" moments alike, neither necessarily derived from the dollars spent. This thread has wandered way off course... We're nuts. Period. |
mapman13,395 posts06-13-2016 10:31pm It’s called having a rational discussion. Sorry mapman, if you are looking for a rational discussion, you took a wrong turn somewhere. You’re lost, no rational here. "You spent too much" "No I didn’t" "You spent too much" ’No I didn’t" Sounds more like a domestic dispute to me. Different thread, same old song and dance. ;^) |
Frankly, I have no issues with those who place "an extreme premium on getting a deal" because that’s the only way some people can afford things that are normally out of there reach. People like you who can afford expensive sports cars, mechanical watches, jewelry for the wife, first edition books, dCS gear, Odin cables have lost touch with people of lesser means. You’re failed trickle down economic theory of "if I’m rich and spend money, the little people will benefit" pretty much says it all. This reminds me why I don’t hang around with the filthy rich. |
Oops, I’m not up to date pricing on BNC cables for digital gear. My bad. For that my apologies. It would be helpful if you put the pricing in your original comment. After all, this is about pricing of cables. You can’t automatically assume we know the prices of all your cables. I was concentrating more on your other cables, but again it would help if you list what you paid for them. I know some are expensive as hell. But boy, you’re really reading into my comments for things that weren’t implied. I have my own taste, just as you have yours. If you thought that my opinion on what sounds more realistic to me as being superior to your opinion, then you got some inferiority complex to deal with. For this, I owe no apology. If you have no issues with 100:1 markup, then good for you. Most of us do because we’re not filthy rich. So because I like affordable cables I’m looking for an extreme deal? These cables I buy are not discounted, and I pay the retail price because they're affordable. So I’m cheap scraping at the bottom of the barrel for the best deal? Here is where you’re coming off sounding like a complete douche. I buy based on what sounds good to me within my means. Some are expensive and some aren’t. Some I pay full retail, some I don’t. So if you’re looking down on me because I can’t afford some of the rediculously priced items you can afford, then we all know you’re the kind of audiophile that gives a bad rap to the audiophile community. |
Ok dracule1 -- for one last time let’s deconstruct your response and hopefully 😕 help you understand how you come across It’s just not what I call realistic based on my experience as a regular concert attendee of classical and jazz music and as a classical guitar player.Implication -- I’m the only one that knows what "real music" sounds like, my ears are better than yours, your opinion is worthless. Note that your original ding at DCS was BTW, dCS equipment never sounded correct to my ears. No amount of cabling can correct what I consider is inherent flaw."Never sounded correct to my ears" is fine, we each have preferences but you had to add "inherent flaw" which is an absolute statement and comes across as pejorative Getting back to the important subject at hand, you didn’t answer my original question.Sorry, how was it not clear when I described my process in a DCS rig of going from the "free" BNC and Firewire included in the box, to a $500 AQ Eagle Eye, to $1000 Valhalla (bought used), to $2000 AQ Wild to $3000 Transparent Ref XL. A good cross section of manufacturers and price points all with the same equipment and improvements at every step that were obvious. Could I have found other cables that worked? Maybe, but as others have noted my time is valuable and the combination of dealer recommendations (Brian Berdan) and manufacturer recommendations (John Quick) led me to the Transparent. Same story on the other sorts of cables in my system, especially power cords where I’ve been amazed by the improvements that have been possible. If you were wise with your moneyAnother insult for no reason. I also spend money on mechanical watches ... and I like to buy my wife jewelry and first edition books, would you like to criticize that as well? I did and saved tens of thousands of dollars over the years.Bully for you. I’ve wasted way more money than my cables cost buying a new sports car and seeing it depreciate .. so what, who cares? At the end of the day every $ we spend helps someone else make a living, isn’t that a good thing, called capitalism? Spend money and feel happy, otherwise I think we have something called a recession. Some of these cables you’ve tried have some of the highest markups in the industry. According to my industry source, it can be as high as 10:1.Seems you don’t understand pricing theory, Dealer markup, manufacturers cost are all irrelevant -- what matters is price:value for the end buyer everything else is irrelevant. As it is apparent you as an end user place an extreme premium on "getting a deal". Have you never purchased software? What do you think that costs to make? As a consultant for the pharma industry I have a pretty good handle on the complexities of pricing and personally have no issue with the same manufacturer having a markup of 2:1 on their cheapest cable and 100:1 on their top of line, the latter will sell in tiny quantities relative to the former and btw the ads (and the trickle down from the positive feedback on the top of line) drives sales of the former. Plus I appreciate the dealer service I get. This is the same in every industry so why do we get so bothered? If you feel happy with you’re purchase knowing what I’ve told you, then oh wellThis just about takes the cake -- Dracule the savior here to tell it as it is. It's great you help people find bargains and different lines to consider but why do you have to be so holier than thou in the process? Oh and by the way I, like you, trust my ears at the end of the day and am very happy with my system. A quick review of my other posts show the small adjustments and tweaks I enjoy to get the most out of it, cables are part and not by any means the most important (acoustics and isolation matter more) but making those small changes whether they cost $1 or $10K is all part of the fun and fun is what it should be, not winning arguments so on that note this audiophile will exeunt this thread and return it to the OP |
Inna, why wouldn’t you try a $300 cable? Just because of the price you’re assuming it wouldn’t sound good? IME, that is one of the biggest fallacies in high end. I gave it a try and found cables in this price range competing with cables 10 to 20x the price. These are audio cables, not speakers or amplifiers that require in depth knowledge of electronics and physics, although some cable manufacturers will argue otherwise. It doesn’t take a genius to come up with great sounding cables. But it does take a marketing genius to convince audiophiles to buy mega buck cables - Oh wait, I take that back. |
Folkfreak, don’t be so sensitive. I didn’t lambast the dCS. It’s just not what I call realistic based on my experience as a regular concert attendee of classical and jazz music and as a classical guitar player. I love my Golden Gate DAC, but you will likely hate it because it’s the antithesis of the dCS. But I wouldn’t care if you lambasted the GG because we obviously have different tastes in what music should sound like. Nordost SPM? Remember the original van den hul D102 IC from the 80s? I think I got you beat. Getting back to the important subject at hand, you didn’t answer my original question. Did you compare your expensive cables to the cables in the $300-$2000 range? My guess is you have not. I have heard the top of the line offerings from Nordost, Transparent, Audioquest, MIT, etc. While some are very good, just as good or better cables can be found for a lot less depending on your system. A big chunk of the cost of these megabuck cables goes into advertising, but I’m assuming you know this if you’re a seasoned audiophile. If you were wise with your money, wouldn’t you have given these "lesser" cables from less known manufacturers a chance? I did and saved tens of thousands of dollars over the years. As for cable dealers working hard for a sale, I can assure you he hit the proverbial jackpot when he sold you those Odins even after losing $900, which btw is his own fault for not paying attention. Some of these cables you’ve tried have some of the highest markups in the industry. He probably made more by selling a pair of Odins than selling many of his speakers or electronics. According to my industry sources, the markup of some of these cables can be as high as 10:1. If you feel happy with you’re purchase knowing what I’ve told you, then oh well. |
If I had $50k speakers and $35k amps I would still compare $2k speaker cables to $10k cables, so I think this point is valid. But I would not try $300 cable. Let's not exaggerate both sides of the argument. Really good Hi-Fi is expensive and has the right to be but it doesn't have to be ridiculously expensive. I never touch both Nordost and Audioquest, by the way, price no object. |
mapman13,395 posts06-13-2016 9:31pmJoecasey it's pretty simple really. It's called having a rational discussion. Personal attacks are the thing not called for. Ya Joe Casey no personal attacks. Feel free to call people "fools, gullible, crazy, dumb, brain-washed, audio-fools, suckers and retarded" like the OP does but NO personal attacks or you are gunna get a woopin. |
dracule 1, OK, I'll try to be reasonable but hard to do so when your response to my polite posting is to immediately lambast my choice of digital equipment. Perhaps you've never heard DCS gear with the best cabling 😏 And yes I have evolved in the current system. Some examples Digital: Veloce Black Cat -> Nordost Valhalla -> Audioquest Eagle Eye -> AudioQuest Wild -> Transparent Reference XL (note that these are not all increases in price, it went up and down) Analog Interconnect: Nordost Tyr -> Nordost Valhalla -> WEL Signature (big jump at the end I know but I got a great deal on a 10M length of the latter which I needed and the impact was amazing) Speaker: Nordost SPM (yes I've been around this game for a while!) -> Nordost Valhalla -> Synergistic Galileo LE (as you can see I can keep cables for 10-20 years) Power: Nordost Brahma -> Valhalla -> AQ WEL Signature -> Synergistic Galileo LE jafant -- re auditioning and your point dracule about most $$ is not best, most recent big change was speaker cable. Three local dealers allowed me home demo on Nordost Odin V1 ($35K), AQ WEL Signature (a bi-wire pair no less at $75K!) and SR Galileo LE at $15K. WEL was flat and boring, Odin was very clean but slightly lean and Galileo was just right. Subsequently I've improved the performance of the Galileo by adding a SR Transporter, nice that you can make a cable sound even better So dracule we folks with money are not stupid as you constantly imply, we care about sound and want value for money but unlike some commenters on this thread we are open minded and happy for all the help the helpful people on these boards and the dealers we work with give us. Side note the dealer who loaned me the Odin actually lost $900 out of pocket as he accidentally put through my AmEx charge and then had to reverse it, for those who think dealers don't have to work for their money it's a salutary tale |
Drac, You remind me of the guidance I received from a mentor as a young man. He always counseled his colleagues to treat those lacking knowledge with respect as most are good people doing the best they can in life, but always be mindful of people lacking knowledge to such an extreme degree that they do not recognize they lack knowledge. They are the dangerous ones. Through that deficiency into the mix with the pathology of a child that was incessantly beat-up on the playground as a grade-schooler and threads like this get started. |
Jafant, there are a lot in this range with some starting below $100. And like I said cabling is highly system dependent, and the only way you’ll find out if it’s good for you is to try it out in your system. Some of the manufactures I can recommend are dB Audio Labs (USB cable), Signal Cable (ICs and speaker cables), DH Labs (power cord), Grover Huffman (ICs), Triode Wire labs (power cord), Ridge Street Audio (sorry defunct but you may find used), Kaplan Cable (now Waveform Fidelity), Reality Cable, etc. Don’t let the affordable price fool you. Most of these manufacturers will give you a free in home trial, which is critical. Good luck. |
Folkfreak, have you ever tried cables in the $300 to $2000 range instead of $15k to $70k range? Or did you consider cables in this range below what you would consider given your expensive system? You stated cables sound different, which I agree with, and are system dependent, which I also agree with. Wouldn’t you have saved tons by trying out these affordable cables that may sound just as good or even better if you gave them a chance? The problem with many audiophiles who own expensive speakers and electronics is that they seem to be compelled to buy mega expensive cables to justify their expensive gear. They think you have to buy expensive cables because only expensive cables can bring out the best in their gear. At one point, I thought this way, and so I auditioned many of these overhyped cables and compared them affordable cables many rich audiophiles would never consider. Guess what? There’s no consistent correlation between cable price and good sound. Some of these expensive cables sound very high fi that gets your attentention with too much detail, huge diffuse sound stage, etc and in the long run tiring to listen to. And the worse thing you can do is buy expensive cables based on audiomag reviews, but many do without ever comparing them to affordable cables. BTW, dCS equipment never sounded correct to my ears. No amount of cabling can correct what I consider is inherent flaw. |
folkfreak, I get it and it's nice that you explained why you purchased expensive cables. If I had the money I would. I don't understand why people are so quick to judge others and name call. What I get out of this thread is for me to be more humble. In the future when I respond to threads I will never say, product "A" is better than product "B", but simply state my preference and why. |
I thought the OP might actually benefit from hearing from someone who has quite rationally decided to spend >$10K on a piece of wire and >$100K on all the cables in my system Firstly anyone with any sort of listening experience can appreciate that cables do sound different (note not necessarily better or worse, just different). If you doubt this then using anything other than the manufacturer's stock is a complete waste of time for you. In the case of my most expensive cable purchase (8' speaker connection) I listened to wires between $15K and $70K and chose the cheapest, it sounded best to me in my system and, surprise surprise it also seemed best "value for money" Secondly the simple "either/or" of cables or other spending on other items such as room treatment or component upgrades is bogus. At this level of spending you should be using extensive and carefully selected room treatment - acoustic treatment, cables and isolation (stands, footers etc.) As an aside don't you hate the glamor shots of one NYC dealer who shall remain nameless who parades installs of multi $100K systems into NY apartments with acres of glass and bare walls and no treatment in sight? Most importantly the comparison of cable vs component upgrade is equally bogus. The reality is components at this level and up (and arguably at all levels) demonstrate the incremental improvements the right cables and other accessories can deliver. To give a specific example a DCS Paganini stack ($50K) sounds great out of the box with the stock cables but over the years I have spent $30K+ on BNC, AES/EBU and Power Cords all with great benefit -- and still have other steps to make. Yes I could have gotten a Vivaldi DAC for the same spend but each incremental step gave benefits I could hear and enjoy, and all of the cables are transferable if/when I do get that Vivaldi. So in conclusion for me at least cable upgrades do give valid returns in the context of an appropriately set up system especially as they meaningful improvements at relatively low per unit incremental cost - often much less than a comparable component upgrade (especially if cables are bought in the secondary market or at deep discount dealer demo as the majority of mine were) |
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Mapman, "It just seems sillier when people spend large sums of cash on things to solve a relatively simple problem that might have been solved just as well or maybe even better perhaps for less." Very well said. This was what I was pointing out in my original post. There's more to be gained, for example, from simple affordable room treatments than any expensive cable can provide. |
Price should never be the determining factor for what one buys other than to stay in budget as needed. Wires are no exception. It just seems sillier when people spend large sums of cash on things to solve a relatively simple problem that might have been solved just as well or maybe even better perhaps for less. |
Still, I don't buy Levi's jeans, I buy vintage Diesel and Dior on ebay. And I never actually tried $3k wine, I tried something close to $1k but I didn't pay for it, it was a gift, and the one who gave it to me didn't pay all that much. That Bordeaux vintage was great, can't compare it to your usual $100 bottles. |
If the whole world is out of mind why shouldn't audiophiles be? Personally, I save on many other things to be able to buy good audio stuff. So $10k for cables is insanity, and $1k for a dinner for two is not? $3k for a bottle of lovely French wine, anyone? Not me, I'd rather go with $10k cables if I have to. |
dracule1 OP 914 posts 06-13-2016 11:04am "Geoff, how many times have you stuck your foot in your mouth by not paying attention to my words or twisting my words to fit your argument? Now you’re changing the subject cuz you got nothing. Give it up. You’re boring me." So, you’re mad because someone somewhere, at least according to you, spent $100K on cables, which I actually doubt. Your whole thesis is that it’s stupid to spend a lot of money on cables because there is no significant difference in sound quality between relatively inexpensive cables and super expensive cables. Yet you seem to be gracefully backing off that position by agreeing that there are, according to blind tests you provided, significant differences among cables, even when the "expensive" cables involved in the test are only $1K. You got some ’splainin’ to do. I’m not twisting your words. Those are your words. I don’t have to twist them. They are what they are. This all appears to be nothing more than a bad case of buyer's remorse. Heck, you're complaining about $2K cables. One can only imagine what this would be like if you had spent say $20K on the cables. Real scary. :-) |
The forum is for intelligent advice! Then why are you here pennsy? You've shown no ability to provide any advice. Spelling isn't your only problem, you struggle with grammar as well. Hopefully, English is not your first language. If it is, you write at a 3rd grade level. Just because you suck up to and agree with the OP does not make you right. That is the fun part of cable debates, nobody wins, nobody loses. The wheel just goes round and round. I've been watching this debate spin for decades now. You have brought nothing new to the table, besides your petty bitterness towards me. All you are doing is pissing in the wind. Enjoy!! |
dracule1 OP 913 posts 06-13-2016 9:17am "Geoffkait, no wiggling needed. You even quoted me, in which I clearly stated that I never claimed there is no difference in cable sound, and no test is perfect. I even stated cables can make a difference in sound in my original post. Was I not clear enough? And why only bring up the Minnesota test and not the others? Cherry picking are we?" unless everyone agrees on terms such as "ridiculously expensive" and "significantly better" there will never we any resolution. Besides what percentage of audiophiles actually spend $100K or more on cables? What percentage spends $10K or more on cables? If you don't know say you don't know. Pardon me for saying so but your angst and disgust, if real, seems kind of like a tempest in a teapot. geoff kait machina dramatica |
dracule1 OP 912 posts 06-13-2016 9:56am "Geoff, I have no problem presenting both sides of the argument if need be. I put the link of the Minnesota test on purpose. I thought you would realize that. So much for trying to give you some credit." Interesting strategy. Providing evidence that helps the other side. Hmmmmmm... ;-) |
Pennsy, there are so many reasonably priced cables to experiment with in your system that will give the sound you’re looking for without having to pay outrageous prices of these overhyped and overmarketed snake oil cables (like the one starting with an N 😏). And most of these reasonably priced cables come with money back guarantee. Sorry to hear you had to spend that much to gain wisdom. Hopefully, others can gain from your experience. BTW, your posts are entertaining as heck, spelling errors and all. 👍🏻😂 |
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Dracule1: find your anilitical approach spot on! Price does not always quarantee better performance! Absolutely in the headphone industry !!! Cables can provide better sonic return but are the incremental increases vs price worth it!! In most cases no!!! Found cardas clear line of cables very impressive! Money for them pretty outrages!! If someone attacks this, well 80000 spent on a system does bring wisdom!! |
Geoffkait, no wiggling needed. You even quoted me, in which I clearly stated that I never claimed there is no difference in cable sound, and no test is perfect. I even stated cables can make a difference in sound in my original post. Was I not clear enough? And why only bring up the Minnesota test and not the others? Cherry picking are we? |
dracule1 OP 907 posts 06-12-2016 11:05pm "Here are links to blinded tests. No test is perfect, but it’s better than just believing there’s a difference without evidence or even worse believing in the manufacturer claims. I never claimed there is no difference in cable sound. I just think the pricing has gone to the ridiculously extreme. The first link is the most comprehensive I’ve found. Eat your heart out Geoffkait." Dracule, thanks for the links to blind testing of cables. But I’m a little confused since the summary of testing provided in the second link (see summary below) appears to clearly undermine your entire position. One wonders how in the world are you going to wiggle out of this one? Oh, I know, you’re going to say you actually thought there are significant differences in cables all along. The following points of interest are from the Minnesota blind cable testing: Points of Interest Regarding the Questionnaire: - Seven listeners initially indicated that speaker cables do not make a significant difference, then changed their decision after the test. - One listener initially indicated that speaker cables do make a significant difference, then changed that decision after the test. - The term “significant difference” was left open for interpretation. Tootles, Geoff Kait machina dynamica we do artificial atoms right |
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Well this may be the dumbest thing I have done in a while but its a lazy Sunday and I am bored so what the heck, I will have a bit more of Drac's luscious troll bait. dracule1 OP905 posts06-11-2016 3:56pmFirst, you claimed $100k for cabling is considered cheap to some. Now you revised that to $20k. That’s factor of 5 differential. Either way it’s ridiculous, but be consistent in your argument. Whether $100K or $20K cables really isn't the issue. My point is people have different views about value based on their personal economic conditions and life philosophy. I have no issue with someone believing or not believing in the benefits of cables or any other product for that matter. That is their prerogative and I respect it completely. What I do not respect is someone using words like "fool, gullible, crazy, dumb, brain-washed, audio-fool, sucker and retarded" to describe other people strictly because their view of the value of a dollar is different than theirs. You claim time is more valuable than the cost differential. To a few that may be true, but I guarantee you that for 99.999999999% of the population, spending $100k for wires for an audio system is incomprehensible. Actually last count there where around about 70,000 people in the USA worth more than $30 million and 14,000 who are worth more than $100 million; by your math every last one of these people would consider such a purchase "incomprehensible." Maybe this lack of capacity for seeing the big picture generally and inability to do simple math specifically that explains a lot about your posts. You can use whatever permutation you like to justify your purchase, but you’re coming off like a person born with a silver spoon in his mouth. I guess it’s easy to convince yourself of your delusion when you can afford Soluution electronics with your Raidho D3. The fact that you don’t want to reveal what cabling you have in you’re system says a lot. It may have everything to do with why you were compelled to comment. You were offended that I called people who spend tens of thousands on cables suckers. Do you fall into this category? I am not interested in justifying my purchases to anyone but myself. I assure I am completely satisfied with my system and would happily purchase each piece again. I am happy to "reveal" my cables. I did not do so because I don't typically wave my system's details in front of people to prove something. On the other hand, I certainly would not hide my system because of the kinda nonsense you spew. My analog wires are Nordost and my power wires are Furutech. Could I get the same thing or something better for a different price both more or less---of course I could; not to think so would be silly. However, I would never criticize another person for spending more or less. Oh, and let me give you some background on my silver spoon. I grew up in a lower-class-income family of 8; I have never received a dime of inheritance; and I have personally earned every penny I spend. Maybe that's why I respect the rights of others to spend their money as they see fit. Like I said, everyone who got into high end at one point was a sucker, including myself. No shame in that. And I get the distinct feeling I’ve been in this hobby almost as long as you’ve been alive.Ummm, I am old as dirt so I hate to think about your annual Geritol bill. Good thing you don't need cables. So in the end, we have a difference in opinion. You think it’s justifiable to spend $100k on wire. I don’t. If you think I’m ignorant because of that, then there are a lot more who belive you're ignorant for justifying spending a down payment on a house for audio wire. Here is where you need take some of the Ritalin you mock others about and pay closer attention. I definitely think you are ignorant but NOT because you do not think it is justifiable to spend $100k on cable. That would be me behaving like you. I think you are ignorant because you belittle people who think it is justifiable to spend $100K on cable. You haven't the slightest clue about their condition and yet you are incessantly demeaning. Thats messed up dude. |
Here are links to blinded tests. No test is perfect, but it’s better than just believing there’s a difference without evidence or even worse believing in the manufacturer claims. I never claimed there is no difference in cable sound. I just think the pricing has gone to the ridiculously extreme. The first link is the most comprehensive I’ve found. Eat your heart out Geoffkait. http://www.head-fi.org/t/486598/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths http://www.stereophile.com/content/minnesota-audio-society-conducts-cable-comparison-tests-0#LyBXQZi... |
